View Full Version : In IDPA and Conflicted
I've been shooting IDPA semi-regularly for several years now, and during most of the past 4 years almost exclusively using a G19. This is also my primary HD gun, as well as regular carry during all but the hottest weather. I also used to shoot USPSA going back to the mid-90's (mostly with full-size 1911's that I rarely carried) , but when IDPA came around I liked that it was centered on self defense and that I could meaningfully participate in it with a carryable gun. Also -- and without any regard to competitive performance -- there is no doubt that my familiarity and confidence in gun handling is far greater than it would be otherwise. But.....
....with the G19 I also have been utterly mired at the Sharpshooter level in SSP division. Although I have simulated Expert a few times in practice "mock" classifiers", I usually fall far short of it there, and have never made it during the real thing at a match, also by a wide margin.
I practice as much as I am able to between work, family, and other commitments, and I think at this point am fairly well educated on at least the basics of shooting technique. Whatever I was doing during those couple of practices though I don't seem to be able to reliably duplicate.
IDPA has also become more "racey" since I first started, IMO. Many fellow shooters I have come to know during the period have eventually made Expert in SSP, but apparently all using full-sized and often competition-specific guns like the G34, or more recently the M&P9 Pro. Many don't understand why I should want to "handicap" myself with the G19, and aren't surprised that I'm stuck at Sharpshooter using it. With one classifier after another (whether at a match or in practice) having the same tediously predictable result, I'm beginning to wonder myself.
So then I ponder: should I get one of those long-slide guns with a lightened trigger and optic-fiber sights? Would that get me out of the rut and on to becoming an Expert shooter? Or alternatively, have I reached my natural level of ability which no equipment upgrade could mitigate (and BTW at age 52, with definitely fading eyesight and likely also reflexes, is entirely possible) .
Additionally though is an examination of my original interest and desire to participate in the first place. Is it more "right" to stick with my "real" gun, and disregard any effects on my competitive standing?
Well anyway, this has all been rather a rant so thanks for subjecting your ear to it. Any related experiences or thoughts are welcomed.
Jay Cunningham
07-26-10, 13:09
If you have a personal goal of getting better at the game, then do what it takes to get better at the game. If you feel you are experiencing a plateau due to equipment, then adjust your equipment.
If you have a different goal than getting better at the game, I would caution you against changing your current gear.
I went through something like this a year ago. Used to only shoot 5" 1911's, switched to the M&P9, and had the same scores. I was stuck at expert for awhile shooting a "P-T.com" clone M&P9. Most (ok all) of my expert and master class friends were using 5" guns, 3 lb triggers to shoot IDPA, then strapping on G26s or M&P9c or Officer's 1911s to carry. I stuck with it, did a ton of dry fire drills, shot more, and finally made master in SSP this year. Now, my M&P9 gun is pretty damn smooth, but it still has a 6 lb trigger, and is not a race gun.
For grins, I shot a few classifiers with my G19 ("-" connector, NY1 combo - maybe 6.5 # trigger). I added all of 2 seconds.
I'll occasionally shoot their race G34s, M&P9pros, etc. I do about the same.
I'm not quite as fast in splits as my friends. But I drop way less points - stage I and II are 0-2 points down. On stage III, I drop 1/2 the points they do.
What I've noticed in all this...I'm a much more proficient shooter because I stuck with a "duty" type trigger. I can shoot my friends race guns, but they can't touch me shooting a duty trigger.
In short, you might get incremental performance increases by going to a cheater trigger. You'll be a better shooter in the long run mastering your G19.
Randy, when was the last time you saw me at a match?
What really helped me break through plateaus in the classifier was
1. accuracy - lots of "dot-torture" type drills at 5-7 yds - using Todd Green's 2" circle targets to develop accuracy. My press outs and trigger control got much better from doing this.
and
2. speed - doing a lot of Mozambique drills (Stage I, string 1-3) drill over and over again...but with a NRA B-16 for the body, and a 3x5 card for the head shot. After all those press outs, the target seems huge, and I can really ratchet up the speed. My spits, grip and recoil contol improved alot. Shooting 0 points down last year meant 2.9 second on these strings. Now, 2.3 seconds is no problem, and I shoot everything faster because of it.
