S&B Short Dot Models Explained.

[VA_Dinger]

To avoid further confusion about the various Short Dot models:

Disclaimer: I do not consider myself to be a Short Dot expert but I do understand this much though.



1.1–4 x 20 CQB Short Dot (Gen I)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/ShortDotGenI.jpg

This is the first generation of the Short Dot. It has non-locking turrets and comes standard with changeable BDC cams for 5.56mm M855 & 75 gr. Hornady and .308 M118LR 16” & 20”.

1.1–4 x 20 CQB Short Dot (Gen II)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/untitled-1.jpg

This is the newer version of the original Short Dot. It has the self-locking adjustment turrets. It comes standard with your choice of a M855 or M1118LR BDC cam.

- Both are first focal plane with 20mm objective lenses.

- The easiest way to tell the difference between the two models is to look for the taller/longer adjustment knobs found on the genII.

Both can be ordered with either the CQB or #7 reticles .

CQB:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/SBCQBreticle.jpg

#7:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-7FlashDot.jpg


The new Short Dot II is actually called the “S&B 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE” in the U.S.

- I could not find an actual picture of it.

It differs from the original Short Dot’s in many ways:
- 2nd Focal Plane
- 24mm objective lense
- Spare battery cap replaces the locking windage turret.
- It's slightly over a 1/2" longer because it’s based on the 1.1-4x S&B Zenith line
- Available in the #2, #7, and #9 reticles.
- Supposedly $100 cheaper.

S&B FD2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-2FlashDot.gif
S&B FD7:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-7FlashDot.jpg
S&B FD9:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v74/va_dinger/No_-9FlashDot.gif

[VA_Dinger]

I figured it was best to just make this info a sticky considering I still see guys getting confused over the different Short Dot models.

This info seemed to have gotten lost in the big "1-4 Variable Optic Options" thread.

[Tuukka]

Here is a picture of the new Short Dot II, this one has the FD7 reticle.

http://www.aseutra.fi/english/product/HK416_S&B_Short_Dot_II.JPG

[abnartyguy]

A short dot on a ?? upper and an H&K Lower? Interesting blaster! later!
-ZM

[HKPRO]

A short dot on a ?? upper and an H&K Lower? Interesting blaster! later!
-ZM

Er, how about an HK upper on an HK lower? :rolleyes:

[Tuukka]

Yes, it is a factory HK416.

[GRSC]

Would anyone be interested in a Short Dot with the GRSC M4-62 reticle?

[UPSguy]

Would anyone be interested in a Short Dot with the GRSC M4-62 reticle?You are asking this in a lot of threads so please forgive me for answering in more than one of them. I wouldn't and for the very same reasons I didn't end up liking the Meopta Kdot reticle. I wanted an Aimpoint bright dot combined with crosshairs.

That being said, what are your thoughts here. Are you thinking your reticle with the bright S&B dot, or your reticle as presently illuminated in a Short Dot?

[davemcdonald]

I think it would be interesting and worth trying but I wouldn't replace my FD7.

Dave

[Army Chief]

I too opted for FD7, though I didn't pick up the Short Dot model, per se.

The Gen II Short Dot that we tend to be most concerned with (locking turrets, CQB reticle) is the specialized PM II variant, but if you're navigating your way through the Schmidt & Bender web site, or perusing their catalog, that distinction is likely to be less than clear. The reason for this is that the Short Dot is closely related to -- and in some sense derived from -- the regular "Zenith" FlashDot line, which includes 1.1-4 x 24mm, 1.5-6x42mm, 2.5-10x56mm and 3-12x50mm variants. Thus, there is more than one Short Dot model on the market, and the distinctions from one to the next can actually be quite subtle.

Although I had some non-AR applications in mind when I made my purchase decision, I have found the Zenith FlashDot 1.5-6x42mm (non-PM II) to be an astonishingly versatile piece of glass that offers most of the advantages of the Short Dot with significantly more distance precision and light-gathering capability. I'm not suggesting this is the way to go for everyone, but for those who are drawn to the Short Dot concept, but are wishing for something with just a bit more headroom, the 1.5-6x42mm Zenith may actually be worth looking into.

Chief

[Snake]

any word on when or if S&B is gonna bring the Zenith LE out with the CQB reticle?

Cyrus

[Snake]

I went on Schmidt & Bender's german website and noticed that they sell the Zenith LE with the CQB reticle. How come we don't have it yet?

[RAM Engineer]

Does anyone know which S&B Part Numbers go with which Short Dot model? I was trying to navigate SWFA's website, with minimal luck.

I can't tell if the "Short Dot II" ("Zenith Short Dot LE") is in the PMII line or the Zenith line.

This is what I'm guessing so far:

Police Marksman II line:

9467 - 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (Gen I) w/ Flashdot#7 reticle (illum.)
946SDL - 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (Gen II) w/ Short Dot "CQB" reticle
946SD - 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (Gen I) w/ Short Dot "CQB" reticle

9762 - 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE (Short Dot II) w/ Flashdot#2 reticle (illum.)
9767 - 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE (Short Dot II) w/ Flashdot#7 reticle (illum.)
9769 - 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE (Short Dot II) w/ Flashdot#9 reticle (illum.)

Zenith line:

9767Z - 1.1-4x24 Zenith w/ #7 reticle (non-illum.)
976L7Z - 1.1-4x24 Zenith w/ Flashdot#7 reticle (illum.)
976L9Z - 1.1-4x24 Zenith w/ Flashdot#9 reticle (illum.)

Is this pretty close? What are the differences between the 9767 and the 976L7Z, for instance?

[VA_Dinger]

Does anyone know which S&B Part Numbers go with which Short Dot model? I was trying to navigate SWFA's website, with minimal luck.

