View Full Version : Technology Question - Laptop for Information Security
Gutshot John
07-29-10, 10:46
I'm heading back to school in a couple weeks in an Information Security Policy/Management program and need to buy a laptop. If there are any pros out there that could make a recommendation I'd be grateful.
My options are primarily either a MacBook Pro or a Lenovo Thinkpad from the campus store. I've been a Mac guy for a long time but am completely comfortable in either environment.
I'm looking for a computer that's going to be technologically relevant/fast for the next two years. Many programs are windows only so I will have to at least dual-boot Windows/OSX and probably should be able to triple boot Windows/OSX/Linux.
4 gigs of RAM is the minimum which would require upgrading the Lenovo but is standard on the Apple.
The best deal is the Apple ($200 less than the base model Lenovo) but the Lenovo comes with accident protection which I could probably add as a rider to my home owners insurance.
The base MacBook comes with an Intel Dual-Core 2.4Ghz, but I could upgrade to 2.66 or even to the i5 or i7.
Is there a really qualitative difference between processors even at the same processing speed that justifies $500 difference in price?
Any input is appreciated.
If you're wanting to dual-boot Windows and OSX, then a Mac is your only realistic option (you could get a modded mainboard, but that's a bit extreme). Macs are going to be the most reliable option you'll have, however lacking they can be at times in terms of speed and available resources (compared to a high-end lap workstation).
If you can forgo the OSX portion and want simply a high-performance laptop...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220737
That laptop will stay relevant for the next 3-4 years and has more power than most desktop PC's. If that's out of your price range, it has a sibling:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834220688
Both of these laptops have quad-core processors compared to the dual-core of the macs. In some older applications, the mac will run faster due to the higher overall speed, but in the latest applications and in future apps, the quad-cores will blow it away, especially in graphics and logic-heavy programs. The video cards in them are the best money can buy for a laptop and they have more than enough memory and disk storage.
Disclaimer: I've built PC's for the last 10 years.
Littlelebowski
07-29-10, 11:02
Macbook Pro. Without a doubt. I do UNIX and Linux for the DOD. I've been in the industry for years and running Macs and Linux at home for years.
Macbook Pro. Without a doubt. I do UNIX and Linux for the DOD. I've been in the industry for years and running Macs and Linux at home for years.
I don't do the DoD part and run FreeBSD (and Solaris, though that is being phased out) instead of Linux for non OS X things but I agree with him 100%
I'd get the MacBook with the core i5 or i7. Fastest one you want to afford would not hurt but the base i5 would probably be great for the next several years. Your choice of screen size. MacBook Pro supports up to 8GB of memory. I'd go for it.
You can dual boot but I would also consider one of the virtualization products like the VMWare Fusion for most of your Windows and/or Linux needs. Having the extra RAM will help in doing lots of Virtualization.
Get an extra external HD to run with Time Machine for a backup disk.
Littlelebowski
07-29-10, 11:23
Forget the dual boot, use Virtualbox to run a Windows Virtual Machine for free (sans the cost of Winders).
I can and will help you with this. Be sure to ask for an educator's discount from Apple. I wouldn't worry too much about processor speed; memory amount is more important.
Gutshot John
07-29-10, 11:25
Does the relevant software typically require that much more power?
In other words would you pay the $600 cost difference between a Core 2 duo and and i5 in a the MacBook Pro?
Those laptops do look kick ass though I'm curious about an educational discount.
Forget the dual boot, use Virtualbox to run a Windows Virtual Machine for free (sans the cost of Winders).
How does this compare in terms of performance including graphics performance to something like VMWare Fusion or Parallels? Just wondering. The pay-for virtualization products are not expensive and if they have performance benefits then the money is worth it.
I can and will help you with this. Be sure to ask for an educator's discount from Apple. I wouldn't worry too much about processor speed; memory amount is more important.
Agreed. Processor speed is not that important and memory is. But the extra processor speed won't hurt if you have the dough (or buy the i7 which is only the highest speed anyway). Memory before CPU clock speed is wise. Go for the 8GB if you can. Third party memory may be cheaper but I would go for the Apple since it appears that they have gotten much more competitive on memory prices recently and then there are no warranty issues.
I'd buy the AppleCare as well.
Gutshot John
07-29-10, 11:29
Thanks to all for their input and advice.
I'm a bit out of my comfort zone on this one and I don't think the campus computer store is really "feeling me."
Does the relevant software typically require that much more power?
In other words would you pay the $600 cost difference between a Core 2 duo and and i5 in a the MacBook Pro?
Those laptops do look kick ass though I'm curious about an educational discount.
I have not used a Core iX at all but in reading various generic reviews the Core iX seems to be a much more efficient and better processor than the Core 2 duo. I'll defer to people that have actual experience.
Starting with the best you can afford however, may translate into longer relevant service life down the road.
You can look at edu pricing on the Apple Store. At the bottom of the page is an "Education Store" link.
