View Full Version : Failed Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads
Just thought I would ask what rounds failed and why.
Wayne Dobbs
07-29-10, 22:56
They all have at one time or another.
BuckskinJoe
07-30-10, 03:48
To answer the poster's question, one must first have one or more working definitions of "failure," i.e., failed to do what?
For examples, "failure" could be defined as being unable to find or purchase certain ammunition. Another definition might be not meeting the minimum of 12" penetration. Another definition might be failure to produce a "one shot stop." (Gag! :suicide2:)
For the purposes of the FBI, failure is any load that does not penetration up to 12" in ballistic gel. Optimal is 12"-18" of penetration, while exceeding 18" is considered to be a waste of energy and wounding ability.
There is also the expansion component which is of secondary importance. The bullet needs to have rapid and reliable expansion in order to maximize the total wound volume. The expanded bullet also acts as a wadcutter which cuts more tissue instead of just pushing it aside as a FMJ bullet does.
If either component is "lacking", then the ammunition usually does not make Dr. Roberts' list of recommended duty ammunition.
Common failure points include projectiles not penetrating 12", projectiles having inadequate expansion--primarily with the 4 layer denim or heavy clothing test, and projectiles demonstrating poor intermediate barrier performance, particularly against automobile windshields. Well designed projectiles generally do not have any of these issues.
I'm asking about the ammo that has been tested and failed and why.
I'm OCD like that.
For examples, "failure" could be defined as being unable to find or purchase certain ammunition.
I totally get this point too.
Rude Robert
07-30-10, 20:46
I am not sure of failure loads but I wouldn't think you would have any failure for the 44mag in any load. Just my 2cents
"I am not sure of failure loads but I wouldn't think you would have any failure for the 44mag in any load. "
Upon what verifiable FACTS are you basing your hitherto unsupported supposition or is it mere meretricious conjecture?
I am not sure of failure loads but I wouldn't think you would have any failure for the 44mag in any load. Just my 2cents
Even a .44magnum load can fail to expand resulting in nothing more than a clean .44" hole through the body. If you compare total wounding volume, a reliably expanding 9mm would likely be better as it will take out more of the person's anatomy than a non expanding .44magnum.
Upon what verifiable FACTS are you basing your hitherto unsupported supposition or is it mere meretricious conjecture?
ROFLMAO... been up a little late have we????:D:p
Littlelebowski
07-31-10, 22:37
Upon what verifiable FACTS are you basing your hitherto unsupported supposition or is it mere meretricious conjecture?
He bases this of course, on his extensive research. Haven't you ran across his name professionally, Doc?
I think the OP is looking for calibers and cartridges that didn't catch on as self-defense loads, for whatever reason. As you can see from the responses so far, it's not that simple of a question.
I believe he interested in the loads that did not make the list of acceptable for duty/self-defense use and why.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
I'll play.
Locally we found the 9mm 124gr and 147gr Hydrashok rounds to be poor choices in duty ammo.
They would very often fail to expand after heavy clothing, and on the other hand they would also often fragment excessively in other situations such as barrier and unobstructed/light clothing shots, thus fail to penetrate deeply enough.
I recall one shooting we had where we saw both such behaviors.
I'll play.
Locally we found the 9mm 124gr and 147gr Hydrashok rounds to be poor choices in duty ammo.
They would very often fail to expand after heavy clothing, and on the other hand they would also often fragment excessively in other situations such as barrier and unobstructed/light clothing shots, thus fail to penetrate deeply enough.
I recall one shooting we had where we saw both such behaviors.
This is the kind of info I wanted. Thx.
We also found the 124 Hydrashok to be a poor chonce in based on performance in OISs. One time an MD told us we needed to get new ammo because the round he pulled out of the suspect could have been reloaded and used again. The suspect was fine after a brief recovery.
After switching to the .40 we had several shootings where the 155 Hydrashok showed poorly as well. Since switching to the 155 Tactical Bonded we have seen a dramatic improvement in performance and results in about a dozen or so OISs.
We also found the 124 Hydrashok to be a poor chonce in based on performance in OISs. One time an MD told us we needed to get new ammo because the round he pulled out of the suspect could have been reloaded and used again. The suspect was fine after a brief recovery.
After switching to the .40 we had several shootings where the 155 Hydrashok showed poorly as well. Since switching to the 155 Tactical Bonded we have seen a dramatic improvement in performance and results in about a dozen or so OISs.
An agency still using Hydra-Shok in 2010, would be as silly as one still using Silvertip, or driving 1980 Dodge Aspens........
I was just relaying some information from years back. We used the 9mm Hydrashok in the mid to late 90s and the .40 Hydrashok late 90s until early 2000s, probably 2001.
Silly, I agree. Still, it's surprising what some agencies and officers choose to issue, approve or carry. Many do not test ammunition prior to giving it the nod.