Yeah their website is confusing.



I can't tell if the "Short Dot II" ("Zenith Short Dot LE") is in the PMII line or the Zenith line.

The new Short Dot II / Short Dot LE are part of the PMII line. Even though they are based off the Zenith 1.1-4x24 line of scopes.



Police Marksman II line:

9467 - 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (Gen I) w/ Flashdot#7 reticle (illum.)
946SDL - 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (Gen II) w/ Short Dot "CQB" reticle
946SD - 1.1-4x20 Short Dot (Gen I) w/ Short Dot "CQB" reticle

These are the originals. The differences between the Gen I & Gen II are listed above.



9762 - 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE (Short Dot II) w/ Flashdot#2 reticle (illum.)
9767 - 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE (Short Dot II) w/ Flashdot#7 reticle (illum.)
9769 - 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE (Short Dot II) w/ Flashdot#9 reticle (illum.)

These are the newest versions. The X24 is the tell tale. The original Gen I & Gen II models are all 1.1-4x20.

The easy way to remember and spot them:

S&B PMII

Original Short Dot Gen I & Gen II:
1.1-4x20

Short Dot II / Short Dot LE
1.1-4x24

[Snake]

Here's part of a e-mail I got back from Mark Cromwell at S&B asking about the Zenith LE with the CQB reticle.

"As you know the 1.1-4x24 Zenith is a second focal plane scope and
Germany has been telling me they had issues with installing a ranging
style reticle into this scope as the reticle spacing would not hold true
throughout the power range like it does in the first focal plane
1.1-4x20 Short Dot's. We have wanted a ranging reticle but could not
decide on the proper one as there are several people who dislike the
"CQB" reticle. We were thinking of a mil-dot style at one point."

Cyrus

[TDB7117]

Although I had some non-AR applications in mind when I made my purchase decision, I have found the Zenith FlashDot 1.5-6x42mm (non-PM II) to be an astonishingly versatile piece of glass that offers most of the advantages of the Short Dot with significantly more distance precision and light-gathering capability. I'm not suggesting this is the way to go for everyone, but for those who are drawn to the Short Dot concept, but are wishing for something with just a bit more headroom, the 1.5-6x42mm Zenith may actually be worth looking into.

Chief

Tell me more! Is it the same daylight visable red dot as the 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE? Can this scope be used with both eyes open? If so, is there much distortion at 1.5X? Does it have the same locking turrets? What about the BDC?

Thanks

[Army Chief]

I guess there are both subjective and objective questions being raised here, so let me deal first with the facts.

The entire Zenith line is available with the same visible red dot used on the ShortDot, which is referred to as the "FlashDot" in S&B parlance. The same reticles are generally available, with the exception of the CQB-dedicated variant. Functionally, the two models in question here are more alike than they are different, though some of the PM-II line touches (notably, locking turrets) are absent on the regular Zenith line models.

Objectively, there are measurable field of view differences, as you might expect, but these are slight in actual usage -- and I consider them a small price to pay for a bit more top end magnification capability. Distortion at 1.5 is a more subjective thing, and my answer may not be very instructive. In using the scope with both eyes open (which is easily done, as this is a perfect fast-acquisition drive hunt optic according to the German definition), there is some obvious disparity, but S&B glass clarity is so uniformly excellent that I would hesitate to call any of this "distortion."

Ultimately, I would describe the ShortDot as a very capable, uniformly excellent mission-optimized optic. The Zenith 1.5-6x42 offers the same basic features, clarity and build quality, with somewhat broader applicability to non-CQB applications. One might level the charge that in making such an observation, I'm missing the whole point of the ShortDot, and to some degree that is likely true. That said, my needs were not quite so homogenous, and the Zenith delivers in areas where the ShortDot cannot; especially at lower light levels (since I'm not switching to NVDs away from the job) and at somewhat greater distances (since my over-40 eyes appreciate the extra 2x). Given the same technology, same superior glass, and same reticle/dot possibilities as the ShortDot, I'm just not sure how one can find much fault with the larger Zeniths.

Chief

[TDB7117]

Thanks for the excellent response.

Now my question would be for those that have the 1.1-4x24 Short Dot. Why do they have such a small objective lens diameter? Their twilight factor is only (3.5/8.9). How do they really perform in lowlight?

[pstrauss]

Is it possible to mount the S&B short dot in-line with a mounted night vision device like the PVS-14?

[Molon]

Here's a few more pics of the Short Dot II (1.1 - 4 x 24mm Zenith Short Dot LE.)


http://www.box.net/shared/static/479knapf4z.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/tfth5g56ko.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/kiuorhmpk5.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/6u5msimk07.jpg






http://www.box.net/shared/static/xdytghfcad.jpg

[pstrauss]

That thing looks great. Do you have any pics of the left side?

Phil

[Molon]

Here you go.

http://www.box.net/shared/static/gfudirsuq4.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/65p771y186.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/e5u60casbg.jpg

[Tuukka]

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/S_B_Short_Dot_II.JPG

[vicious_cb]

How about some pics of the reticles? Does the #7 reticle have stadia lines like the CQB?

[Army Chief]

No, it does not. The #7 is an extremely simple wide/fine crosshair combination that provides fast acquisition, but no ranging stadia.

http://schmidtbender.com/images/reticles/No.-7FlashDot.gif

AC

[snakedocter]

The new LE versions has 24mm Obj. and bigger FOV

[singlestack]

so which one is better? 1.1-4x20 Short Dot with locking turrets or the new 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE? BTW, I got the names from Schmidtbender.com. Never knew that there is a Zenith Short Dot. I always thought that Zenith and Short Dot were different models in the SB product lineup.