Thanks to all for their input and advice.
I'm a bit out of my comfort zone on this one and I don't think the campus computer store is really "feeling me."
Campus computer stores usually are ignorant. Not always, but usually.
In most cases I'd buy a custom configuration directly from the Apple education store online. If you have a walk-in Apple store in your area they may be able to address questions etc. Their people are usually OK in terms of knowledge. You can still order the actual computer online.
Littlelebowski
07-29-10, 11:37
If it came to cost (as in cash out of your pocket), I would get the cheaper processor and then invest in memory upgrades from Kingston or Crucial unless Apple's memory prices are better which I highly doubt.
UNIX/BSD/OS X is engineered to run better with more memory; to take advantage of it in a logical way. with today's processors, unless you're running applications that constantly max out available processing power (I sincerely doubt that you are!), I'd get the memory as I suggested AND the AppleCare warranty.
Imagine a computer warranty where they will do most of the work in the store while you wait. Imagine not calling India and getting an RMA.
One more thing - get a USB external drive 1.5 to 2x the amount of your existing hard drive. Plug'er in and let Time Machine configure it for auto-magical backups.
I just got a new Asus laptop yesterday and so far I'm very impressed with the build and it's operating speed. http://usa.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=IZfJRyRqVpStMi76
My reasons for getting this were based on several online review sites and reputable magazines giving very favorable reviews and so far I understand why. My needs are different than yours and I travel frequently, size & weight being a big factor, but I would recommend checking out Asus for your needs like listed in the links above.
If it came to cost (as in cash out of your pocket), I would get the cheaper processor and then invest in memory upgrades from Kingston or Crucial unless Apple's memory prices are better which I highly doubt.
To upgrade to 8GB using Crucial bought at NewEgg, a quick look suggests it is $345 -- $360 depending on speed of memory (I am not sure what the latest MacBooks take). Apple wants $400. That is close enough to me to buy it from Apple, pre-installed, and part of the warranty.
In the past, Apple would have charged something like $700-$800 for that memory and then the 3rd party memory would have been a much better deal (and indeed, my MacBook and my several Mac Minis and my Mac Pro all got 3rd party memory upgrades for that reason). Apple recently got wise and prices their memory a bit closer to the 3rd party memory now.
Littlelebowski
07-29-10, 11:45
Agreed, 100%. I haven't bought from Apple in a while. 2 years ago, I bought the last top of the line model (before the unibody) with 4 gigs of RAM from the dotcom I had bee employed at (went under) for $900.
This machine multitasks and runs virtualized Windows (64bit Windows 7 Enterprise) beautifully and it has an older processor than the slower one GutshotJohn is looking at so.......
To upgrade to 8GB using Crucial bought at NewEgg, a quick look suggests it is $345 -- $360 depending on speed of memory (I am not sure what the latest MacBooks take). Apple wants $400. That is close enough to me to buy it from Apple, pre-installed, and part of the warranty.
In the past, Apple would have charged something like $700-$800 for that memory and then the 3rd party memory would have been a much better deal (and indeed, my MacBook and my several Mac Minis and my Mac Pro all got 3rd party memory upgrades for that reason). Apple recently got wise and prices their memory a bit closer to the 3rd party memory now.
If it were my choice I would go with the macbook pro for sure. I bought one last year and will never buy another windows notebook again.
With that said there is one thing that I don't like about the macbook pro. The fact that the battery is not user replaceable. You have to take it to a certified mac dealer to replace the battery; or you risk voiding your warranty.
Gutshot John
07-29-10, 11:52
You have to take it to a certified mac dealer to replace the battery; or you risk voiding your warranty.
I have cracked open MacBooks (out of warranty) to maintain/upgrade them, that said I don't mind that at all. I've always gotten great service from the Mac store.
They swapped out a logic board 2 years out of warranty for free. Obviously they recognized that it was a manufacturing defect and didn't hesitate to swap it out even though I got 3 good years out of it.
Littlelebowski
07-29-10, 11:56
I have a few amazing stories about AppleCare and the in store support. All true and all very good. So good, that they're almsot unbelievable.
In 2005, I switched the execs and sales idjits for the company I was running IT for over to Powerbook G4s. The ROI was amazing. Made my life a lot easier.
I would recommend going with the aluminum unibody model if possible.
Gutshot John
07-29-10, 12:11
The Apple has a "milled receiver." Kickass. :dance3:
With that said there is one thing that I don't like about the macbook pro. The fact that the battery is not user replaceable. You have to take it to a certified mac dealer to replace the battery; or you risk voiding your warranty.
By the time your battery wears out you will probably be buying a new computer.
I have a 2007 MacBook pro and I bought an extra battery for it. I think the battery is still in the box somewhere....
I have a few amazing stories about AppleCare and the in store support. All true and all very good. So good, that they're almsot unbelievable.
I second or third that.
