View Full Version : LWRC or LMT
I know this has been discussed before, but I need the latest info before I make my decision... I'm going to be purchasing a semi-auto precision rifle platform (in .308) in the very near future, and I'm leaning heavily towards the LWRC REPR. With regards to the REPR, have they worked out the magazine issues yet?
PS: I was also considering a Knight's SR-25, but they're damn expensive... I haven't ruled out an LMT either, but I couldn't find anything longer than 16" on their website.
I have a 16" REPR from the first batch released that had the magazine issues. I sent it back and had the catch modified on LWRC's dime and now it works with pmags and CP mags. Since I've had it back I've put 800 rounds through it without a single malfunction. All REPR's shipping now will have the proper specs. I don't know about the LMT as I have no experience with them. I hope this helps.
I'll say LMT! :cool:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h163/bc5000/001-11.jpg
ArmedSuspect
07-26-10, 20:22
i own the LMT and i've shot the LWRC. both are nice and will serve you well.
if you want a longer barrel you'll be a while before you get one from LMT. on the up side the MWS is of the MRP variety and you can swap barrels rather easily.
i don't see the need for a piston in an AR-type rifle. in a 308 AR rifle there is even less need. i've run 600 rounds (not what i would call a ton of rounds but it's a start) through my MWS with zero cleaning and have had zero issues. everything from match ammo to '70ish surplus this rifle has been great.
i hope to get the time to run 4-500 rounds through it all in one session in the next few weeks.
I've never seen the need for a gas piston on an AR, but piston guns certainly run cleaner and cooler. With that said, pistons aren't much of a factor on carbine length guns, but I DON'T like the idea of having reciprocating mass (gas piston) attached to the barrel of a precision rifle. The LWRC seems to be pretty damn accurate, even with the piston bouncing around... I guess what I'm trying to say is, I wouldn't base any decision on whether or not a particular gun was piston driven or not.
Is the barrel on the LWRC interchangeable with any other .308 AR platforms (like the DPMS, Armalite, KAC, etc), or is it proprietary like the LMT?
variablebinary
07-26-10, 20:49
The REPR is pretty slick.
In like the side charging handle and rail system.
Still, the LMT is cheaper, and we already know it can kill at 800 yards with a 16" barrel
I'm liking the left side charging handle too, and the rail system does look top-notch. As a matter of fact, the only BAD thing I've heard about the REPR was the magazine issues they had when it was first introduced. Again, I'm leaning HEAVILY towards the LWRC REPR... As long as the mag problems aren't an issue anymore.
I haven't done any more than handle the REPR, but man was it nice. It was the 16" model, the handguard was great, the fit and finish was awesome, and it balanced really nice.
I'm liking the left side charging handle too, and the rail system does look top-notch. As a matter of fact, the only BAD thing I've heard about the REPR was the magazine issues they had when it was first introduced. Again, I'm leaning HEAVILY towards the LWRC REPR... As long as the mag problems aren't an issue anymore.
I have both. My LWRC was one of the first 20" models released, and it had the mag catch replaced. I've since put 1200 rounds with only 1 failure when I tried to use the C-Products magazine. Otherwise, it has run 100% with the PMAGs. Using a Nightforce F1, it reliably shoots 0.75" groups with 175 grain Federal SMK off a sandbag. My best group is 0.5" and it still holds 1" groups with 168 grain TAP (slightly worse with 155 grain). My only problems are 1) magazine wobble in the well with PMAGs which does not seem to affect reliability, and 2) gas regulator needs regular lube and cleaning to keep from getting tight.
As for the LMT, it shoot just under 1" groups with 175 grain Federal SMK off a sandbag with the same Nightforce (gotta love those Larue mounts) . I attribute this accuracy difference to: 1) the LMT factory trigger, and 2) the chrome lined barrel. Put a Geissele trigger and stainless barrel in the LMT and it will hang with the REPR, OBR, or SR25 EMC. My biggest problem with this platform is the weight. You'll get your upper body workout carrying this hunk of metal to the range - especially if you grow the barrel and add a real optic to make it compete with the 20" REPR and OBR.
Which is the best value you ask? If you plan to shoot unsuppressed and don't need a side charging handle, I'd say the LMT. This baby has all the potential in the world with the ability to swap barrels in under 5 minutes. For the REPR, you have to spend at least $1600 to change barrel lengths since you have to buy a complete upper half.
