A Rare AR Find [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

Army Chief

07-25-10, 18:37

SN 005700??

Has anyone looked up the production date range to see precisely what vintage that would make this rifle? I dare say it predates a significant portion of our membership base.

Great find .. it's always good to go back and see very early examples of this weapon system, and this one serves as a poignant reminder of not only how far we've come, but also how long the rifle has been in service. It's is a real testament to the soundness of the original design, notwithstanding the rough start in SE Asia.

AC

Iraqgunz

07-25-10, 19:10

My guess is that whomever is handing the weapons thinks all AR's are the same and they just passed it out. The agency who received had an armorer that was apparently on the ball and knew it wasn't normal.

With the money that could be generated by selling this in an auction they could easily buy 2 dozen very good AR's.

Random chance or are they now having to dig that deep after giving so many away?

chavez_e_chavez

07-25-10, 19:11

no rust and looks to be in great shape...armalite was the original builders of the m-16 am i correct??? didnt stoner leave colt and work for armalite???

SeriousStudent

07-25-10, 19:17

......

With the money that could be generated by selling this in an auction they could easily buy 2 dozen very good AR's.

That would be an excellent outcome. The good guys get some much-needed resources, and a piece of history finds an appreciative home.

IG - Would that be possible, under the DRMO program? Or do they have to transfer it back to the original Federal agency?

Thanks for posting the pictures!

Iraqgunz

07-25-10, 19:30

I am not a lawyer. As far as I know military weapons are not in the NFA registry so they can never be transferred or sold. As for the DRMO program it is my understanding that the agency has to agree that the weapon(s) are a "lease" and must be returned whenever it is requested. I believe that they also are not allowed to make any permanent alterations.

That would be an excellent outcome. The good guys get some much-needed resources, and a piece of history finds an appreciative home.

IG - Would that be possible, under the DRMO program? Or do they have to transfer it back to the original Federal agency?

Thanks for posting the pictures!

SeriousStudent

07-25-10, 19:59

Rats, that is a shame. I hope it's current users never have to fire it in anger.

What's the old saying? "If it could talk, I wonder what stories it could tell?"

Thanks for the info, and stay safe over there.

TOrrock

07-25-10, 20:14

Damn.

I know someone on here paid some serious coin for a parts kit (everything less the lower) of one of those.

That's a real piece of history. Just knee jerk reaction I'd say 1962/63 production for the Air Force.

nickdrak

07-25-10, 21:08

I am not a lawyer. As far as I know military weapons are not in the NFA registry so they can never be transferred or sold. As for the DRMO program it is my understanding that the agency has to agree that the weapon(s) are a "lease" and must be returned whenever it is requested. I believe that they also are not allowed to make any permanent alterations.

That's correct. They are effectively on loan, and the gov can reposses them whenever they wish. I've never heard of the gov actually do it, but the DRMO M16's cannot be sold, transferred or otherwise.

The_War_Wagon

07-25-10, 21:14

Some more from SOCNET about it;

According to information found via Google (couple of different sites), it looks like this weapon was manufactured in early 1966 and part of the General LeMay Air Force contract. Another source (http://www.arfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5532) suggests it was manufactured prior to end of 1963.

And;

You have the first model of AR put out by Colt after purchasing out Armalite in 1959. That is a 601 or model 01. The 601's went from 1959 to 1963. The first 2 were models were 601 & 602. The 01 should have a 1:14 rifle twist which was changed in the 02 to the more common 1:12 rifle twist and that one should not have a forward assist. There were something like 14.5K 601's made from 59'-63', so I would guess that serial number falls somewhere in the late 1961 to early 1962 time frame as I believe there were only a few hundred first put out in 59'. The original green furniture makes it even more rare of a model 601. Parts alone on that rifle are worth quite a bit of money piecemeal. I have seen just the original green furniture (not the entire rifle) go for nearly $2K. The entire weapon can go for $25K+ on the open market as a pre-ban full auto weapon. Probably much more than $25K.

Dang... :eek:

cmoore

07-25-10, 21:33

I currently have (28) M16A1's (black furniture, triangular and A2) here in the safe @ work that are DRMO guns and all FA.

We now have Colt M4's that are FA and my weapons Lt. wants to return the A1's to DRMO.

Some serial numbers date back to late sixties/early seventies...true classics and all run very well.

Stickman

07-25-10, 23:34

Stickman

07-25-10, 23:35

Here they are.

5684

5685

5686

5687

5688

Nothing showing on this end as a Mozilla user.....

redsox20

07-26-10, 00:13

Here you go Stickman.
http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr248/mff15/gun1.jpg
http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr248/mff15/gun2.jpg
http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr248/mff15/gun3.jpg
http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr248/mff15/gun4.jpg
http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr248/mff15/gun5.jpg

tpd223

07-26-10, 06:14

Trust me, we know what we have there.

