View Full Version : Customer Service, AR's and You
I am posting this here simply because it I don't want to exclude people by posting it in General Discussions. This post directly relates to AR's. Please do not start pissing contests with one another causing this to get locked.
So a little back story to this. Several times over the years here I have seen posts where people have purchased "brand x" AR only to have it malfunction or break. It seems that after a brief discussion they want to dick with it themselves or take it to the local "Fuddsmith" so he can trash it further. Let's put this into a context. If you purchased a large screen LED TV from Bestbuy and it wouldn't work when you plugged it in, or it died in 2 days would you simply try and fix it yourself or take it to the local repair store?
I know I wouldn't. I would load it up and take it back to Bestbuy with the expectation that they make it right. On the other hand they can't make it right if I don't tell them about it.
So why would you do this with an AR? Many manufacturers have some type of warranty and if they don't that should have told you something when you bought it. But, they can't fix a problem or their product if no one tells them. Yes, I know that there are some who are content in putting out xxxx type of carbine and could care less what their customers think, but again this is the fault of the buyer for not doing their homework.
I am bringing this up due to a couple of things that happened in the last few weeks. I had a Bravo Company upper receiver that was not mating up properly to some of my lowers as well as the lower for the person whose rifle I was converting to a flat top carbine. I contacted Paul and explained the problem. He replied almost immediately and sent me a new one. Now that is service! He could have blown me off or said deal with it. But, BCM stepped up and did the right thing. I could have easily played with it a little to make it fit, but I shouldn't have to do it.
The other incident involved a friend of mine whom I worked with in Iraq. He recently returned home and wanted to put together some stuff that he had been acquiring over the last several months. He was attempting to put together a lower receiver from Sun Devil Arms here in Arizona. In the process he broke an ear off the trigger guard area while installing a Magpul trigger guard. This was not his first build and I taught him what he knows so I feel confident that he knew what he was doing. He told me that the pins for the guard as well as the bolt catch were very difficult to install and that material was actually shaved from the holes during installation.
He asked me what he should do as he was prepared to just scrap it. I advised him to contact Sun Devil and have them make it right. He sent them an email (he Bcc'd me) and received no response after waiting a week. I then told him to call and speak with a live person. The first time he called he got someone who basically had no clue what they were talking about and then told him to email sales. I told him to call again and ask for warranty/ repairs. On the 2nd call he reached the same person who advised that they were "kind of doing everything" at the moment.
He got the run around and then was told to send the lower and the LPK and they will look at it to determine if it was out of spec or not.
He is still waiting for a repsonse at this time. I personally believe that they could have dealt with this better. They have every right to inspect it, but they should be giving the consumer the benefit of the doubt and offered to replace it.
A few more last thoughts.
1. If you buy a new AR and it isn't working right-return it. Do not dick with it and try and fix it yourself. Make the manufacturer address the issue. If possible send them an email describing in detail what happened and follow it up with a phone call.
2. Do your homework. There is enough information available here to make an informed decision. When certain brand names continue to pop up and not in a good way, that is a CLUE. Set your emotions aside and use reason.
3. If you cannot return the weapon (or whatever it is) then make sure that you seek out competent help. If your local "gunsmith" says he can fix it, find out what his background and experience is.
organdonor
07-25-10, 22:26
If I broke the ear off of a lower I wouldn't expect the company to replace it.
Why not? He did it correctly and the holes were not correct.
If I broke the ear off of a lower I wouldn't expect the company to replace it.
organdonor
07-25-10, 22:35
Why not? He did it correctly and the holes were not correct.Every guard pin I've installed has been a tight fit. I guess I mean that I wouldn't fault them for not replacing it but I'd be impressed if they did.
I guess you didn't read the post. The holes were not in spec. As he was installing the guard it was shaving material from the hole it also happened with the bolt catch. The parts kit is a milspec kit. I have installed several dozens and never had this happen.
Every guard pin I've installed has been a tight fit. I guess I mean that I wouldn't fault them for not replacing it but I'd be impressed if they did.
organdonor
07-25-10, 22:47
I guess you didn't read the post. The holes were not in spec. As he was installing the guard it was shaving material from the hole it also happened with the bolt catch. The parts kit is a milspec kit. I have installed several dozens and never had this happen.I read this part
was told to send the lower and the LPK and they will look at it to determine if it was out of spec or not.
So figured the jury was still out on that. Anyway that's how I feel personally; don't get angry.
I don't need them to tell me it was or wasn't. I have seen the pics and I will vouch for him. I am not getting angry with you. It just seems like want to argue to argue.
I read this part
So figured the jury was still out on that. Anyway that's how I feel personally; don't get angry.
Snapping ears is a common mistake, but it doesn't negate issues with parts being out of spec.
Customer service is often a matter of getting the attention of the right person.
When certain brand names continue to pop up and not in a good way, that is a CLUE. Set your emotions aside and use reason.
A very good point. Another comment added to that would be to watch what vendors are recommending, they may be legit, but they may also be pushing what they sell and like.
Find voices you trust if you need help.
GermanSynergy
07-25-10, 23:38
100% spot on. Great post!
I'm dealing with a firearms issue right now (non AR platform), but will give the MFR a chance to fix it.
Stickman is right. The only person to talk to at Sun Devil is the owner, Dave Beaty. I have seen him replace lowers when the issue was without a doubt the consumer's fault.
Even a "mil-spec" parts kit can be out of spec, everyone makes mistakes, including Sun Devil.
I put a little oil on the pin and I use a roll pin punch. I start the pin in the hole and just as it gets flush I install the trigger guard. I usually lock the lower in a vise using a vise block. Never had any problems
I know you have assembled untold numbers of AR's and M-16's, but my personal opinion is you need to support the ear before installing the pin. I do it with the trigger guard although it could be done with a piece of metal, aluminum or plastic that fits snugly between the two ears. You also need to support the other ear on a piece of wood, nylon or something.
I do agree with your post, advise the manufacturer and give them a chance to make it right.
I never said that I didn't support the ears. I actually use a piece of wood, a starter punch and start the pin. Then I add the trigger guard and complete the process.
Stickman is right. The only person to talk to at Sun Devil is the owner, Dave Beaty. I have seen him replace lowers when the issue was without a doubt the consumer's fault.
Even a "mil-spec" parts kit can be out of spec, everyone makes mistakes, including Sun Devil.
I know you have assembled untold numbers of AR's and M-16's, but my personal opinion is you need to support the ear before installing the pin. I do it with the trigger guard although it could be done with a piece of metal, aluminum or plastic that fits snugly between the two ears. You also need to support the other ear on a piece of wood, nylon or something.
I do agree with your post, advise the manufacturer and give them a chance to make it right.
Stickman is right. The only person to talk to at Sun Devil is the owner, Dave Beaty. I have seen him replace lowers when the issue was without a doubt the consumer's fault.
Even a "mil-spec" parts kit can be out of spec, everyone makes mistakes, including Sun Devil.
I know you have assembled untold numbers of AR's and M-16's, but my personal opinion is you need to support the ear before installing the pin. I do it with the trigger guard although it could be done with a piece of metal, aluminum or plastic that fits snugly between the two ears. You also need to support the other ear on a piece of wood, nylon or something.
I do agree with your post, advise the manufacturer and give them a chance to make it right.
You're not listening- Iraq Gunz knows all about his friend's problem and saw it. If he says it was more than some Fud banging the ears off then that is what it is. He included details about the holes being not in spec. If he says they weren't then they weren't. If he goes so far as to say it's a mil-spec kit and it shaved off material while trying to insert them then the case is closed.
organdonor
07-26-10, 12:18
You're not listening- Iraq Gunz knows all about his friend's problem and saw it. If he says it was more than some Fud banging the ears off then that is what it is. He included details about the holes being not in spec. If he says they weren't then they weren't. If he goes so far as to say it's a mil-spec kit and it shaved off material while trying to insert them then the case is closed.Unless he measured them he doesn't know if they're in spec or not. He never says that he has measured them. He never even implies that he has handled the lower; how he could tell the holes are out of spec by way of pictures is beyond me. So quit telling people that they haven't read or do not understand.
