View Full Version : Still a role for the shotgun?
Hello Everyone,
Was sitting around with some of my colleagues the other day and got onto this topic. We teach a patrol rifle/shotgun class, and the shotgun portion just keeps shrinking. One of my buddies asked "so what exactly does a shotgun do that a rifle can't do better, at longer range, with more ammo, less recoil...".
This got me thinking about the use of shotguns, why we train with them, and what role they play in the tool box. For the purposes of the converstion, lets stipulte that they are good for 'less lethal" and breaching. I'm more interested in them as a fighting tool.
Here is what I see as pros:
1) lethality - within its given range, buckshot is very effective. Slugs as well.
2) intimidation - the local knuckle heads are scared of shotguns. I understand that the folks in the sandbox have had similar experience. Most folks that get an 870 pointed at them comply pretty quickly.
3) Efficacy - while its crap to say "you don't even have to aim with a shotgun - just point it", they do offer a margin of error that pistols don't.
Cons:
1) recoil - tougher for smaller framed people
2) capacity - low capacity and hard to reload quickly
3) limited range - compared to other long guns
4) Over penetation - ever see a slug go through a trailor... they go on for ever...
So given the pros and cons and the finite training dollars and equipment dollars, what role does the venerable 12 gauge play in the tool box? This is how I come down: They are everywhere. Citizens have them in closets all over the country. The are in beat cars everywhere. They offer a temenedous short range punch and a deterrant value. We should train with them, know their limitations, and use them as appropriate. My good friend and colleague says " nothing a shotgun offers that an ar15 doesn't. ARs are more versatile, more accurate, easier to keep running, easier to train with, are suitable for nearly all body types... Shotguns should go the way of the 686 as a primary duty/fighting tool.
So what say you all. Genuinely interested in your opinions.
3) Efficacy - while its crap to say "you don't even have to aim with a shotgun - just point it", they do offer a margin of error that pistols don't.
That's only true at longer ranges approaching 25 yards a shotgun with buckshot still has to be aimed. At what ranges do you teach to switch to slugs or change weapons?
Don't forget cost. Basic shotguns cost much less than basic ARs. The price difference between an AR and a shotty will get you a lot of practice ammo for the shotgun.
Pump shotguns need to be practiced with in a stress situation before being used as a defensive weapon. Too many people handle them just fine at the range but then short-cycle under stress inducing a FTF. That tendency has to be trained away.
I think shotguns have a definite role in the tool box but not at the expense of other tools. Nor should the incorporation of an AR replace the shotgun.
DarwinsLilHelper
07-29-10, 11:14
Yet strangely enough. It's usually the same officers, who proclaim the shotgun as incredibly dangerous to non actors and a waste of departmental funds. Who tell us the dept must spend twice as much money per rifle on Full Auto AR's with the happy switch. Because officer safety somehow is more important than collateral damage when an Nifty looking AR is involved.
NCPatrolAR
07-29-10, 11:24
Yet strangely enough. It's usually the same officers, who proclaim the shotgun as incredibly dangerous to non actors and a waste of departmental funds. Who tell us the dept must spend twice as much money per rifle on Full Auto AR's with the happy switch. Because officer safety somehow is more important than collateral damage when an Nifty looking AR is involved.
You need to head over to the following thread and answer IG's question
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58957
NCPatrolAR
07-29-10, 11:35
THe shotgun is still sitting in patrol cars, IMO, because a great deal of people view it as being able to spew an ominipotent ball of death each time it is fired. The shotgun isn't really well suited to any one task but people tend think it's the best thing going.
As already mentioned; the patrol rifle is typically more user friendly (fit, recoil, loading/unloading, etc) than the shotgun. The patrol rifle also offers a greater level of precision not afforded by the shotgun. If I was rolling into an active shooter situation; I'd much rather have the rifle since there is no risk of a flyer or an increase in pattern size you weren't expecting.
We will always see the shotgun in the hands of non-LE. As time progresses though; I think you will see them in fewer and fewer patrol cars.
Speaking strictly from the military perspective I already have this out there:
http://pro-patria.us/full_spectrum_shotgun
Operational Roles of the Shotgun:
The greatest strength of the shotgun and its greatest weakness is the versatility of its ammo. Everything from bird hunting loads, slugs, flares; to 12 ga. High Explosive rounds are available today. Currently the Army only authorizes a few loads: #9 Shot, 00 Buck, M-1030 Breaching rounds, M-1012 and 1013 Less Lethal rounds. Other rounds such as the Action FRAG-12 (USMC), Joint Non-Lethal Warning Munition (JNLWM), XM-104 Non-Lethal Bursting Hand Grenade and the Extended Range Point Less-Lethal Munitions are in various stages of development and should be expected to lead to new training requirements. This leaves a bewildering array of possible roles, anti-personnel, breaching, less-lethal, ect based on the type of rounds at the commanders disposal. Further many rounds can be used in multiple roles. For example 00 buck can be used to conduct breaches, but presents an increased risk of collateral damage to civilians of fellow soldiers. Also, lack of a STRAC that sufficiently supports training with the shotgun has extremely hampered commanders understanding the shotgun.
Currently, the shotguns roles can be divided into three general roles: 1. Offensive Weapon, 2. Breacher, 3. Less-Lethal Munitions delivery system.
As an offensive weapon the shotgun should be employed as a full stocked weapon employing 00# buckshot rounds, supported by a pistol (M-9 or M-9A1 for the US military). In this role commanders must account for the limited effective range of the shotgun. Employing the current 00# buckshot loads 25-35 meters is the soldier’s realistic effective range. Employed without a stock this range is reduced to approximately 10-15 meters. Future munitions such as the Action FRAG-12 or a type classified slug round combined with an improved sighting systems should be expected to increase this range to 100 meters when accompanied by an improved sighting system.
In the breaching role the shotgun provides the commander with increased momentum when conducting urban operations. The breaching shotgun is extremely effective in quickly defeating locked doors with reduced risk to the soldier compared to manual breaching methods. The M-1030 round is the primary breaching round, however, has only been procured in small numbers. The M-1030 round presents the most effective breaching round and presents the lowest risk for collateral damage. Commanders should also be aware that M-1030 rounds are not effective anti-personal rounds much further than arms reach.
In the role of less-lethal munitions delivery system the 12 gauge shotgun offers exceptional versatility. Utilizing the shotgun instead of systems such as the FN-303 Individual Serviceman Non-Lethal System (ISNLS) reduces the training and sustainment burden on the commander also, since he already has shotguns organic to the unit. Here, more then any area, though the lack of training ammo or qualification standards has defeated the commander. The current M-1012 round provides the commander with a low to medium point pain compliance munitions effective to about 30 meters. The M-1012 round is most effective in a low threat environment against an individual target. The M-1013 is a medium pain compliance round designed for use against multiple targets, however, it is also effective against a point target. Munitions such as the USMC Sting ball grenade or Army XM-104 Non-Lethal Bursting Hand Grenade, with grenade launching cup extend the less lethal range up to 100 meters. Employed from the grenade launching cup attached to the shotgun the commander has an extremely effective method of dispersing rioting mobs. Developmental rounds such as the Flarebang also provide the commander with the ability to deliver more effective warning shots by providing a visual and audio cue. This round should approve exceptionally effective at check points
I'm not an expert on the LE side, but it does have some pro's. Again, like the military, lack of training is a big downside to the shotgun. Several of the LE's that post here that qual consists of firing 10 rounds once a year. Put simply that's crap. the shotgun is manipultion intensive to operate, with the old 870 or 590 being even more so then a qualty semi shotgun. Backed by sufficent training and a sidearm the shotgun is still a viable platform within limited roles. Knowing what those roles and what those limits are only come from quality training programs. Just imange a carbine program that only called for firing 10 rounds a year:help:
In general I view the shotgun as a specialty weapon/tool. You can have a good duty grade shotgun for half the cost of a M-4 or Gucci it up till it's the same cost as a high end M-4. Given that broad frame work you then have to ask where it fits in your frame work. A base shotgun is a cost effective tool for agencies and individuals. You are not going to hold off hoards of angry mobs for days with the amout of shotgun ammo you can carry, but you can get ammo just about anywhere in large amounts.
You also might want to consider most HD/LE shootings still occure within shotgun ranges, in low light, on moving targets and end in typicaly how many rounds fired? Can a shotgun perform all of those functions? Also, for some of the HD masses a practical carbine just not feasible for legal or other reasons. No it is not the answer to all issues, but it does still have a role to play,
your milage may vary.
What I meant by margin of error, is that if a shot pattern spreads an inch a yard (give or take) you have a larger impact area than with a pistol round. You still have to aim (i have seen lots of folks miss clean), but you don't have to be as precise.
We spend a bunch of time "getting to know your shotgun/load". A hans vang gun will be usable at 30 -35 yards. A box stock 870 using basic buckshot, is more like 25. We teach using slugs to engage at longer range or to deliver penetrating fire through car doors...as we have found that much of the "low recoil, tactical buckshot" won't pentrate much in terms of intermediate barriers.
What I meant by margin of error, is that if a shot pattern spreads an inch a yard (give or take) you have a larger impact area than with a pistol round. You still have to aim (i have seen lots of folks miss clean), but you don't have to be as precise.
True for hitting your target but what's behind the target? I was speaking from the perspective of keeping as much shot on target as possible being the ideal.
NCPatrolAR
07-29-10, 11:43
You still have to aim (i have seen lots of folks miss clean), but you don't have to be as precise.
I would say we need to be just as precise with the shotgun as any other firearm due to the spread of the shot.
I believe your pros and cons are accurate. I was issued my first 870 police model with wood furniture and a bead sight in 1986. As a patrol deputy back in the stone age, that was the only long gun we had available to us. Multiple wound channels at a specific range of distance, dispatching a charging vicious dog, or searching for a suspect in an area with heavy brush, being able to transition to different types of ammo---I think the shotgun had the edge. But those are very limited circumstances.
I am a CA POST certified instructor for handgun, shotgun and patrol rifle and these days I have been relegated to full time rangemaster. I mention that only to say I have some perspective regarding limited time, resources and a limited desire to train by some officers. I continue to get training on my own dime from reputable instructors several times per year on shotgun and AR. I personally enjoy shooting the shotgun more. Maybe because I am more familiar with it and maybe for some sentimental reasons.
With all that said, the reality for L.E. instructors, I believe, is shotgun training is an uphill battle. Fewer young officers have any exposure to weapons growing up. For them, the shotgun is not something they are familiar with, and many do not give it a fair chance.
I have an 870P and a Colt 6920. My humble opinion is all officers should be proficient with and have both a patrol rifle and shotgun at their disposal. But sadly in L.E. the number of shotguns being deployed will become very limited in the next 10 years I am afraid.