The armorer at our job is a good friend, he called me up on a Friday night to tell me I needed to get down to the armory to see what just showed up, he had about pooped himself when he cracked open the box 'o M16s.
(BTW, almost every gun we were sent is an old to very old M16, hardly an a1 in the pile).

For now that gun is going in our mini museum case next to the 1928 Thompson we have.

I was going to post pics for general interest, but I got beat to the punch obviously.

Stickman

07-26-10, 09:29

Here you go Stickman

Thanks, I appreciate it.

motorwerks

07-26-10, 11:42

my wife would kill me but I would trade my son for that thing. :D

ok maybe not but its pretty rad. I wish I could just trade my black A1 furniture for the green stuff and the slip ring for my delta ring. :(

ST911

07-26-10, 22:35

No sale of 1033/LESO property such as this. Transfer or loan to certain other interests that could give the gun a home it deserves can likely be accomplished.

francis

07-26-10, 23:04

How often were the M-16's issued with the green pistol grip and buttstock

TOrrock

07-27-10, 06:09

How often were the M-16's issued with the green pistol grip and buttstock

They really weren't. These were very early production, between 1959 and 62/63. By 1964 the black stocks were standard.

These were Air Force or very limited Army buys. They hadn't even been adopted as the M16 yet, that didn't happen until 1965 with the "one time buy" for the Army and USMC for issue in Vietnam.

US Army SOF guys who were in S.E. Asia as advisors had some.

hrt4me

07-27-10, 08:20

I am not a lawyer. As far as I know military weapons are not in the NFA registry so they can never be transferred or sold. As for the DRMO program it is my understanding that the agency has to agree that the weapon(s) are a "lease" and must be returned whenever it is requested. I believe that they also are not allowed to make any permanent alterations.

+1, this is all correct. The weapons eventually have to be returned with the original parts (the department can alter the weapons for use, but keep the original parts so the weapons can be restored to original condition upon return).

TOrrock

07-27-10, 09:09

no rust and looks to be in great shape...armalite was the original builders of the m-16 am i correct??? didnt stoner leave colt and work for armalite???

Gene Stoner worked for the Armalite division of Fairchild Aviation.

He left Armalite and went to Cadillac Gage Corp., where he designed the Stoner 63 which was one of the very first modular small arms weapon systems. The Marine Corps looked really hard at the 63, but decided to keep the M16. The US Navy bought some of the LMG variants and typed them as the Mk.23 Mod.0. Reed Knight got his start making spare parts for the Stoner series for the Navy.

Stoner never worked for Colt.

usmcvet

07-27-10, 11:53

You can alter them ie replace the upper with a SBR upper and put a different stock on the gun. You must maintain the parts and be able to return it to the origional condition and back to the Govt. If they ever ask. They also have an audit program where they come and take a look at what you have. We have a few and replaced some parts including the FA fire controls with SA fire control.

usmcvet

07-27-10, 11:54

Hrtme

Looks like we were typing at the same time.

ford7379trucks

07-27-10, 23:09

no rust and looks to be in great shape...armalite was the original builders of the m-16 am i correct??? didnt stoner leave colt and work for armalite???

other way around. Stoner designed the AR-15 at Armalite the Armalite sold it to Colt. Then stoner whent to work for Colt. As part of the contract between Armalite and Colt. Colt had to put Armalite AR-15 on the AR-15 for a period of time. Then Colt kept the AR-15 name. AR stands for ARmalite.
They could sell it and buy a new squad car.

TOrrock

07-28-10, 07:25

other way around. Stoner designed the AR-15 at Armalite the Armalite sold it to Colt. Then stoner whent to work for Colt. As part of the contract between Armalite and Colt. Colt had to put Armalite AR-15 on the AR-15 for a period of time. Then Colt kept the AR-15 name. AR stands for ARmalite.
They could sell it and buy a new squad car.

Sullivan took the AR-10 and turned it into the AR-15.

Stoner never worked for Colt.

ford7379trucks

07-28-10, 09:24

Stoner left in 1961 to serve as a consultant to Colt. http://www.armalite.com/images/Library/History.pdf

MPi-KMS-72

07-29-10, 18:43

Last summer at the NY State Fair there was one of those on display alongside some of the more modern weapons the 174th Fighter Wing www.174fw.ang.af.mil

I think I posted them here before but in case I didn't:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09013.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09011.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09014.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09018.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09015.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09017.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09016.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09009-1.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09010.jpg

It was displayed alongside this M4 which got all the attention from everyone else. All the rest of the public drooled over the m4 and I seemed to be the only one interested in the '01.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09019.jpg

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l119/sepp45/09%20state%20fair/StateFair89-5-09020.jpg

jmr

07-31-10, 10:49

What an awesome find.