[Molon]

so which one is better? 1.1-4x20 Short Dot with locking turrets or the new 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE? BTW, I got the names from Schmidtbender.com. Never knew that there is a Zenith Short Dot. I always thought that Zenith and Short Dot were different models in the SB product lineup.


The Zenith Short Dot LE is a major improvement over the earlier Short Dots. The Zenith scopes are a different product line from the Short Dots (though obviously the products are very similar.)

[singlestack]

I came upon schmidtundbender.de and saw PM 1.1-4x24 Short Dot LE. I noticed the specs are not the same as schmidtbender.com's 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE. Aren't both scopes supposed to be the same? Reticle for the German SD is CQB while American SD are FD2 and FD7.

Google translated link for the German SD:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://www.schmidtundbender.de/pm/1-1-4x24-pm-short-dot-le-3.html&prev=hp&rurl=translate.google.com

Also, what is the difference between the 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE and Zenith 1.1-4x24?

[trukreltrog]

The Zenith Short Dot LE is a major improvement over the earlier Short Dots. The Zenith scopes are a different product line from the Short Dots (though obviously the products are very similar.)

So is this the general consensus? If your gonna spend the $$$$, the Zenith should be considered over the older versions? Thanks,,,:)

[pstrauss]

Does anybody know anything about the coming 1-8 Short Dots? Worth waiting for?
I'm curious how things like eye relief and field of view will be affected.

[samblount]

Delete

[Molon]

How about some pics of the reticles? Does the #7 reticle have stadia lines like the CQB?


http://www.box.net/shared/static/y2djx5630q.jpg



http://www.box.net/shared/static/slju53vq6o.jpg



http://www.box.net/shared/static/hbpuda4sk1.jpg

[RAM Engineer]

Does anyone know why they didn't put the mil-dots in the new(er) Zenith Short Dot LE? Would I miss having the mil-dots if I put the scope on a 0-400 yd 16" AR?

I'm trying to decide between a older Short Dot and the Zenith Short Dot LE, in case that wasn't obvious. Thanks in advance,

Jason

[RAM Engineer]

Ahhh the perils of posting in a stickied thread.

Bump...

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Ram - I think the MIL lines in the CQB were not well received by a large group of users. The lines are pretty close together - it isn't like looking through a 10x... ranging is definitely harder with a 4x.

Also and I could be way off, I think for S&B who makes FFP tac scopes - the idea of a SFP MIL Line didn't jive.

I have a locking turret CQB. To me it is either at 1x with the dot on or at 4x and the dot off. I have shot this a fair amount out to 625. I have ranged with it out to that distance and in between as well; and have used the MIL lines to shoot holdovers and holdoffs (I never dial for wind). If you are proficient with a MIL scale already it is second nature and this represents an advantage for you on a being able to accurately stretch a carbine's legs. I personally would not trade this off, I think it is THE set up for my 16" switch block.

Here is some porn to help you decide:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/conga68/ARPaint001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/conga68/ARPaint002.jpg

Good luck

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Graphic Example from today:

Target is down the hill in between the two big trees in the foreground, just to the right of the dirt trail, and just left of the grey stump. I went prone and MILed the target (26" x 17.75"), guesstimated at 1.1 MILs, calculated 448 yrds, dialed my dope (different than BDC), guesstimated my wind hold at 1 MIL left, fired - first round bingo at the 5 o'clock just below the center door. I then grabbed an LFR and got a reading of 443 yrds. Lastly I made an adjustment to elevation and then fired the remaining 29 rounds while seated and slung using a wind hold of 1.0 MIL to 1.5 MIL left. The Short Dot with the CQB reticle is not optimum to range with but can work pretty well out the the limits of a carbine while still affording the shooter an optic that is nearly as fast as an Aimpoint in close.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/conga68/today002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v402/conga68/today003.jpg


Good luck

[Nick S]

Ahhh the perils of posting in a stickied thread.

Bump...

While it is not stated on their (S&B) website or literature the Zenith Short Dot LE is available with the P3 Mildot reticle.

This info came straight from S&B however I have the #7 in my scope. It is possible to retrofit the reticles.

I know this doesnt answer your question but may give a little more insight into your decision.

Nick

[TDB7117]

Okay, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on one of these so I'll try again... How do the newer Short Dot II scopes perform in lowlight with a 24mm objective lens??? I know their twilight factor is only (3.5/8.9) but how well do they really work at dusk/dawn or inside a dark building?

Thanks

[vicious_cb]

Anyone get to play with the 1.1-8x model yet? Are they only available in mil-dot?

[User Name]

What is the trick to getting the BDC on the non locking BDC turret? It takes me many attempts to get it on. I called S&B and they really did not know much about it. Any help would be great.

[krm375]

Is the 1x8 going to go up on here as well with description? Anyone at Shot get the word on when they are due to hit the shelves?

[docsherm]

The will have either a P3 or mil dot recital. Due to hit the shelves in late spring, per S&B rep I emailed. I am in line for this one.

[Titleist]

The will have either a P3 or mil dot recital. Due to hit the shelves in late spring, per S&B rep I emailed. I am in line for this one.

Interesting, I've heard anywhere from spring, to late spring, to late summer. :eek:

[pstrauss]

SWFA has a 1-8 short dot for sale now. Looks like its even in stock.

http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-1-8x24-Short-Dot-PM-II-30mm-Riflescope-P47551.aspx

[Titleist]

SWFA has a 1-8 short dot for sale now. Looks like its even in stock.

http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-1-8x24-Short-Dot-PM-II-30mm-Riflescope-P47551.aspx

It's not in stock, it's for sale, but not in stock.

[snakedoctor]

So, what size flip up caps do I need to fit a 1.1-4X24 short dot?