One time an MD told us we needed to get new ammo because the round he pulled out of the suspect could have been reloaded and used again.
Careful. The upper brass may see such a load as a way to save the department money on ammunition. :D
I can think of at least a dozens agencies that still use the Hydrashock. Folks in the LE firearms world who really, really know what they are doing can seem kind of rare.
BuckskinJoe
09-29-10, 18:19
I can think of at least a dozens agencies that still use the Hydrashock. Folks in the LE firearms world who really, really know what they are doing can seem kind of rare.
Two or three years ago, I was speaking with the SWAT commander of a large county Sheriff's Dept. and his chief firearms instructor. This department has used the .45 ACP Federal Hydra-Shok "forever." When I asked why they stay with the Hydra-Shok, the SWAT commander said they have never had any problems with it....Why change? A little later, I found out the department hadn't had an OIS in over 13 years!
Hey, I have to agree. The Federal Hydra-Shok has a remarkable record of success in this department! :p
240gr JSP from a 7.5" barrel. Failed to go through the car-door I shot. Failure from a .44 :confused:
Maybe it hit a window-winding arm.
I saw a case back in the early 90s (I don't have copies of the X-rays unfortunately) where a man was shot in the face while wearing spectacles. The bullet hit the outer rim of the spectacles on the left, where the arm meets the frame. The glass was smashed and the three branches of metal enveloped the bullet and were taken with the bullet into the eye. The bullet never made it into the brain but the spectacles could not be removed. When I saw the patient, the left arm of the spectacles was sticking out straight from the patient's face. On X-ray the arm "pointed" to the bullet in the orbit. Of course, the left eye was not viable but the patient was fully conscious and alert.
Two or three years ago, I was speaking with the SWAT commander of a large county Sheriff's Dept. and his chief firearms instructor. This department has used the .45 ACP Federal Hydra-Shok "forever." When I asked why they stay with the Hydra-Shok, the SWAT commander said they have never had any problems with it....Why change? A little later, I found out the department hadn't had an OIS in over 13 years!
Hey, I have to agree. The Federal Hydra-Shok has a remarkable record of success in this department! :p
Actually, LAPD SWAT and SIS both used .45 Hydra Shok for many years with quite a number of actual field shootings with it. There are better rounds made today, but the 230 grain Hydra Shok was pretty close to state of the art for it's time, with 13"+ of penetration and decent expansion. But that was then, and things have progressed in bullet technology.
BuckskinJoe
10-03-10, 07:35
Actually, LAPD SWAT and SIS both used .45 Hydra Shok for many years with quite a number of actual field shootings with it. There are better rounds made today, but the 230 grain Hydra Shok was pretty close to state of the art for it's time, with 13"+ of penetration and decent expansion. But that was then, and things have progressed in bullet technology.
Spot on.
I was just cracking wise and know that the Hydra-Shok did not cause the department not to have shootings.
Personally, I would *love* to see a list of bullets which failed testing. It would be helpful to point out to people who insist that "just because load XYZ isn't on the recommended list doesn't mean it's bad".
Doctor Roberts: You wouldn't happen to have a record of that, would you?
Upon what verifiable FACTS are you basing your hitherto unsupported supposition or is it mere meretricious conjecture? the above in response to a statement regarding .44 mags and this mythical thing called stopping power.....
In the deep dark recesses of my mind (which are getting deeper and darker by the day!!!) I recall reading a report back when they first tried introducing the 41 mag as a duty revolver. Details have left me. However - I do recall that the suspect was supine, and that the officer emptied all 6 into the thorax - cratering the asphalt that the suspect was on!!!! Said suspect got up and fled (or continued to fight - can't really recall which.)
jm
Maybe it hit a window-winding arm.
I saw a case back in the early 90s (I don't have copies of the X-rays unfortunately) where a man was shot in the face while wearing spectacles. The bullet hit the outer rim of the spectacles on the left, where the arm meets the frame. The glass was smashed and the three branches of metal enveloped the bullet and were taken with the bullet into the eye. The bullet never made it into the brain but the spectacles could not be removed. When I saw the patient, the left arm of the spectacles was sticking out straight from the patient's face. On X-ray the arm "pointed" to the bullet in the orbit. Of course, the left eye was not viable but the patient was fully conscious and alert.
I teach Forensic Science to Criminal Justice students, and use a similar radiograph in the ballistics section. I believe this was a suicide - and the bow of the glasses is seen running through the wound channel, where it stayed as the bullet left the head!
jm
Magic_Salad0892
10-11-10, 06:04
I would imagine that any cartridge for the FN Five-SeveN or P90 has failed. :rolleyes:
9mm 147g Hydra-Shock ammunition has not opened well in two local shootings. The rounds looked like someone used a bullet puller to remove the projectiles from the cases. I cannot really say that the ammunition failed, because both persons were deceased. I believe that shot placement was the critical factor.
