View Full Version : Spike's ST-T2 Buffer?
I know what it is, basically. I understand the concept.
I've read the buffer FAQ pages.
I've searched. These are mentioned occasionally, but I've never seen any really definitive judgement. If I missed THE conclusive thread, then please point me to it.
I saw the "official Spikes" thread, but I don't want to plow through 1,200+ posts (!).
My question:
Is this just a gimmick (like the hydraulic buffer), or is it really better than an H or H2 buffer (regardless of the weight issue, which I understand).
Thanks in advance,
Bimmer
It's a nice looking heavy buffer. Same concept as and H2, H3, 9X, etc.
It's a little lighter than a standard H2:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/ZekeMenuar1/BufferTable-1.jpg
organdonor
07-23-10, 13:15
It doesn't rattle. That's the only advantage, I guess. So, as much a "gimmick" as Magpul's CTR.
It doesn't rattle. That's the only advantage, I guess. So, as much a "gimmick" as Magpul's CTR.
I've seen claims that it helps reduce recoil (or at least felt recoil), too, but I wonder if this is just hype...
On the positive side, it doesn't cost any more than a generic H2.
I just don't want to put something in my perfectly functioning rifle that's going to cause it to fail (I'm thinking here of the problematic hydraulic buffers).
Bimmer
You'll probably have to run one and see how it "feels" & functions in your set-up.
I have them in all my builds, but haven't done any real comparisions with other buffers.
IIRC, all the reviews I read on TOS were positivie.
I've seen claims that it helps reduce recoil (or at least felt recoil), too, but I wonder if this is just hype...
More likely perceived recoil vs. felt recoil, but yes a heavy buffer, Spikes or otherwise, tends to smooth out the perception of the recoil impulse. I think physics tells us that you probably aren't cutting the actual recoil.
I just don't want to put something in my perfectly functioning rifle...
If it functions perfectly, why change anything at all internally?
EzGoingKev
07-23-10, 13:41
I bought their 6 position receiver extension with the spring and buffer but have yet to shoot it yet.
The buffer is nice. A spring is a spring.
Based on the one I received I would not recommend their 6 position receiver extension. I swapped out a Colt 4 position one for it. With the Colt installed charging the bolt was nice and smooth. With the Spikes I can hear it drag/scrape. Also the tube is machined off center or something. The Colt was uniform all the way around (on the outside). The Spikes has a raise section on one side and is flat (like it should be all around the outside).
I was supposed to shoot it tomorrow but they are calling for thunderstorms tonight into tomorrow so shooting got put on hold. I will be shooting it next week though.
I recently bought one and replaced my RRA 9mm buffer. Honestly the 9mm shoots a little softer to me (due to the weight I'm sure), but I like the rattle free construction of the Spikes and will keep it.
If it functions perfectly, why change anything at all internally?
Well, by "perfectly" I mean it shoots every time (knock wood).
I have a carbine buffer in my gun now (it's a 14.5" mid-length).
If a heavier buffer would reduce perceived recoil (and perhaps reduce wear and tear), then that would be even more perfect...
Bimmer
organdonor
07-23-10, 14:55
I've seen claims that it helps reduce recoil (or at least felt recoil), too, but I wonder if this is just hype...
On the positive side, it doesn't cost any more than a generic H2.
I just don't want to put something in my perfectly functioning rifle that's going to cause it to fail (I'm thinking here of the problematic hydraulic buffers).
BimmerI have one in my Spikes lower. I'd have to shoot side-by-side to notice any difference in recoil. Doubt it will be any more prone to failure than a normal buffer because the only difference is that it's filled with tungsten powder instead of ball bearings. It looks nicer too IMO.
vicious_cb
07-23-10, 16:42
I have shot the ST-T2 buffer side by side with an H2. There was no difference in recoil between the two.
organdonor
07-23-10, 16:53
I have shot the ST-T2 buffer side by side with an H2. There was no difference in recoil between the two.Didn't suspect so.
Posted by Specialized Armament over on WeaponEvolution.com...