What the shotgun does well, it does very well. Forced to make a choice...I'll take a patrol rifle.
Moose-Knuckle
07-29-10, 15:15
OP, also go and read up in the ballistic forum about what the good Doctor has to say about the matter. ;)
I can think of a limited number of roles for a shotgun
-Breacher
-Taking winged game (or general hunting if a rifle isn't allowed, like my state)
-Competition
-HD if on a limited budget and/or living in a state where something better is regulated and/or illegal
-LTL use
ETA:
-Guarding captives
Moose-Knuckle
07-29-10, 18:16
Here is another angle. . .
If I was indigent and could not afford much in the way of firearms I would purchase an inexpensive 12 gauge pump built by a reputable manufacture from a pawn broker. Multiple barrels lengths, chokes, and loads for everything under the sun are available.
I also like to think that shotguns like the AA-12 is bringing the scatter gun into the 21st century, much like the side by side coach guns did for the 19th century. Not much can resist 20 rounds of full-auto 12 guage. :cool:
MarshallDodge
07-30-10, 00:02
For professional use I would rather have the carbine but if all I could afford was a $300 gun then an 870 or 500/590 would do the trick. The shotgun is easy to learn and very simple to run/keep running.
Shotguns seems to get more crap put on it than any other gun I have seen. Taking a $300 shotgun and adding $500 worth of accessories does not make one a better shooter. I always recommend buying a shotgun, putting a sling on it, then spend some money on training before lugging the gun down with a bunch of stuff.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of good accessories out there for a shotgun but there is an equal amount of dead weight that can be added as well.
Shotguns seems to get more crap put on it than any other gun I have seen.
My observations don't agree with this. The AR is by far the most accessorized firearm I've ever seen.
Taking a $300 shotgun and adding $500 worth of accessories does not make one a better shooter.
The same can be said of any firearm.
well we still use them. all solo officers have them in thier squad cars. our ESU (swat) will use for perp searches in say a wooded area or backyard search. the shotgun will be around in the NYPD for quite some time.
Does the SG have a role? I think so, but not as much as it once did. There is also a difference between .MIL, LE and Civy use. Since I am a civy, I will speak to only that.
For HD, the SG is a devastating tool for sure, but there are some concerns. The biggest one is over penetration. If you are using 00 BUCK, and have people in other rooms or neighbors close by, I would be very concerned about letting just one BB get out. The SG also struggles with hostage situations and or the need to pin point accuracy. We have also seen where pump shotguns get short stroked in relatively low stress, shoot house environments. Which leads me to the opinion that the only SG worth owning for HD is an auto loader and of those, the brand needs to start with the letter "B."
For me personally, the SG sits squarely behind the AR and Pistol for HD usage.
For those of you that are going to grab a SG for a bad situation, I would STRONGLY suggest taking a SG class (taught by a NONE quality instructor) and THEN log some time in a shoot house with one. I think many of you will most likely change your mind about using a SG for defensive purposes.
C4
If you are L.E. or MIL the best kept secret in shotgun instruction or shotgun instructor certification is Bill Jeans (formerly with Gunsite) who owns Morrigan Consulting. His mantra is "I am not here to teach you to shoot a shotgun, I am here to teach you to fight with a shotgun" With both military and L.E. experience and many years of being an instructor he is the real deal.
I have seen all the posts in this thread.
I would like to know what formal training the group has and from who.:)
My training on shotguns comes from a variety of MIL/LE folks - Oakland PD, USMC, Marin SO (some good and some bad) and good old John Farnam at DTI.
Since I went over to Saiga's, shotgun training is really more about figuring out shot patterns, penetration, POI onslugs and less about the manual of arms.
Training consist of department, and I don't mean your average dept. training. The class was two days long and covered loading drills, shooting on the move, transistioning and house clearing.
Other instruction is from TDI and soon Rob Haught.
So what say you all. Genuinely interested in your opinions.
What your friend said:
nothing a shotgun offers that an ar15 doesn't. ARs are more versatile, more accurate, easier to keep running, easier to train with, are suitable for nearly all body types... Shotguns should go the way of the 686 as a primary duty/fighting tool.
I generally agreee, subject to some definition and further refinement of the points above.
Rifles deliver more ammunition, more precisely, under a broader range of distances, by a broader range of shooter types and proficiency levels.
They cannot deliver the specialty munitions that a SG can. I've had both SGs and rifles in my ride for years, and no longer get the SG out for any other reason.
The "intimidation" factor of the SG is BS and needs to die, as does the old saw of the racking of the shotgun striking fear into the hearts of evil.
I would further assert that the SG is not a long arm for the novice, but for the specialist.
The only occasion we saw fit to bother with using a shotgun in Helmand was when we were on a planned mission to go be door-to-door selling lead cookies. Partway through, higher yanked the original mission and made it a soft knock on an HVI (wtf?), and the squad of grunts I was attached to came to the conclusion that it would be nothing more than a paperweight.
The applications of shotguns have diverged into more sporting oriented uses, and specialized uses (breaching, offensive CQC, less lethal), with the specialized uses for LE/Mil being common for units that get special training anyway, with shotguns becoming more an extension of an existing toolset and skillset than a primary weapon system.
On the civilian end, I feel I should do what I can to learn how to fight effectively with shotguns (as wide a variety as possible), even the stuff Clint Smith does with break actions shows that they're the best tools for the money. That said, the only instance I'm looking at a shotgun over a carbine and/or rifle would be a barricaded defense situation - the comfort level is just so much higher with the other two, I'd rather use the less effective (on paper) tool that I'm more proficient with.
Polymerhead
07-30-10, 20:26
I am not mil/leo, but as an average homeowner I have a lot of respect for (and confidence in) my shotgun. For me, it stems from the fact that our HD plan relies on the security alarm, backed up by a dog, as an early warning system. No kids for me, so HD is purely defensive. That means send the wife to the master bathroom and then on into the master closet (it’s off the bathroom, which is off the bedroom) if the opportunity presents itself. My house couldn’t be a better fatal funnel if I designed it from the ground up, so a solid defensive position with light-equipped 12 Ga is natural for me. Our HD 12 Ga has a youth stock on it, and a simple crossbolt safety. Combined with the simple mantra of load-what-you-shoot (meaning replace rounds as possible when you run a pump), I think we’re set up pretty well.
As an average Joe, I have 10 shotgun rounds downrange for every carbine round. I’ve been shooting sporting clays every summer for 8 years, average 3 or 4 cases of shells a summer and I duck/dove/quail hunt in the fall and winter. A shotgun is like an extension of myself, so it’s natural that I have one for HD.
Just thought you might want a non-technical line of thought from a guy who likes his 12 Ga a whole lot. :cool:
I'm also not LEO, just an ordinary armed citizen. I think mostly a shotgun is for shooting clays and birds, though ...
In a home invasion type situation, if given the choice, I'd choose my DDM4 w/ aimpoint over my 870 tactical in a heartbeat. However, when choosing which one to assign bedside duty, the reality is it makes more sense to leave the $2000 carbine (including optic, etc) in the gun safe and the $400 shotgun (along with a Glock 31) accessible in my bedroom. I also have a fairly narrow "fatal funnel" leading into my bedroom, and even though I prefer the carbine I do feel that 6 rds of 00 buck should be able to do the job in most any realistic scenario.
If you are L.E. or MIL the best kept secret in shotgun instruction or shotgun instructor certification is Bill Jeans (formerly with Gunsite) who owns Morrigan Consulting. His mantra is "I am not here to teach you to shoot a shotgun, I am here to teach you to fight with a shotgun" With both military and L.E. experience and many years of being an instructor he is the real deal.
+1
I've not had the pleasure of taking a class from him, but I've met him, and have several friends who have taken his class. His credentials are impeccable.
Consider me one of the dinosaurs that still has a loaded 870 with a Surefire light in the bedroom for those bumps in the night. They didn't let the regular beat car jockeys carry a rifle in my day, so it was the Wingmaster that was in my hands for countless hot stops, high risk search warrants, canyon searches and robberies in progress, so it just feels right for me. I think I have a realistic idea of what it's capabilities and limitations are, and I have rifles around if I need one. My home would definitely be a bad choice for a home invasion......
I think there are valid arguments that the shotgun is a specialized tool in the LE/Mil setting, but I'm neither LE nor Mil so my opinion isn't worth much on that. I'm a civilian concerned primarily with home defense. I still consider my 870 my primary home defense longarm. I have more trigger time behind an 870 than an AR, and I know the manual of arms better. Inside the confines of my little condo, the shotgun's spread isn't an issue. While it's not the insta-kill death ray that some claim, it certainly delivers crushing terminal ballistics quickly. 00 buck at close range is as good as anything man-portable.
The biggest one is over penetration. If you are using 00 BUCK, and have people in other rooms or neighbors close by, I would be very concerned about letting just one BB getting out.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
00 buckshot will penetrate less than handgun rounds, and most centerfire rifle rounds. Over penetration is a concern with any weapons system IMO.
Which leads me to the opinion that the only SG worth owning for HD is an auto loader and of those, the brand needs to start with the letter "B."
I also disagree with this.
Comparing a $1,000+ Benelli M series to a Remington 870 is a bit unfair.
We are talking about a weapon that has a 250,000 shell service life, requires minimal upkeep, has 50+ years of support, has no 922r issues, can be bought used at any podunk gun shop in America for about $150, and will only malfunction if it not used correctly.
Short-stroking is a valid issue, but its remedied by training with your weapon.
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.
00 buckshot will penetrate less than handgun rounds, and most centerfire rifle rounds. Over penetration is a concern with any weapons system IMO.
I would suggest that you do some more research on the subject as your assumptions are incorrect.
Pistol's have the same issues as SG ammo. No fragmentation. This is why the AR (in .223/5.56 is the superior choice).
Comparing a $1,000+ Benelli M series to a Remington 870 is a bit unfair.
Who made this comparison? What I said is that IF you were going with an auto loading SG, your best bet (read most reliable option) is one that starts with the letter "B."
We are talking about a weapon that has a 250,000 shell service life, requires minimal upkeep, has 50+ years of support, has no 922r issues, can be bought used at any podunk gun shop in America for about $150, and will only malfunction if it not used correctly.
Short-stroking is a valid issue, but its remedied by training with your weapon.
No question that pump guns are less maintenance, but that was neve the point of the discussion. ;)
Negative again on "more training." The short stroking I have witnessed (FIRST HAND) was NOT from noobs that just bought a SG.