Either way, it is an exciting time to be a .308 enthusiast with the leap in technology that we've seen in the past 2 years between HK, POF, Knights, FN, LMT, Larue, and LWRCI.
My REPR likes the FMMG 168's and the Hornady Amax in 155 and 168, I've not tried anything heavier. My handloads of 155 grain Amax, 43.5 grains Tac, and CCI 200 primers give me a little under an inch at 100 yards. I have a Trijicon 3x9 Accupoint in a Larue mount on mine. Fully loaded with a 20 round pmag it weighs a little over 12 pounds.
The piston probably isn't necessary but it sure is nice. As far as diminished accuracy because of a piston, I also have an LWRC 6.8 with 14.7" barrel that will reliably shoot five rounds under an inch using SSA's 115 grain OTM load, my best was .8 inches, good enough for me.
Like the other guys said, I don't think you can go wrong with either.
My REPR likes the FMMG 168's and the Hornady Amax in 155 and 168, I've not tried anything heavier. My handloads of 155 grain Amax, 43.5 grains Tac, and CCI 200 primers give me a little under an inch at 100 yards. I have a Trijicon 3x9 Accupoint in a Larue mount on mine. Fully loaded with a 20 round pmag it weighs a little over 12 pounds.
The piston probably isn't necessary but it sure is nice. As far as diminished accuracy because of a piston, I also have an LWRC 6.8 with 14.7" barrel that will reliably shoot five rounds under an inch using SSA's 115 grain OTM load, my best was .8 inches, good enough for me.
Like the other guys said, I don't think you can go wrong with either.
Boomer, you might want to try some heavier loads in the 175-180 grain weight. Especially if you are stretching past 700 yards. Most people shooting .308 with a 1:10 twist seem to feel that the heavier loads do better past 500 yards. I started with 168 gr SMK, then switched to the 175s. I seemed to get slightly better groups at 300-500 yards, but I've not had the range distance to see what she can do beyond that point.
Having said that, I have two zeros for my REPR. One with 175 gr SMK for long range accuracy, and another with 168 grain TAP for terminal performance. I realize that the 155s have better performance, but the 168s are a better balance of performance and accuracy in my weapon.
lanesmith, thank you for the comparison, top notch info!
Boomer, you might want to try some heavier loads in the 175-180 grain weight. Especially if you are stretching past 700 yards. Most people shooting .308 with a 1:10 twist seem to feel that the heavier loads do better past 500 yards. I started with 168 gr SMK, then switched to the 175s. I seemed to get slightly better groups at 300-500 yards, but I've not had the range distance to see what she can do beyond that point.
Having said that, I have two zeros for my REPR. One with 175 gr SMK for long range accuracy, and another with 168 grain TAP for terminal performance. I realize that the 155s have better performance, but the 168s are a better balance of performance and accuracy in my weapon.
Thanks for the info, I'll give it a try.
I believe I'm going with the LWRC REPR, which was my first choice. Thanks for all the good info.
I believe I'm going with the LWRC REPR, which was my first choice. Thanks for all the good info.Good luck, make sure you post pictures and a range report.
With LMT you won't be overpaying by ridiculous amounts and supporting a company of bottom feeding liars and gun forum astroturfers.
I'm not a huge LMT fan, but this one is a no brainer.
With LMT you won't be overpaying by ridiculous amounts and supporting a company of bottom feeding liars and gun forum astroturfers.
I'm not a huge LMT fan, but this one is a no brainer.
At 3800.00 the repr is not worth it. I have seen and shot it too. nothing special too me.
With LMT you won't be overpaying by ridiculous amounts and supporting a company of bottom feeding liars and gun forum astroturfers.
I'm not a huge LMT fan, but this one is a no brainer.
Its like chumming, I knew this would bring you around. Still full of hate and venom I see. Sad.....
With LMT you won't be overpaying by ridiculous amounts and supporting a company of bottom feeding liars and gun forum astroturfers.
I'm not a huge LMT fan, but this one is a no brainer.
Is there any truth to this or just internet rumors?
Do senior members get a free pass on this stuff?
To me, the only "no brainer" is buying what I want based on MY mission, funds, and research. I own LMTs in 5.56 so I am familiar with the quality of their product. I have only owned one AR in 308, a DPMS LR and sold it without ever shooting it. It was a mistake for MY purposes, too long. I shot a KAC once; OK.