Having showed someone how to do something correctly doesn't preclude the possibility of a mistake.
how he could tell the holes are out of spec by way of pictures is beyond me.
This is a literal statement. It's beyond you, even though the core info is in the original post.
Beyond the fact that IG's likely forgotten more about building and repairing the bloody things than any usual 7 users have ever learned, you're making statements alluding to a lack of integrity that you have no reason to presuppose. Unless he has a nose that reminds you of an uncle you don't like...?
So, that's either your intent, or you're horrible about phrasing stuff in type so that it doesn't come out snide and hubristic. This isn't math class and he doesn't have to show you how he came to his conclusions, as this isn't a thread about lower specs, but about Customer Service interactions and what's likely to garner Joe Consumer the best possible results.
Knock it off, already. You might learn something, however the evidence herein argues against that outcome.
organdonor
07-26-10, 15:26
This is a literal statement. It's beyond you, even though the core info is in the original post.
Beyond the fact that IG's likely forgotten more about building and repairing the bloody things than any usual 7 users have ever learned, you're making statements alluding to a lack of integrity that you have no reason to presuppose. Unless he has a nose that reminds you of an uncle you don't like...?
So, that's either your intent, or you're horrible about phrasing stuff in type so that it doesn't come out snide and hubristic. This isn't math class and he doesn't have to show you how he came to his conclusions, as this isn't a thread about lower specs, but about Customer Service interactions and what's likely to garner Joe Consumer the best possible results.
Knock it off, already. You might learn something, however the evidence herein argues against that outcome.Here's some acknowledgement... feel better now?
You're not listening- Iraq Gunz knows all about his friend's problem and saw it. If he says it was more than some Fud banging the ears off then that is what it is. He included details about the holes being not in spec. If he says they weren't then they weren't. If he goes so far as to say it's a mil-spec kit and it shaved off material while trying to insert them then the case is closed.
You are correct, I am not listening, I am reading. I wrote what I did based on his post in another thread where he wrote how he installs the roll-pin for the trigger guard. In that thread/post he left out a crucial step which is support the "ear." He clarified that in this thread. Thanks.
Everyone needs to take a breath and get back on topic. Arguing over the installation of the trigger guard pin is for another topic, this one isn't it.
Also, IP's and SME's have an assumed integrity. If they state something, I'd offer that you better be able to disprove them easily, and they'll agree with you, before you take off on that tangent.
Thanks everyone.
organdonor
07-26-10, 16:02
Everyone needs to take a breath and get back on topic. Arguing over the installation of the trigger guard pin is for another topic, this one isn't it.
Also, IP's and SME's have an assumed integrity. If they state something, I'd offer that you better be able to disprove them easily, and they'll agree with you, before you take off on that tangent.
Thanks everyone.I don't give a ****. There is no way he can tell if a hole is five one thousandths of an inch out of spec by looking at photos. **** you and your infraction.
I don't give a ****. There is no way he can tell if a hole is five one thousandths of an inch out of spec by looking at photos. **** you and your infraction.
Here's some acknowledgment. Feel better now?
I know I do. Bye.
Here's some acknowledgment. Feel better now?
I know I do. Bye.
Thank You!
The way BCM handled their issue was commendable for sure. Two thumbs up. Not sure if IG has a personal relationship or is a known quantity to them or not, but they handled things well.
IMO, Sun Devil messed up not in wanting to check the lower out before they passed judgement, but in not responding in a timely manner.
Good customer service is a two way street that hinges on honesty. Most of us here have probably been on the receiving end of some shady business by a given manufacturer, but that dishonesty can run both ways. Having dealt with people in my professional life that I know are full of shit and just trying to get something for free, I don't fault a company for wanting to check my claim out before making things right. Hopefully, BCM and other companies like them don't get sunk by being generous and upstanding in dealing with customer complaints.
Being in Canada, I can't return any firearm/part directly to the company.
However, I recently had a little problem with an order from an excellent and very reputable dealer.
I got a call from them, a 14.5" AR-15 barrel assembly I purchased didn't pass the quality inspection test and it was their last barrel, so they couldn't sell it to me (it just goes to show how some dealers go beyond looking at an item to make sure it's right and safe for the customer).
He went to hell and back to find something for me, and finally found me an already assembled 14.5" LMT upper (without the BCG) and took $100 off the price tag, still telling me he hoped I would find the deal acceptable and was very sorry for the inconvenient.
Let's just say I'm a very happy customer.
I have occasionally been guilty of fixing things that were not as they should have been when purchased new. It was easier for me to do it myself than to ship it off. Unfortunately this lets the manufacturer off the hook for the repair and gives them false data about their quality control. I've actually been better about this lately but this post was a good reminder.
I don't know if BCM knew Igunz but they sure don't know me. They swapped out a BCG for me no questions asked. I later found out the problem wasn't even with the BCG. BCM seems to treat everyone well.
SeriousStudent
07-26-10, 18:39
I have personal experience with BCM's customer service, and found it to be excellent.
I recently assembled a "featherweight" middy carbine, like the ones gotm4, Sam and others have built.
I decided to shave the FSB, and reuse it under a Troy Extreme rail, so as to have a rock-solid gas block. The problem was, I could not budge the taper pins with two mules and an ape. :eek:
One email to Paul later, I was in great shape. He had me ship the upper back, pressed out the pins, disassembled the upper, and shipped it back to me. Turnaround was less than 5 business days, and that included a trip from Texas to Wisconsin and back! The man did his part in a day, and charged a ridiculously modest price.
This was not just ordering parts, but contacting the maker, setting up the service, shipping, etc. All of which happened without a hitch.
I've recommended BCM to a pair of friends at work, both of whom have assembled carbines now with BCM parts. I will keep recommending BCM to others. :)
You will have to hunt long and hard to find anybody better at customer service than Mr. Buffoni.
IG, thanks for starting this thread. I'm sorry it got derailed by braindonor, but it's definitely a worthwhile topic.
I'd like to say a few things. My intent here was not to bash SunDevil. It was to show different levels of customer service. It was also to impress upon members that they should attempt to have the manufacturer resolve the problem first.
It's hard for anyone to make improvments if they are never told about the problem. How they proceed after that is up to them.
The person with the SunDevil lower is a good friend whom I worked with in Iraq. We trusted each other and watched each others backs while we were in Al Anbar province. I have no doubt that he did it correctly as I have seen his previous work. Also I should have mentioned that he tried to install it not only with a Magpul supplied roll pin, but also a Colt roll pin. Neither one would go in w/o shaving material from inside the hole.
You are correct, I am not listening, I am reading. I wrote what I did based on his post in another thread where he wrote how he installs the roll-pin for the trigger guard. In that thread/post he left out a crucial step which is support the "ear." He clarified that in this thread. Thanks.
No no no, I was talking to the banned guy, not you.
Wow. Now I see why he was banned. Can I post a picture of a "Lol Cat"??
When an IP posts a thread stating he doesn't want a pissing match, you had better do the smart thing and relieve yourself before typing.
I couldn't agree more. An informed and thoughtful process ought to be applied when purchasing any firearm purchase.
Short story: I purchased a SigArms P220 back in 2003 from a local dealer. After ~200 rounds it became clear that something wasn't right with the slide. The weapon functioned 100% but the alloy lower receiver was showing unusually heavy wear on one side where the slide should have been burnishing the hardened finish. Visual inspection confirmed a burr on the mating surface of the slide. I called SigArms and spoke with their customer service dept. They concurred that the described wear was abnormal and committed to resolve the issue to my satisfaction. They offered me two choices: send it directly to them and they would send me a new pistol (visually inspected to ensure the new one has no such issues) or shoot the pistol I had in hand for the remainder of the warranty (as the wear posed no threat of short term failure) and then return it for the same exchange. Both options would reset my warranty upon receipt of the new pistol. I chose to keep shooting it and send it back for the exchange when the warranty came to an end. Though the pistol never failed the wear increased as I expected it would (removed the hard anodizing along the worn area down to the softer alloy underneath. SigArms followed through their commitment and the replacement pistol had no such issue.