Folks were a lot tougher about 40 years ago. In Silverton OR a man decided to kill his wife while she was sleeping. He stood over her and fired a .44 magnum into her chest. The round went through her, the bed, the floor, and lodged in the dirt in the crawl space. She woke up and said "Honey what happened?!!" She survived.
Nearby, within a few years +or-, two young boys were playing with a loaded .44 magnum they found on top of a refrigerator. One shot the other who then ran outside into the front yard and died.
There is no reasonably sized hand gun that is a death ray.
Dave
Boonie Packer
Glock17JHP
11-27-10, 13:12
In my testing, usually water... I have had Federal .38 Special +P 129 grain Hydra-Shock HP's fail to expand (and that was in WATER!!!). I have also seen poor/no expansion with PMC Starfire HP's, too. Another type of failure I see occasionally is loss of jacket after expansion. I have seen this (also in water, mind you... where it is more likely) with Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Saber. These loads appear to not have this issue too much in gelatin testing or actual shootings, however. Another type of failure I have seen in my testing is severe fragmentation to the point where 1/3 to 2/3 of the original bullet weight is lost, and the remaining projectile diameter is not much larger (if at all) than the original unexpanded bullet. This happened with 2 different Federal Hydra-Shock HP loads I tested in .357 Magnum. The bullet weights were 130 and 158 grain.
I have fired infamous 9mm 147gr Winchester Black Talon into water jugs with very poor results. The pistol was a Sig Sauer P228 at a range of 20 ft. The result was two petals opening slightly, and the rest looking like they didn't even move. FWIW I did the same test with .40 and .45 Ranger-T and got picture perfect expansion. Fortunately bullets are better today than they were 20 years ago, and expand much more reliably.
9mm 147g Hydra-Shock ammunition has not opened well in two local shootings. The rounds looked like someone used a bullet puller to remove the projectiles from the cases. I cannot really say that the ammunition failed, because both persons were deceased.
Whether they were deceased is less unimportant then whether the individuals stopped what they were doing that caused them to be shot. The Hydra Shok 147 grain performance in shootings I'm familiar with was more satisfactory, but that was many years ago. Why someone would still be using Hydra Shok 9mm in 2010 is beyond me though, as all of the majors make better loads than that today, many priced less to boot. When I asked a Federal rep why they still made it, he said because people still buy it, and shook his head. He told me they had departments that insisted on it, even when offered HST at less money. :confused:
I believe that shot placement was the critical factor.
It always is.
Maybe if we consider a handgun to be not quite what we see on TV or in the movies we would be a little less obsessed with expansion. Expansion can help as it may keep folks behind the target a little safer, but it really does not do too much at usual pistol velocity other than cause more bleeding. That can be a good thing if you have plenty of time to wait until their blood pressure drops to zero.
When made by the typical handgun round, a hole is a hole is a hole. If this hole is in the right place, anything will work. If it is in the wrong place, most of the time anything will work (unless you are a cop or a soldier). If it is in the wrong place at the wrong time or wrong situation, nothing will work immediately. There has been a lot of damage done by critters and folks who did not realize they were dead.
Dave
Boonie Packer
Today's best hollow point pistol bullets double their diameter in gelatin and then some. That expansion not only makes a bigger hole with more blood loss, it increases the possibility that something important and/or bleeds a lot will be struck as the bullet passes through tissue.
I've seen a number of shootings where a later surgery or autopsy revealed that a spleen, spine, etc., was only missed by millimeters. Giving up sufficient penetration for expansion was never a good idea, but today we don't have to.
There is another factor with regard to bleeding. One of my former brothers in law was a doggy doctor. He performed surgery on many gunshot dogs. He noticed that sometimes a round nosed bullet would actually bounce off a major blood vessel leaving only a bruise. The expanding bullets would usually cut, due to the jagged edges they almost always have.
Again though, one still has to wait for the blood pressure to drop to zero.
Dave
Boonie Packer
There is another factor with regard to bleeding. One of my former brothers in law was a doggy doctor. He performed surgery on many gunshot dogs. He noticed that sometimes a round nosed bullet would actually bounce off a major blood vessel leaving only a bruise. The expanding bullets would usually cut, due to the jagged edges they almost always have.
Dave
Boonie Packer
When I started in LE we carried 158 grain round nose lead, which was less than satisfactory in use. Just the switch to 158 grain semi wadcutters, with their sharp, square shoulders, that cut as they passed through, made a big difference in our shootings. Frankly, they worked better than the 125 grain JHP's we switched to next.
Again though, one still has to wait for the blood pressure to drop to zero.
Anything that can speed that process up is a good thing, though just greatly reduced blood pressure will dissuade many.
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