[RAM Engineer]

So, for the 1.1-4x24 Zenith Short Dot LE, which of the two reticles is preferred? FD2 or FD7?

[dfsutton]

I've read on various websites that the 1-8 will have the flash dot as well as a separate reticle illumination that can be turned on (not the same time as the flash dot) and then other websites make no mention of it. Does anyone know whether it will have the reticle and dot illumination or not?

[Merc8541]

I wonder how the glass compairs on that PMII vs Zenith. I'm thinking it might be worth the price jump? In most cases it is... :confused:

[JEL458]

Anyone have any idea if any of the Short Dots have an NSN? My searches turned up nothing. Thanks,

[Javelin]

Here's a few more pics of the Short Dot II (1.1 - 4 x 24mm Zenith Short Dot LE.)


http://www.box.net/shared/static/479knapf4z.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/tfth5g56ko.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/kiuorhmpk5.jpg


http://www.box.net/shared/static/6u5msimk07.jpg





http://www.box.net/shared/static/xdytghfcad.jpg


That makes me want to go get a S&B scope. :eek:

[bp7178]

That is actually the older version of the 1-4x24 Short Dot LE. The newer versions are shorter, having a tube lenght forward of the erector similar to that of the original Short Dot.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/Data11_4x24ZenithSDLEpdf-AdobeReader.jpg

[bp7178]

Just received my Schmidt & Bender today. I purchased the 1.1-4x24 Short Dot LE with a P3 (mil-dot) reticle.

At some point S&B revised the design of the Short Dot LE. The newest versions are shorter, about 10" overall. This makes the form factor just like the Short Dot Gen II. The new data sheet I got from S&B says the FD2, FD7 and P3 reticles can be had. They are all installed in the second focal plane.

The reticle doesn't change size as magnification changes. This gives you an approx 5.5 MOA dot on 1x, about 1.5 MOA on 4x. Of course, the tradeoff is the mil-dots aren't accurate for ranging on any other magnification other than 4x. With how fine the CQB reticle is on the regular Short Dot on 1x, I don't think this is an issue. Its hard to range on 4x, next to impossible on 1x. For any shooting you would be doing past 200-300 yards where drop needs to be factored, you would more than likely be on 4x anyway. If not, you can dial the elevation into the turret or approximate a holdover with the dot/reticle as you would with an Aimpoint.

The S&B german site lists the current specs, but says the only reticle is the CQB. The P3's bold lines are very easy to pick up. From the center, you have four dots spaced in the typical fashion then the lines go bold.

The flashdot is typical of S&B. Daylight bright on the high end, night vision compatible on the low.

Before anyone asks, there is NO blue tint to the glass.

Reticle pics will follow when I get to the range...

Pictures were taken with an iPhone 4. All of my money was spent on this thing, nothing left over for a fancy digital camera. So forgive me if they are slightly off.

Unboxing.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0656.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0657.jpg

Yeah. A riflescope which retails for $2,699.00, and who's pricing is agressivley controlled by S&B, is shipped in cardboard. I will say the packaging of the Trijicon TR24 blows this away. Just a note, not a gripe. ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0660.jpg

What you get...a manual and a warranty card, product survey form, and bikini scope covers.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0661.jpg

Notice the posistion of the erector assembly relative to the length of the tube forward of it. About an inch and a half shorter than the previous version.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0669.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0663.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0666.jpg

When you remove the windage cap, this is what you get. A compartment for a spare battery, and a view of the Posicon turret. The Posicon shows a representation of where the reticle is within its adjustment range. So this means if you want to dial wind, you have to take the windage cap off and try not to loose it. Of course, with a mil-dot reticle, you can just hold for wind and dial elevation.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0668.jpg

View under the battery on the brightness adjustment knob. No rubber washers added. ;) Yes that was a shot at SWFA.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0670.jpg

This is what the elevation turret looks like disassembled. Mine was ordered with the 75gr Hornady cam. What is odd is that the manual doesn't state at what range the optics needs to be zeroed at for the range marks to be accurate. Of course the clicks are 1/2 MOA. I would have rathered .1 MIL, but not a deal breaker.

The cap has a nice slot for a coin to unscrew it. Now wanting to mar it up to all hell, which is what will happen if you use a nickel, I've found the rim of a dummy round works great.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0671.jpg

Here you can see the turret markings with the referenced ammunition. I had just received a case of TAP T2 last week. Perfect timing. On a side note, the TAP T2 is amazing stuff. Surprisingly uniform.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0672.jpg

Without the optic mounted, my rifle weighs 8lbs on the money. Not a lightweight build, but it was never intended to be. Stripped of the Scout light, Larue FUG and rail covers, the rifle is 7.2lbs.

With the S&B mounted in a Larue SPR, its rocking at 9.6lbs. The Short Dot LE is a damn tank. If you want light, get a T-1.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0678.jpg

With the bi-pod, its at 10.4lbs.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/IMG_0683.jpg

Should be out to the range tomorrow, more pics will follow...

[snakedoctor]

Another Short Dot LE. I love this optic!

http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6115/6356356449_136e73f6dc_z.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/57942327@N05/6356356449/)

[cop1211]

Anybody with info on the the FD2 reticule? Intended use 0-200 yards.

[SkiDevil]

Schmidt and Bender Short Dot II - CQB Reticle

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeandShortDot106.jpg
Weight of rifle (16" Stainless Noveske Recon barrel in M4 upper with DD 12" rail) including Short Dot, TD stubby VFG, and Mini-Scout Light with Gear Sector mount, and 5 TD rail covers (Total weight without loaded P-Mag *9.518 Lbs) Weight of rifle without Scope, TD VFG, Surefire light, no magazine = 8.05 Lbs.