The LMT MWS meets what I want it to do and is within the budget that I am willing to spend. A 16" barreled 308 that is accurate enough to 800 with the future potential of longer quick change out barrels for the $2385 I paid for it (fired 50 times and including 2 p mags).
I could buy the LWRC or KAC but don't feel like spending $3500-5000. The MWS meets MY mission needs and is what I wanted. I got it and a USO 1.8-10X for less than the KAC would cost.
Wheter or not an AR "needs" a piston is personal preference. Stoner didn't design it with much of the stuff we consider normal nowadays. If you want the LWRC and can afford it, then you should get it.
@ Mark M... Do you have personal experience as to why I should avoid LWRC? If so, I would like to hear it so I can make an informed decision. The reason I'm asking is that I've read some of your other posts, and you consistently knock LWRC products, but I can't find any threads in which you give a valid reason for your low opinion. I'm not asking to start an argument here, I honestly want to know WHY you dislike LWRC so much... $3800.00 is alot of scratch to drop on an AR, so if you can tell me why I shouldn't I'd appreciate it.
Is there any truth to this or just internet rumors?
Do senior members get a free pass on this stuff?
He does seem to get a free pass from the mods. So far, I'm not familiar with a single LWRC thread that made it past the first page without markm making similar comments. It gets old, but most of the forum members simply ignore him.
As with any company, some folks had bad experiences with LWRC and LMT. For example, LMT had some tight chambers that affected the first batch of piston MRPs. On the other hand, LWRC had problems with tight gas regulators and mag catches on the first run of REPRs that made the platform unreliable with any mag other than 1st generation C-Products (which was redesigned leaving the REPR without any functional magazines for about 4 weeks until LWRC redesigned the latch to work with PMAGs and Knights mags).
These problems led to claims that both companies were beta testing their weapons on their customers. However, both companies quickly responded to the problems and the vast majority of piston MRP and REPR users are able to shoot without worry.
Basically, most of us feel that both companies produce quality rifles and make reasonable efforts to keep their customers happy and reliably shooting.
Boomer, you might want to try some heavier loads in the 175-180 grain weight. Especially if you are stretching past 700 yards. Most people shooting .308 with a 1:10 twist seem to feel that the heavier loads do better past 500 yards. I started with 168 gr SMK, then switched to the 175s. I seemed to get slightly better groups at 300-500 yards, but I've not had the range distance to see what she can do beyond that point.
Having said that, I have two zeros for my REPR. One with 175 gr SMK for long range accuracy, and another with 168 grain TAP for terminal performance. I realize that the 155s have better performance, but the 168s are a better balance of performance and accuracy in my weapon.
The readily available 175gr factory loads out there are fairly mild -- they fall pretty far short of M118LR's MV, for example. You can do better if you handload.
One other thing to remember is that bolt action shooters can load the longer 175gr and 155gr bullets to a COAL that will not fit into a .308 AR magazine -- this is how they wring max performance from these bullets. For a .308 AR, you're limited to a COAL of 2.820" or less. The 155gr Scenars in particular want more COAL than this.
Finally, some bullets do better than others when going transonic to subsonic. The 168gr SMKs are notorious for losing stability, while other 168gr bullets like the Amax do just fine.
The readily available 175gr factory loads out there are fairly mild -- they fall pretty far short of M118LR's MV, for example. You can do better if you handload.
One other thing to remember is that bolt action shooters can load the longer 175gr and 155gr bullets to a COAL that will not fit into a .308 AR magazine -- this is how they wring max performance from these bullets. For a .308 AR, you're limited to a COAL of 2.820" or less. The 155gr Scenars in particular want more COAL than this.
Finally, some bullets do better than others when going transonic to subsonic. The 168gr SMKs are notorious for losing stability, while other 168gr bullets like the Amax do just fine.
I agree. Handloads in the 175 grain weight will do better than factory.
Due to time constraints, I do not get to do much handloading anymore. Thus, I use 175 grain SMK and 168 grain TAP/AMAX for some of the reasons that you state. Unlike a bolt gun that can get out to 1000 meters, I have no illusions that the REPR or LMT will do much past 700-800 meters due to the limitations that you describe. I've toyed with the idea of using Hornady's Super Performance 178 grain BTHPM. I've read reports of 1 person using them with some success in a SR25 EMC, but I'll let others more bold than I do more beta testing in their ARs ;)
Do senior members get a free pass on this stuff?
Yes.