Ok, well, not so short. I've since sold the P220 - I never really shot well with it even though it felt right and pointed naturally well in my hands. The S&W 4506 I replaced it with has been a better fit for me. Outside of my personal preferences though my experience with SigArms was as good and better than my research before initial purchase indicated it would be if required. As I've personally lost interest in Sigs I have no idea if their service is still at this level but I can say that my efforts to make an informed purchase decision paid off when an unlikely fault required the assistance of the manufacturer. Though seeing excessive wear on my new pistol was disconcerting the overall experience was very positive!
I have a friend whose service experience with Smith & Wesson was at least as positive as mine with Sig - they were very responsive!
Nice to hear about the positive experience with BCM!
Very often we see folks who fail to consult the manufacturer prior to wrenching on their new malfunctioning blaster. Some issues can be diagnosed over the phone and a replacement part dropped into the mail free of charge. Sometimes the entire thing needs to go back. If you're polite to the customer service rep, they will often offer to cover the shipping both ways. If not, consider asking. Yes, some companies do have a better track record than others as far as taking care of their customers, but consider giving them a chance to make it right.
Many issues are user induced and can be addressed by reading the manual ahead of time. I know...what a crazy idea.
I have had problems putting the trigger guard pin in some lowers. Some coating types ( ie that on Oly Arms is thicker ) . Yhe type on RRA and Colt thin-normal , take your pick of terms. I groke the Oly Arms ears . Supported. The pin shaved the coating . Of coarse an application of Devcon machinable epoxy solved my problem. On the harder shinnier coatings , clean out the holes first. Parts then fit fine. No . I did not expect the manufacturer to replace my **** up.
this is true wisdom from IG. I have screwed up enough things (not guns) trying to fix things so I don't have to send them back with the hassle it entails. I would have been better to make the return.
Luckily I have not had issues with firearms. But this wisdom applies to non firearms things as well (cars, computers, etc). Even is something is out of warranty, unless you are really an expert in it, consider letting the experts at least look at it.
When I lived in Germany I bought a used Mazda 323. Long past warranty. It started to have issues and I spent a lot more money trying to fix it (because I was scared it would cost a fortune) than it eventually cost me to take it to a dealer and have them diagnose and fix it (needed new spark plug wiring harness was all).
Those companies I have had good CS experiences with really make me feel good about giving them more business. (Not the only reason, but one reason I buy Apple products -- they have always gone above and beyond when I had issues)
So, take IG's wisdom to heart. When your new mark 100 blaster is not working right, avail yourself of the CS of the manufacturer or distributor. And if they have crappy CS, remember that as well in the future. CS is half of what you are buying. Don't keep buying products from those people who don't stick up for their products.
1. If you buy a new AR and it isn't working right-return it. Do not dick with it and try and fix it yourself. Make the manufacturer address the issue. If possible send them an email describing in detail what happened and follow it up with a phone call.
Not agreeing with it, but I can partly see why manufacturers might sometimes be reluctant to jump through hoops to fix a customer's "malfunctioning" gun. Quite often, there's nothing wrong with the gun; the problem is the user. Paying to ship long guns back and forth, paying for ammunition to test it, paying somebody to shoot it and disassemble it and check it over, etc., adds up.
Again, not saying I agree with companies not standing behind their product, because they should, but there are a lot of users out there who should be looking in the mirror in the troubleshooting process before immediately running to the manufacturer for a return shipping label.
abnartyguy
07-27-10, 03:12
Gents,
Entertaining discussion.
I to had a similar situation. I came home from being out of the country for awhile and had a couple of projects waiting for me.
1. A Daniel Defense upper I'd bought through BCM. I was extermely excited about trying it out till I took it to the range and it failed to feed. Bummer. I got on the phone, called DD, they asked me to ship it back and within a week they called me and had figured out the problem(bolt carrier) and shipped it back to me. And I am happy to say it worked flawlessly.:ph34r:
2. I became a proud owner of a Larue OBR. Similar issue, failed to feed. Fearing I was jinxed I called up Larue and they too asked me to ship it to them. Week later I get a call, gas block issue, and a tracking number telling me where it was on its way back home. Once again, worked flawlessly.:ph34r:
3. I'm going to lump these two off-brand AK's together. Why, because they never really worked. (And if you were at a certain LAV AK class you might remember me messing with one of them) And are now someone else's problem. :jester:
Point of my story, reputable companies treat you reputably.
And make a good product. :cool:
Many issues are user induced and can be addressed by reading the manual ahead of time. I know...what a crazy idea.
Yup. :)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4149/4833464733_206d2e9de0_b.jpg
I'd like to say a few things. My intent here was not to bash SunDevil. It was to show different levels of customer service. It was also to impress upon members that they should attempt to have the manufacturer resolve the problem first.
It's hard for anyone to make improvments if they are never told about the problem. How they proceed after that is up to them.
The person with the SunDevil lower is a good friend whom I worked with in Iraq. We trusted each other and watched each others backs while we were in Al Anbar province. I have no doubt that he did it correctly as I have seen his previous work. Also I should have mentioned that he tried to install it not only with a Magpul supplied roll pin, but also a Colt roll pin. Neither one would go in w/o shaving material from inside the hole.
I don't think your story does say very much about Sun Devil's customer service. If I sold a product and someone wanted me to replace it because they buggered it up, I wouldn't want to. Sun Devil is doing the right thing by inspecting the part before giving a replacement or refund. However, I agree that if the person on the telephone doesn't know what they are talking about they shouldn't be answering questions.
It is irrelevant how good of a friend it is that damaged the lower. There are many people who have installed trigger guard pins previously and then broke an ear off of one. I don't see how it is possible to break the ear off if it is supported and the trigger guard is in place. You would have to apply enough force to deform the trigger guard or the material the ear is resting on to get the ear to break while supported. If the diameter of the hole is out of spec, Sun Devil will be able to see so.
Dustin
You're not listening- Iraq Gunz knows all about his friend's problem and saw it. If he says it was more than some Fud banging the ears off then that is what it is. He included details about the holes being not in spec. If he says they weren't then they weren't. If he goes so far as to say it's a mil-spec kit and it shaved off material while trying to insert them then the case is closed.
You need to read exactly what is typed before you post. IraqGunz saw a picture of the lower. There is no way to tell if something is slightly out of spec by a picture. The case is not closed until someone mics the lower and roll pins. There is also no way to prove that the ear was properly supported.
Dustin
You need to read exactly what is typed before you post. IraqGunz saw a picture of the lower. There is no way to tell if something is slightly out of spec by a picture. The case is not closed until someone mics the lower and roll pins. There is also no way to prove that the ear was properly supported.
Dustin
Dustin:
I don't think you mean any harm, but please look at this whole thread and heed my warnings to others. You are calling the integrity of one of our mods, and an industry professional, in to question, however unintentional that may be.
By default if IG believes his friend, who covered his six, when he says he supported the ear, and that it was shaving material and not just anodizing excesses, then we will give him and his friend the benefit of the doubt. Ok?
Thanks,
Ed
Dustin:
I don't think you mean any harm, but please look at this whole thread and heed my warnings to others. You are calling the integrity of one of our mods, and an industry professional, in to question, however unintentional that may be.
By default if IG believes his friend, who covered his six, when he says he supported the ear, and that it was shaving material and not just anodizing excesses, then we will give him and his friend the benefit of the doubt. Ok?
Thanks,
Ed
I am not calling on anyone's integrity be they a moderator, industry professional, or regular guy. I will give his friend the benefit of the doubt, but I don't want people saying the Sun Devil lower is out of spec until it is inspected and measured.
Dustin
I am not calling on anyone's integrity be they a moderator, industry professional, or regular guy.