C4
I think there are valid arguments that the shotgun is a specialized tool in the LE/Mil setting, but I'm neither LE nor Mil so my opinion isn't worth much on that. I'm a civilian concerned primarily with home defense. I still consider my 870 my primary home defense longarm. I have more trigger time behind an 870 than an AR, and I know the manual of arms better. Inside the confines of my little condo, the shotgun's spread isn't an issue. While it's not the insta-kill death ray that some claim, it certainly delivers crushing terminal ballistics quickly. 00 buck at close range is as good as anything man-portable.
Condo huh. Got neighbors on the other side of the thin walls do ya? Glad I am not your neighbor. :D
C4
Crow Hunter
07-31-10, 08:33
To Grant's point about short stroking. I have been shooting shotguns for nearly 30 years, I started young:smile:. I started with a Stevens .410 pump and I have worked my way up and through all types/brands. If you are using a pump, it is not a question of will you short stroke but when. I have done it just in the "stress" of hunting, I can't imagine it would be less stress if I were shooting at a person instead of a crow/duck/dove etc. Couple odd firing positions with bulking clothing and gloved hands and you are bound to get a short stroke eventually irregardless of training.
I have used Benelli's for many years now, ever since I got tired of missing birds because of short stroking my Mossbergs and Browning pumps. There are other issues to deal with on Benellis but short stroking is not one of them.
As to the original OP. For civilians, I think there is definitely a place, alot of people have experience hunting with SG's but don't/won't take the time to get familiar with defensive rifles. I don't think they will ever be obsolete there.
As to LEO and mil, I have no experience and won't comment other than the fact that based on MY experience with shotguns vs rifles, I would always pick a rifle for anything other than shooting flying birds.
To Grant's point about short stroking. I have been shooting shotguns for nearly 30 years, I started young:smile:. I started with a Stevens .410 pump and I have worked my way up and through all types/brands. If you are using a pump, it is not a question of will you short stroke but when. I have done it just in the "stress" of hunting, I can't imagine it would be less stress if I were shooting at a person instead of a crow/duck/dove etc. Couple odd firing positions with bulking clothing and gloved hands and you are bound to get a short stroke eventually irregardless of training.
This is why I have asked those that intend to use a SG and or think it is the best choice for HD, if they have logged any time in a shoot house. Navigating rooms, pieing corners, engaging multiple threats in a room, being suprised by a threat(s) when you enter a room, etc, etc are all things that easily induce either short stroking and or a malfunction.
Let me also add that some of the WORST malfunctions I have ever seen with a SG were from short stroking and then trying to load another round into the gun. Some of them were so bad that the shooter had to disassemble their weapon to fix the problem.
C4
I will make some admissions after running handgun and shotgun drills through shoot houses with pop up and swing out threat and non-threat targets, through brush filled ravines with steel targets and an instructor behind you yelling to increase the adrenaline, and in sims training with someone moving and firing back while you are moving and engaging in a dark structure, or with them lying in wait for you in a dark hole to come through a choke point.
Under stress I have done things that, before the force on force scenarios, I would have been offended if someone suggested it would happen. Imagine someone actually moving and firing live rounds back in the dark, something I have no experience with. Without repeated stress innoculation, you will not rise to the occasion and likely will not even perform up to the level of your worst day on the range.
Condo huh. Got neighbors on the other side of the thin walls do ya? Glad I am not your neighbor. :D
C4
That's one upside of the recession. The adjoining condos are vacant.
On the other hand, the walls are so thin, even a 5.56mm would still be dangerous after penetrating it. Plus, the floorplan is such that the most likely scenario would send the buckshot either out into the parking lot, or out the back and into a concrete block wall, rather than sideways into the neighboring condos.
I still think that the shotgun is a very effective weapon. I just now prefer a semi rather than a pump.
I'll continue to load the Scattergun Tech 870 into my ride every morning until they tell me I can't anymore, it sits right next to the M4; each has a role. I have yet to see an M4 operator get 16 hits on target as fast as a good SG operator can with only two trigger pulls. Depending on the load and barrel, 7-10 yard head shots are quite doable with an 870, that equates to 8 .33 cal. projectiles impacting simultaneously into the melon at 1200fps; lights out, or more light on the subject, depending on one's perspective.
NCPatrolAR
07-31-10, 16:05
00 buckshot will penetrate less than handgun rounds, and most centerfire rifle rounds. Over penetration is a concern with any weapons system IMO.
I suggest you get your hands on a copy of the FBI Firearms Training Unit's ballistics studies from over the years.
For some people that grew up shooting shotguns they are very familiar to operate. The shotgun adds a great versatility in types of munitions that can be fired. Can be very multi-purpose, especially if outdoor/woods use is a factor. On the LE side there is breaching (ie VT shooting), vehicle interdiction (I'm not sure if that is allowed anywhere anymore) and dispatching the occasional rogue wildlife (in certain areas). My dept has a handful of shotguns but no one in the dept is currently qualified to use one. I'm trying to get a few of use qualified so they can be used if necessary. For most people the carbine is a better choice but the shotgun still has uses.
I suggest you get your hands on a copy of the FBI Firearms Training Unit's ballistics studies from over the years.
Got any links?
The only thing I've seen where it shows buckshot over penetrate more compared to 5.56 rounds after hitting a intermediate barrier was in this thread.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57982
I think shotguns will be with us for quite a while.
For military purposes the shotgun is used mostly for ballistic breaching and riot control. For breaching the key is proper training and proper ammo. For riot control less lethal munitions are a real tool in the tool box. Most crowds will get whipped up by only a few key actors. Dropping them with a less lethal munition sends the message that you mean business and will shoot without escalating the situation by leaving a dead body on the ground. It usually socially, legally and morally acceptable to shoot an asshole with a bean bag round.
For civilians shotguns still make good sense all around. Firstly, they are cheap. Most folks can get acceptable self-defense for a few hundred bucks. Most wives will buy off on a shotgun purchase long before they will approve of a $1300 EBR.
Most folks can load and fire a shotgun with very little training. I taught my very anti-gun Liberal Mother-in-Law how to use her Mossberg in less than an hour at the range. I could spend the better part of a day or more just to teach very basic M4 skills. A person with no training beyond TV, left to his own devices on a range, can pretty much figure out the basics of a shotgun. The first few times they short stroke they will learn not to do that anymore.
Civilians in a Katrina type disaster, my need to use less lethal munitions. We have had many disasters in this country where looters were a problem but there was not total system collapse. Eventually, order is restored and violators may be prosecuted. Your neighbors may even be called to testify against you. Again, less lethal munitions are more socially accepted. Even the sheep want the bad guys to go away, they just can face that whole deadly force thing.
Less lethal munitions also allow you (in a real sense - maybe not a legal sense) shoot first when deadly force is not obviously justified. Rubber buck and bean bags tend to take the fight out of most bad guys. Make your first two rounds less lethal rounds (#1 a short range round, #2 a long range round) then fill the rest of the mag with your favorite buckshot. At least you can show you tried to use a less lethal option and a very close range these rounds can be lethal enough.
Don Robison
08-01-10, 13:15
Less lethal munitions also allow you (in a real sense - maybe not a legal sense) shoot first when deadly force is not obviously justified.
I'd be careful with that one. Real sense doesn't mean a thing legally. If you're not good to shoot with buckshot it's doubtful you would be good to shoot with a bean bag particularly if you don't have specific training certifying you in the use of less than lethal munitions.
I've never thought that less lethal munitions from a shotgun are a good option for an isolated civilian.
When the police apply them they are generally operating in greater numbers so there are officers ready with mutual support and lethal weapons if the need be.
If you have a shotgun full of less lethal shells and try to employ it in what you think is a less lethal situation and the person or persons you are applying it against whip out a real gun or try to rush you in numbers, you will be in bad shape and have to try to salvage the situation by retreating or transitioning to a sidearm against someone who already has a lethal weapon out.
Also, the person or persons being engaged with the less lethal may not realize that it is a less lethal and upon its appearance or upon being shot produce their own lethal weapons.
For it to be at all practical you would have to be operating in a group with people backing you up and ready with lethal weapons.
Don Robison
08-01-10, 13:23
I've never thought that less lethal munitions from a shotgun are a good option for an isolated civilian.
When the police apply them they are generally operating in greater numbers so there are officers ready with mutual support and lethal weapons if the need be.
If you have a shotgun full of less lethal shells and try to employ it in what you think is a less lethal situation and the person or persons you are applying it against whip out a real gun or try to rush you in numbers, you will be in bad shape and have to try to salvage the situation by retreating or transitioning to a sidearm against someone who already has a lethal weapon out.
Also, the person or persons being engaged with the less lethal may not realize that it is a less lethal and upon its appearance or upon being shot produce their own lethal weapons.
For it to be at all practical you would have to be operating in a group with people backing you up and ready with lethal weapons.
Great points; if you're going to bring out a deadly weapon; make sure it is in fact deadly.
I do not know of a single police agency that I have dealt with that allows the employment of less-than-lethal options from the standard, duty crusier shotgun. LTL weapons are unique, specially colored, indiviually issued, and the operator specially trained.
I still think that the shotgun is a very effective weapon. I just now prefer a semi rather than a pump.
Effective at what?
I do not know of a single police agency that I have dealt with that allows the employment of less-than-lethal options from the standard, duty crusier shotgun. LTL weapons are unique, specially colored, indiviually issued, and the operator specially trained.
Dedicated LL guns are definitely best. Transitional deployment can be done, and is indeed still done some places, but not recommended.
Transitional LL was still included in the NRA Shotgun Instructors curriculum, as well as DT's, last I knew.
Does the shotgun still have a "role"?....Sure
Is the shotgun still "viable"?....Sure
Is the shotgun "effective"?.....Sure
Is the shotgun "versatile"?....Sure
I, however, think much of this is overstated.
First off, since it was asked, in jest, but non the less...
I carried an 11-87 on duty, amongst other long guns, at one facility, and that is where I received my first shotgun specific training.
I received a weeks worth of shotgun training at a Govt agency, and carried an 870 on duty at another facility.( it was quickly replaced with an AR type after 9/11). I also shot an 870 some, with Triple Canopy. And an 870 in breaching school.
- Versatility.
As noted, most if not all, less lethal and breaching guns are and should be dedicated platforms. Perhaps for an agency on a strict budget, a sorta do all long gun, may make sense, but I think that's far from optimal.
For an individual, who has a bird gun, and does alot of hunting, you can go from wings, to deer, to clays to HD relatively quickly and easily. I have a team mate on a tight budget, for him converting his 28" barreled 870 to HD may be the best choice. And how many private citizen's have a real need for LL and breaching rounds, or those flame thrower rounds:rolleyes:. But for someone looking for a dedicated HD gun, or LE or .mil, the versatility thing is quite limited.
-Effective,
You bet, but its not the hammer of god. I've been taught to hit with a minimum of 2 rounds, with every weapon I've ever been issued, from handgun, to heavy machine gun, take that for what its worth.