He has never posted anything remotely constructive in an LWRC related thread, never posts anything to substantiate his claims about LWRC, and at least in my opinion, violates the spirit of what this site is about by pontificating on something he knows nothing about.
But since it's LWRC, it's ok.
iirc there was some bad blood from the way lwrc acted on forums a few years ago. i dont remember exactly but there is a reason i dont like lwrc either. this was years ago and has nothing to do with the repr and more to do with management.
btw ive been reading the ar forums since 2005, so dont judge by my join date.
iirc there was some bad blood from the way lwrc acted on forums a few years ago. i dont remember exactly but there is a reason i dont like lwrc either. this was years ago and has nothing to do with the repr and more to do with management.
btw ive been reading the ar forums since 2005, so dont judge by my join date.
Just to jump in here, for facts LWRCi ships products that are not ready, repeatedly. the repr had mag problems, other rifles have issues,they make it right but customers should not be beta-testing 2k + rifles. Management is terrible I have dealt with them and it has not gotten better since they were Leitning wise rifle company.
I think they make nice rifle, the repr is nice I have shot one.
i think they charge too much for what you get.
Just to jump in here, for facts LWRCi ships products that are not ready, repeatedly. the repr had mag problems, other rifles have issues,they make it right but customers should not be beta-testing 2k + rifles. Management is terrible I have dealt with them and it has not gotten better since they were Leitning wise rifle company.
I think they make nice rifle, the repr is nice I have shot one.
i think they charge too much for what you get.
this sounds like what i was thinking. i didnt like them when they were leitner wise.
RogerinTPA
07-28-10, 13:58
At 3800.00 the repr is not worth it. I have seen and shot it too. nothing special too me.
At that price, they can eat me. Three words, El Em Tee!:p
RogerinTPA
07-28-10, 14:00
@ Mark M... Do you have personal experience as to why I should avoid LWRC? If so, I would like to hear it so I can make an informed decision. The reason I'm asking is that I've read some of your other posts, and you consistently knock LWRC products, but I can't find any threads in which you give a valid reason for your low opinion. I'm not asking to start an argument here, I honestly want to know WHY you dislike LWRC so much... $3800.00 is alot of scratch to drop on an AR, so if you can tell me why I shouldn't I'd appreciate it.
The popcorn is made, and I await his response!:eek:
I await his response too. I'm not looking to start a pissing match with the guy (especially since I'm relatively new to the forum and he's a senior member), I honestly want to know why... It's easy enough to sit back and say "Dodge rules, Ford sucks" and not offer a reason. If the REPR is a poor choice let me know why, that's all.
At that price, they can eat me. Three words, El Em Tee!:p
I like those words. They got my coin.
It's easy enough to sit back and say "Dodge rules, Ford sucks" and not offer a reason.
Reason: 5.7 Hemi > 5.4 Triton :p
Sorry, couldn't resist. I actually own a Dodge and a Ford. ;)
The popcorn is made, and I await his response!:eek:
Go ahead and eat that popcorn, I've seen him called out before on other threads with no meaningful response.
I'm not aware of systemic customer service issues with LWRCI since the change in management a few years ago. Infidel74, what other weapon systems were having problems?
I agree with all who feel that the LWRCI are expensive, and that many other platforms are a better value. Welcome to the world of luxury firearms...
........ i dont remember exactly but there is a reason i dont like lwrc either. ...........
You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?:blink:
Go ahead and eat that popcorn, I've seen him called out before on other threads with no meaningful response.
I'm not aware of systemic customer service issues with LWRCI since the change in management a few years ago. Infidel74, what other weapon systems were having problems?
I agree with all who feel that the LWRCI are expensive, and that many other platforms are a better value. Welcome to the world of luxury firearms...
Some of thier other rifles were having some issues. I have spoken many times to them in the past, the feeling I get when I talk to them is I want to throw the phone. I have not heard of issues recently besides the repr. Besides the coating on their rifles I don;t think they offer much pistons don't make that much of a difference unless its a SBR with a can on it. I spoke with them at the shot show in vegas this year. I don't think much has changed with them.
You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?:blink:
Not really. i have a fairly bad memory, but I remember the things I like and don't like. I don't have to remember the why of the like and dont, just that I do or don't and that it was for a bloody good reason (unless I take notes).
I can't remember specifically what leitner wise did 4-5 years ago, but it caused me to turn my head away from any product they would ever make.