As I said, it may not be your intention, but factually there is really only one interpretation of your comments. "I do not believe what IG is saying...because I believe XXXXX......" That is a question of integrity.
...I don't want people saying the Sun Devil lower is out of spec until it is inspected and measured.
Dustin
I agree, so at this point we'll state that it is highly unusual that any material, that is noticeable, be removed while installing roll pins in the trigger guard hole or the bolt release hole. On all the forged lowers I've ever assembled, easily over 25, I have never seen any material of note be removed while installing these parts with known quality "mil spec" LPK's. Not once, ever. I have also seen dozens more assembled by others, and supervised on at least 10 more. I have seen some anodizing "flake" off while doing various things quickly to assemble lowers, but never material of note removed using quality lowers and quality LPKs.
So maybe the lower is on the smaller/tighter side of spec and the LPK roll pin was on the larger side of spec but the fact remains that it's highly unusual based on the pool of total assemblies that just two of us in this thread have under our belt.
Now with all that said, it's time to move away from this particular vein in this topic and get back to the actual topic at hand from this thread: Dealing with vendors, and giving them a chance to fix things before wrenching on them yourself.
I had a nice stainless match grade barrel in hand and tried to put a Larue gas block on it. The gas block would not fit. For whatever reason, I assumed the gas block to be undersized. But rather than ruining it with a hammer or posting bile on the interwebs, I mailed the parts for the upper to Larue with a letter describing the build and the project I had embarked upon. A lady from Larue called and said that the gas block was the correct size, but the barrel was slightly oversized. So for a $25 gunsmithing fee, Larue custom fitted one of their gas blocks to my out of spec barrel and assembled the whole upper. Then just to be nice guys, they colored my stainless barrel flat black and mailed the completeed upper back to me.
That is darned good customer service for a problem they never created.
In hindsight, it was a good lesson for IG's friend. He "should have" stopped after one pin was shaving metal.... but I know I most likely wouldn't stop and think it through to an out of spec lower.
IG stopped and sent his upper back instead of continuing.
I wonder how many "bad cases" are just people pissed their new item doesn't work and get butt hurt at the company.
It is just sad that all the good learning experiences usually cost us something nice that we had. I learned this with a CPU that was only made a few of for an older bus speed...... Silicon is not a a good smell when burnt.
ohiorifleman
07-27-10, 13:30
Paying to ship long guns back and forth, paying for ammunition to test it, paying somebody to shoot it and disassemble it and check it over, etc., adds up.
The problem is in some instances when fudds perform stupid human tricks on their rifles, their first inclination is to run to the nearest gun forum and blab about why brand x sucks before talking to the manufacturer. Thank goodness the coc on this site forbids that. The benefits of having rock solid CS far outweigh the costs described in the above post. Lost sales alone on one misguided post could surely pay the CS team's salaries for a week. The brands that are talked about on this forum the most-(in a good way) have all gone way way beyond my expectations as a customer and my set of black rifles (as well as my friends') are in much better mechanical shape since joining this board.
Hopefully the company gets this straightened out. I called SunDevil during the "Obama-rush" about ordering a pink set for the girlfriend. They had great customer service then (at least for the issue of making a sale), but my local shop didn't have good CS at all and I ended up not buying the set anyway.
I can say, to verify IG's integrity on this issue, I have assembled five SunDevil lowers and had a similar problem on both the trigger guard and bolt-catch roll pins using a variety of LPKs and Magpul's roll pins from their aluminum trigger guard. After the first pin, I ended up lubing it extensively and slightly pinching the pin together and using a starter punch. I probably should have been the good consumer and called SunDevil on the issue, but I just presumed they were on the tight end of the tolerance spectrum and so were the LPKs.
Thanks for an informative thread. As somebody in business (not the gun business), there is nothing as irritating as an upset customer who never reported an issue to you. Nine times out of ten, the business wants to get it right and will if you give them an opportunity.
Why not? He did it correctly and the holes were not correct.
I respect your knowledge and by inference, your friend's abilities.
But reaching for a bigger hammer when you're shaving material isn't correct. You ream the hole. So it was not done correctly, as soon as aluminum shavings appeared he should have stopped, not hammered harder.
Sundevil owes him nothing, unless the holes can be mic'ed and be shown to be out of spec. Even so, he caused the damage.
sniperfrog
07-27-10, 19:02
I have a Mega lower that the trigger guard roll pin (I tried several) was not going in and I was afraid of shearing off the ears. I was using a piece of wood but I was having to hammer a little too hard and the pin wouldn't budge. I ended up using a Magpul MIAD grip with the integral trigger guard. I'm thinking now maybe I should call Mega.
For the record, I pretty much told him the same. It still doesn't change the fact that the holes were the incorrect size. At least in my opinion.
I respect your knowledge and by inference, your friend's abilities.
But reaching for a bigger hammer when you're shaving material isn't correct. You ream the hole. So it was not done correctly, as soon as aluminum shavings appeared he should have stopped, not hammered harder.
Sundevil owes him nothing, unless the holes can be mic'ed and be shown to be out of spec. Even so, he caused the damage.
Sundevil owes him nothing, unless the holes can be mic'ed and be shown to be out of spec. Even so, he caused the damage.
Sometimes when a company doesn't owe you anything is when they really shine with outstanding customer service. Bring the issue to them and at least see what they have to say. The worst they can do is nothing.
True, but...
I am sure ANY manufacture would rather get back a lower that needs a quick ream and (maybe) some anodizing as opposed to a paper weight.
Once you have broken something of your own doing, you can't really blame the maker. If they come through it is awesome, but I personally would expect to be paying out of my own pocket.
Also, once you have pounded a pin through the hole, there is NO WAY to make any measurement worth a damn in resolving this issue, so I don't think any determination could even be made at this point (I designed machinery for 15 years, so I have been through these issues many times).
spookydurant
07-28-10, 21:55
I'm Eric, IG's friend whom he is regarding in this post. All I can say and do is post my pics for you guys to see. As you will see, inside the trigger guard ear is a amount of aluminum on the outer perimeter of the hole as if the hole was re-bored by the roll pin. I did use a factory roll pin that came with the LPK and it was hard to start, so I switched to a Magpul roll pin from an enhanced trigger guard....still hard to install. Bear in mind roll pins contract and expand. The other pic needs to be zoomed in, but the hole near the bolt catch has been reamed on the perimeter as well. I have put together a Larue lower and installed a UBR on a Magpul lower that I own and I didnt have any problems with these projects. The one thing that IG will stress in any maintanance or assembly with ANYTHING......is that if it is not assembling gently, take a break and re-adjust. The roll pins going into the Sun Devil were hard as hell to go in. The Larue assembled with some light taps.
As well, please see the pics with the pistol grip. This is a mil-spec pistol grip and it does not align properly. If you align it against the reciever at the top, it does not align to the side and vice-versa. Regardless of this reciever being assembled with no issues, I would still not approve of gaps between the reciever and pistol grip.
As of now, SDM seems to think that it is a faulty LPK. Upon inspecting the lower, they have stated that "their" GI pistol grip fits perfectly. As well I have been told by the lady answering the phone, that there are out of spec roll pins floating around, regardless if I tried different ones to try to find a better fit. I am not bashing SDM, but I would like comments or opinions on this to see how wrong or right I am. Thanks, ED
Sounds like they blew you off. I'll never buy from them. All it takes is being shitty to one guy like that and blowing him off and I'll never bother with them. Too many quality companies out there with owners that are willing to be on forums like this and be happy to help when there's a problem. Looks like they sold enough lowers that month. They just don't care about you. Glad I don't like their lowers anyway.
spookydurant
07-28-10, 22:08
As well, I clearly stated to SDM.....I own a Magpul AR, a KAC, 2 Noveskes, 2 LMT's..............and so on.....Hence, I wasnt looking to get something for nothing. I just wanted them to identify this issue and so far they seem to deny that it could be a faulty lower.