If you think 2 rounds of 00Buck are the equivalent of 16 rounds of 5.56, you are crack rock crazy.
- Viable,
Just like the aforementioned 686 is still viable, it may not be the best choice.
-Role,
For me, as an individual, not much of one at all. At work, breaching and that's it.
Everyone talks about it still having a role, but I, either don't see that role defined, or its poorly explained.
I see no reason, I would willing choose a shotgun over a good AR type, for firing lethal ammo.
Its single biggest "pro" is cost. Someone can buy a Remington 870 Express Tactical add a sling and have a turn key solution to their home defense/shtf/eotwawki/ problems, for about 4-500 bucks. Sorta....
heavy
heavy recoil
low capacity
short range
slug select drills
slow to reload
are all significant drawbacks. in contrast my, M4 type is effective from 0mtrs to 250+mtrs, w/o even changing my point of aim.
In all the time I had to carry a "gauge", I never felt unarmed, but I always felt better armed and more "versatile" when I had an AR.
Bob
John Hearne
08-02-10, 08:44
I think of shotguns as the revolvers of the long gun world. If someone asks me what gun to buy and they are a low dedication individual, most are going to be served with a used 38/357 revolver. They aren't going to train with it and they'll either solve the problem with what's in the gun or the problem will solve them. (I'm not saying this is how you should be, but there are a lot of people like this)
The AR is a high dedication weapon. The initial cost is (much) higher and rightly or wrongly, there is a perception that the manual of arms is more complicated. If a non-dedicated person is going to have a long gun in the house for self-defense then a shotgun makes a lot of sense.
On a professional level, I can only carry a M-16 or Remington 870. I am not impressed by the performance of the .223 on auto body. For this reason, I keep the 14" 870 stoked with Brenekke slugs. For me, 870 is the ideal car stop gun. It will deny cover and if it turns into a manhunt, I have a round that can reach out if needed.
If I were allowed to carry a .308, then the 870 would be unnecessary (as would the M-16).
I think of shotguns as the revolvers of the long gun world. If someone asks me what gun to buy and they are a low dedication individual, most are going to be served with a used 38/357 revolver. They aren't going to train with it and they'll either solve the problem with what's in the gun or the problem will solve them. (I'm not saying this is how you should be, but there are a lot of people like this)
The AR is a high dedication weapon. The initial cost is (much) higher and rightly or wrongly, there is a perception that the manual of arms is more complicated. If a non-dedicated person is going to have a long gun in the house for self-defense then a shotgun makes a lot of sense.
Spot on.
I don't think the shotugn will ever go the way of the do do bird; there will always be a need, if not a very small one, for a scatter type gun that has multiple ammunition offerings, be it buck shot, bird shot, breacher, slug, jungle loads, flechettes for brush etc...
LE use may be less and less over time, but I couldn't fathonm the shotty being obsolete in any sense of the word, in LEO, maybe scaled WAY BACK, but never ditched right out.
The best niche the shotty has; I believe, is as a HD gun for people who know very little of weapons or tactics. Usually the first gun a man will buy (From what I have seen in friends/family) is an 870 or 590; and then they will inevitably move onto a handgun or rifle. The shot gun is the "Gateway" gun in my opinion. I know many people who were not really gun enthusiasts (some even bordering on anti-gunners); who bought an 870 or 590 and after one day at the range playing with their new toy; they get the bug and turn into one man platoons over a few weekends time.
I had one friend who was anti-gun; I talked him into buying an 870, some pepper spray rounds, some tear gas rounds, and some bean bag rounds (I do not concur with there use as SD, but to get him nudged along I was possitve about the little POS'S; as he liked the idea of "less-than-lethal"); after we went to the range maybe ten times the guy dropped his antigun attitude and started to be realistic. He has since sold off the "Less-than-lethal" crap and focused on good shells for SD, HD and what not; he bought a few handguns, and a few rifles as well.
If it were not for the shot gun and it's less thn lethal offerings (Which are just stupid) he would have never bought a gun, let alone a dozen of them and thousands of rounds of ammo.
I think that is a great thing, shotties are cheap; so people are more willing to buy them, when they would not buy a $1,000.00 Ar, or a $800.00 handgun; they will buy a $200-$300.00 shotty, and then 99% of the time purchase subsequent firearms; usually buying higher quality more expensive guns as they buy more.
We all gain from this, economically, defensively, strength in numbers/like minded people, more citizens with guns, etc.
I still use and appreciate the 870 for duty use and home defense. I have mostly carried and trained with carbines over the last couple of years, usually just putting the rifle in the rack and leaving the 870 at home. I have recently started using and training with the shotgun again. Unlike my pistol or rifle skills, I never seem to loose my shotgun skills. If I've been slacking on my pistol training, I can see my qualification scores go down a few points. However, even if it has been months since I last used a shotgun, I can pick it up and run like I never left it. This may be because I've been shooting pump guns for over 15 years. I understand the comments about short stroking a pump, but I can honestly say I've never short stroked any of my shotguns. As far as "effectiveness" of the shotgun goes, I've shot dozens of deer with .270 Win, 30-06, 7mm Rem Mag all of which are much more powerful than .223. Many of those deer still managed to run 50-100 yards even with solid lung/heart shots. On the shotgun side, I've shot several dozen deer with 12ga 00 buck. Not one of those deer took another step.
I realize the limitations of the shotgun (low capacity, short range), just like I know the limitations of the .223 carbine (not very good against intermediate barriers), that is why I now carry both. For car stops and building searches, I prefer the 870. For active shooter or general situations where a long gun is needed, I'll go for the carbine.
Always a role for the shotgun. Close quarters + indoors = perfect
Always a role for the shotgun. Close quarters + indoors = perfect
Opinions vary, its certainly not perfect though.
Bob
Always a role for the shotgun. Close quarters + indoors = perfect
Negative on being perfect. No firearm is "Perfect."
C4
Von Rheydt
08-03-10, 20:24
I used a Browning semi on the robot for EOD. I used to use it to 'open' vehicle and building windows & doors.
The MP close protection guys I worked with had a couple of 870's. To be honest there was no formal training in the tactical use of shotguns and we sort of made it up as we had range days and played training scenarios out.
More up to date: Squaddies are now getting the Benelli M4 issued as a tactical weapon. I don't know what the training involves but I can probably find out.
I also know that many UK Tier 1 in the assaulteer role carry a short 870 as a third weapon. This is mainly for breaching and then as a last ditch weapon.
UK police use shotguns as a weapon and as a breaching tool. It is mainly the case that UK police are not allowed to do explosive entries (designated an SF only job) so the shotgun with Hatton rounds is their only access to an [almost] explosive breaching tool. There is also an anti vehicle round used to take out tyres that is shotgun launched.
Matt Edwards
08-05-10, 18:33
I'm with R. Moran on this one.
For inside/CQB/HD I'd still take the carbine. (to be 100% honest, that will more then likely be a pistol for my home)
I'm not a hater, but I just can't get there from here. It's like the M29 .44 magnum argument.
"Do you mean I can have a larger, heavier gun, with less rounds, more recoil that's harder and slower to reload under stress? Sweet! Can I have two?":)
It's like the M29 .44 magnum argument.
"Do you mean I can have a larger, heavier gun, with less rounds, more recoil that's harder and slower to reload under stress? Sweet! Can I have two?":)
:D That's a good one
For me on the LE side its kind of a lack of options right now. My problem is that I can't get into rifle school right now, and probably not for a while, so I'm going to purchase a 870. I know guys that carry the shotgun and love it, guys that hate them and carry a rifle, and a few that carry both.
Like I said, my thing is lack of options right now, but for building searches, a shotgun is a great and intimidating tool. Also very lethal at the close ranges that could be involved with searching buildings. On the other side, when you need precision or a shot taken from a distance, an AR is the better option. Like people have said, nothing is perfect and the mission drives the gear. For me its lack of options with the rifle, but being able to have an alternative to a pistol.
Always a role for the shotgun. Close quarters + indoors = perfect
I would replace "perfect" with "good choice" and then add "single adversary" to "close quarters" and "indoors".
IE: close quarters+indoors+single adversay=good choice.
The problem is how are you able to determine that's how your engagement will go down? An AR lets you deal with the variables more effectively.
Nugentforoffice
08-06-10, 19:22
Because of the cost of shells and my packing them away...if SHTF...My 590 will always be available. It's just too cheap and easy to shoot and it keeps runnin. It may not be the best at long range but as long as I'm able, it will keep 'em out of my space. And as far as home defense...when one eye is stuck close and the other barely open...if the universal language of the 12 ga. 'PUMP' doesn't scare em off; there is no better alternative for clearing the hallway. IMO And it can always bring home dinner!!
Alaskapopo
08-07-10, 00:02
Hello Everyone,
Was sitting around with some of my colleagues the other day and got onto this topic. We teach a patrol rifle/shotgun class, and the shotgun portion just keeps shrinking. One of my buddies asked "so what exactly does a shotgun do that a rifle can't do better, at longer range, with more ammo, less recoil...".
This got me thinking about the use of shotguns, why we train with them, and what role they play in the tool box. For the purposes of the converstion, lets stipulte that they are good for 'less lethal" and breaching. I'm more interested in them as a fighting tool.
Here is what I see as pros:
1) lethality - within its given range, buckshot is very effective. Slugs as well.
2) intimidation - the local knuckle heads are scared of shotguns. I understand that the folks in the sandbox have had similar experience. Most folks that get an 870 pointed at them comply pretty quickly.
3) Efficacy - while its crap to say "you don't even have to aim with a shotgun - just point it", they do offer a margin of error that pistols don't.
Cons:
1) recoil - tougher for smaller framed people
2) capacity - low capacity and hard to reload quickly
3) limited range - compared to other long guns
4) Over penetation - ever see a slug go through a trailor... they go on for ever...
So given the pros and cons and the finite training dollars and equipment dollars, what role does the venerable 12 gauge play in the tool box? This is how I come down: They are everywhere. Citizens have them in closets all over the country. The are in beat cars everywhere. They offer a temenedous short range punch and a deterrant value. We should train with them, know their limitations, and use them as appropriate. My good friend and colleague says " nothing a shotgun offers that an ar15 doesn't. ARs are more versatile, more accurate, easier to keep running, easier to train with, are suitable for nearly all body types... Shotguns should go the way of the 686 as a primary duty/fighting tool.
So what say you all. Genuinely interested in your opinions.
I know this is my game gun. But before I owned it I pretty much was totally a rifle guy. Now I think given the choice on doing a entry or other CQB work I would think strongly about grabbing my Saiga. 12 rounds of 00 buck and a reload as fast as I can grab a magazine is tempting. Not very compact however.