I would imagine that the tungsten in the Spikes product contacts the buffer body just as the slugs do. No, I do not believe tungsten powder models provide any improvement in performance. The ability of the tungsten granules to shift at the proper time is limited. It simply can't instantaneously shift inside the buffer like the slugs can. Think of water in a test tube tipped on its side.
If you like and believe in the product great but don't say it works just as good based on anecdotal evidence. Show me the money. There is quite a bit of engineering and science behind the traditional H buffer models. Granulated tungsten in a buffer is noting new. HK experimented with it for years. I would be quite surprised if the HK IAR automatic rifles are using buffers manufactured with granulated tungsten.
Granulated tungsten is cheaper than tungsten rod, suffers from volumetric/density limitations and doesn't make a cool sound when you shake it your hand...
I like mine for the one reason its not as loud as a normal buffer. Thats about it....
I have shot the ST-T2 buffer side by side with an H2. There was no difference in recoil between the two.
I am thinking of buying one for increased reliability, perceived reduced recoil and cool looks. I have a Bushmaster ORC and my buffer is 3.8 oz (H). A friend has the ST-T2 and it weighs 4.2 oz that he got with his Spikes Tactical upper. We have not had a chance to take it shooting.
Has anyone compared the ST-T2 to a standard carbine buffer (3.8 oz)?
The article below explains how to make your M4gery reliable.
http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/
I like mine for the one reason its not as loud as a normal buffer. Thats about it....
I never notice any noise from the buffer itself while shooting. I have heard the spring when shooting suppressed, but never a buffer.
organdonor
07-23-10, 21:08
Posted by Specialized Armament over on WeaponEvolution.com...What is he talking about? How does Spike's buffer not work as well as an H buffer?
ZombieKiller
07-23-10, 21:10
I was a little skeptical at first, but I put one in my Sabre 16" carbine, and found that I like not hearing the spring noise and rattle of a standard carbine buffer. It's just a smoother-feeling thud. Try it out, if you don't like the difference, I'm sure you'll have no problems selling it off to someone else.
... and found that I like not hearing the spring noise...
Can you elaborate on how you feel a different buffer took out the noise of the buffer spring?
ZombieKiller
07-23-10, 21:35
Can you elaborate on how you feel a different buffer took out the noise of the buffer spring?
I couldn't tell you why it is, but it is. I'm using the same spring, and it's consistent for me with a CTR stock and now with a UBR stock. With the old buffer it sounded like there was a spring bouncing in the center of my skull with every shot. The sound was louder (or just more noticeable to me), higher-pitched, and it decayed slower. With the Spike's buffer the overall sound is lower-pitched and fades much quicker; more like a thud than a twangy spring sound. Maybe the powder causes the buffer to have a less-sharp impact on the spring than slugs do (like a punch vs. a slap) and the increased weight dampens the reverberation of the spring?
Can you elaborate on how you feel a different buffer took out the noise of the buffer spring?
Kinda like a deadblow hammer, it doesnt seem to resonateor bounce as much as say a solid object. Everything has a natural frequency and the loose powder seems to be slower in the spikes buffer. You still get "sprong" spring noise but you dont get the normal buffer noise. You wouldnt notice until you shoot both side by side. Its very little but it is there....
Kinda like a deadblow hammer, it doesnt seem to resonateor bounce as much as say a solid object. Everything has a natural frequency and the loose powder seems to be slower in the spikes buffer. You still get "sprong" spring noise but you dont get the normal buffer noise. You wouldnt notice until you shoot both side by side. Its very little but it is there....
Fair enough. Non-issue for me though, so the only real "benefit" is a push.
It does look nice though.
Thomas M-4
07-23-10, 22:13
I couldn't tell you why it is, but it is. I'm using the same spring, and it's consistent for me with a CTR stock and now with a UBR stock. With the old buffer it sounded like there was a spring bouncing in the center of my skull with every shot. The sound was louder (or just more noticeable to me), higher-pitched, and it decayed slower. With the Spike's buffer the overall sound is lower-pitched and fades much quicker; more like a thud than a twangy spring sound. Maybe the powder causes the buffer to have a less-sharp impact on the spring than slugs do (like a punch vs. a slap) and the increased weight dampens the reverberation of the spring?