ICANHITHIMMAN
07-28-10, 22:21
I got my upper fixed for free. It was a simple issue of a spot weld not holding on the dust cover. I could have fixed it but they said they would and they paid the shipping. I will not go into what happned after that but they did make it right in the end just took a few months is all.
I liked your thread
Spooky, totally off topic (and I need to pm you about a pistol shoot this weekend if you are CONUS) but I was completely impressed by a certain company named Vltor. There had been a lingering question on here for sometime on whether or not if a dd 12.0 omega x rail would fit with one of their newest sight towers. I finally got tired of wondering (b/c I have the same rail) and called Vltor and spoke to a fellow named Blaine. Halfway though our conversation he explained to me that he and others from his company had been watching threads on here concerning this same topic. It just impressed me that these guys have been searching through threads and looking for feedback on their products. Long story short, threads like this that IG started I believe are not only looked at by us, the consumer, but the good companies out there look for feedback on their own products as well and hopefully this will translate into a better product in the long run. That is a good thing for the guy spending the coin. Vltor great job.
MarshallDodge
07-28-10, 22:49
Good post IG.
Whenever I call a customer service I always try to be honest and present the facts. Sometimes this well help you and others not so much but I think honesty is always the best policy, both from the user and the company.
Last year my son was using my Hornady 30-06 dies to size brass. While doing this he got a case stuck and proceeded to tear off the rim. During the process of extrication I bent the decapping pin assy. I am not sure if this is a problem with their dies or how I typically pull stuck cases but I have a set of Hornady 270 dies that a friend sold me for cheap after he bent the pin assy. on his. I called Hornady and told them exactly what happened and how it happened and the gal said that the replacement parts for both sets were in the mail at no charge. Very cool.
Recently I called a handgun maker, who has a lifetime guarantee on their pistols and is very popular on this forum, about a problem that I was having with one of their guns. The customer service person, who had the personality of a knotted log, asked me if I was the original owner. I told them that I was not but that I had bought the gun with only 70 rounds through it and had put another 1400 rounds through it before the problems started. I told him that I knew that the part in question had been upgraded in the latest models and he said that if I wanted the part that I would have to purchase it because I was not the original owner. He proceeded to lie and tell me that the part in question had not been upgraded.
My feelings toward this company started to grow a little cold at this point. This was the seventh handgun that I had purchased bearing their name and their C.S. was not what I expected. I left a message for the head of C.S. but I never heard back so I went ahead and purchased the replacement part. When I received it there was a definite difference between the original and the new one. The symptom of this particular problem also seems to have disappeared.
I ended up sending an email to them regarding what I had found with the replacement and a question about another issue that I am not certain if it is something I am doing or a defect. They did get back to me promptly and told me to call C.S. to send the gun back for evaluation. This was last week and I have not had a chance to call them during the day due to my work schedule. Hopefully they will fix the issue and my confidence in the company will return.
I wanted to update this thread since the owner is OCONUS at the moment. Sun Devil Arms replaced the lower, they didn't repair it. They also said that it was due to him not properly supporting the trigger guard area. Strangely enough they didn't address the issue of why the pistol grip didn't fit properly or why the trigger guard had issues.
In the end he got it fixed.
Not an AR fix but great example of customer service: I bought an Aimpoint ML3 on the EE and it was a great price. I got it, went to put it on the gun and it worked off and on. I emailed Aimpoint, explained I had bought it used. They responded and mailed me a fresh battery cap for free and asked me to follow up if that didn't fix it. I was blown away! THAT is customer service!
I sell "Arborceuticals" and application equipment to tree care professionals. As a whole they are not gentle on things.
I always tell my clients 'If you are not 100% happy with a product or service of mine, let me know and I will make it right" I Live by that statement.
even when I clients calls and tells me they broke an item by misuse, I replace it. I am always on my clients side. I always have their best interests at heart.
Revenue for my territory has doubled in 2 years. Treating my clientele right is the reason why.
I wanted to update this thread since the owner is OCONUS at the moment. Sun Devil Arms replaced the lower, they didn't repair it. They also said that it was due to him not properly supporting the trigger guard area. Strangely enough they didn't address the issue of why the pistol grip didn't fit properly or why the trigger guard had issues.
In the end he got it fixed.
Thanks for the update IG. I'm glad your friend got this situation resolved, and that the outcome was a positive one.
ztf HITMAN
10-09-10, 08:42
Any manufacturer who believes 100% in their product will provide excellent CS. That CS, in turn, produces quality , and good word-of-mouth reviews. The willingness to stand behind their product and make the customer happy will keep us coming back.
That is why I'm a BCM user. A friend of mine recently had an exceptional CS experience with Daniel Defense, as well.
Magic_Salad0892
10-09-10, 09:06
As well, I clearly stated to SDM.....I own a Magpul AR, a KAC, 2 Noveskes, 2 LMT's..............and so on.....
I hate you. :)
BTW: I don't think any of the ''top tier'' (BCM, DD, KAC, LMT, Noveske...)manufacturers would be regarded as high as they are if their CS was lame. In fact, that's the second most important part of a company's offering. IMO.
1 - Product
2 - Customer Service
3 - Price
4 - Availability
5 - Warranty Type
Before I got on this site, I had truly begun to believe that it was a disappearing art. After listening to the advice of this site I found stores like Troy, BCM, Larue, G&R and SKD to name a few. These guys know and understand customer service. If I had a problem or issue or even a simple question (which I seem to have LOTS of), it was addressed quickly and accurately. I have had my fair share of issues with companies (not going to blast them on here) and have personally decided not to do business with them and if a friend, co-worker or family memeber asks, I tell them my story and let them make the decision.
Revenue for my territory has doubled in 2 years. Treating my clientele right is the reason why.
You'd be surprised what a little bit will do. I had a company give me the runaround for $10 in shipping because they sent me the wrong part and wanted me to pay to send the item back. I was just about to pull the trigger on a $500 order with them. G&R got that order, plus some, instead.
I would like to post my own Sun Devil experience.
I visited their shop and had a brief tour in late 06 or early 07, nice people. Saw a lot of the stuff they made for the S&W M&P15PC at the time.
I bought 3 or 4 of their receivers and used them in builds over the next few years. I was a fan of the company because a) they were nice people, b) they were in AZ, and c) I thought they made a damn fine product.
The last receiver I bought - and it will be the last receiver of theirs that I ever buy - had oversized trigger/hammer pin holes. The trigger pin would walk out after about 15-20 rounds had been fired, and the weapon would stop functioning. To put things in perspective, every single pin I had - including some I pulled from a BCM lower, and others from a small pin Colt lower - practically fell through the receiver when no FCG components were inside.
Sun Devil's response? "Get KNS pins. Or use mil-spec parts like DPMS. We've never heard of this before." Never mind the fact that several folks on ARFCOM had already contacted them about this exact issue in the past, or that I had used dozens of pins to verify the issue and had measured the holes and they were indeed oversized - "go buy KNS pins." And they told me this in person! Did I mention that their big selling point is "no dimensional inconsistencies"? What a joke of a company. They kept talking as I walked away, but I was so pissed that I wasn't listening.
So yes, it's entirely believable to me that a Sun Devil trigger guard roll pin hole would be out of spec, and it's also entirely believable that an expert - or even some laymen - could identify an undersized hole from a photo, especially by looking at the amount of material shaved away from the hole.
And it's also entirely believable to me that Sun Devil would offer poor customer service - though it seems that at least in this case, they rectified the situation, if a little bit late.
I had an issue with a brand new LMT lower. The trigger fired when it should have reset. They sent me some parts at my request and the problem persisted. Then I mailed the upper back, the whole fire control group was replaced and the lower was tested on 6 uppers before it was returned to me. They took care of me well and I appreciate it.
This thread almost cries out for another ranking in Rob_s's famous chart for customer service.
Sure, it wouldn't work but if it could work it would be useful.