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/12roundsaiga.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/Saigadesc.jpg
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g299/355sigfan/shotguns/20roundsaiga.jpg
I've heard that Saigas can have an issue when you leave a loaded magazine in the gun for periods of time. It seems that the spring pressure of the magazine pushes the top round against the bottom of the bolt, sometimes distorting it so that it will cause a feeding issue.
Have you noticed this at all?
If this has been addressed before forgive me, as I missed that thread.
Alaskapopo
08-07-10, 00:25
I've heard that Saigas can have an issue when you leave a loaded magazine in the gun for periods of time. It seems that the spring pressure of the magazine pushes the top round against the bottom of the bolt, sometimes distorting it so that it will cause a feeding issue.
Have you noticed this at all?
If this has been addressed before forgive me, as I missed that thread.
I honestly can't answer your question because right now this is just a fun shotgun for me that I use in USPSA three gun so I don't leave the mags loaded. I could do some tests. I do know that the type of ammo you use is important. Ammo like WInchester AA hulls are the best as the hulls are rigid and don't deform as easily during feeding and in the heat. Some ammo with softer cases like Estate ammo has given me issues with feeding. I have never had an issue with slugs and buck.
Pat
NavyDavy55
08-07-10, 08:21
As a reserve Deputy Sheriff I had a short course on shotguns.
Louis Awerbuck is holding a class near me this fall and I plan to attend if I'm in town that week. BTW his DVD on shotguns is very good!
Matt Edwards
08-08-10, 10:18
And as far as home defense...when one eye is stuck close and the other barely open...if the universal language of the 12 ga. 'PUMP' doesn't scare em off; there is no better alternative for clearing the hallway.
(whispering) pssst. you know you said that with your outside voice. Sometimes it's better to keep from spotlighting your self if you think things like that. That's right up there with "what gun I use isn't important because I will shoot them in the head."
Nugentforoffice
08-08-10, 11:00
(whispering) pssst. you know you said that with your outside voice. Sometimes it's better to keep from spotlighting your self if you think things like that. That's right up there with "what gun I use isn't important because I will shoot them in the head."
????????????????????????
I don't train for the average gunfight, I train for Mumbai, however, comma,,,,
I note that in the various stats on police shootings, X number of rounds fired, X distance, etc., all stats that I have seen on shootings where the gauge was used show an average of a single shot fired.
I think this is for a reason.
Any shoulder weapon is easier to hit with at all but the closest range compared to a handgun, and the 12 gauge is the closest thing most of use will ever get to carry that compares to the Hammer of Thor.
I also see this being a regional issue somewhat. I prefer a carbine when I grab a long gun (and I have both in the cop car), but I don't work a place where I might have to put down a bear or moose either.
I have several guns available, including more than one carbine, but if I had to blast a bad guy in a home defense scenario I'd as soon use my 590 as anything since it will work just fine, and will sit in the evidence locker just as well as my Colt AR.
Still a role for the shotgun? I think yes. Maybe not for LE; some local departments now use ARs only, no shotguns.
At my house, where there are many options, the shotgun is the gun next to the bed at night. It has a light on it and carries 4 extra shells in a saddle. I also have a Maxpedition Fatboy with 50 extra shells, all Federal 00 LE.
Consider me one of the dinosaurs that still has a loaded 870 with a Surefire light in the bedroom for those bumps in the night...
I guess I am one too. I too have a decided preference for the 870, especially at night in an urban area.;)
http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx220/SkiDevil01/P1000337.jpg
Ok, got acouple questions-
1. What is th penetration of the standard 5.56 duty round thru dry wall/ gel/ what ever?
2. What is the penetration of 3" #4 buck thru the same barriers?
3. During all my hunting/shooting/training with a shot gun I have learned to feed what I fire. It doesnt matter if I shoot a 5 round string or a 1 round shot. When ever I shoot I reload at some point. Whats hard/bad/wrong about that?
On your last question in terms of feeding what you fire...
If I'm reading this right, there is nothing wrong with that. The challenge comes when you are moving, it dark, someone is shooting back at you... The act of taking a shotgun shell out of a carrier/off a belt and inserting it into a tube of a shotgun is a fine motor skill that degrades with stress. The courses I have tought, everye can do it standing still in daylight, but when we dial up the pressure we end up with as many shells on the ground as we do in the gun... Unless you use a saiga.
Crow Hunter
08-13-10, 12:08
Ok, got acouple questions-
1. What is th penetration of the standard 5.56 duty round thru dry wall/ gel/ what ever?
2. What is the penetration of 3" #4 buck thru the same barriers?
3. During all my hunting/shooting/training with a shot gun I have learned to feed what I fire. It doesnt matter if I shoot a 5 round string or a 1 round shot. When ever I shoot I reload at some point. Whats hard/bad/wrong about that?
It can also become a dangerous/bad habit...
I always used to do the same thing, and then one day, I was mobbed by a whole mess of crows (I'm from the South:D). I only saw the one crow and I took him out and then I "fought as I trained", after shooting that crow, I started my reload sequence while there were still birds in the air, because I had been practiced doing it so much, I did it on automatic. I wound up missing 2 perfect/easy shots because I wasn't ready.
Lucky day for the 2nd and 3rd crow and EXTREMELY lucky for me it was just crows not people who could have been shooting back.:happy:
Now I don't reload until I am sure there are no crows preparing to land on my gun barrel. :blink:
That is one of the many reasons I prefer a carbine for self defense, with one motion, I have 28 more rounds. With a shotgun, I have one.
m24shooter
08-14-10, 09:18
Ok, got acouple questions-
1. What is th penetration of the standard 5.56 duty round thru dry wall/ gel/ what ever?
Kind of hard to answer that. There isn't a "standard" duty round. It will vary by department. DocGKR has some barrier test threads up that show some comparison of rounds.
2. What is the penetration of 3" #4 buck thru the same barriers?
I don't know if there is any testing on that. Not many departments specify 3" anything, and not many use #4 buck. The standard in LE is going to be slugs of one variety or another and 00 buck. Pretty much always in 2 3/4" for both.
3. During all my hunting/shooting/training with a shot gun I have learned to feed what I fire. It doesnt matter if I shoot a 5 round string or a 1 round shot. When ever I shoot I reload at some point. Whats hard/bad/wrong about that?
There's nothing inherently wrong with that. The problem with shotguns that are typically used in .mil/LE roles is that they have to be fed one round at a time and into a relatively small magazine.
jumpthestack
08-15-10, 21:26
Shotguns are also a lot more politically correct than ARs. At least, wood furniture shotguns are less scary looking to non gun people than ARs, which may be useful if you ever have to go in front of a jury after having shot an intruder.
Alaskapopo
08-15-10, 21:46
Ok, got acouple questions-
1. What is th penetration of the standard 5.56 duty round thru dry wall/ gel/ what ever?
2. What is the penetration of 3" #4 buck thru the same barriers?
3. During all my hunting/shooting/training with a shot gun I have learned to feed what I fire. It doesnt matter if I shoot a 5 round string or a 1 round shot. When ever I shoot I reload at some point. Whats hard/bad/wrong about that?
#3
In the stress of a real situation its pretty much impossible to count your shots. We have seen this by interviewing officers after shootings and they are almost always way off in the number of rounds they think the fired. When someone is trying to kill you you are not focused on counting how many shells you have fired. Rather you are focused on killing the threat.
Pat
I am and have allways been a rifle guy. I will carry an SBR in my pack on a long hike/ camping trip. I will also keep it in my cabin with me for defense.
What advantages if any would a Mossberg 590 have over a Sig 556 SBR, Colt 6921, AK SBR etc? Never was into shotguns b.c the recoil is stiff for a weapon that wont pentrate body armor. Body armor is becoming a more common problem with the ease of criminal access.
I have been playing with the idea of grabing a 5 shot 14 inch mossberg 590 A1 and throwing a folding stock on it. I hate the 870 but like the 590.
Do you own a shotgun? What self defense situation would it give you an advantage over a rifle? (Other than home defense where over penetration is a concern.) My big push towards the shotgun is protection from Bears, coyotes etc.
Also considering one of those AK47 pistols but they look more like a toy than anything.
Would anyone carry a 590A1 pump shotgun with 5 shots over an sbr? My sig sbr is 3 pounds too heavy. My Colt 6921 wont fit in my 3 day pack. So now im down to an AK SBR, Colt 6933, mossberg 590 14inch, or an AK/AR pistol.
Your post may get moved to the shotgun forum bud. This thread may help: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59141 It discusses the current viability of the shotgun way better than anything I could say.
In my opinion every male should have at least one 12 gauge. :cool:
Don't take this as sarcasm but I am curious why you hate the 870 as opposed to the 590.
I noticed that the Rem 870 has a much better trigger and smoother action. I hate where the safety lever is located, it jams easier if short stroked and is harder to unjam.
The mossberg has a better safety lever location, has a system that lets the shell fall on the floor instead of jamming. It is also easier and faster to unjam if it is jammed. The mossberg feels like an overall solid shotgun. I sold my rem 870 marine magnum and wont ever buy another 870.
I have always felt uncomfortable with 8 shots when 30 were available.
I have always felt uncomfortable with 8 shots when 30 were available.
If you were put into the situation depicted in your avatar; would you rather have (30) rounds of 5.56; or (8) 2 0z. 12 gauge slugs?
I would want the 12 gauge and the slugs;)
Plus, who says you can only have (8) shells with a shotty? You can buy a Saiga (I'm not a fan) and have a (30) round drum or 10 round mag. Or If you go the class III route, you could buy an AA12 and have a 30 round drum you could fire in under 2 seconds on full auto.
The shotty is viable; mostly for enormous animals and very specialized applications/situations, but viable none the less.
I agree with Jaxman7:
Every man should own at least one 12 gauge.
I noticed that the Rem 870 has a much better trigger and smoother action. I hate where the safety lever is located, it jams easier if short stroked and is harder to unjam.
The mossberg has a better safety lever location, has a system that lets the shell fall on the floor instead of jamming. It is also easier and faster to unjam if it is jammed. The mossberg feels like an overall solid shotgun. I sold my rem 870 marine magnum and wont ever buy another 870.
I totally agree and that is why I went with a 590 A1 over an 870 Police magnum. The one caveat to the 870 is it's steel receiver, versus the Mossy aluminum (Never heard of a problem with the aluminum, but we all know steel is stronger and better).
The tang safety on the Mossy sold me the most; you have a one hand intuitive design, never having to move your trigger finger to pump the shotty, flick the safety off or to fire the weapon. Where as the 870 is not as friendly.
Then again I wouldn't want a 590 A1 with a pistol grip either, so 870 with pistol grip, 590 with folding stock.
Both are great guns.