After a lot of thought this year, I'm decided to do what you are doing. Sold the G34 last week after shooting the 17 pretty exclusively this year. Did the 34 help me make it to expert? I doubt it. A lot of training helped me make expert. It's all in what you decide you want out of it. I'm going to try and shoot the rest of the year with the 19 IWB. Shot it like that at the Creek last week and wasn't really any slower just a little less accurate (ok maybe a lot less:D)
You just have to decide what you want out of it, I like to shoot it to test myself. When the guys start timing the drop turners with a stop watch to figure out how to game the stage I lose interest. And remember, Sweeney used to beat a lot of guys with a 26 so it can be done. I agree with it becoming more racey in our area but that doesn't mean its a bad thing or that you have to embrace it. Sorry for the long, rambling response but I have been giving it a lot of thought myself lately.
Spence
infidelprodigy
07-26-10, 14:55
Shit piles of dryfire and dot-type drills will pay off. Practicing target transitions dry at home definitely help as well.
I use the same box stock G17 in both USPSA & IDPA. The only thing I changed was putting the same Trijicon NS that are on all my Glocks. Shot Master in SSP first time out in my venture of practical pistol shooting. Hit high "B" in USPSA that next weekend. I noticed an increase in skill development shooting USPSA. The last time I shot the IDPA classifier a couple of months ago, I shaved about 15-20 seconds off my original Master score (which was a low master score).
I smoothed my G17 in with tons of dryfire and livefire. Because of that I have a very intimate knowledge of that trigger. IMO that paid off more than gunsmithing it.
Ga Shooter
07-26-10, 15:01
If you have a personal goal of getting better at the game, then do what it takes to get better at the game.
If you have a different goal than getting better at the game, I would caution you against changing your current gear.
+1 on this. I am extremely competitive and find myself frustrated sometimes with IDPA rules on different areas and my ability to stay within those guidlines but then I remember that I must follow their rules but my true application is to be better prepared for self defense and that is my real goal. With that in mind I do not concentrate on being the fastest time out there but one of the most proficient people with my everyday CCW rig (even though they don't allow IWB).:D
the only "racy" thing I've embraced is going to an OWB holster. I used to only use IWB....but all that draw and dry fire practise was hell on my shirts. Plus, I realized that RCS phantom holsters carry pretty damn well OWB, so I don't feel like its a practical requirement to carry IWB exclusively now.
I do think that IWB adds a good .1 second or so to the draw though, and would probably be faster still with a more gamey holster that doesn't carry as close as a RCS phantom. But I shoot what I carry...that's the whole point. Takes some extra practise, but it's really fun to be fast at a match using honest to god concealment gear.
Another easy way to shave time on your classifier is work on reloads. That's easy to do at home, and pays off quickly.
I could meaningfully participate in it with a carryable gun. Also -- and without any regard to competitive performance --
You said it.
I personally think using IDPA for training is to overpay for the quality of the instruction, but that is one way to shoot the sport.
If you care about your competitive standing, start competing.
I use the same gun I carry, but that is a standard M&P.
If you want to be more competitive than your 19 will allow, but will feel like too much of a gamer using a 34, the answer is as simple, Goldilocks :D Get a G17.
I will remain firmly convinced that the user is 90% of the equation at all times, at least.
Gun games are just that, games. But they are games that require gun handling, accuracy, and speed, along with a liberal dose of being able to think and follow a plan while executing all of the above. So while some may discount their real practicle use I would caution personally against going too far down that slope.
I dont know you (the OP) and from just the one post I dont know much of your background. But I can tell you hitting expert with a G19 isnt a giant leap.
I would suggest revisting your fundamentals, technique, and execution and experiment a bit.
I personally like to remain open minded and try out new and differnt things to look for an edge wherever it may be.
Personally I will compromise a little at games, but some things I wont. You wont see me reaching my gun out past concealment in IDPA for example, but I will shoot from closer to the corner than I otherwise would.
I think with a well rounded regime that includes classes, FoF, games, "alone time on the range", and interactive simulations it is possible to get a well rounded skill set. If all you ever shoot is USPSA dont be suprised to find yourself wanting to plant in a doorway and engage multiple attackers.
A lot of match performance is the ability to run a stage effeciantly and stick to a plan without making mistakes. But the IDPA classifier is pretty cut and dry as a basic skills test.