Even the little things make a difference in perception of a company. I recently purchased a UBR from a bulk vendor (not from Magpul direct). It came in a sealed package, but during assembly it became clear that a part was missing. I emailed Magpul asking if I could purchase a replacement part separately, and within minutes they responded by telling me a replacement would be on the way at no charge. Most likely not their fault, and they still stepped up.
Anecdotal evidence does not make for final judgment on a company's CS, but you sure can see a pattern emerge from reading though this forum.
I admit to being guilty of never relying on a firearm company's CS. As a former airplane mechanic, I am kind of like the father in "A Christmas Story" when he has a flat tire with a gun with a problem.
I kind of relish the trouble-shooting and fixing involved with making a problem gun go.
Plus, the whole hassle to get a firearm shipped to and from a company thing.
You can ship a firearm directly to the manufacturer and they can ship it directly back to you for repairs/work. No FFL necessary.
I had a Bravo Company upper receiver that was not mating up properly to some of my lowers as well as the lower for the person whose rifle I was converting to a flat top carbine. I contacted Paul and explained the problem. He replied almost immediately and sent me a new one. Now that is service! He could have blown me off or said deal with it. But, BCM stepped up and did the right thing. I could have easily played with it a little to make it fit, but I shouldn't have to do it.
Shifting gears a bit, and this question befuddles me, but how does that happen? I have never experienced something as described. How is does an upper from what is allegedly a company that seems to have a very good following and builds rifles for the 'professional' have an upper that doesn't mate to a lower? How? I am assuming the multiple lowers offered were from 'reputable' companies, so the problem is in the upper receiver.
I have never had a Colt that did not 'mate up' to one of my M16 lowers. Never, whether it was made 45 years ago or last week. Getting back in the day, had a few H&R and GM units that would go right on a Colt lower and vice versa.
Never had an LWRC that didn't either, and I have had about 6-7. First couple of Barrett's REC7's have been perfect. Never had a Knight's that didn't mate up. Nor an FN upper.
Not trying to get anyone's feathers ruffled, but I don't get it. Is this 'aftermarket' AR15 thing like the ongoing and raging M1A debate of who has a 'mil spec' type receiver or who doesn't? Is there that much difference with some AR15 manufacturers and their respective machining processes or are some running the tooling beyond spec on their CNC's?
Coleslaw
I had a Colt upper that would not fit on any milspec lower. Colt made tons of them. On purpose.
You obviously want to take a jab at BCM. So to answer your question when was the last time you bought a stripped upper from the companies you mentioned? Because it was a stripped upper.
BCM is not "allegedly" a good company. They are in fact a good company and build good stuff. If you think that no manufacture including the ones you have mentioned don't make mistakes you are wrong.
As a matter of fact I know of a few LWRC guns that wouldn't run right.
As for the rest of your statement/ question there is enough proof of it right here. Do some reading and explore it for yourself.
This question befuddles me, but how does that happen? How is does an upper from what is allegedly a company that seems to have a very good following and builds rifles for the 'professional' have an upper that doesn't mate to a lower? How? I am assuming the multiple lowers offered were from 'reputable' companies, so the problem is in the upper receiver.
I have never had a Colt that did not 'mate up' to one of my M16 lowers. Never, whether it was made 45 years ago or last week. For that matter, never had an LWRC that didn't either, and I have had about 6-7. First couple of Barrett's REC7's have been perfect, in fact as you may have noticed from previous posts, my current fave. Never had a Knight's that didn't mate up. Nor an FN upper. Getting back in the day, had a few H&R and GM units that would go right on a Colt lower and vice versa.
Not trying to get anyones feathers ruffled, but I don't get it. Is this 'aftermarket' AR15 thing like the ongoing and raging M1A debate of who has a 'mil spec' type eceiver or who doesn't? Is there that much difference with some AR15 manufacturers and their respective machining processes or are some running the tooling beyond spec on their CNC's?
Really what? If you have a something constructive to add then do so. If not then find another thread to stir the pot in.
Really?
You obviously want to take a jab at BCM. So to answer your question when was the last time you bought a stripped upper from the companies you mentioned? Because it was a stripped upper.
Sorry, but your interpretation of my statmets are incorrect. I am not wanting to take a stab at anyone and am not sure how you gleaned that from my post. I just read some of these posts about various manufacturers and I am curious. As I stated, BCM has a good following so I assumed that they deliver a good product. From reading posts on this forum, that seems to be the case. I just have never experienced an upper receiever from one of the companies I mentioned, stripped or not, that would not mate to a Colt M16 lower. I will grant you that some listed were not in great quantity, but they all fit nevertheless.
BCM is not "allegedly" a good company. They are in fact a good company and build good stuff. If you think that no manufacture including the ones you have mentioned don't make mistakes you are wrong.
As a matter of fact I know of a few LWRC guns that wouldn't run right.
As for the rest of your statement/ question there is enough proof of it right here. Do some reading and explore it for yourself.
Again, not saying BCM or anyone else is not a good company. Apparently you know the people that own it, and I am not trying to pick on them specifically. It is just surprising to me what you said, so much so that I inquired about it.
I also never said that other companies don't make mistakes, that is a given. Referencing "a few LWRC guns that wouldn't run right", I don't disagree, but that wan't the topic. The topic was 'mating up' a lower to an upper and I never have had a problem in that area and I am curious as to why you did, nothing more, nothing less.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the problem was?
I inferred it from your post where you used the term "allegedly" when you were speaking of their stuff.
I only met the owner earlier this year. But, I was using their stuff even before that.
Essentially the issue was that the rear take down pin hole was drilled slightly off center. I don't know if they are made in house or whether they get them from an outside vendor is can be the case with many different parts or manufacturers, etc..
Bottom line is I addressed it and it was taken care of. No excuses or blabbering. I had a situation with a DD M4 back in 2008 (non staked castle nut) and they also stepped up. No excuses. They offered to pay shipping both ways to stake it. I declined for obvious reasons. My sole purpose in contacting them was to find out why it wasn't done. They could have blown me off, but they didn't.
Sorry, but your interpretation of my statmets are incorrect. I am not wanting to take a stab at anyone and am not sure how you gleaned that from my post. I just read some of these posts about various manufacturers and I am curious. As I stated, BCM has a good following so I assumed that they deliver a good product. From reading posts on this forum, that seems to be the case. I just have never experienced an upper receiever from one of the companies I mentioned, stripped or not, that would not mate to a Colt M16 lower. I will grant you that some listed were not in great quantity, but they all fit nevertheless.
Again, not saying BCM or anyone else is not a good company. Apparently you know the people that own it, and I am not trying to pick on them specifically. It is just surprising to me what you said, so much so that I inquired about it.
I also never said that other companies don't make mistakes, that is a given. Referencing "a few LWRC guns that wouldn't run right", I don't disagree, but that wan't the topic. The topic was 'mating up' a lower to an upper and I never have had a problem in that area and I am curious as to why you did, nothing more, nothing less.
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what the problem was?
Coleslaw
I had a Colt upper that would not fit on any milspec lower. Colt made tons of them. On purpose.
Really what? If you have a something constructive to add then do so. If not then find another thread to stir the pot in.
usmcvet's statement was bold. I am curious as to what evidence he has to support that claim.
Iraqgunz, I don't know why I am coming across to you as 'stirring the pot'. My questions are not intended to be problamatic, nor critical to any one individual or manufacturer. Perhaps my delivery is not up to snuff? I apoligize if that is the case.
Do you not find usmcvet's statement needing clarification?
The thread is a about coustomer service. Not quality control. Tell us about Colt and LWRC customer service experiences you've had.
I don't own an LWRC but had an afternoon to shoot their uppers wit one of their reps Jeff I was sold in their products then and there. They took the time and effort to take me and a few guys who work at a local gun shop shooting. We had a chance to run one of their lowers and two of their PSD super short uppers hard. One was 6.8 and one was 5.56 we did a lot of full auto fire that day and those guns ran great.