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeandShortDot036.jpg

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeandShortDot049.jpg

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeandShortDot057.jpg

Comparison of Optics (Weight, including mount)
1. Short Dot with ADM Recon 30mm mount & Cat tail (30.35oz)
2. Leupold FX-II 2.5X20mm in ADM Recon Scout 1" mount (14.7oz)
3. Aimpoint M2 with ADM 68-H mount (13.5oz)
4. Aimpoint R-1 with ADM Socom Ht mount (7.35)
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/NoveskeandShortDot071.jpg


Review to follow

Initial impressions:

Extremely well built (heavy)
Optical quality of lenses is superb
CQB reticle is excellent/ provides reference points
Dot is bright and daytime functional

After an exhaustive search for a general purpose optic, I selected the Short Dot with the CQB reticle. Although it is heavy, I find the weight manageable. I have fired several hundred rounds with the optic from the bench and off-hand. I believe that this scope will serve well as a general purpose optic for recreation, duty/ defensive use, hunting, and target shooting. As others have already stated, it is expensive but well worth it. I cannot recall clearer glass in any other type of optic which I have used in the past, the light transmission is excellent.

SkiDevil

[30 cal slut]

any updates on the 1-8x?

[Titleist]

Yep, I talked with the reps at SHOT.

News is NOT good. Price has gone up nearly a thousand dollars, and the targeted release is "maybe second quarter 2012." So that's an increase from 2600 to 3500.

In other news the Horus version of the Leupold CQBSS has actually been dropped down to 3000 dollars and is shipping now.

I'm not gonna lie, the S&B 1-8 was the absolutely BIGGEST disappointment of SHOT SHOW this year for me personally. The CC mode is amazing, but the price actually increasing is an astronomical flub on their part.

[30 cal slut]

Yep, I talked with the reps at SHOT.

News is NOT good. Price has gone up nearly a thousand dollars, and the targeted release is "maybe second quarter 2012." So that's an increase from 2600 to 3500.

In other news the Horus version of the Leupold CQBSS has actually been dropped down to 3000 dollars and is shipping now.

I'm not gonna lie, the S&B 1-8 was the absolutely BIGGEST disappointment of SHOT SHOW this year for me personally. The CC mode is amazing, but the price actually increasing is an astronomical flub on their part.

Damn. You figure with the Euro shitting the bed, the price wouldn't be that high. Thanks for the update.

[bp7178]

Yep, I talked with the reps at SHOT.

News is NOT good. Price has gone up nearly a thousand dollars, and the targeted release is "maybe second quarter 2012." So that's an increase from 2600 to 3500.

In other news the Horus version of the Leupold CQBSS has actually been dropped down to 3000 dollars and is shipping now.

I'm not gonna lie, the S&B 1-8 was the absolutely BIGGEST disappointment of SHOT SHOW this year for me personally. The CC mode is amazing, but the price actually increasing is an astronomical flub on their part.

I noticed this yesterday, the price went up on SWFA's website to $3500. There was no way they could keep sinking that much development into it and NOT have the price go up.

Even with the professional discount, the price for the Mark 8, the good one, is still above $3k.

That just may be the price of poker with the 1-8s.

[Titleist]

I ordered my S&B 1-8 over a year ago, my price still indicates 2600. I'm wondering if they're going to honor that price.

If so I'll just snag it cheap, and make a profit off it. But it's VERY disappointing.

[bp7178]

I would be amazed if they still honored that price. I doubt there is that much of a markup in price. It's a $900 difference between the preorder and new retail price.

Hopefully, yours sticks at $2600, but until it's ACTUALLY released, who knows.

[Titleist]

I'm inclined to call them on monday and ask if they'll honor it. If not, I'm canceling my order (I think I'm 4th or 5th in the wait for one).

I can not express how bad the exit pupil is on this. I'm bummed.

[Belmont31R]

Not paying 3500 especially after a couple years of delays. :p

[Titleist]

Not paying 3500 especially after a couple years of delays. :p

One of the first booths I hit was S&B. They had the 1-8 in two forms, one in black, and one in Tan built on contract for H&K's rifles.

When they gave me the price sheet the folks I was walking the floor joked that they could literally see my spirit break. Maybe 3500 is an effort not to price themselves to the point where no one would want the 1-4 anymore. UGH!

[30 cal slut]

I wonder if there was an across-the-board price increase on their existing PMII line. :blink:

[Titleist]

I wonder if there was an across-the-board price increase on their existing PMII line. :blink:

There was. :mad:

[bp7178]

And the way they have a lock down on dealer prices you bet your ass there won't be any deals going on them outside of mil/le pricing.

I loved all the features of the 1-8x except the exit pupil. 14mm is what I would consider the MINIMUM for 1x to be. 11mm makes it feel a bit cramped, let alone 9mm.

When you saw one at Shot, was it a "production" version or was it still a work in progress?

I think the pricing is a result of development and production capacity. S&B isn't making 20,000 of these a year, its a very small company.

F2S had one of the Premier 1-8s, and he said it didn't make him shoot any better. And really, thats what I wanted the extra magnification for; shooting from the bench making little holes.

[Titleist]

They said this is as close to the final model short of it being boxed and sold over the counter. Again, you're right, they're trying to recoup prices. Leupold has done so, and due to consumer interest realized they'd sell more CQBSSs by pricing them realistically.

S&B has not.

[Failure2Stop]

F2S had one of the Premier 1-8s, and he said it didn't make him shoot any better. And really, thats what I wanted the extra magnification for; shooting from the bench making little holes.

I seriously think that there were parallax issues, and given that the model was pulled back and redesigned I haven't really lingered on the issue.