If your eyes are aging, going to a more visable sight (look at the Ameriglo pro glow for the G19) isnt "racey", its a real world adjustment to your actual weaknesses, and very much a practical decision.
where do you drop points on the qualifier? If you find its one specific area (like the distance stuff, or speed stuff) then that should help you identify where you need to work.
When I first started running "The Hackathorn Standards" I was losing it on time on the first drills (3 head shots in 3 seconds) and I found through examination and experimentation that where I was losing the time was in my transistions and my press out where my FS didnt come right into my line of sight. I was able work that specific area out and now can hit the standard.
He no longer shoots with us, but one of the best shooters I ever saw at our club was a Master and shot IDPA with a Glock 19. He was left handed too. :p
MarshallDodge
07-26-10, 17:56
I get the same looks and comments from the group I shoot with...Why the little gun? Why no compensator? Etc.
Even though I am still not at top of the pile, through practice I have been able to shave a second here and there. You should see the looks on the guys with the "game" guns when you out do them with the gun that you carry everyday.
Changing to a "match grade" gun will only make shooting easier for you but it won't be a challenge and you won't necessarily be improving. If you can push yourself a little harder with the Glock and like others said, improve the fundamentals, I think you will be able to make the leap forward.
Thanks for the feedback guys, and for the interest -- I wasn't sure whether I could compose the original post to make any sense at what I was getting at, but everyone seems to have got the basic idea.
I also figured I'd get a good mix of perspectives here, versus some competition-specific boards where you get stuff like "Either get in the game or get out of the way".
Giving it some more thought overnight, I boiled down the question to: Am I (1) using a gun to support playing a game, or (2) playing a game to support using a gun? Up until recently it has been mostly the latter, until......
.....last Spring, when from looking back in my records I found that I had simulated Expert during separate practice classifiers on four consecutive occasions. Having then in-effect bitten into the fruit-of-knowledge, my reaction was: Well damn, I need to do this at an actual match. Unfortunately, things have been downhill ever since.
Based on the above though -- along with everyone's comments here -- my plan now is to (1) stick with the G19 (which I've always drawn from my real-carry IWB BTW), and (2) try to re-connect to whatever was going on with me last Spring. If I could do it that consistently back then, I should be able to do it again. Some of the tips here will also help focus the effort. I know I will come out a better shooter, regardless of whether I ever make Expert.
Thanks again.
If you're interested in making the most of your carry gear, have someone video tape you when you shoot stages. It will be a real eye opener. That smooth "workspace" reload you think you're doing actually happens down at your waist. That efficient draw you think you're making actually winds up putting your elbow over your head and the pistol in your armpit. etc. Video will show you this.
Almost every pocket digital camera on the market now takes video (as well as many cell phones) and any idiot in your squad can be told "push this button at 'standby' and push it again at 'show clear' and point it in my general direction in between". If you don't have one of these cameras you can get one for under $200 and closet to $100 in most cases. Everyone should have one of these cameras anyway for post-disaster/theft documentation.
If you're interested in making the most of your carry gear, have someone video tape you when you shoot stages. It will be a real eye opener......
Great idea, and I can have it running on a tripod when I practice as well. As you point out, the prices have come down enough now that it's well worth the benefit. I'm definitely going to follow-up on this.
The year I (had the time) to do well at IDPA. I would spend 1-2 range sessions a week practicing with NO ammo. I would have the discipline to go to the range with no ammo and do all my dry fire fundamentals and then run COFs with no ammo and a notepad. As I ran the COF dry with out the blast to mask mistakes I would then take notes of things to do and not do. I really improved.
I carry and compete with a G19 in an IWB holster. In May, I finally made Master in IDPA with it. There is nothing inherent in the G19 or IWB carry that make it bad for IDPA competition. It's not so small as to be hard to shoot, the trigger can be very nice with a (-) connector and good sights are easy to find to replace the POS factory sights.
If you want to improve and keep improving in competition you have to plan for it and work at it. You have to set goals, create a timeline and a budget for your practice. You need to evaluate your progress and work on your weak points. Find tests that identify weak spots and drills that allow you to work on them. Keep a range notebook that has your info on practice drills, scores on tests, practice plans, etc. If you know a good shooter who can give you constructive criticism, try to practice with him.