Crow Hunter
08-18-10, 11:22
In MY OPINION, a shotgun is great for shooting flying things and hunting. It can be used to shoot other things, but it's best use is shooting flying birds and stationary deer.
There isn't a comparison for purely defensive use. An AR-type will beat a shotgun in 95% of all situations that I can imagine.
But if you are going to be carrying it purely as a survival gun way out in the middle of WherethehellamI. The shotgun will be better, just make sure you carry the appropriate ammuntion mix.
By the way, if you are attacked by a bear, whatever gun you have in your pack isn't going to help you much. :smile:
If you were put into the situation depicted in your avatar; would you rather have (30) rounds of 5.56; or (8) 2 0z. 12 gauge slugs?
I would want the 12 gauge and the slugs;)
THen you would die. Neither has sufficient penetration. In the situation in my avatar, I had 2 shots.
THen you would die. Neither has sufficient penetration. In the situation in my avatar, I had 2 shots.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am not an avid Hunter, and do not wish to speak out of my lane...
I thought the old elephant guns were replaced by the newer more advanced load offerings in the 12 gauge? I realize that there are all sorts of big caliber hunting rifles better fit for elephants, but I thought that there were 12 gauge offering available that matched some of those calibers ballistic performance?
Am I completely wrong here? I cannot recall where I heard this or read abnout it, but I specifically remember it mentioned somewhere; not saying that makes it true or not.
Just curious, what caliber were those (2) shots you took that elephant down with?
Look into a Benelli M2.
I switched from a pump to a semi-auto several years ago and never looked back. If you cant budget for the M2, get the Remington 1100. I had one of those too. Great system.
I agree with the man and a shotgun thing too. Not so much from a testosterone thing, but from a medium range weapon issue. You may only need it 10% of the time, but you will dang sure wish you have it when you do.
If you have good shot placement, 8 sluggies will take down just about anything. A good SG with rifle sights is also accurate at 100+ yards.
For what you refer too though, I would carry my CAR-15. Just not in the pack.
Yes, I have 5. An 870 a few doubles, 1 double is an SBS... My 870 is my goto gun for HD because my SBR is in the safe. I have been using that 870 for the last 20 years, so I am very familiar with it. If I had to pick one for bugging out, it would definetely be my 10.5" AR. I have been toying with the idea of getting a Drako AK pistol and doing a Form 1 on it. I like my current AK, but it is huge. The Drako will still be 22" with a folding stock, so I'm not sure if I will do that. I am trying to get at least 1 of everything to be provicent with everything I can. So far I have autos (AR & AK), bolt, leveraction, pump, single/double, and muzzle loader. So yes, I do think a good shotgun it a good idea to have.
Jeremy
benthughes
08-18-10, 12:32
I have a much harder time hitting birds with my AR.
You don't have to be one or the other, either a "rifle guy" or "shotgun guy." My go-to for home defense is my 6.8mm AR, but I still keep a Remington 870 Police at home.
The advantages are that they shoulder and sight pretty easily, and the amount of trauma inflicted by one shell of appropriately-sized buckshot at close range is massive compared to one round from a service-caliber rifle or pistol. The disadvantage is the low capacity and having to load one shell at a time in most shotguns.
You can take my word for it, or listen to DocGKR because I'm just repeating what he says.
...In my opinion every male should have at least one 12 gauge. :cool: ...
Great quote, jaxman7!
I'm a fan of the 870 and got one with three barrels way back in the late '70s (use the 18" of course). Never a problem with it and I like having it as a last resort in the bedroom. Whatever that means... :laugh:
Shotguns are great because;
1) You can use a shotgun and slugs to shoot down low flying aircraft, ie anti-aircraft weapon, or as an anti personnel transport weapon.
2) Use birdshot for home defense, as it produces a lead "wall of death", more on this below.
3) The sound of racking the slide alone, will send all but the most determined attacker scurrying away in utter fear. If the racking slide sound doesn't send them running away with a brown spot in their shorts, then you are at least letting them know that "its game on" and this home owner is ready to "Rock and Roll" and beware, the lead "wall of death".
4) You don't need to aim a shotgun. Just point it in the general direction and let the birdshots lead "wall of death" do its job.
Sorry forgot #5) Taking the bad guy and blowing them completely off their feet and through windows/doors.
That is the bulk of it.
OK, sorry, but some are correct, do not take this post serious. No really this shit can get you killed. It was only meant to poke fun at the most common shotgun myths on the intarweb.
Shotguns are great because;
1) You can use a shotgun and slugs to shoot down low flying aircraft, ie anti-aircraft weapon, or as an anti personnel transport weapon.
2) Use birdshot for home defense, as it produces a lead "wall of death", more on this below.
3) The sound of racking the slide alone, will send all but the most determined attacker scurrying away in utter fear. If the racking slide sound doesn't send them running away with a brown spot in their shorts, then you are at least letting them know that "its game on" and this home owner is ready to "Rock and Roll" and beware, the lead "wall of death".
4) You don't need to aim a shotgun. Just point it in the general direction and let the birdshots lead "wall of death" do its job.
That is the bulk of it.
I can't tell i fyou're joking here or are serious?
but...
1) I would seriously advise against using birdshot for home defense, unless defending ones home from a literal bird.
IMO "00" buck low recoil 9 pellet all the way. (4 buck will still penetrate walls, but lacks the stopping power of "00" buck) See the ballistics section of this sight for further info...
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=56486
2) You do have to aim a shotgun; especially in a home defense scenario where you will likely be within 5-10 feet of your intruder, you're not going to achieve a good spread in a 10 foot distance. Juist like with any projectile; aim it well.
3) I've never ever seen aircraft flying low-enough (outside of an airfield/airport) to take out with a 12 gauge slug??? :rolleyes:
I'm fairly certain Surf was trying to be funny........
I hope
I'm fairly certain Surf was trying to be funny........
I hope
It kind of sounded like it (Thats why I prefaced my comments the way I did; I wasn't quite sure), but I would hate for someone to come on here and read that and base there load configuration off of it.
I wasn't trying to be too reactive, but it was a lot of bad info.
Good joke if inteded as such though...
It kind of sounded like it (Thats why I prefaced my comments the way I did; I wasn't quite sure), but I would hate for someone to come on here and read that and base there load configuration off of it.
I wasn't trying to be too reactive, but it was a lot of bad info.
Good joke if inteded as such though...
I agree--I can see where a noob might take him totally seriously :D
He did bring up just about every shotgun BS/myth in one post
Crow Hunter
08-18-10, 15:46
He left out the blowing them completely off their feet and through windows/doors.:laugh:
He left out the blowing them completely off their feet and through windows/doors.:laugh:
It is so hilarious you still get people that think a hit from a shotgun would knock a man 20 feet backwards. Do they not understand physics, equal and opposite reactions? If it blew the guy 20 feet off his feet, it would have the same effect on the other side of the barrel and knock your ass 20 feet back. I just love listening mall ninjas argue about this type of shit! It's like real life unintedned stand-up comedy!
Ric_Knight
08-18-10, 15:57
In my opinion every male should have at least one 12 gauge. :cool:
My wife takes offense. She thinks every body should have a 12 gauge. :D
If your wife thinks that then you sir definitely married up! My girlfriend just bought a Glock 19 and everytime she sees a 26 she pines like a little boy over a G.I. Joe toy at Wal-Mart. We are both lucky!
ForTehNguyen
08-18-10, 16:09
got an 870 here, shoots great. It has a purpose
Moose-Knuckle
08-18-10, 16:39
In my opinion every AMERICAN male should have at least one 12 gauge. :cool:
Fixed it, and agree 110%! :cool:
OP, a shotgun is another tool in the tool box. With modern loads and accessories the shotgun is still holding it's own in the 21st century. I would sugest you read through some of the good doctor's thoughts on the matter in the ballistic forum.
12 GA shotguns are great. A couple of weekends ago I finally got my 870 to the range. It had been a while since I fired a 12 GA and forgot the recoil. Well, I now remember what the recoil is like. :D
He left out the blowing them completely off their feet and through windows/doors.:laugh:
I thought that was the .45 ACP. :rolleyes:
In all seriousness, I think shotguns, especially this day in age, are way underestimated in their abilities and are becoming more overlooked.
They are highly versatile for game hunting and personal defense. Everything from a large heavy hitting single projectile with good accuracy to take down large game, to punching through hard targets, to a weapon that can put numerous good sized lead balls into a man sized soft target and doing massive damage, to taking out feathered game birds with appropriate types of birdshot.
Great versatile weapon, that is a must for any arsenal IMO. :)
ShortytheFirefighter
08-18-10, 19:03
I own one of each, a 590A1with a 20in barrel and Knoxx stock that pulls HD duty and an 870 Police Magnum with a 18in barrel and Knoxx stock that sits in my rifle bag next to my LMT. I think both have advantages and disadvantages when compared, but either one is a great shotgun in its own way. It really comes down to personal preference, but either one will throw lead just fine.
arizonaranchman
08-19-10, 11:46
I believe your pros and cons are accurate. I was issued my first 870 police model with wood furniture and a bead sight in 1986. As a patrol deputy back in the stone age, that was the only long gun we had available to us. Multiple wound channels at a specific range of distance, dispatching a charging vicious dog, or searching for a suspect in an area with heavy brush, being able to transition to different types of ammo---I think the shotgun had the edge. But those are very limited circumstances.
I am a CA POST certified instructor for handgun, shotgun and patrol rifle and these days I have been relegated to full time rangemaster. I mention that only to say I have some perspective regarding limited time, resources and a limited desire to train by some officers. I continue to get training on my own dime from reputable instructors several times per year on shotgun and AR. I personally enjoy shooting the shotgun more. Maybe because I am more familiar with it and maybe for some sentimental reasons.
With all that said, the reality for L.E. instructors, I believe, is shotgun training is an uphill battle. Fewer young officers have any exposure to weapons growing up. For them, the shotgun is not something they are familiar with, and many do not give it a fair chance.
I have an 870P and a Colt 6920. My humble opinion is all officers should be proficient with and have both a patrol rifle and shotgun at their disposal. But sadly in L.E. the number of shotguns being deployed will become very limited in the next 10 years I am afraid.
What the shotgun does well, it does very well. Forced to make a choice...I'll take a patrol rifle.
My experience has been the same - been a firearms instructor and armorer since 1985. Our agency has gone to AR15's and converted the 870's to Bean Bag guns - both ride in the patrol cars side by side.
Personally I much prefer the AR15 over the 870 - lighter, far greater ammunition capacity, much greater versatility as far as range and precision application of a round on target. As far as training the AR15 is well liked by the troops compared the the tooth-jarring 12ga round.