[Belmont31R]

I seriously think that there were parallax issues, and given that the model was pulled back and redesigned I haven't really lingered on the issue.



Im not an optical engineer but I did express interest in them turning their 1.5-6X42 into a tactical scope with external adjustments, and maybe working that 1.5X down to 1.1X or 1.25 somehow.


The 6X top end with 42MM objective should be somewhere around 7MM exit pupil which is twice as large as the 1-8X. Personally I don't really care how large the front end is as long as I can mount it in a 1.5" tall mount. Im not sure why all these optics have to be whats basically a straight wall design. The CQBSS has a light bevel to the front but I still consider it straight wall.


Seems like it would make a huge difference especially with eye box and night time light. Im not going to pay 3500 for a scope with a tiny eye box and poor low light transmission no matter who's name is on the side. Doesn't even matter what coatings the lenses have or how clear the glass is if the glass is not a sufficient size to take in light, and put it into your eye. 8X with 24MM objective would be 3MM max exit pupil. At night the human eye needs 6-7MM. :rolleyes:

[bp7178]

There was a very informative post on the SWFA forums about exit pupil. It was a copy and paste the author had received to a question he had wrote to a manufacturer.

The short version is the math between the objective and magnification will get you entrance pupil. After the light passes through more lenses, and the erector assembly, it wouldn't be the exact same as doing the math on it.

I think there is a weight concern to just slapping a larger lens on there. Glass lenses are very heavy when compared to poly-carbonate and high index plastic lenses.

The one scope which has really caught my attention was the Swaro 1.7-10x. It uses a larger objective lens, similar to the new(er) Nightforce 2.5-10x.

One of these days I want to try a 1.7-10x Swaro with a RDS in an offset for a precision rig.

[pointblank4445]

Im not an optical engineer but I did express interest in them turning their 1.5-6X42 into a tactical scope with external adjustments


Belmont, you do realize that those DO actually exist, right? Granted they are somewhat rare and dated. Most of them have BDC turrets for .308. I also know that Frank Galli (Snipershide) had some special made with Gen I Short Dot turrets and he has alluded to the fact that it was just as capable as the 1-8x Short Dot if not more so due to the relatively low price.

[WS6]

Doubletap

[WS6]

I am now more confused than ever.

I read this thread, and found that people say the new Zenith short-dot is shorter--yet S&B's site lists it as longer.

That the 24mm objective has a wider FOV---yet S&B lists it as the same.

Then there is the issue of FFP or SFP---I think FFP is nice because it removes all the "clutter" on 1X. Is there a downside to FFP?

Why is FFP on their "flagship scope"...but not on their "newest" Shortdot?

If I want the best/quickest optic for up close, should I buy the Zenith based Shortdot (24mm), or the PM II, (20mm)? Is FFP really an advantage? I would think it is, but...

Is the CQB reticle better than the #7? Again, I like the removal of clutter from the FOV at 1X that I see in pictures of the CQB FFP reticle. However, is S&B's website correct that I give up NO FOV, or are people here like Molon correct?

Very confusing. I see a lot of 24mm obj. S&B's for sale. Not so many 20mm. Maybe this says something? (maybe not).

Basically, I am trying to compare: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/362771/schmidt-and-bender-police-marksman-2-short-dot-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-11-4x-20mm-locking-m855-turrets-first-focal-illuminated-cqb-reticle-matte

to: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/242536/schmidt-and-bender-police-marksman-2-zenith-short-dot-le-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-11-4x-24mm-illuminated-7-reticle-matte

Midway lists the Zenith SD model as the same length as the PM II, but the FOV is indeed listed as 4M larger at 100M using 1.1X. Is this "enough to matter" shooting both-eyes open? Is one eye-box more forgiving of head position than the other? Does one gather light better than the other that anyone can actually perceive (obviously based on raw data...).

I like the features (I think...) of the SD PMII due to the "disappearing reticle" on 1.1X afforded by the FFP, but on paper, the Zenith PM2 "wins" a little in a few areas. Then there is talk of "blue lenses", but I think that is only on the NON-SD Zenith line, no?

Are both optics currently in production, or was one or the other (or both, now?) phased out?

[bp7178]

I would only take specs as accurate from S&B's German website. All others are dated or incorrect.

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/11-4x24-pm-shortdot-le.html

There is more to FOV and exit pupil than just objective size.

FFP reticles in such a low power scope really make the reticle worthless at anything less than 4x. You will have a hard time even seeing it at less than 4x, never mind ranging or trying to hold with it.

I had one of the new(er) generation Short Dot LEs. There was NO blue tint.

Mine had a P3 reticle and was of course SFP. I would hardly call it cluttered at 1x.

The battery life on any of the vari scopes is incredibly short. I would rather a SFP so it could be used w/o the battery on 1x.

FWIW, I thought the eye box was better on my Trijicon TR24 and the Short Dot LE. Wasn't huge, but it was slightly better.

[WS6]

I would only take specs as accurate from S&B's German website. All others are dated or incorrect.

http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/11-4x24-pm-shortdot-le.html

There is more to FOV and exit pupil than just objective size.

FFP reticles in such a low power scope really make the reticle worthless at anything less than 4x. You will have a hard time even seeing it at less than 4x, never mind ranging or trying to hold with it.

I had one of the new(er) generation Short Dot LEs. There was NO blue tint.

Mine had a P3 reticle and was of course SFP. I would hardly call it cluttered at 1x.

The battery life on any of the vari scopes is incredibly short. I would rather a SFP so it could be used w/o the battery on 1x.

FWIW, I thought the eye box was better on my Trijicon TR24 and the Short Dot LE. Wasn't huge, but it was slightly better.