EW1066

08-05-10, 21:43

With regards to the NY state fair pics, is the furniture on the "classic" ar made of bakelite? I only ask because of the red showing through the green paint. I know that there are epoxies used in the aircraft/composits industry today that have a similar color. But I'm not sure if the adhesives technology of the early 1960's was up to the challenge. I have seen bakelite timing gears in some of my old cars and it looked just like that....

Vince

-Wes-

08-06-10, 17:45

Yes, that's Bakelite, hence the rumors of Mattel manufacturing the furniture.
Many claim to have seen Mattel stamped on the stock or pistol grip yet no pictures that I'm aware of have surfaced to prove it.

usmcvet

08-06-10, 19:20

Only photo shopped photos. There are some kicking around pretty funny stuff.

Great looking Old School rifle. We were approved for one M16. I sent the money order out about two weeks ago to cover shipping. $43 and change.

bkb0000

08-06-10, 20:07

3308... even older. whats up with the raw upper?

ROGOPGEAR

08-07-10, 09:44

that is way too cool. thanx for uploading the pics.

Dale Gribble

08-09-10, 11:56

Take a look at this rare find. A police dept. received under the DRMO program for agencies to get surplus military M16's. Too bad that it can't be given to a musuem or something.

http://www.socnet.com/showthread.php?t=96237

Any reason why it can't go to a musuem "on loan"?? Our county museum has a Thompson that was used to guard Dillinger, Sheriff Sarber's duty revolver and his .38 detective special "on loan from the Allen Co. Sheriffs Department"

peabody

08-27-10, 10:21

wow ! :cool: too cool !

NavArch

08-27-10, 11:19

That's correct. They are effectively on loan, and the gov can reposses them whenever they wish. I've never heard of the gov actually do it, but the DRMO M16's cannot be sold, transferred or otherwise.

So......like the battleships that are now on public display at various port cities. Technically, they still belong to the government - which is why parts were occasionally pulled from those ships to keep the Fleet functioning in the 70's and 80's. My first ship had WWII-era deck guns that would sometimes get spare parts from one of them.

LJNoobicon

08-29-10, 19:03

Slightly OT, a buddy of mine with a local Sheriffs office uses the same DRMO program and they have old M14s, it seems they were set to semi auto and the selector removed. I know he would see this and wish they had these instead.

usmcvet

08-29-10, 19:16

Yeah the M14's dried up last time I checked along with the M79's! A pair of M79's would have been great for a less lethal solution for our little PD, one for each car.

Iraqgunz

08-29-10, 22:55

I just found an original M79 for 7995.00. I wish I had the coin.

Yeah the M14's dried up last time I checked along with the M79's! A pair of M79's would have been great for a less lethal solution for our little PD, one for each car.

usmcvet

09-30-10, 22:10

Random chance or are they now having to dig that deep after giving so many away?

Ned

They must be digging deep. Today we recived an A1 at work from the DMRO/LESO program. I have photos on my phone but need to get to a PC to upload them. The tag on the gun indicated it was out in storage in September 1974! It has a 300,000 serial number indicating an Air Force gun. It is a Colt AR 15 also marked an an M16. It has black furniture. There is no forward assist or shell deflector. The bolt has the forward assist groves on it. It may have been new in 1974 when it was put into storage.

usmcvet

09-30-10, 22:15

Other than being bone dry the weapon is in great shape. In fact better than two previous guns we have from surplus. They show signs of pitting prior to an arsenal rework their serial numbers are in the 5,000,000 range.

nickdrak

10-01-10, 23:24

I stumbled across the one I was talking about earlier in this thread at work today. One of my administrators who apparently knows better, took it out of circulation and locked it up in the armory. Of course I didnt have a camera with me to take pics, but it has the same identical Colt/Armalite rollmark. The serial number is 000177!

I promise I will get a picture of it next week to post here now that I know where it is located.

usmcvet

10-02-10, 08:43

That is like the Holy Grail of the AR15/M16 # 000177! I tried to up load a close up of the roll mark. It failed to upload atleast ten times on two different computers Thursday and Fridthoughts thoughts? I will have to check the size. 6-7 others uploaded just fine.

usmcvet

10-02-10, 09:57

Double Tap/Post.

usmcvet

10-02-10, 09:58

Before some TLC and oil was applied. It looks like it was hit with a degreaser. The finish has the same look as my guns do after being cleaned with gun scrubber. I did not even notice the AR-15 roll mark at first.

(My SneakyBag & LMT SBR is next to the A1)

The yellow tag on the gun indicates it was put into storage in September of 1974. It was issued/loaned to us 36 years later, almost to the day. The tag is an Air Force tag and from looking at the serial numbers on line this looks like an Air Force gun with the 300,000 range serial number.

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1434

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1426

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1431

A1 Stock.