Mac Pro developed memory problems. Turns out it was a $75 on the open market memory riser. Apple Store tried to get one from their parts depot. After 2 weeks and no riser (my Mac Pro was a previous gen but still in first year warranty) they ordered me a new Mac Pro, current gen, that met or beat the specs on my 8 month old model and I had it in a week.
3 iphones replaced without issue (one original had developed intermittent-ness but no glass breakage after being dropped a few times -- no external damage -- 1 3GS had issues that I don't remember what the issue was and 1 3GS shorted out when I plugged it into a car cable - all replaced without issue).
MacBook had some graphics issues and they replaced the whole mainboard and overnighted it back to me -- it was gone like 3-4 days.
Never had an issue as long as there was not obvious neglect or negligence on my part.
(I have had many many more Macs so my actual issue rate is quite low).
I second or third that.
Mac Pro developed memory problems. Turns out it was a $75 on the open market memory riser. Apple Store tried to get one from their parts depot. After 2 weeks and no riser (my Mac Pro was a previous gen but still in first year warranty) they ordered me a new Mac Pro, current gen, that met or beat the specs on my 8 month old model and I had it in a week.
Almost the same exact story here. My Mac Pro was almost 3 years old and had less than 2 months left of Applecare. They tried to fix it twice. Both times it still wasn't working right. So the Apple store swapped it out for a brand new top of the line unit. And for my troubles they upgraded me to a Nvidia GTX285 Video card.
Voodoochild
07-29-10, 13:42
Slackware FTW!!!!
I personally can't stand the Apple offerings.
In your case - MacBook Pro, without a doubt.
Gutshot John
08-01-10, 11:52
I ended up going with the MacBook Pro i5 and 8 gigs RAM.
Any input if the Apple "one on one" program is worthwhile?
This is in addition to the AppleCare which I did purchase.
Littlelebowski
08-01-10, 11:54
I ended up going with the MacBook Pro i5 and 8 gigs RAM.
Any input if the Apple "one on one" program is worthwhile?
This is in addition to the AppleCare which I did purchase.
I see no compelling need for it.
I see no compelling need for it.
Agreed. You are set. I have the same machine except mine is an i7
I see no compelling need for it.
Agreed
If you are in a tech track (for example, information security) you will probably be able to figure out what you need. My impression of the 1-1 is for the newbie users who are not technically literate.
Preferred User
08-03-10, 01:00
As Littlelebowski wrote, you will find yourself running a lot of *nix and some Windows programs if you are in INFOSEC. If you check out the SANS offerings you will see many of the incident response classes are based on Linux. And even in Windows there is a lot of command line (SANS Command-Line Kung Fu was great).
If you want to pony up the extra dollars, the Mac Pro is nice. Check out the Apple Store for Education (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/education_routing) for some (minimal) discounts on Macs.
You can use a Mac at our agency if you are certified, so a lot of people run *nix on a Dell or some other commodity PC. I just picked up a Toshiba R700 for traveling, because while a big 17" screen, i7, 8GB monster is nice to use, carrying it sucks.
Littlelebowski
08-03-10, 06:13
He already made the purchase.
Preferred User
08-03-10, 07:56
He already made the purchase.
:embarrassed: day late and dollar short on my reply.
Gutshot John
09-11-10, 11:43
Here is a list of software that I can download for free for school.
Any particular suggestions for either Mac or PC.
Allegro Common Lisp
Analytica
Carnegie Mellon Web Certificates
Ciscat
Cisco AnyConnect VPN Client
Fetch
Fugu SFTP
Identity Finder
Java Runtime Environment (JRE)
Kerberos for Macintosh
Mathematica for Students
Matlab
Oracle Calendar Client
Oracle Calendar Client / KFW
Oracle Calendar Sync
Public Printing Installers
RobotStudio
S-PLUS
SAS
SSH Tectia Client
Spybot - Search & Destroy
Symantec AntiVirus
X-Win32
X-Win32
Here is a list of software that I can download for free for school.
If you have need or want to screw around with it, why not? Disk space is cheap.
Gutshot John
09-11-10, 11:55
If you have need or want to screw around with it, why not? Disk space is cheap.
Which?
Which?
Whatever ones you have a need for (like to access the college VPN), or to crunch data, or want to play with or try out.
Any or all as you need them or want to screw around with them.
If you don't plan on taking any AI or programming courses, you don't need the Lisp (though it is an interesting language to use).
I don't know what you need so cannot say in detail what you want or should try.
I know he bought it but I'm giving my .02 cents anyway...
Mac is the easy choice. It's the most secure, the highest quality hardware and OS, by far the most flexible for running multiple OS' either by virtualization or bare metal boot.
BTW when I went to the University of Illinois in 1990 after getting out of the Marine Corps the Apple student discount was around 40% off not $100 like it is now.
You can do much better than the Apple education discount. Apple insider keeps a list of best Mac deals here;
http://www.appleinsider.com/mac_price_guide/
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