Its the same problem I have with troy, but I remember specifically, I will never buy another troy product (unless it comes with a gun), because I purchased one of their first (now coveted) BUIS, but they machined it wrong and it was canted, they wouldn't take it back and told me my rail was not machined correctly. Now, I won't purchase any more of their products.
Conversely, I purchased a Noveske N4, that I didn't think had the fit/finish of a $1500 rifle, Noveske paid for shipping and returned to me a pristine example of a $1500 rifle. I will buy from Noveske in the future.
As far as Markm, anyone who feels the need the constantly insult a company and its customers with names like "idiots" with no contructive criticism just shows his level of class and intelligence. The downright nastiness of his posts shows his mindset.
I've got several LWRC's and love them, and I am not an "astroturfer", I use them for work on swat and patrol. As for their customer service, I had the REPR mag issues. I called them, they e-mailed me a FedEx return tag within an hour. I had the gun back in less than two weeks and now it works. As with any company, not all customers will be pleased and some people will sling mud no matter what. I'm sure they make mistakes, name me one company that doesn't.
For those of you who feel the need to bash any company for whatever reason may I suggest you use your personal experience as to why you dislike them, and keep it professional and polite, otherwise you come off like a troll and many will dismiss you outright. If you don't like their prices then don't buy them. Call them names, suggest they do things to parts of your body...nice.
I came to this forum because of the great information and like minds on some of the threads. But when a few people get it in their minds to troll on a product whenever some poor soul brings it up for questions or comments, it spoils the whole forum.
Like some of the other posters mentioned, I just wonder why Markm is able to post such horrible crap without any brakes applied by Moderators.
variablebinary
07-29-10, 05:43
LWRC created bad blood on numerous forums when their management said derogatory things about competing products, lied about their clientèle, and generally engaged in poor taste tactics
One LWRC shill account named Hipfiredgun turned out to be the actual owner and creator of the LWRC piston gun. He was a real prick and took numerous shots at LMT, going as far as to say the MRP was going to be obsolete in 2005
Mark is old school, as are many people that post here (Me included), so we remember the events well.
I got over it and got an LWRC piston, which I thought was a really good product. It shot well, was very accurate and an overall top notch product. I don't have a bad word to say about the current management or products.
However I sold it for an LMT piston which features a better rail system, QD barrels, an easier to maintain piston system, while still giving me access to direct gas if I want to go that route.
iirc there was some bad blood from the way lwrc acted on forums a few years ago.
You do realize how ridiculous that sounds, right?:blink:
LWRC created bad blood on numerous forums when their management said derogatory things about competing products, lied about their clientèle, and generally engaged in poor taste tactics
One LWRC shill account named Hipfiredgun turned out to be the actual owner and creator of the LWRC piston gun. He was a real prick and took numerous shots at LMT, going as far as to say the MRP was going to be obsolete in 2005
heh, Dwood, maybe my memory isnt as bad as I think.:eek:
I've heard some bad things about the previous owner of LWRC. It was Paul Lietner-Wise, hence the name Lietner-Wise Rifle Company, and he has nothing to do with the company, now named Land Warefare Research Coproration, since the company was bought out. As I understand it, he was a POS and caused alot of grief among the people in his own company, as well as others. The company switched hands, moved to a different state, and made many improvements to the gun, to include cold hammer forged barrels with a salt bath nitrade, same finish on the piston parts, a one piece nickle boron finish, enhanced bolt, etc. To compare the old company to the new is inaccurate and unfair. And to blame the current owners for sins of Paul Lietner-Wise is short sighted.
I'm "old school" too, been shooting M16's/AR15's since 1987. I've been on gun forums since 2006, like how long any of us have been on internet forums means a damn thing, seriously.
I bought my first upper from them in 2006 and it was awesome. I bought a 6.8 from them in 2007 and it had problems, like many early 6.8's. I had some issues with customer service that did not make me happy. I contacted one of the current VP's and he corrected the problem, getting me a new upper. That was then and this is now. Their customer service rocks now, and they don't go around slamming on anyone else's company or products. In fact, on their on forum, slamming on another company is not allowed. You had better have your personal experiences in the post and be constructive if you do.
I also need to stress here that I am not an employee for LWRC, just a customer, and while I do drink some of their cool aid they are not the only rifles I own or reccomend. I also have BCM, Colt, LRB, FN SCAR, and Springfield Armory. I've had first hand experience with, or previously owned, Sabre Defense, Bushmaster, RRA, Stag Arms, DSA, IMI Galil, HK 91 and 93, and Steyer AUG.