I've never seen a sling swivel like this one. Is this the way all A1 stocks were made? I know they were shorter. I like the length of the stock but the swivel looks like it would break off with heavy use.

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1432

This is the bolt that came out of the gun. It looks to me as if it is a replacement bolt, with forward assist marks on it. I tried to get photos of the locking lugs but theh cell phone camera can only do so much. It does not even look fired. The yellow tag on the gun indicates it was put into storage in September 1974. I think the bolt might have been replaced at that time. This gun has no forward assist and no brass deflector.

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1430

After a little TLC and oil was used to clean up the finish. The thing looks brand new. A cardboard dowel soaked in some type of oil was in the bbl. The gun was in a heat sealed plastic bag with the serial number on the outside.

The tiny delta ring made it a little tougher to take the hand guards off.

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1428

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1427

Close up of roll mark

https://www.m4carbine.net/picture.php?albumid=299&pictureid=1433

Nick, I think your department will win the low serial number award with #177!

bkb0000

10-02-10, 10:57

yea, thats just how they did the A1 sling swivels.. it's not just plastic holding it on, though- there's metal in there.

that's beautiful.. enjoyed reading about it.

usmcvet

10-02-10, 11:04

Thanks BKB. Looks like there is a roll pin in there it is probabaly plenty strong. It is pretty amazing how well preserved she is. I am looking forward to seeing Nick post photos of #000177.

LonghunterCO

10-03-10, 00:14

Wow! Thank you for posting.

Coleslaw

10-04-10, 10:54

Stoner left in 1961 to serve as a consultant to Colt. http://www.armalite.com/images/Library/History.pdf

Templar is correct; Gene never worked for Colt directly. He did in fact go to Cadillac-Guage, although it is clear that he had limited consulting work with Colt, usually during early military testing. Gene had moved on with other projects.

From The Black Rifle:

….by the time General LeMay’s purchase was finally approved in May of 1962 events in Southeast Asia had heated up to point where the original 8,500 Air Force AR15’s formed much of the smaller part of a “package” including over 20,000 going to Navy SEAL teams, some special South Vietnamese Army units and their US advisors.”

The 320K serial numbered rifle – a model 604 - may not specifically be for the Air Force. It very well could be an Air Force rifle, but not for sure. It is difficult to determine with rifles that early exactly where they went.

I agree the bolt carrier has been changed out at some time.

usmcvet

10-04-10, 12:43

Coleslaw

Thanks for the info. The yellow "servicible tag-materiel" has condition A typed in and the tag indicates it: REPLACES AF FORM 40B, WHICH MAY BE USED IN THE USAF. (Their caps not mine.) It is stamped AFD206D and has a date stamp 09 SEP 1974. That made me think it was an AF gun along with the info from the errornet I found. I tried to get a photo of be tag but my cell phone is not cooperating!

It is pretty cool. I was only two at the time.

Coleslaw

10-04-10, 13:02

In that case, most likely it came out of Air Force inventory.

Vorpal_weapon

10-04-10, 15:47

My agency received several of the early M16s through DRMO/LESO - all were model 604 from AF service. One had a hard chromed BC, large head firing pin and three-prong FH. Serial#s ran from 49K range to 4 million. All were LN in plastic wrap - sweet.

familyman357

10-05-10, 20:25

Ned

They must be digging deep. Today we recived an A1 at work from the DMRO/LESO program. I have photos on my phone but need to get to a PC to upload them. The tag on the gun indicated it was out in storage in September 1974! It has a 300,000 serial number indicating an Air Force gun. It is a Colt AR 15 also marked an an M16. It has black furniture. There is no forward assist or shell deflector. The bolt has the forward assist groves on it. It may have been new in 1974 when it was put into storage.

Maybe... but a guy told me in June that his department had just received unissued M4s... so I dunno. :confused:

usmcvet

10-05-10, 20:42

Maybe... but a guy told me in June that his department had just received unissued M4s... so I dunno. :confused:

Did they buy the M4s? There is program where agencies can buy weapons at the govt. Contract Price. When I looked about a year ago you could get any of the Colts in production with the FA or Burst fire control you wanted. You could also buy M203's and M9's. I am sure there were other weapons but I can not remember. These weapons would be marked US Property. I think the purchase went through Rock Island Arsenal just like the LESO guns.

