View Full Version : I fired my yard crew b/c they couldnt proove citizenship
They came by a couple months ago and were so cheap it was hard to pass it up. They could barely speak a lick, and requested cash only. I felt conflicted since I doubted they had followed protocol and I read that "Are Americans Obsolete" thread and took it as a sign. iGoogle hooked me up with żEs usted ciudadano de los USA? and I wrote it on a note and handed it to the head guy with his payment. He looked at me a little spooked like I was going to personally call INS; and shook his head. I replied with the culturally universal "Sorry Homes, no mas trabajo."
I feel better, and I need to do my own yard anyway; I used to until someone jacked my weedeater and blower out of my garage...im sure that person went on to start a yard biz...
Props to you sir for taking a stand!
RogerinTPA
07-31-10, 10:16
Good on you for taking a stand. In the Tampa area, the owner is always a white dude with a truck full of illegal mexicans.
Four years ago I had our cabin remodeled. With the general contractor I insisted that all workers be 'able to speak English'. He knew exactly what I meant and every single worker and supplier was legal except drywallers. The drywallers had obviously made the trek across the Arizona desert, but the general contractor insisted there were no American drywall crews. This was during the construction boom and housing peak, so maybe he was right. Looking back I should have told the general contractor to do the drywall himself.
jklaughrey
07-31-10, 11:06
We just had some illegal farm laborers arrested and sent to Seattle for deportation. They were discovered by a hit and run accident, with no insurance. Apparently driving a Ford Astro van with 14 people is unsafe.
Pumpkinheaver
07-31-10, 11:12
I applaud your stance on this issue. Wish more people would do as you did.
Littlelebowski
07-31-10, 11:21
This is an excellent example. Good for you and good for the country. Well done, sir!
I, too applaud what you did. Thanks for sharing it here and providing a good example for others to follow.
SeriousStudent
07-31-10, 11:48
Many people talk the talk. Thank you for walking the walk.
send 'em over to my place, i bet they're cheap.
jklaughrey
07-31-10, 11:56
BKB, come on man, just come to Yakima we need a few more gone if you "really" need them! Here in E. WA we are having a serious crack down on illegals, more specific those with gang and trafficking connections.
BKB, come on man, just come to Yakima we need a few more gone if you "really" need them! Here in E. WA we are having a serious crack down on illegals, more specific those with gang and trafficking connections.
the guys that roof and landscape and hang drywall are not the ones that traffic drugs. same as white people.
c'mon guys... you think you're going to find landscapers/gardeners/etc that are official American citizens? if you can get your hands on the 1 out of 500 white guy in that line of work, you'll be paying three-four times what you paid them mexis to do the work. if you're OK with that, i'm OK with it- but there it is.
i can respect taking a stand for what you believe in. i just don't understand how anyone thinks occasional discrimination is contributing to any kind of solution. that dude doesn't give a rip if he does your house- he's doing all the other houses in the neighborhood. but if you care, and nobody says you do or should, he probably doesn't care for being stigmatized as an in-valid, sub-human, lowest caste. but it's still better than the alternative, for him. he'd rather be sub-human in the land of the free than a citizen of Hell.
Apparently driving a Ford Astro van with 14 people is unsafe.
What, that's not okay?
jklaughrey
07-31-10, 12:11
While I agree with some of the points BKB, I still can't bring myself to violate the integrity within myself to hire said individuals. Besides my wife does a darn good job landscaping already. LOL
the guys that roof and landscape and hang drywall are not the ones that traffic drugs. same as white people.
And? It is still illegal for them to be here and probably illegal for you to hire them.
Illegal immigration is NOT about drugs. It is about massive costs for welfare, health care, etc, and about being a land that cares about the rule of law.
And hiring illegals distorts the true market value of the labor performed since they are not playing by the rules and paying taxes, social security and medicare, etc that a legal business would have to pay so it is not fair competition.
c'mon guys... you think you're going to find landscapers/gardeners/etc that are official American citizens? if you can get your hands on the 1 out of 500 white guy in that line of work, you'll be paying three-four times what you paid them mexis to do the work. if you're OK with that, i'm OK with it- but there it is.
You should pay what the (legal) market demands for that sort of work. If you don't think it is worth that much, then you can counter offer. But paying under the table to illegals is not fair competition and is not fair open markets since the rules are different for one party than another.
i can respect taking a stand for what you believe in. i just don't understand how anyone thinks occasional discrimination is contributing to any kind of solution.