Budget time for dryfire practice and for live fire practice. If you only practice once a month or less, you are not going to make fast progress. You may only be able to maintain your skills where they are.
Once you understand what it will take for you to achieve your goals though the process of all this planning, budgeting and note taking, then you can decide how important it is for you to achieve IDPA Expert Class.
I was stuck in SS for many years because I just went out and farted around in practice. When I finally started getting serious about training, I started improving. I shot Expert for 2 years and then made Master. I'm 49, not too far from your 52 year old eyes and reflexes. If I can do it, so can you.
Gringop
PS: Knowing what you can do with your carry gun is much more of a confidence builder than knowing what you can do with a G34 in a Kydex OWB holster.
I carry and compete with a G19 in an IWB holster........
I was stuck in SS for many years.......shot Expert for 2 years and then made Master. I'm 49, not too far from your 52 year old eyes and reflexes. If I can do it, so can you........
PS: Knowing what you can do with your carry gun is much more of a confidence builder than knowing what you can do with a G34 in a Kydex OWB holster.
Thanks hugely -- this could not be more relevant. :agree:
I just signed-up for the next classifier near me, scheduled toward the end of next month. Until then I'm going to try as hard as I can to get back to where I was last Spring.
VirginiaTactical
07-28-10, 07:36
Thanks hugely -- this could not be more relevant. :agree:
I just signed-up for the next classifier near me, scheduled toward the end of next month. Until then I'm going to try as hard as I can to get back to where I was last Spring.
Where is this classifier match? My wife and I are thinking about shooting IDPA, so there is just more stuff to shoot in our schedule. We shoot uspsa at the moment.
Thanks,
Where is this classifier match?......
This particular match is at Rivanna Rifle and Pistol Club in Charlottesville ( http://sites.google.com/site/rivannaap/home ).
Several different clubs around Virginia hold IDPA matches on a monthly basis, including classifiers several times throughout the year, and for which the best overall source of information is the Yahoo user group VAIDPA.
VirginiaTactical
07-28-10, 08:34
This particular match is at Rivanna Rifle and Pistol Club in Charlottesville ( http://sites.google.com/site/rivannaap/home ).
Several different clubs around Virginia hold IDPA matches on a monthly basis, including classifiers several times throughout the year, and for which the best overall source of information is the Yahoo user group VAIDPA.
Thank you!
Thank you!
10-4.
Hope to see you join us. I'm one of the Cavalier irregulars, and can also be found skulking around Rivanna from time-to-time.
You are the one who will win the gun fight because you practiced with what you carry! If you have a race gun at home in the safe when the ballon goes up it will not do you any good. With all of the reps on you G19 you will be well prepared. I do not think there is an issue if you choose to use a G17 or G35 but I would keep it as close to the G19 you carry daily ie trigger, sights, slide stop, mag release and magwell.
Three of the guys I work with have tru glo fiber optic/tritium night sights. I have not shot them but was amazed by how bright they were compared to my standard glock night sights.
I understand your frustration. I was a perenial SS in IDPA in 3 divisions for too many years. I finally broke free and made expert with (of all things) a GLOCK. I always considered myself a 1911 shooter and CDP is my division. At 55 and with eyesight that gets worse every year, I finally did it. I moved up by winning SS Class at a sanctioned match. Prior to that match, I was practicing regularly and dry-firing and polishing up my reloads (slide lock and retention). It all helped. So don't despair. Keep at it and you'll break the SS barrier.
JT45
Blackscot, just saw the scores from today at Rivanna and congrats on making it to SSP Ex! Did you do it with your G19?
Blackscot, just saw the scores from today at Rivanna and congrats on making it to SSP Ex! Did you do it with your G19?
Thanks Spence. And yes, see new thread here https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=740199#post740199
I went through this question a few years back and decided I wanted to win at the game. So I gunsmithed one of my pistols, researched gamer reloads and did a lot of dry-fire. My shooting level in IDPA and USPSA did a huge jump up. After a while I started drifting back to real world pistols and found that I was still just as good without the match trigger and such. I still like my tuned pistol, it is just so easy to shoot well. It has more to do with the amount and quality of practice/training you can afford to do. Reloading is a big help with afford-a-bility.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.