Here is the problem at least for me. Am I trading less cycling noise with an increase in bolt bounce? I haven't seen any creditable evidence of less bolt bounce or comparable performance with the ST-2 buffer and I cant see it reducing overall recoil comparing it to a buffer of similar weight. And the argument of the noise is well a none issue as I see it.
I couldn't tell you why it is, but it is. I'm using the same spring, and it's consistent for me with a CTR stock and now with a UBR stock. With the old buffer it sounded like there was a spring bouncing in the center of my skull with every shot. The sound was louder (or just more noticeable to me), higher-pitched, and it decayed slower. With the Spike's buffer the overall sound is lower-pitched and fades much quicker; more like a thud than a twangy spring sound. Maybe the powder causes the buffer to have a less-sharp impact on the spring than slugs do (like a punch vs. a slap) and the increased weight dampens the reverberation of the spring?
Ok, not a big issue in the grand scheme, for me, but I guess if something bothers you, and this fixes it, more power to you.
organdonor
07-23-10, 22:34
Here is the problem at least for me. Am I trading less cycling noise with an increase in bolt bounce? I haven't seen any creditable evidence of less bolt bounce or comparable performance with the ST-2 buffer and I cant see it reducing overall recoil comparing it to a buffer of similar weight. And the argument of the noise is well a none issue as I see it.Why do you think Spike's buffer increases bolt bounce?
vicious_cb
07-24-10, 00:21
I ended up putting the ST-T2 buffer in my beater 5.45 gun and I kept the H2 in the carbine the spikes buffer was originally for. My reasoning is that I wanted to keep the heavier buffer, I wanted to focus on slowing down the BCG velocity as during the unlocking phase. With everything else being equal a heavier buffer will be harder to accelerate than a slower one. I could care less how my buffer sounds.
eternal24k
07-24-10, 09:07
I buy them simply because it costs the same as an H2 and it just feels nicer, I feel like I am getting more for my money. If it were $5 cheaper to get a standard H2 I would, I do not believe all the other aspects, they both work well.
What is he talking about? How does Spike's buffer not work as well as an H buffer?
He's saying that the granulated tungston can't flow as quickly as the properly designed slug weights. Right or wrong the notion seemed clear to me. :confused:
What exactly the Spikes buffer solves is beyond me.
What exactly the Spikes buffer solves is beyond me.
It doesnt solve anything, it just a different approch to the same outcome. Just like anything, theres more than one right way to do something....
organdonor
07-24-10, 12:27
He's saying that the granulated tungston can't flow as quickly as the properly designed slug weights. Right or wrong the notion seemed clear to me. :confused:
What exactly the Spikes buffer solves is beyond me.I think he's wrong.
Regardless, it doesn't have to solve anything to be a nicer product. The anodizing is nice and, IMO, getting rid of the rattling is a plus. I'd liken the comparison to an MOE Vs CTR argument except for less rattling from Magpul you pay twice the price.
I think he's wrong.
Could be. I thought he brought up some interesting points.
I have a lot of experience with archery. Like AR's, there is always some newer, better, wonder product coming out to separate a fool from his money. That being said, I don't think the ST-T2 is one of them. Let me explain why. Tungsten powder has been used for a while now in archery stabilizers. These stabilizers provide additional weight for a more stable shooting platform, and at the shot, they soak up a ton of vibration for a very dead in the hand feel. The powder basically moves opposite of the bow to offset it's inertia and also dampens vibration.
My theory is that the T2 works in a similar manner, making for a slightly smoother recoil impulse. It works as well as an H2 and isn't more expensive, nor is there much risk of parts failure, so there isn't much downside that I can see. I use one on a middie and it is a very smooth shooting rifle.
motorwerks
07-24-10, 21:45
I have one too. It is a little quieter, but I am running it with a Tubb Flatwire spring, so I cant say anything about it being quieter with a factory round wire spring. I know its a topic of much controversy but I grease my springs..... it does make them a little quieter.
As for it helping with recoil, it recoils the same as all my guns(its .223 how much recoil is there?), but it seems like the muzzle doesn't rise as much.
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