Thank-you. This is the kind of input I am after. I did more reading, and see that with the reticle illuminated on the FFP, it's worthless at 200 yards or so unless I'm shooting at a barn or cow or something, whereas with the SFP, I can indeed make use of it.

I have read 100 hours. Is this accurate? Still, that's a TON of actual "run-time".

How sensitive is eye-relief on the "close end" (I don't know how to word that). Do you need the extended mount, or is a regular mount fine?

http://www.bobroengineering.com/view/product/7/
vs.
http://www.bobroengineering.com/view/product/8/\

ETA: I was on the .de site. Their data is incorrect, if people in this thread are to be believed. I tend to think the site is wrong and will go with what people who have them in-hand say vs. what it says.

[bp7178]

The de site matched my Short Dot LE perfectly, and was the only source that correctly listed the specs, reticle choices aside. Specs change and you need to look at when the posts were made. If you have questions, I would call S&B's US office to confirm. They had sent me a PDF spec sheet which reflected exactly what the German site listed, but the measurements were changed from metric.

On scope mounts you can always slide the scope forward in the mount. It more or less comes down to where you want the turrets in relation to the rings. The occular lens will more or less be placed just forward of the charging handle.

Keep in mind with that 100 hours of battery life shit happens. You forget to turn the scope off etc. 100 hours also reflects one of the mid settings, not the nuclear bright highest one. There is a spare battery in the windage cap, but it isn't very easy to take out.

[WS6]

The de site matched my Short Dot LE perfectly, and was the only source that correctly listed the specs, reticle choices aside. Specs change and you need to look at when the posts were made. If you have questions, I would call S&B's US office to confirm. They had sent me a PDF spec sheet which reflected exactly what the German site listed, but the measurements were changed from metric.
In this case eye-relief is no different between the two models.
On scope mounts you can always slide the scope forward in the mount. It more or less comes down to where you want the turrets in relation to the rings. The occular lens will more or less be placed just forward of the charging handle.

Keep in mind with that 100 hours of battery life shit happens. You forget to turn the scope off etc. 100 hours also reflects one of the mid settings, not the nuclear bright highest one. There is a spare battery in the windage cap, but it isn't very easy to take out.

Does it have the auto-off feature after 6 or 8 hours, as advertised?

Ironically, it is the 20mm objective model which ORIGINALLY surfaced with the "blue tint"...hmmm...
http://www.tucsonguns.com/Scopes-001_Schmidt_Bender.php

[SkiDevil]

Does it have the auto-off feature after 6 or 8 hours, as advertised?

Ironically, it is the 20mm objective model which ORIGINALLY surfaced with the "blue tint"...hmmm...
http://www.tucsonguns.com/Scopes-001_Schmidt_Bender.php

I have the S&B SD 1-4X 20mm, Locking Turrets, CQB reticle model [manufacture date 2006] and there is NO Blue tint.

Also, I can use the 'dot' at 200 yards and the eye box is very forgiving compared to other optics that I have used, including the Trijicon 1-4X TR24 scope.

As for the FFP, I actually prefer it for a ranging capability provided in this particular scope. I shoot my SD at 2X and 4X. Mostly 4 power, the majority of the time. I don't know if this model (SD II, CQB Reticle, 20mm) is still being produced but a phone call to U.S. S&B would provide an answer.

I was planning on providing a detailed review on my experience in the near future. I have been shooting mine at various ranges and under varying light conditions.

Regarding the dimensions:

The specs on the Midway website are wrong. Aparrently, the specifications for the LE model listed on S&B website are incorrect as well. The SWFA and this site http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-zenith-riflescope.aspx provide the correct dimensions.

SD II CQB 20mm - Length= 268.5 mm or 10.57 Inches

SD LE Zeinth 24mm - Length= 289.81 or 11.41 Inches

Links:
SD II CQB Reticle
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/11-4x20-pm-shortdot.html

LE SD
http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-11-4x24-Zenith-Short-Dot-LE-Riflescope-P8130.aspx


If there is a better optic for the intermediate range (0-400 yards) AR precision type rifle, I am still on the look-out.

The Leupold MK6 1-6X http://swfa.com/Leupold-1-6x20-Mark-6-34mm-Riflescope-P52981.aspx looks promising, however the more telling aspect for me will be the durability versus the SB construction. The few S&B scopes that I have examined and used all shared common traits; precise, robust, heavy, and well made.

It is a very significant investment, but either way you would likely not be disappointed.

Good luck on finding-one. The Short Dots are not easy to come-by these days.

SkiDevil

P.S. One of the great things about the CQB reticle is that it is possible to bracket the target inside of it providing for a very consistent hold. I have shot some tight groups with mine at 100 yards using this method.

[WS6]

I have the S&B SD 1-4X 20mm, Locking Turrets, CQB reticle model [manufacture date 2006] and there is NO Blue tint.

Also, I can use the 'dot' at 200 yards and the eye box is very forgiving compared to other optics that I have used, including the Trijicon 1-4X TR24 scope.

As for the FFP, I actually prefer it for a ranging capability provided in this particular scope. I shoot my SD at 2X and 4X. Mostly 4 power, the majority of the time. I don't know if this model (SD II, CQB Reticle, 20mm) is still being produced but a phone call to U.S. S&B would provide an answer.

I was planning on providing a detailed review on my experience in the near future. I have been shooting mine at various ranges and under varying light conditions.

Regarding the dimensions:

The specs on the Midway website are wrong. Aparrently, the specifications for the LE model listed on S&B website are incorrect as well. The SWFA and this site http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-zenith-riflescope.aspx provide the correct dimensions.