There were two reasons I did not go that way. Prices were high and avalibility. Every weapon had an 18-24 month wait. I want to say an M4 was$ 1400 or more. That was also when ammo and weapons were just not available anywhere. It was probably two or more years ago.

familyman357

10-05-10, 20:55

I didn't think to ask. :o

That might explain it.

usmcvet

10-05-10, 21:00

Hey crazier things have happened but that might be what it was.

bkb0000

10-05-10, 21:02

what kind of pricing do LEAs get on M4s? i've wondered a time or two why departments will buy M&P 15s, when, from what i hear, they could get colt M4s for probably less

usmcvet

10-05-10, 21:12

I will check. It has been a few years now but the prices seemed a little high. I think the M9's were like $450. I would say they are buying the M&P's because of marketing. S&W advertises aggressively I almost never see a Colt add. I can not think of when I've ever seen one I am sure I actually ever have seen one. Most of the cold I know are not fun guys and the o.es who are don't often understand what’s a good gun and what's a great gun.

usmcvet

10-05-10, 21:42

what kind of pricing do LEAs get on M4s? i've wondered a time or two why departments will buy M&P 15s, when, from what i hear, they could get colt M4s for probably less

One of the big things that helps is no FET or local sales tax. I know a Glock with three mags is about $415. Night sights are extra. We're pretty small so we would just go to the local gun shop. When I've talked to LMT they sent me a price list.which was probably a 5-10% discount of MSRP not really a savings. I know I bought an LMT upper from them and it was $485 not sure about shippinf I think it was includi about the same as retail and they were out of stock.

Bolt_Overide

10-06-10, 01:08

Awesome peice of history, its a shame that it cant be in a museum, or the hands of a private collector that will appreciate it.

usmcvet

10-06-10, 05:42

I agree. I wish it could be owned by somone too.

ST911

10-06-10, 08:42

Did they buy the M4s? There is program where agencies can buy weapons at the govt. Contract Price. When I looked about a year ago you could get any of the Colts in production with the FA or Burst fire control you wanted. You could also buy M203's and M9's. I am sure there were other weapons but I can not remember. These weapons would be marked US Property. I think the purchase went through Rock Island Arsenal just like the LESO guns. There were two reasons I did not go that way. Prices were high and avalibility. Every weapon had an 18-24 month wait. I want to say an M4 was$ 1400 or more. That was also when ammo and weapons were just not available anywhere. It was probably two or more years ago.

1122 program: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/104440

Great option if you don't need things in a hurry. Not always the cheapest, but it might be on certain widgets.

M4s weren't that expensive last time I looked. M16s were ~$500-600 or so, the M4s ~$700.

usmcvet

10-06-10, 09:44

I just looked at the 1122 info thanks for the link. Is this brand new or surplus gear too? We have a pair of A1's purchased in the late 80's or early 90's for about $250 each but they are used too and I belive they are 1122 guns. We "own" those two. The LESO guns are lent/issued to us all we needed to pay was the shipping.

familyman357

10-06-10, 23:33

what kind of pricing do LEAs get on M4s? i've wondered a time or two why departments will buy M&P 15s, when, from what i hear, they could get colt M4s for probably less

As a rough guide, the last figures I had from Phoenix Distributors / Phoenix Law Enforcement (a Colt distributor) list agency pricing on the Colt 6920 at $955.00 and on the Colt 6940 at $1,130. The Colt R0977 is $1,085. That's agency pricing, though. Individual officer pricing is higher (except for the R0977, which is only available as a department purchase).

EagleArmsHBAR

11-21-10, 12:14

The 601 partsshould be sold and money used to purchase additional uppers. I doubt the govt will know if it is ever returned with non 601 parts. I'm sure they have it logged as a green 20" rifle.

nickdrak

11-21-10, 22:21

#177!

Sorry it took soo long for me to get a pic of this posted here. I ran into work to grab some of my gear for a range trip tomorrow, and it was left out of the vault for some reason....

Shitty cellphone pic:
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/8973/cimg0148il.jpg

I will get some better pics of the entire rifle this week with a real camera.

All of the rifles we received were converted to semi-auto only, so the selectors were swapped out. We still have all of the original parts though.

usmcvet

11-22-10, 07:45

Nick

That is awesome. Thanks for sharing.

nickdrak

11-24-10, 00:56

Better quality pics:
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/2100/sdc10687s.jpghttp://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4651/sdc10688m.jpg
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/9347/sdc10689n.jpg
http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/7968/sdc10691x.jpg
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/6226/sdc10693s.jpg
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/9904/sdc10692e.jpg

usmcvet

11-24-10, 05:40

Man that is history right there. It looks awesome.

bkb0000

11-24-10, 06:45

truly... so does somebody actually carry this on patrol?

Militant83

11-24-10, 10:41

I have a buddy that works for columbus PD here in Ohio and he was telling me they got some old A1 through the DRMO program and thats what they use for their patrol rifle for the guys that are lucky enough to get them.

nickdrak

11-24-10, 11:29

truly... so does somebody actually carry this on patrol?

Used to be issued to one of our sgts, it was taken out of circulation due to it's rarity.

SpartanDCI

12-09-10, 00:28

Since Colt production started at Serial Number 00000, your department's rifle is the 178th made!

Glad it is still in one piece, but it would have been better if still transferable to any legal US Citizen.