Niche weapon IMO
And I always wonder how big everyones home is when we discuss home defense
In most homes I have owned, if I stood with my back to one wall of a large room and the bad guy stood with his back against the other, my 590 would probably still make a single ragged hole through him (and the wall) with the wad following the shot
The bad guy would likely be DRT....but
Niche weapon IMO
And I always wonder how big everyones home is when we discuss home defense
In most homes I have owned, if I stood with my back to one wall of a large room and the bad guy stood with his back against the other, my 590 would probably still make a single ragged hole through him (and the wall) with the wad following the shot
The bad guy would likely be DRT....but
This... 00 Buck and #9 bird shot will do the exact same thing in most houses. It won't matter to the bad guy if you have super special ultra tactical ammo, or just Rem field loads. The wound will be the same at in house distances.
Jeremy
still has a role and it's ability to handle a variety of ammo is key- too bad in both my tours in iraq and afghanistan we had only 00 buck- the less lethals and other loads would have been very helpful at times.
I think in the civilian role for home defense without the intimidation factor and legal prejudice attached to the ar it is a great option- at most defensive ranges however it should really be treated as a very large caliber rifle as far as aiming and such.
it does suffer from difficulty in reloading but it would be an extremely rare defensive fight in a home where 7 rounds would be expended and more needed. just the same my 870 does have a sidesaddle with spares.
still has a role and it's ability to handle a variety of ammo is key- too bad in both my tours in iraq and afghanistan we had only 00 buck- the less lethals and other loads would have been very helpful at times.
I think in the civilian role for home defense without the intimidation factor and legal prejudice attached to the ar it is a great option- at most defensive ranges however it should really be treated as a very large caliber rifle as far as aiming and such.
it does suffer from difficulty in reloading but it would be an extremely rare defensive fight in a home where 7 rounds would be expended and more needed. just the same my 870 does have a sidesaddle with spares.
+1 on the side saddle with spares. I like to keep a few different load configurations in the side saddle as well, just in case. A slug or two, some "000" Buck, and a combo .65 round ball/6 pellet 1 buck load as well. I's love's my's options.
Got a bandolier full of my primary "00" Buck as well.
This... 00 Buck and #9 bird shot will do the exact same thing in most houses.
No, no, and NO. #9 is in no way equal to 00.
...in the civilian role for home defense without the intimidation factor and legal prejudice attached to the ar it is a great option
I'm still waiting for someone to cite a court case, in any state, where any form of "legal prejudice" against a particular firearm or ammunition was a deciding factor in a successful prosecution of a homeowner in a home defense scenario.
No, no, and NO. #9 is in no way equal to 00.
What I am saying is at 15' to 20' #9 shot is not going to open up at all. Neither is any Buck shot. 1 1/4 oz of lead is going to destroy anyone at those distances no matter what the make up is. Buck will hold more energy and penetrate deeper, but the end result will be the same. I keep 00 in my 870. I am just saying that you don't need to have "Tactical" written on you ammo.
Jeremy
1 1/4 oz of lead is going to destroy anyone at those distances no matter what the make up is.
Still no. #9 is 1-1/4 oz of very small pellets and is in no way comparable to a similar weight of 00 at any range. #9 is not going to "destroy" anyone.
What I am saying is at 15' to 20' #9 shot is not going to open up at all. Neither is any Buck shot. 1 1/4 oz of lead is going to destroy anyone at those distances no matter what the make up is. Buck will hold more energy and penetrate deeper, but the end result will be the same. I keep 00 in my 870. I am just saying that you don't need to have "Tactical" written on you ammo.
Jeremy
Not necessarily; if the BG has on a thick denim jacket and thick clothing underneath that; the #9 shot is going to get his attention and piss him off somehting fierce, but the 00 will still put him down. WHat if it's winter and he has on 4 thick layers of clothing? #9 won't do shit but ruin his nice winter gear.
1 1/4 ounce of small size material will have completely different ballistics than 1 1/4 ounce of large size material. I could stuff 1 1/4 ounce of lead shavings in a shell, but I doubt that would do much, other than cut someone up pretty good and piss them off even more. Take those shavings and melt them down into a slug and, wow much different effects...
It's not jus the weight of the projectiles, it's much more; ie- the size of the projectile(s), how they are stacked in the shell, the hardness of the projectile, how much/what type of gun powder, etc...
15' -or- 100'; #9 is not going to perform anything like 00 buck. Wound channels would be extremely different, penetration would be extremely different, transfer of kinetic energy would be extremely different. Especially when variables like clothing and barriers come into play.
#9 should never be used in a defensive situation, unless defending ones self from a bird.
Low recoil 9 pellet 00 buck for HD (Ranger LEO, Federal Flight control, and some others as well), end of story.
Another reason I prefer "00" buck over #4 or any other is because I may have to shoot a bad-guy through a wall or a door, and if I need to, I want to be able to.
Crow Hunter
08-20-10, 10:06
I have acutally seen lighter weight shot not even penetrate a birds feathers at 20 to 30 feet. The crows were dead, I assume due to internal injuries from being hit with 1.25 oz of #8 shot, but there was no blood at all and no penetration. Larger shot usually penetrates pretty well, but I have been duck hunting before and had friends who knocked birds out of the sky only to have them jump up and fly off after they came to their senses.
I wouldn't rely on birdshot for anything other than birds. There just isn't enough mass in the individual pellets so that they can reliably penetrate anything.
Now if that is all you have in your gun at the time, it would be better than hitting them with it.:dirol:
I am not sure why there are so many myths and so much errornet surrounding shotguns and shotgun ammo. #9 Birdshot should never be relied upon with any degree of certainty to save your life or the life of a loved one. There is ammunition designed for this purpose. I would respectfully say that repeating folklore or hearsay is irresponsible and potentially dangerous. If there is some real data that says #9birdshot has effective penetration and does sufficient damage to be a reliable home defense round I would like to see it.
This is mostly because of me, so I will say that I do not have any data to support what I am saying. I am only talking about very close distances here. Buck is absolutely a better choice. That is why I have it in my 870. I am just going on what I have seen this shot do to various things over the years of shooting. I have also hit turkeys at close range and have them get back up, but the outer feathers are like armor. I have herd stories of rifle ammo not penetrating turkey feathers. There are alot of factors and variables that "could" happen in a break in. None of which could or will be ideal. No shot is going to bounce off of anyone and leave them fine to do anything. Especially at in house distances. We all have more than 1 shot, so give them more of what ever you are using. And that is where I am going to leave things. For me at least.
Jeremy
Jeremy,
Sorry not to harp on this one, but it is a very dangerous statement. If you don't have the data to support comments like "00 Buck and #9 bird shot will do the exact same thing in most houses", it is best not to say such things as it really can get someone hurt or killed, if they were to rely on such advice.
Outside of a good CNS shot, depth of Penetration is the #1 thing that we need from defensive ammo, and #9 birdshot is far from ideal. It might make a hell of an ugly looking wound but it will not reliably penetrate deep enough to take out the vital organs that cause the massive and rapid, preferably arterial type bleeding that is needed to incapacitate, especially as mentioned, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing.
Sure we want to give the bad guy multiple doses of lead, and if something is worth shooting once, its worth shooting several times, but if you are only able to get in 1 shot, you had best hope that first shot is something other than #9 birdshot. If your first shot doesn't stop, we are hoping that it affects him enough so that he cannot get a well placed shot at you before you can fill him with more lead. As the clock keeps ticking, you are giving him more time to kill you. #9 birdshot, may not have these desired effects of even keeping the bad guy off his game. Again as mentioned, it might just piss him off.
Not saying that birdshot in various sizes can't kill, because it can. However IMO, your odds for survival go down significantly when using it. If it is my life or the lives of my family on the line, I prefer to keep the odds in my favor and not decrease them. It is called birdshot for a reason. Because its for birds.
I have a Mossberg 500 under my side of the bed within reach, 7 rounds of 00. I'm in a very small house, I couldn't shoot more than 10 yds in any direction. If I heard an intruder in the house, I'd send the wife to the bathroom which is around a corner and I'd cover the bedroom door with the 12 ga from a position I have picked out. I'm not worried about recoil, just want the first & second shots of whatever I'm shooting to deliver as much lethality as possible if someone's intent on coming in the one room we occupy at night. I grew up hunting with a pump shotgun and feel far more comfortable with one than the AR I've had for less than a year. All that said, for sure after reading this thread, I'm even more intent on getting some actual defense training (1) because I may need it some night, and (2) because I would thoroughly enjoy it. My strategy would have to change when we have kids in the house. Maybe there will be a day when I'll feel more comfortable grabbing the AR if I hear someone in the house?
Quote (Surf):
It is called birdshot for a reason. Because its for birds.
Amen!
Quote (Surf):
It is called birdshot for a reason. Because its for birds.
Amen!
+1000 :D. Anybody that uses birdshot for a HD shotgun is only fooling themselves.
While I have seen several murders done with shotguns and birdshot at close range, VERY close range, I have seen even more where the shootee is running around pelted and very much viable.
At the point where the pellets separate from the wad birdshot loses it's viability as a defensive loading, and this can happen at rather close range.
For home defense I would be OK with #4 buck, but not as happy as I am with #1, O or OO buck.
We had an OIS back when we still issued #4 buck, bad guy got off without a fatal wound due to being protected by a screen door.
Seriously.
Hit squarly with good coverage across his frontal chest area but none of the pellets got deep enough to be serious due to passing through simple window screen material (bad guys was firing a 30-30 at officers, just for the record).
On that one, bad guy quit when he realized he was short of ammo, bleeding, and that he could hear MANY sirens coming into the area. None of the pellets got past the rib cage, all lodged in the muscles.
I know this one case is "anecdotal", but it sure made an impression on me as to shotgun ammo choices.
Crow Hunter
08-22-10, 10:21
For home defense I would be OK with #4 buck, but not as happy as I am with #1, O or OO buck.
Why don't more people use/advocate 0 buck?
I have always wondered that. You get 12 pellets instead of 9 pellets with a .32" dia pellet instead of .33" for 00 buck.
0 buck has always patterned better for me than 00 but almost no one ever seems to mention it.
0 buck has always patterned better for me than 00 but almost no one ever seems to mention it.
I have never shot or patterned any buckshot other than 00 buck. Now I am curious about this. Does it pattern better because the
0 buck stacks tighter inside the hull?
Quote (Surf):
It is called birdshot for a reason. Because its for birds.
Amen!
Agreed,
People don't use it because it's not available. It's not available because people don't buy it.
The factories will build whatever sells, look at the Taurus Judge and the .410 ammo industry popping up around that gun.
It doesn't matter if it's a good idea, it matters what makes money.
Docs Fakler and Roberts have documented the #1 buck being the most effective in testing, and if a modern copper plated police style loading was available I'd buy it, but it's not.