SD II CQB 20mm - Length= 268.5 mm or 10.57 Inches

SD LE Zeinth 24mm - Length= 289.81 or 11.41 Inches

Links:
SD II CQB Reticle
http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/products/police-and-military-forces/11-4x20-pm-shortdot.html

LE SD
http://swfa.com/Schmidt-Bender-11-4x24-Zenith-Short-Dot-LE-Riflescope-P8130.aspx


If there is a better optic for the intermediate range (0-400 yards) AR precision type rifle, I am still on the look-out.

The Leupold MK6 1-6X http://swfa.com/Leupold-1-6x20-Mark-6-34mm-Riflescope-P52981.aspx looks promising, however the more telling aspect for me will be the durability versus the SB construction. The few S&B scopes that I have examined and used all shared common traits; precise, robust, heavy, and well made.

It is a very significant investment, but either way you would likely not be disappointed.

Good luck on finding-one. The Short Dots are not easy to come-by these days.

SkiDevil

P.S. One of the great things about the CQB reticle is that it is possible to bracket the target inside of it providing for a very consistent hold. I have shot some tight groups with mine at 100 yards using this method.

Thanks for accurate data! As to the FFP reticle you have, it is one that originally impressed me (albeit in pictures as I have not held one). When does it become usable/visible enough to use well, regarding magnification, without the illumination?

I did note, on your link to Euro Optic, that it appears to be the Zenith scope you have linked to, and not the Zenith PM II. As I understand it, the Zenith is a somewhat un-related product line that the PM II adopted the physical housing from?

[bp7178]

Also, I can use the 'dot' at 200 yards and the eye box is very forgiving compared to other optics that I have used, including the Trijicon 1-4X TR24 scope.

Regarding the dimensions:

The specs on the Midway website are wrong. Aparrently, the specifications for the LE model listed on S&B website are incorrect as well. The SWFA and this site http://www.eurooptic.com/schmidt-bender-zenith-riflescope.aspx provide the correct dimensions.

SD II CQB 20mm - Length= 268.5 mm or 10.57 Inches

SD LE Zeinth 24mm - Length= 289.81 or 11.41 Inches


I felt the opposite regarding the TR24, but we may not be comparing apples to apples. My Short Dot was a SFP with a P3 reticle.

The information you linked is not current. Again, the only accurate source i've seen is S&B's GERMAN website. The US one is incorrect (dated) as well.

The older generation SD LEs are 11.41", the newer ones are shorter and very similar in form to the FFP versions.

Zenith was the old nomenclature for the SFP version, it was derived from the Zenith line but when they went to the newest version they dropped the Zenith and list it as Short Dot LE.

This is what the new SFP version looks like...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/roguedemon/Data11_4x24ZenithSDLEpdf-AdobeReader.jpg

Notice the length of the tube forward of the turrets. Slightly over an inch shorter than the previous SFP flavor.

[bp7178]

Does it have the auto-off feature after 6 or 8 hours, as advertised?

Ironically, it is the 20mm objective model which ORIGINALLY surfaced with the "blue tint"...hmmm...
http://www.tucsonguns.com/Scopes-001_Schmidt_Bender.php

That review is VERY dated and may have been something that changed during production improvements.

I never tested the auto off feature that I can recall. One of my frustrations with the scope was the steps of intensity for the dot. All of the settings below 7 IIRC aren't bright at all and are really meant for dark adapted vision in dark enviroments. You really have 4 levels of adjustment for use in daylight. I wish there was a middle ground to the low end of the daylight settings. Something that would have worked better in mixed lighting enviroments, ie city streets.

[Nick S]

Do you find the P3 reticle usable at 1X with no illumination?

And with the P3 when illuminated is it a small cross or Flashdot?

Thanks

Nick

[SkiDevil]

Thanks for accurate data! As to the FFP reticle you have, it is one that originally impressed me (albeit in pictures as I have not held one). When does it become usable/visible enough to use well, regarding magnification, without the illumination?

I did note, on your link to Euro Optic, that it appears to be the Zenith scope you have linked to, and not the Zenith PM II. As I understand it, the Zenith is a somewhat un-related product line that the PM II adopted the physical housing from?

The reticle is visible at 2X.

Although, I am by no means an expert on the Schmidt and Bender product line, my understanding is that the SD LE model is based from the hunting Flash Dot Zeinth model line.

I would suggest contacting SB USA or posing the question to Mr. Vickers on the SME forum. He could likely provide clarification and more technical information.

It can get somewhat confusing because of the several variations produced of the Short Dot. Also, if finding a Short Dot model to suit your needs is not possible, I would consider checking-out the Swaro 1-6X BRT model and the upcoming Leupold 1-6 as well.

However, if you decide on the Short Dot and have the time, I am fairly certain with some searching one could be found given several months if necessary. Particularly, if the SD 1-8 model is finally released coupled with other models coming onto the market such as the Leupold.

Link: http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/short-dot/

[SkiDevil]

The information you linked is not current. Again, the only accurate source i've seen is S&B's GERMAN website. The US one is incorrect (dated) as well.


Thank you for the clarification. I was unaware of the recent change. Hence, the confusion I referred to in the other post.

Is the link/ website providing the most recent and accurate (correct) specifications, you are referring to listed at http://www.schmidtundbender.de/?

[bp7178]

Do you find the P3 reticle usable at 1X with no illumination?

And with the P3 when illuminated is it a small cross or Flashdot?

Thanks

Nick

The P3 was SFP, and very useable w/o the dot. The illumination was a dot, about 4.5 MOA on 1x, about 1 MOA on 4x.

The P3 SFP was nice in the regard if you knew your holds and understood it was different at 1x and 4x, the reticle is very versatile.

[M-FOURTEEN]

Oh how i wish could get an S&B.....The prices just go up year, after year. Truly wonderful products, i was in awe of the one i checked out this weekend.