I think a transferable one numbered lower was offered by a dealer...serial number 104 if I remember. The dealer claimed it was the original Test gun by Armalite and Colt, which was actually Armalite Serial Number AR15 00004.......which is still in Reed Knight's collection in Titusville, FL.

Great history!

usmcvet

12-09-10, 01:03

Yeah I wish we could own them too. There is a big red stamp across the bottom of the form 4 that states something along the lines of transferable to government agencies only!

SpartanDCI

12-09-10, 01:23

Yeah, the Post 1986 Selectfire weapons transferred out of Government inventories are stamped the same as Form 10 guns.....only to other PD's or Government approved entities like Federal/State sponsored museums.

The bad thing is that before 1972, Form 10 guns could be transferred like any other pre1968 or pre1986 machinegun.....seems a not so kosher dealer registered a bunch of illegal machineguns and cannons through a Police Department, who registered them with the Feds on a Form 10 making them legal.....the PD then transferred them back to the dealer, who sold them at a premium to civilians.

I bought one of these guns, a Chinese AK47 Nam bring back gun, in 1978 from an Illinois machinegun dealer, who used to have big full page ads in Shotgun News and Soldier of Fortune magazine. I did a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) check on the registration and found that the gun was registered in 1972 by an Illinois Sheriff's Department on a Form 10. When I asked about whether it was legal to own......BATF told me that before a Supreme Court ruling closing the loophole, those Form 10 guns could be owned by regular tax paying people if transferred before 1972 ruling. I have the letter still in my office, but the gun is long gone to pay for another gun.

Still wish it were possible to get these guns into circulation, kind of like the Department of Energy guns, M14's and M60's, that were registered and sold before 1986.......

Coleslaw

12-09-10, 08:28

Still wish it were possible to get these guns into circulation, kind of like the Department of Energy guns, M14's and M60's, that were registered and sold before 1986.......

Yeah, Denny and Charlie Logan got most if not all of the M14's from the DOE. Had quite a few (maybe 8-10?) at Knob Creek for sale not too long after they got them. $2500-$3,000 IIRC. Those were the days.

Quite a few is a relative term, as I think there are only about 25 or so original M14's in the NFA registry. I have the number around here somewhere, but I think that is pretty close. Anyone have the number?

SpartanDCI

12-09-10, 11:28

I do not remember the total number, but I know that Ron at Class 3 Supply in Hermitage, PA at the time had a couple M14's.....probably from Charlie Logan.

At the time I think the only legit US M14's came from the DOE and Harrington & Richardson's museum, plus the Amnesty guns.

Colt had a US M14 for testing of some Colt related device......I think it was a US Government provided rifle, it hung on the wall of their Tech library in the dungeon of the old factory under the dome; TRW had a couple M14's that were in their reference collection......later given on Form4 to a couple of managers.......I think Neil Smith out of Mentor got them......Gene Stoner at Ares had an M14 with fiberglass stock, but I do not know if it was transferable or not.

There were a couple of Amnesty ones from Vietnam that were advertised in the 1970's by Curt Earl and RJ Perry, but I never confirmed them........I handled an Amnesty Springfield Armory (U.S. Massachusetts made) National Match M14 in Connecticut in the mid 1980's that was unfired......I think it was given as a Match rifle and "walked".........so the "25" number sounds about right.

Coleslaw

12-09-10, 16:34

Deleted

Dionysusigma

12-09-10, 18:56

Meh. Needs a rail, MIAD, and PMags. :sarcastic:

rero360

12-09-10, 21:35

Back in '03 and '04 I worked at the Hancock Air National Guard base in Syracuse NY augmenting their security. In one of the arms rooms on base they had three rifles that looked exactly like that one, I didn't get a real good look at them though.

CoryCop25

12-09-10, 22:11

My department has three of these on the way. I can't wait to see what we get!

usafmsgtret

01-01-11, 19:19

Nice 601's guys, thanks for sharing.

Defensive Armament

01-03-11, 18:12

Here's one for sale. Only $14,000!!:big_boss:

However, it doesnt look to have the correct 601 furniture, unless it was painted black.

If I had the money, I'd buy just because I've always wanted one and I know these things are few and far between.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/983541814/Guns/Rifles/Class-3-Rifles/Class-3-Subguns/Colt_Armalite_AR15_601_Very_Low_Serial_Number.htm#

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/119057/983541814/wm_2371993.jpg

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/119057/983541814/pop_wm_2371990.jpg

http://www.gunsamerica.com/userimages/119057/983541814/pop_wm_2371989.jpg

scottryan

01-04-11, 22:07

Redhat

01-04-11, 22:40

I was issued an M16 during Desert Storm and we were still using them in 2001!

usmcvet

01-05-11, 05:48

I was issued an M16 during Desert Storm and we were still using them in 2001!

An A1 or an Armalite?