Boomer, thanks for your comments. For someone like me, stuck "in the middle" of the forum banter with no firsthand LWRC experience whatsoever, it's really good to get what seems like a fair and unbiased historical perspective on the company. Much appreciated.
-Pete
I've heard some bad things about the previous owner of LWRC. It was Paul Lietner-Wise, hence the name Lietner-Wise Rifle Company, and he has nothing to do with the company, now named Land Warefare Research Coproration, since the company was bought out. As I understand it, he was a POS and caused alot of grief among the people in his own company, as well as others. The company switched hands, moved to a different state, and made many improvements to the gun, to include cold hammer forged barrels with a salt bath nitrade, same finish on the piston parts, a one piece nickle boron finish, enhanced bolt, etc. To compare the old company to the new is inaccurate and unfair. And to blame the current owners for sins of Paul Lietner-Wise is short
I'm "old school" too, been shooting M16's/AR15's since 1987. I've been on gun forums since 2006, like how long any of us have been on internet forums means a damn thing, seriously.
I bought my first upper from them in 2006 and it was awesome. I bought a 6.8 from them in 2007 and it had problems, like many early 6.8's. I had some issues with customer service that did not make me happy. I contacted one of the current VP's and he corrected the problem, getting me a new upper. That was then and this is now. Their customer service rocks now, and they don't go around slamming on anyone else's company or products. In fact, on their on forum, slamming on another company is not allowed. You had better have your personal experiences in the post and be constructive if you do.
I also need to stress here that I am not an employee for LWRC, just a customer, and while I do drink some of their cool aid they are not the only rifles I own or reccomend. I also have BCM, Colt, LRB, FN SCAR, and Springfield Armory. I've had first hand experience with, or previously owned, Sabre Defense, Bushmaster, RRA, Stag Arms, DSA, IMI Galil, HK 91 and 93, and Steyer AUG.
One of the better explanations of the current vs historical company that I've seen. We should copy and paste it on the first page of every thread with "LWRC" in the title. Unfortunately, many of their harshest critics are aware of the change in management, but try to use historical events to detract from the current product and company - rather dishonest if you think about it.
Like you, I own a couple LWRCI weapons, but these represent a small percentage of my rifle stable. I'd say that the LWRCI product and company is different, but no better or worse, than the other weapons you listed. People just need to decide if the differences (i.e. piston, CHF barrel, single piece bolt carrier) are worth the extra $500. If not, I say move on without trashing the employees or customers.
I would assume that those people that hate on LWRC for their past mistakes (which were many), and refuse to acknowledge positive changes at the company (with the products and the people), hold similar perpetual grudges against Colt, S&W, and Ruger for their past mistakes as well.
Right?
I love my piston guns, no doubt about it. But I would also highly recommend Bravo Company USA's rifles. I picked up a 20" upper, put it on a Colt lower, bought a Fail Zero BCG and BCM gunfighter charging handle and love it. I also use a heavier action spring and H3 buffer and Vltor e-mod and it is very smooth and comfortable to shoot. I think BCM makes excellent kit at very reasonable prices.
Sorry, thread hi-jack.
this might help too
https://www.m4carbine.net/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=378156
I love my piston guns, no doubt about it. But I would also highly recommend Bravo Company USA's rifles. I picked up a 20" upper, put it on a Colt lower, bought a Fail Zero BCG and BCM gunfighter charging handle and love it. I also use a heavier action spring and H3 buffer and Vltor e-mod and it is very smooth and comfortable to shoot. I think BCM makes excellent kit at very reasonable prices.
Sorry, thread hi-jack.
I'm often asked by friends to give a recommendation for a first AR rifle. Many times they have been influenced by a local gun store or Future Weapons to buy an expensive piston or overpriced DI system. My friends are often surprised when I recommend a simple Colt 6920, LMT Defender, DD, or BCM as a starter rifle for far less than a comparably equipped piston weapon. I tell them to use the saved funds to by ammo, mags, buis, sling, and Aimpoint T1.
The way I see it, piston guns are a luxury weapon system that should be considered after the shooter has the following:
1) At least 2 quality DI ARs with optics
2) At least 50 spare GI mags and 20 PMAGs
3) Spare parts including 2 bolt carrier groups
4) 1000 rounds of quality ammo
5) At least (2) high round count classes taught by reputable instructors
Once these conditions are met, they might consider moving into the piston relm. However, I recommend that they go through the steps to get a SBR and supperssor to wring all possible performance out of the piston system.