I never bought an upper or gun from them but they created a great relationship and I have good things to say about them. We have a relationship.
Robb Jensen
10-10-10, 08:46
I'm fairly certain usmcvet was referring the Colt making the large pivot pin uppers on purpose to not fit mil-spec lowers.
usmcvet's statement was bold. I am curious as to what evidence he has to support that claim.
Iraqgunz, I don't know why I am coming across to you as 'stirring the pot'. My questions are not intended to be problamatic, nor critical to any one individual or manufacturer. Perhaps my delivery is not up to snuff? I apoligize if that is the case.
Do you not find usmcvet's statement needing clarification?
It is part of why I will not buy Colt. I woukd say it was more a marketing choice than a customer service decision.
They chose to make products to appease the gun grabbers. They made large pin uppers and lowers, removed bayonet lugs, removed the fence from around the mag release and left a bunch of material in the lowers and changed pin sizes all in an attempt to make the gun grabbers happy. It did not work. So it is a personal thing win me. I won't buy the Pony. If some one asks me what to buy at the local gun shop I suggest a Colt or S&W because they are the two best guns be carries. If you ask me what I like it is LMT of BCM.
All of the Colt guns I see are still marked Law Enforcement/Government Use Only. That irritates me.
Colt makes great stuff. They just lost me as a customers because of what they've done to the consumer in the past.
It is part of why I will not buy Colt. I woukd say it was more a marketing choice than a customer service decision.
They chose to make products to appease the gun grabbers. They made large pin uppers and lowers, removed bayonet lugs, removed the fence from around the mag release and left a bunch of material in the lowers and changed pin sizes all in an attempt to make the gun grabbers happy. It did not work. So it is a personal thing win me. I won't buy the Pony. If some one asks me what to buy at the local gun shop I suggest a Colt or S&W because they are the two best guns be carries. If you ask me what I like it is LMT of BCM.
All of the Colt guns I see are still marked Law Enforcement/Government Use Only. That irritates me.
Colt makes great stuff. They just lost me as a customers because of what they've done to the consumer in the past.
Do you buy Winchester ammo?
The thread is a about coustomer service. Not quality control.
I beg to differ as they go hand in hand. You will need little of the first if you can stay on top of the latter.
I'm fairly certain usmcvet was referring the Colt making the large pivot pin uppers on purpose to not fit mil-spec lowers.
Ok, I get it. He is correct, but a little history for those that weren't around. IIRC, the first AR15 came out in 1966, and as a concession to the ATF, Colt did a few things to differentiate between an M16 and an AR15 to include the large front pivot pin, semi bolt carrier, no mag release fence. Noticeable differences that by today's standard really don't amount to much relative to concessions. Understand though, that was 44 years ago when all the other companies mentioned here were not even a forethought, nothing. How many here were even around 44 years ago?
Remember the "G" series FAL imported by Browning in the early 60's? A machine gun receiver granted an 'amnesty' in the serial # range. How about the Hk 41 in the early to mid 60's? Same deal. Colt could not get away with marketing a domestically produced weapon that could be construed a 'machine gun' receiever - per se. ATF was not gonna get caught with their pants down on this one, the AR15.
It is part of why I will not buy Colt. I woukd say it was more a marketing choice than a customer service decision.They chose to make products to appease the gun grabbers. They made large pin uppers and lowers, removed bayonet lugs, removed the fence from around the mag release and left a bunch of material in the lowers and changed pin sizes all in an attempt to make the gun grabbers happy. It did not work. So it is a personal thing win me. I won't buy the Pony. If some one asks me what to buy at the local gun shop I suggest a Colt or S&W because they are the two best guns be carries. If you ask me what I like it is LMT of BCM.
All of the Colt guns I see are still marked Law Enforcement/Government Use Only. That irritates me.
Colt makes great stuff. They just lost me as a customers because of what they've done to the consumer in the past.
I think your vitriol directed towards Colt is misguided. Remember, Colt is two companies, and under the Clinton administration and the AWB, some were trying to keep their doors open. Most if not all of the companies you mention were also not even a thought during that time either.
It is easy for us to be armchair quarterbacks, but many don't have a clue to what actually is going on, particularly in each individual business. In Colt’s case, I will cede that the change in ownership and/or leadership on more than one occasion did not bode well for civilian wants, but it is what it is. They sure weren’t Bill Ruger. Also remember, suppling M16's to the DoD have always taken precedence over anything in the civilian market and always will. Period. None of us are at the top of the list in getting their wants met by Colt. If we were, some of the other companies mentioned here may not even be viable. Just a thought.
I do buy Winchester ammo. I have Ranger SXT ammo and Ranger slugs in my duty and personal guns.
The Black Talon issue was a smart move by them and the new ammo is just as effective. They toned down their marketing changed the color of their ammo and the stuff is pretty much the same but the anti gunners went away. What Winchester did had no negative effect on their ammo. Colt changed their guns so they would not work with other guns with out special parts.
These are not the Droids you're looking for worked for Winchester. It did not work for Colt. I am openly saying I will not spend my money on a Colt. I sold that Colt A2 for $400 a few months before the ban because I needed to fix my car. I wish I sold it a few months later I could have sold it for $1,200 and bought a new/used car.
I know they make good stuff and I tell people that. It is how I choose to spend my money. Spend yours how you choose. It is just a preference I also like Chevy trucks.
Back on topic. In my experience Wincester also has awesome customer service. They've come up to little VT a few times and done demo testing and shooting with us.
I do buy Winchester ammo. I have Ranger SXT ammo and Ranger slugs in my duty and personal guns.
The Black Talon issue was a smart move by them and the new ammo is just as effective. They toned down their marketing changed the color of their ammo and the stuff is pretty much the same but the anti gunners went away. What Winchester did had no negative effect on their ammo. Colt changed their guns so they would not work with other guns with out special parts.
These are not the Droids you're looking for worked for Winchester. It did not work for Colt. I am openly saying I will not spend my money on a Colt. I sold that Colt A2 for $400 a few months before the ban because I needed to fix my car. I wish I sold it a few months later I could have sold it for $1,200 and bought a new/used car.
I know they make good stuff and I tell people that. It is how I choose to spend my money. Spend yours how you choose. It is just a preference I also like Chevy trucks.
Back on topic. In my experience Wincester also has awesome customer service. They've come up to little VT a few times and done demo testing and shooting with us.
So it bugs you that Colts are marked LE/Mil - but not caring who buys them - but you don't mind Winchester actively prohibiting its distributors from selling its best ammo to people who aren't in LE?
87GN
I did not know Winchester ammo had an issue with their ammo and civilians. In the shop I buy most of my ammo at the SXT is on the shelf along with everything else any one can buy it. I know if I buy a box for myself the only difference I see is in price, I pay FET and State Sales tax and the PD does not. I know TAP used to do the same thing with their ammo, I am not sure if they still do. I know Hornady has gone so far as to buy ammo online that was supposed to be LE only and shut off the folks selling it.
Coleslaw
I bought a Bushmaster XM-15 in either late ’96 or early ’97. It was my second AR and I loved it. I bought the gun on department letterhead and used that gun until a year ago when I sold it. I never liked the LE/Mil only markings. It left a bad AWB taste in my mouth.
COLT MAKES AWESOME GUNS. I just do not want to buy one. I carried one in the Corps and we have a few at work. I have trusted my life to them in the past and do today. Colt is good to go, just not for me.
I made the comment about Colt big hole uppers because you seemed like a no it all and were slamming BCM while throwing around the big dollar named guns and were befuddled by how an upper and lower would not mate up. I thought it was ironic. You allude to your M16’s, LWRC’s, KAC, FN, H&R and GM sweet high dollar guns/uppers. Cool you have some nice guns. I am happy for you.
You go on to use the words allegedly, professional and reputable. Your post drips with snobbery. Just because it does not cost $2,000 to $20,000 does not mean it is not a great gun.