Redhat

01-05-11, 07:24

An A1 or an Armalite?

It was an M16 (no fwd assist) not an A1 or A2

Defensive Armament

01-05-11, 07:34

The furniture on that gun is correct. The stock has the straight profile behind the lower, rather than angled.

Later 601s had black furniture.

I did not know that. So, did they paint it black? From everything I've read I thought all 601 furniture was the brown type that had been painted?

Defensive Armament

01-05-11, 07:39

It was an M16 (no fwd assist) not an A1 or A2

That'd be a 604 slab side, right? It, should have had A1 furniture and A1 sights. Although the furniture could have been changed out.

Did it have the 1x12 twist pencil barrel?

Redhat

01-05-11, 17:10

That'd be a 604 slab side, right? It, should have had A1 furniture and A1 sights. Although the furniture could have been changed out.

Did it have the 1x12 twist pencil barrel?

I don't know if it could be designated 601/602/604 as USAF only called them M16's...said so right on the side of the mag well.

Generally, the older charging handle was replaced, they had triangle handguards, chrome bolt carriers, new type firing firing pins and short stocks with no butt trap. Some had old bolt catches but some had alaredy been modified. All had black furniture.

And all had 1:12 barrels with prong then later bird cage flash suppressors.

Through the years they could all be found with various upgrades as older parts were replaced with new mostly through attrition. Back then we even used "black bore" muzzle erosion gages depending on the code on the barrel.

Defensive Armament

01-05-11, 18:58

Sounds like an USAF 604 to me. The USAF 604's were slab side, marked M16 not M16A1.

If it were a 601 or 602 it'd probably be stamped Colt Armalite. Also the 601 had a 1x14 twist rate.

usmcvet

01-05-11, 19:13

The gun our PD just recived in September was an AF gun. It is a slab side gun marked AR15 and M16. The AF put it into storage in 1974. There are photos of it here. It is in beautiful shape.

Redhat

01-05-11, 19:29

Sounds like an USAF 604 to me. The USAF 604's were slab side, marked M16 not M16A1.

If it were a 601 or 602 it'd probably be stamped Colt Armalite. Also the 601 had a 1x14 twist rate.

The ones we used were stamped Colt/Armalite, they were a hoot to fire on Auto!

Defensive Armament

01-05-11, 19:51

The ones we used were stamped Colt/Armalite, they were a hoot to fire on Auto!

I'm comfrused now...:confused:

Previously you stated it was marked M16 on the side. And in this quote you stated it was also marked Colt/Armalite. I'm not an end all say all Colt guru, but to the best of my knowledge the the 601's and 602's were marked Colt/Armalite AR15.....no M16 marking on those.

The 604 was marked Colt, Property of US GOVT M16. You also stated it was a 1x12 twist.

No offense my friend, but could it be possible you memory is a little fuzzy on the M16 marking? Because if it is, it would make sense.

Here's why,

If your rifle was marked Colt/Armalite and had a 1x12 twist rate it could have actually been a 602. The original 601's were 1x14. When the 602 was developed it was changed to 1x12.

Again, no offense, just trying to fiqure out the model rifle you had.;)

Defensive Armament

01-05-11, 20:02

The furniture on that gun is correct. The stock has the straight profile behind the lower, rather than angled.

Later 601s had black furniture.

Been thinking about this so I did a little more digging. From my research the black furniture wasnt used on later 601's. Actually the black furniture (called type C) showed up on the 602's which leads me to believe the gun I posted earlier in fact doesnt have the correct furniture, but rather 602 type C furniture.

They Type C furniture is the bridge between the type B and the type D. Type C furniture was made of the same material as type B having that bakelite mottled look. The type C furniture (602) was impregnated with black color unlike the Type B (601) which was a brownish color that was often painted green, sometimes called 601 green.

Unless it was a transitional thing? Who knows?

Redhat

01-05-11, 20:41

The 604 was marked Colt, Property of US GOVT M16. You also stated it was a 1x12 twist.

Sorry to confuse you

It was 1991 so yes my memory could be more than a "little fuzzy". I do remember they had Colt and Armailite on the lower receiver. Whether it said M16 or AR15 I cannot swear to but I want to say AR15.

I do know they were 1:12 bbls.

I'll make a call tomorrow and see if I can clarify.

Defensive Armament

01-05-11, 20:58

Sorry to confuse you

It was 1991 so yes my memory could be more than a "little fuzzy". I do remember they had Colt and Armailite on the lower receiver. Whether it said M16 or AR15 I cannot swear to but I want to say AR15.

I do know they were 1:12 bbls.

I'll make a call tomorrow and see if I can clarify.

Not a problem man, just trying to help you pin point the rifle. :)

Lower marked Colt/Armalite, 1:12 twist rate.....sounds like a 602.

scottryan

01-05-11, 21:10

Not a problem man, just trying to help you pin point the rifle. :)

Lower marked Colt/Armalite, 1:12 twist rate.....sounds like a 602.