When it comes to .308 platforms, the REPR is a reasonable first purchase. This is because there is no real parts commonality between systems and the piston action MAY offer significantly better reliability over the 1st generation .308 ARs (AR10, DPMS, etc.). The newest generation of DI ARs such as the MWS, OBR, and SR25 EMC seem to have fixed the reliability problem in the first generation, so the REPR's piston system will be less of an advantage (maybe more of a liability in terms of weight and accuracy). That is why I feel that the REPR is a good choice, but the MWS is a slightly better value if you do not plan to shoot suppressed.
Is the barrel on the LWRC interchangeable with any other .308 AR platforms (like the DPMS, Armalite, KAC, etc), or is it proprietary like the LMT?
Any word on this?
Any word on this?
Proprietary
Proprietary
Thank you, sir.
I would assume that those people that hate on LWRC for their past mistakes (which were many), and refuse to acknowledge positive changes at the company (with the products and the people), hold similar perpetual grudges against Colt, S&W, and Ruger for their past mistakes as well.
Right?
Too right. Any company will have fans and haters.
I went with the LWRC REPR...
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s289/FinestBH/P0608100001.jpg
As I anxiously await the arrival of my LMT 308 I cant help but read through these threads. This one specifically cought my attention since before getting the MWS my other choice was the REPR. I just couldnt justify the extra $1500 fro the REPR and went with the MWS. My question is, and this is not a bash, I have no experience with either companies, How is the extra $1500 on the price tag of the REPR justified? Is it a more reliable system, better manufacturing, better accuracy?? I am just curious as to what $3700 gets you compared to another that seems to do all that for $2200. Again guys, this is not a bash, I was reading this threads for some answers and havent found any, just want to honestly know the difference between the two as to why one is more expensive than the other.
As I anxiously await the arrival of my LMT 308 I cant help but read through these threads. This one specifically cought my attention since before getting the MWS my other choice was the REPR. I just couldnt justify the extra $1500 fro the REPR and went with the MWS. My question is, and this is not a bash, I have no experience with either companies, How is the extra $1500 on the price tag of the REPR justified? Is it a more reliable system, better manufacturing, better accuracy?? I am just curious as to what $3700 gets you compared to another that seems to do all that for $2200. Again guys, this is not a bash, I was reading this threads for some answers and havent found any, just want to honestly know the difference between the two as to why one is more expensive than the other.
Generally speaking, a piston gun is going to be priced higher than a DI gun. Secondly, the LWRC has a side charging handle, which also probably accounts for a part of the premium price. I am not saying these are "worth the price," just making somewhat of a speculation on that extra $1500.
I thought about both, but I was able to order the LMT for almost half the price of the REPR. It was a no brainer. I have a feeling even if the price was the same, I would go with the LMT. I just prefer DI guns.
Generally speaking, a piston gun is going to be priced higher than a DI gun. Secondly, the LWRC has a side charging handle, which also probably accounts for a part of the premium price. I am not saying these are "worth the price," just making somewhat of a speculation on that extra $1500.
I don't have all the answers to this question but I will put down what I know about the REPR:
1. Cold hammer forged barrels
2. Piston system using some kind of super duper alloy
3. Surface conversion of 1 and 2 using a ferritc nitrocarburizing process
4. One piece bolt carrier with nickle boron finish
5. Side cocking handle
6. Ambidextrous bolt lock/release
7. Removable top rail to access piston
8. Light, thin forend with the ability to place lengths of rail where the user wants them, saving a little weight
9. Four postion adjustable gas plug
10. Lower parts kit is also nitrocarburized, allowing a military trigger to be much smoother than normal.
There may be more stuff, I don't know. I also don't how much it costs to manufacture the rifle. I bought one of the first REPR's available and had much better pricing than the price tag now. Almost 4K is a big chunk for a rifle so I understand why people balk at it, and I doubt LMT will disapoint.
As previously stated, I've no experience with LMT, but I've heard many good things and I doubt the Brits would have adopted LMT's .308 without good cause....well, they did throw the L1A1 over for the SA80, but I doubt this was the case here. I think you will be fine with LMT.
I have the LMT. IF I had to do it over again. Out of all of them I would get the LMT.