When you said everything from a 45 year old Colt upper to one made last week would always fit mil spec lowers with no problem. I called foul. It is clearly not true. Colt built lots of guns/uppers with the intention of them not fitting mil spec guns/uppers.
Any mil spec lower/upper will fit unless there is a problem. The OP had an issue and BCM took care of it immediately. That is the point. EVERY company has issues it is what they do when they surface that is important and the point of this thread. If we want to have a thread about what we like or dislike about a brand let’s start one up.
I wish I was old enough to buy machineguns when they were priced right. I am 38 so I was about 14 when the window started closing on the affordable machineguns. I have two SBR’s that is as close as I will come to a machine. One is an LMT one is a BCM my third AR is a BLT, Bravo Upper and LMT lower.
You said you were not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers and asked if this was an aftermarket thing implying BCM is aftermarket?
Again Colt makes awesome guns. So does BCM and LMT. I can tell you I have personal experience with all three and experience with the customer service of BCM & LMT. I’ve never had an issue with my BCM guns, I did with LMT. LMT took care of me and they cemented our relationship. I've also had a problem with a few Marlin guns I've owned and they took care of them right away for free. They have a customer for life too.
Perhaps you're confusing me with someone else?
ztf HITMAN
10-10-10, 13:38
I'm gonna try to get back on topic here with my $.02....Every manufacturer CANNOT put out a 100% perfect product. Logistically, it's impossible. Through the QA/QC dep'ts, some companies shine more than others by letting fewer out-of-spec products through. Inevitably, some products make it out to the market with some imperfections. The difference then becomes what that company does to right any wrongs. Once again, some companies shine more than others in this area, which is where this topic started.
It's not about Colt using proprietary parts. The end-user makes the decision on whether to make a purchase such as this or not. Personally, I chose to put my stock in BCM, because you hear little to no bad stories about CS. I am also getting first-hand info on great CS with Daniel Defense, as well. I guess, in the end, different customers have different priorities, but CS is very high on my list...
--Hitman--
Coleslaw
I bought a Bushmaster XM-15 in either late ’96 or early ’97. It was my second AR and I loved it. I bought the gun on department letterhead and used that gun until a year ago when I sold it. I never liked the LE/Mil only markings. It left a bad AWB taste in my mouth.
COLT MAKES AWESOME GUNS. I just do not want to buy one. I carried one in the Corps and we have a few at work. I have trusted my life to them in the past and do today. Colt is good to go, just not for me.
I made the comment about Colt big hole uppers because you seemed like a no it all and were slamming BCM while throwing around the big dollar named guns and were befuddled by how an upper and lower would not mate up. I thought it was ironic. You allude to your M16’s, LWRC’s, KAC, FN, H&R and GM sweet high dollar guns/uppers. Cool you have some nice guns. I am happy for you.
To be honest, Colt large hole uppers are not truly 'mil spec' - that term again. They do not fit on an M16 receiver. That being said, I have never had a Colt AR15 big hole upper that did not fit on a Colt big hole lower.
To be clear, I was not patting myself on the back mentioning some of those firearms. Just making a statement that Colt military uppers always fit on Colt military lowers as well as the other makers and vice versa.
You go on to use the words allegedly, professional and reputable. Your post drips with snobbery. Just because it does not cost $2,000 to $20,000 does not mean it is not a great gun.
That was not my intention. Many of the companies you and I both mentioned offer fine products. I just couldn't understand how a CNC machined upper doesn't fit on a CNC machined lower with all things being equal. Doesn't it seem odd? The only reasons could come up with are worn cutting tools or an incorrect program.
When you said everything from a 45 year old Colt upper to one made last week would always fit mil spec lowers with no problem. I called foul. It is clearly not true. Colt built lots of guns/uppers with the intention of them not fitting mil spec guns/uppers.
I thought I made it clear, but I suppose I didn't. I was referring to M16 uppers/lowers. I think it is evident and as I explained the reasons for the changes to the original AR15 series from Colt.
Any mil spec lower/upper will fit unless there is a problem. The OP had an issue and BCM took care of it immediately. That is the point. EVERY company has issues it is what they do when they surface that is important and the point of this thread. If we want to have a thread about what we like or dislike about a brand let’s start one up.
That was exactly my question, what was the problem and it was answered. I am still curious how the rear take down pin hole was off on the upper, if a reason was given.
I wish I was old enough to buy machineguns when they were priced right. I am 38 so I was about 14 when the window started closing on the affordable machineguns. I have two SBR’s that is as close as I will come to a machine. One is an LMT one is a BCM my third AR is a BLT, Bravo Upper and LMT lower.
You are old enough now, and it is a good time to buy. Prices are pretty flat and I occasionally see some incremental drops. Priced right is relative, so I urge anyone if they can put it together to take the plunge.
You said you were not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers and asked if this was an aftermarket thing implying BCM is aftermarket?
Again Colt makes awesome guns. So does BCM and LMT. I can tell you I have personal experience with all three and experience with the customer service of BCM & LMT. I’ve never had an issue with my BCM guns, I did with LMT. LMT took care of me and they cemented our relationship. I've also had a problem with a few Marlin guns I've owned and they took care of them right away for free. They have a customer for life too.
It may be my mistake, but I generally look at arms of this type made for civilian consumption as aftermarket, and that is including the stuff I own too. So, this isn’t directed as a slight at anyone or any company. Perhaps ‘aftermarket’ is the incorrect term, I don’t know. That is not to say that some of these manufacturers stuff isn’t as good or better than the DoD currently purchases, only that they haven’t. I am not talking small batches for testing/trials or small unit or individiual purchase, etc.
Should I glean from your statements regarding CS that you are not an Hk fan?
Should I glean from your statements regarding CS that you are not an Hk fan?
Well, at least from what I have seen, if you desire CS, being an HK fan can be pretty rough.
I have never owned an HK. I know some companies get so big they often loose track of how important CS is to the little guys. I have heard horror stories about HK too. I know Remington has a bad rap in my local gun shop. The owner had a sign printed up about it and it hangs behind the counter in his shop. I will try and remember to get a photo of it. The sign warns if you buy a Remington you are on your own for warranty problems because their CS is awful.
Good point you bring up. It is amazing how from shop to shop you have such a wide expanse of opinions realtive to CS, or what is a good product or a POS. Generally there is no in between, either it is the bomb or garbage.
Allot of the info flying around gun shops is rumor with no basis in fact, and should be taken with a grain of salt. "I heard this", or "I know a guy" type stuff. Do your own research.
As a note, I have never had a problem with Remington.
Id like to add Rainier.
Bought a Mega billet upper like 6-8 months ago. Finally got around to installing it and the Larue rail didnt fit (as I found out is common).
They told me to ship it back (Wayyyy outside the 30-60 day window) and I got a different upper.
Very nice group. I was going to buy my DD Mk18 RISII rail from them the other day but was sad they only carry the FDE an I wanted black. So I ordered it from my other favorite company, Bravo Company:D
Good point you bring up. It is amazing how from shop to shop you have such a wide expanse of opinions realtive to CS, or what is a good product or a POS. Generally there is no in between, either it is the bomb or garbage.
Allot of the info flying around gun shops is rumor with no basis in fact, and should be taken with a grain of salt. "I heard this", or "I know a guy" type stuff. Do your own research.
As a note, I have never had a problem with Remington.
I have never had an issue with Remington either. I've had several shotguns an LT20 and a few 870 12 guage shotguns as well as two 7600 pumps. I do not remember the model but Remington had a cheap bolt gun out a few years ago and they had some problems with them. The shop I go to replaced several with guns in stock and gave credit on others. He ended up eating several and had to wait months for repairs and then bad used guns to sell. I think that is where the sign came from.
This is the same ship where I bang my head against the wall over the chart and where I had to explain a few times what the difference was between a commercial Vs. Mil-Spec extension.
Littlelebowski
12-26-10, 09:15
I'm resolving (hopefully) a problem with Remington now regarding my 597 .17 HMR having an OOB on me and cutting me up a little. We shall see what happens.
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