That would be a 601. Later 601s had 1/12 twist barrels.

Defensive Armament

01-06-11, 08:03

That would be a 601.

If Redhat's gun was a Colt/Armalite with a 1:12 barrel, why would you think it was a 601 and not a 602 since the 602 was the version with the 1:12 barrel?

Later 601s had 1/12 twist barrels.

Do you have any links or info showing this. No offense, I'm just going on information I've researched for myself.

According to what I've found the 601's only had 1:14 twist rate barrels. If it has a 1:12 it'd automatically make it 602. The change in twist rate was what made the 602, it was inherently a 602 when the twist rate was changed. Aesthetically the 601 and 602 look very much the same except for the type C black furniture the 602 eventually received. Theoretically, one could put 601 type B furniture on a 602 and it'd look identical except for the twist rate.

Scott if you have more info or links to share that'd be great. I really enjoy learning about these older AR's.;)

scottryan

01-06-11, 08:30

If Redhat's gun was a Colt/Armalite with a 1:12 barrel, why would you think it was a 601 and not a 602 since the 602 was the version with the 1:12 barrel?

Do you have any links or info showing this. No offense, I'm just going on information I've researched for myself.

According to what I've found the 601's only had 1:14 twist rate barrels. If it has a 1:12 it'd automatically make it 602. The change in twist rate was what made the 602, it was inherently a 602 when the twist rate was changed. Aesthetically the 601 and 602 look very much the same except for the type C black furniture the 602 eventually received. Theoretically, one could put 601 type B furniture on a 602 and it'd look identical except for the twist rate.

Scott if you have more info or links to share that'd be great. I really enjoy learning about these older AR's.;)

All this information is on the tacked threads on the retro section on TOS.

By the time the 602 came out, Armalite was completely out of the AR15 story.

Some late 601 are not even marked Armalite.

The 1/12 came out on late 601s, not 602s.

Defensive Armament

01-06-11, 08:57

All this information is on the tacked threads on the retro section on TOS.

By the time the 602 came out, Armalite was completely out of the AR15 story.

Some late 601 are not even marked Armalite.

The 1/12 came out on late 601s, not 602s.

What's TOS? I'm not up to speed on the acronyms..lol!

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out. This is a topic of great interest to me and I'd like to know what I'm talking about. I certainly dont want to be spouting out misinformation. That's why I try to personally research this stuff rather than repeat what others tell me because it seems I always get different information.

Heck, there may not be definitive info.

I'd love for you to share any links, book references or information that you have on this subject. You can PM me the info or email me at jason@defensivearmament.com.

scottryan

01-06-11, 10:02

What's TOS? I'm not up to speed on the acronyms..lol!

Thanks for the info, I'll check it out. This is a topic of great interest to me and I'd like to know what I'm talking about. I certainly dont want to be spouting out misinformation. That's why I try to personally research this stuff rather than repeat what others tell me because it seems I always get different information.

Heck, there may not be definitive info.

I'd love for you to share any links, book references or information that you have on this subject. You can PM me the info or email me at jason@defensivearmament.com.

The retro forum on AR15.com

Grunt Medic TXARNG

01-06-11, 11:15

Interestingly, I saw an Air Force Sergeant carrying a slab-sided rifle with M16A2 upper and furniture in Baghdad last year. I commented that without the guard around the mag release, the receiver was older than she was - she had no idea what I was talking about. Now I wish I'd asked to see the serial number...

.45fmjoe

01-06-11, 14:47

That'd be a 604 slab side, right? It, should have had A1 furniture and A1 sights. Although the furniture could have been changed out.

Did it have the 1x12 twist pencil barrel?

That would be a bit difficult since the M16A1 didn't go into production until September of 1967, and Colt's Model 601 began production in 1959. ;)

.45fmjoe

01-06-11, 14:48

Defensive Armament

01-06-11, 20:42

The retro forum on AR15.com

Roger that, been spending some time in that section for a while now.

Also, I suggest he purchase The Black Rifle, it's a pretty good book.

Thanks, I'll check it out.

All of the details will make your brain hurt after a while...lol!:confused:

Killjoy

01-07-11, 21:16

Thanks for posting, an incredible bit of history on the black rifle.

what kind of pricing do LEAs get on M4s? i've wondered a time or two why departments will buy M&P 15s, when, from what i hear, they could get colt M4s for probably less

S&W will often offer killer deals to get LEO sales, or even take trades in. One time my department traded a bunch of old Remington 870's for 20 M&P-15's rifles and mounts! My department also just bought another 100 rifles, and I think we got them for around $700.00 per rifle. With mounts, magazines, slings, pouches, I think we paid an overall price of about $1000.00 per unit.