The gas piston, the forend & rail system, the 20" barrel (not available with LMT yet), the side charging handle, the Magpul furniture, ambi bolt release etc... It just seemed to me that I got a WHOLE LOT more for the extra $$. I would have had to dump alot of coin into the LMT to get where I am with the REPR, and I'd still have a 16" barreled DI gun. I'm not knocking DI, I get the whole "solution looking for a problem" thing. It's just that personally, I like shooting and not cleaning. You can put 50 rounds through a piston gun and not even know you shot it, but 50 rounds through DI and the gun's already hot and filthy.
I guess in the end it was three things that "put me over the edge" so to speak, it was the 20" barrel, gas piston, and the side charging handle that did it for me.
I guess it boils down to what works for you. For me, a DI gun works just fine, specially on a DMR type rifle, I've been trained with the M16 and in LE with an AR. A side charging handle would be a handicap for me, since all those years of training have built up muscle memorie using the rear charging handle. For this reason I chose the MWS for a long range rifle. Both rifles seem to be able to do what they were made to do very well, so it all boils down to personal preference. A range report for both rifles (same BBL length) comparing accuracy would be interesting though.
...I've never seen the need for a gas piston on an AR
...I DON'T like the idea of having reciprocating mass (gas piston) attached to the barrel of a precision rifle.
...The LWRC seems to be pretty damn accurate, even with the piston bouncing around
...I wouldn't base any decision on whether or not a particular gun was piston driven or not.
...The gas piston...
...I'd still have a 16" barreled DI gun.
...I got a WHOLE LOT more
...I like shooting and not cleaning. You can put 50 rounds through a piston gun and not even know you shot it, but 50 rounds through DI and the gun's already hot and filthy.
Looks like quite a "change of heart." :lol:
Not so much a change of heart, more like I'm slowly coming around from my old beliefs... I STILL don't see the NEED for a piston on an AR, but they sure are nice (as I stated earlier, I like shooting and not cleaning)... As far as my opinion on the reciprocating mass, the LWRC IS pretty damn accurate, even with the piston bouncing around (I can admit when I'm wrong)... I also only PARTLY based my decision on the piston, it was the overall package that sold me.
Has anybody pointed out the fact that one of these rifles is actually winning wars on battlefields as we speak and the other one of these rifles has....well, spent the last yr. working through several problems.
One of these guns has a straight up, no bullshit confirmed kill on a Taliban soldier at just shy of 1300M (no typo)....this particular gun has had 100% feedback to say the least from the civilian markets since its release while the other gun has had quite a few end users report back with a number of problems, and basically had negative feedback to leave on either an aspect or the overall rifle itself.
Not so much a change of heart, more like I'm slowly coming around from my old beliefs... I STILL don't see the NEED for a piston on an AR, but they sure are nice (as I stated earlier, I like shooting and not cleaning)... As far as my opinion on the reciprocating mass, the LWRC IS pretty damn accurate, even with the piston bouncing around (I can admit when I'm wrong)... I also only PARTLY based my decision on the piston, it was the overall package that sold me.
Yeah, I was just joking around with you, hence the emoticon. I surely didn't mean to turn your thread into another pissing match (e.g., Trident's comments). I have been interested in the REPR since it was intro'd, and I am glad that you are enjoying it!
I understood and you are right, it's quite a turnaround from my earlier posts. I guess it's a testament to the selling abilities of my gun guy. In the end though I'm happy with my decision, and that's what counts... I have noticed quite a few LWRC "haters", and even more LMT "cheerleaders" on this site. The cheerleaders seem to offer insight, while the haters never seem to have anything constructive to say.
DEA FAST teams are using the REPR in Afghanistan as we speak. They have other agencies using their weapons to include the REPR.
I think it should match the Rock River Arms Car-A4 DEA Carbines quite nicely then.
Currently as we speak, there are 10 total DEA FAST agents operating in A-stan so perhaps there could be a grand total of 2-3 rifles but I kinda doubt it.
I think it should match the Rock River Arms Car-A4 DEA Carbines quite nicely then.
Currently as we speak, there are 10 total DEA FAST agents operating in A-stan so perhaps there could be a grand total of 2-3 rifles but I kinda doubt it.
The RRAs have been slowly disappearing from DEA use over the past year for reasons that you have alluded. Agents can buy a version of the LWRCI M6A2 for personal purchase and there were some Colts floating around Kabul last summer in DEA hands.
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