Even for closer range scenarios like a strictly indoor home defense roll, just try and fine some #1 buck on the shelf somewhere.
m24shooter
08-22-10, 17:42
Docs Fakler and Roberts have documented the #1 buck being the most effective in testing, and if a modern copper plated police style loading was available I'd buy it, but it's not.
Believe it or not, ATK/Federal refuses to believe that there would be a market for #1 in their reduced recoil/FC line. Their position is that they won't make it because nobody buys it. However nobody buys it because they haven't made it.
I would love to have a #1B in the FC wad and a RR load.
Crow Hunter
08-24-10, 09:07
I have never shot or patterned any buckshot other than 00 buck. Now I am curious about this. Does it pattern better because the
0 buck stacks tighter inside the hull?
I have no idea why, but when I use the 0 buck, I don't have as many holes in my patterns and it seems more uniform.
The only reason I even have it was years ago I bulk purchased some Remington Express 00 buck out of a catalog. I got shipped 0 instead. I noticed it when I shot a pattern and counted 12 holes instead of 9. Thought I was going crazy to start with until I looked at the shells.
I don't use a shotgun for much anymore other than shooting birds so I don't keep up on the availability anymore. It was just something that I thought was strange from an efficiency standpoint. To me 12 .32 caliber projectiles was better than 9 .33 caliber projectiles.
Good point about the #1 buck. I have only seen it occasionally, and usually on sale because no one is buying it.
It's still in use for breaching doors and other things. Check out the link if you get a chance.
http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/08/last-moments-of-coronel-alive.html
Well I might be wrong but after reading everything . I came up with my m4 is staying in the bed room for defense artillary because one shot in the middle of the body is all it takes . I dont know if a 223 will do the same .
If im clearing my house I like my 1911/45 with laser and surefire .
because one shot in the middle of the body is all it takes
This is a dangerous assumption.
Awhile back we had an OIS where the officer hit the bad guy "center mass" with all 8 pellets of Remington low recoil OO buck, and the bad guy also took two 9mm 124gr +P Gold Dots in the legs, he still had to be physically fought into cuffs, and continued to be an asshole through his trip to the ER and into sugery.
Scott Reitz recently wrote about a SoCal OIS where the bad guy took all 9 pellets of OO buck in the gut from close range, and then stood there M-Fing the officer while demanding to know why he had been shot.
Jim Cirillo told me about a bad guy taking 2 and a 1/2 loads of 9 pellet OO buck into the upper torso at close range, and a .38 in the butt, then went head first through a plate glass door, without being "stopped". The bad guy quit, asked to not be shot anymore, and while he expired a few minutes later he only quit the gunfight because he quit, not because he was shutdown.
I could go on all day, but I think the point is made.
Plan to shoot until you stop the threat. We never train our officers to always shoot one round, or two, or two to the body and one to the head in our drills. We don't want to instill a training scar that "X" number of rounds will stop a threat.
Don't stop till they drop.
Combat_Diver
09-03-10, 11:21
I'll add my two cents here. During the majority of my time in the military we had a few Winchester 1200s still in the arms room for security work. We weren't taught ballistic breaching then. This was from 84-98. After my company became a CIF and we went to SFARTEAC did we get shotgun training but that was basically breaching (plus mechincal and explosive). Everything else was M16/M4 from room clearing to engaging targets at 600m with irons.
My first shotgun was a old Browning A5 with a 20" cylinder bore. Killed lots of fowl, deer and thousands of clay pigeons with it. My 870 Police Mag that my father gave me still gives me fits to this day and its being converted over to a deciated turkey gun. Boils down to what you are trained on. Things go bump in the night I prefer my M4 as I got decades of instictive training on it. That said next to the assualt rifle, I still have a 14" 870 with 00 buck backup in my room in Astan.
CD
Believe it or not, ATK/Federal refuses to believe that there would be a market for #1 in their reduced recoil/FC line. Their position is that they won't make it because nobody buys it. However nobody buys it because they haven't made it.
Wow, that sounds really dumb.
Can you point me to a link for ATK/Federal's official position on that?
m24shooter
09-04-10, 12:33
Wow, that sounds really dumb.
Can you point me to a link for ATK/Federal's official position on that?
Afraid not. Those are the statements made to Old_Painless and FMD when they asked ATK about it.
Afraid not. Those are the statements made to Old_Painless and FMD when they asked ATK about it.
Interesting.
Any idea who it was they asked?
We have 14” 870's mounted over head in both of our police cars. M16/AR15's are available to officers to carry in the cruisers as well. When we replace our cruisers we will have AR's mounted over head and shotguns will be available to check out. If I had to choose one weapon it would be an SBR AR-15.
With that said if you could take only one center mass shot at ten yards and knew you would hit the bad guy what round would you choose?
I would choose to hit the bad guy with a 12 gauge slug or 00 Buck shot over one 5.56mm round? With the bad guys wearing body armor more often the 5.56 becomes a better choice.
The 5.56 offers thirty rounds VS 5-8 rounds in the same size package. The 12 gauge offers devastating fire power per round. I will keep my 12 gauge around, it is like an old friend. I will most often grab my AR when I need a long gun.
m24shooter
09-05-10, 10:39
Interesting.
Any idea who it was they asked?
No idea of the names. O_P asked their rep at SHOT.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53616&page=2
FMD knows one of their engineers or something, and he's talked to him numerous times about it and apparently gotten the same answer from him. You would have to ask him about those details.
I'm inclined to believe it as there is no product offering in the LE line with #4B or #1B. DocGKR has said that the #1B would probably be a very good load with optimal penetration and a lot more wound tracks due to #1B being about the ideal shotgun load and that #4B if loaded correctly could be as good or at least very near it.
m24shooter
09-05-10, 10:41
Double post.
Lots of good information in here; I'd like to toss in my 2cents and you are being overcharged for what it's worth.
I have a shotgun. I also have an M4 - recent trade, had not shot an AR platform since the handguards were triangular and the forward assist was a "new idea."
While a shotgun is useful for home defense I actually find a handgun superior. As others have alluded to, the shotgun does not spray out a pattern that goes wall-to-wall. A rule of thumb is about 1" spread per yard of travel from the muzzle. Trust me, in a normal room, you will have to be pretty much as close to center with a shotgun as a pistol. Room of, say, 14 x 18? Longest dimension is 6 yards. That's about 6" of spread. Yes, if you would miss with a pistol you might wound with a shotgun. As miserable as shotgun wounds are, a peripheral one won't necessarily put the perp down.
A shotgun is unwieldy. Swing one around. I also agree with the comment about short-stroking on a shotgun. In some stress situations one might be better off with an autoloader.
A shotgun is intimidating. No question.
But, a shotgun is loud and, depending on the load, puts out a flash. Not the best thing in a confined area.
I consider my shotgun useful in a SHTF situation for defending a position against attack from 50 yards to up close. The M4 likely is better. Since getting my M4, I consider the shotgun a boat gun, ideal with slugs as well as buckshot. Separate discussion.
Your location also enters into it. Some jurisdictions are more problematic than others regarding handgun use. In those, the shotgun is the way to go. If a handgun is not a problem, some decent hollow point 9mm in a longer barreled pistol is the way to go - the longer barrel allows the powder to burn and not be as big a flash. Ditto a good quality .38+P in a decent barrel. Not only is something like a 4 " barrel easier to handle, there's less for the opponent to grab.
Look also at theboxotruth.com for some tests on shotgun, carbine and handgun ammunition vs. wallboard.
AZ-Renegade
09-06-10, 10:00
Our service issues out M4s and Remington 870 with 14 inch barrels.
While I still train with one, I personally do not use the shotgun. When I do go in the field I religiously sign out an M4. Since a lot of our work is done outdoors in remote areas, I prefer a long arm that can reach out and touch someone if needed and has superior ammo capacity.
There have been rumors that the service may actually phase out the 870. While I won't go so far as to say that the shotgun is obsolete, I believe for our use the M4 is superior. In my mind the only advantage over the M4 that the shotgun possesses for us is "shock and awe."
As stated above, when firing a shotgun in low light, especially with slugs, there is a spectacular white muzzle flash. This flash effectively kills your night vision, making it difficult for a quick follow up sight picture on your threat.
On top of that, all of the major engagements south of the border between cartel/mexican authorities or cartel/cartel, body armor has been employed by cartel members.
Since much of our work is done along the border, and since the worst case scenario threat that we face is from drug trafficking organizations, I prefer to see agents deploy to the field with a weapon that can defeat soft body armor at extended ranges.
Mitchell, Esq.
09-06-10, 15:37
I'm still waiting for someone to cite a court case, in any state, where any form of "legal prejudice" against a particular firearm or ammunition was a deciding factor in a successful prosecution of a homeowner in a home defense scenario.
I came across an article on this issue:
http://www.astcweb.org/public/publication/article.cfm/1/21/5/Weapons-Issues-and-the-Fears-of-the-Legally-Armed-Citizen
I am not sold on the conclusions; however, it does discuss the issues you were looking for.
dwhitehorne
09-06-10, 16:55
I must admit to being a big shotgun fan. I have carried one on duty for years and think it is a valueable weapon when working around vehicles. I have gone through many long gun variations over the past 25 years. I carried 870's on MSG duty where the metal folding stock would bloody the inside of your mouth. In the 90's with another agency, our long gun options were MP5's with ball ammo and woodstock 870's with the front bead. At my current agency we have ditched the M16A1's and gone to LWRC's and we still have a large selection of 14 inch barrel Scattergun Tech 870's. Being a shotgun fanboy and growing up with a Winchester 120 and a 1100 I have never thought twice about signing out a 12 guage. Well 2 years ago I went through a 3 day active shooter class. Everyone was going for the simunition carbines in class so manly me took a trusty 14inch 870. After 3 days of sweating to death humping around my shortbarrel 870, I gained new insight on the shotgun and room clearing. (I don't like single point slings now either) I can't count how many times I short stroked the action by pinching the meaty part of my palm between the forearm and the receiver during that class. I carry my LWRC mostly now. Just my 2 cents.
I came across an article on this issue:
http://www.astcweb.org/public/publication/article.cfm/1/21/5/Weapons-Issues-and-the-Fears-of-the-Legally-Armed-Citizen
I am not sold on the conclusions; however, it does discuss the issues you were looking for.
Thanks for that. Still more theory.
Mitchell, Esq.
09-07-10, 10:35
I am of the opinion the weapon's appearance is a tertiary concern at best in regards to solving the problem at hand.
The study presented an ambiguous situation, one which would likely be very dependent on the jury's opinions to sway either way, and they used the weapon as a mitigating or aggravating factor.
You can avoid this by better contact management, better understanding of lethal force laws, and better law enforcement contact management.
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