How is this discriminatory (by which I assume you mean prejudiced in the political sense)?
that dude doesn't give a rip if he does your house- he's doing all the other houses in the neighborhood. but if you care, and nobody says you do or should, he probably doesn't care for being stigmatized as an in-valid, sub-human, lowest caste. but it's still better than the alternative, for him. he'd rather be sub-human in the land of the free than a citizen of Hell.
The illegals could be white guys from Croatia and I would still not hire them. This has nothing to do with in-valid, sub-human, lowest caste discrimination. It has to do with following the law.
if you can get your hands on the 1 out of 500 white guy in that line of work, you'll be paying three-four times what you paid them mexis to do the work.
And therein lies the problem. The illegal that takes cash under the table is not paying taxes on his earnings, which partially subsidizes his low wage scale comepared to the white guy that charges more but pays income taxes and runs his business by the rules.
By the way, in my neighborhood, the guy that runs his landscape business by the rules, be he white, black or whatever, only charges a few $ more than the illegals that don't, and nowhere near 100% more, let alone the 300%to 400% you are referring to. But I understand that it may be different in your neighborhood.
But I don't pay either of them because I do it myself, and I do it better than either could. That, plus I need the exercise. :D
And? It is still illegal for them to be here and probably illegal for you to hire them.
Illegal immigration is NOT about drugs. It is about massive costs for welfare, health care, etc, and about being a land that cares about the rule of law.
i was responding to a comment about a connection between illegals and drug trafficking. but massive costs associated with this country's government's willingness to tax you to pay for them doesn't have anything to do with them. they come to work- they cant even vote for the POS politicians that have made it so beneficial for them to come up here.
And hiring illegals distorts the true market value of the labor performed since they are not playing by the rules and paying taxes, social security and medicare, etc that a legal business would have to pay so it is not fair competition.
it doesn't "distort the true market value," it changes the market value. change in labor markets happen- the industry evolves to adapt to what's there.
You should pay what the (legal) market demands for that sort of work. If you don't think it is worth that much, then you can counter offer. But paying under the table to illegals is not fair competition and is not fair open markets since the rules are different for one party than another.
most "illegals" are actually fully licensed, bonded, and insured, or work for somebody who is. i'm sure there's plenty of under-the-table going on, but that's across the board- and most of the under-the-table pay is going into american citizens' pockets.
but from what i've seen in this industry (construction contracting), most "illegals" work for the large American companies. the roofing company i worked for before i went independent had about 150 roofers- every single one of them was mexican, and only the crew leaders spoke english, and usually only very little. think any of those guys are citizens? all paying taxes, medicare, SS, etc- none of which they'll likely ever collect on.
How is this discriminatory (by which I assume you mean prejudiced in the political sense)?
i'm using the literal definition, not a political sense. firing somebody for not being a citizen, by definition, discriminating against them for not being a citizen. i wasn't putting any further meaning into the statement than that.
[quote]
The illegals could be white guys from Croatia and I would still not hire them. This has nothing to do with in-valid, sub-human, lowest caste discrimination. It has to do with following the law.
but would you verify their status, just because they have a slavic accent? i doubt it.
And therein lies the problem. The illegal that takes cash under the table is not paying taxes on his earnings, which partially subsidizes his low wage scale comepared to the white guy that charges more but pays income taxes and runs his business by the rules.
all the large corps withhold from their employee's pay- i.e., the "illegals" working for them DO in fact pay taxes and SS and medicare and so forth. basically all of the smaller companies pay ALL of their employees under-the-table, be they white, mexican, or martian.
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i don't know what licensing requirements are like in other states, and i'm not a landscaper and dont know anything about the licensing nor business end of landscaping even in my own state. i do know that you're required to be licensed with the Construction Contracting Board to call yourself, and operate as, a "Landscaper." the issue here is not whether these guys are citizens, it's whether they're properly licensed, bonded, and insured. if they are, their costs are exactly the same as everyone elses'. doesn't matter if they're legal, illegal, citizen, not citizen- you think most white contractors pay all their taxes? hell no. you think they withold from their employee's paychecks? hell no. most of these independent contractors just fly as high as they have to to look legitimate to uncle sam.
i don't mean to use absolutes here- there are plenty of guys out there that do everything by the book, large and small companies alike. but you have to remember that the vast majority of contracting "companies" in this country are SPs and S-Corps with 1 employee- the owner, on paper.
it doesn't "distort the true market value," it changes the market value. change in labor markets happen- the industry evolves to adapt to what's there.
It does distort it since they are not playing by the same rules. Most yard work crews work for small companies or are independent day laborers.
It does distort it since they are not playing by the same rules. Most yard work crews work for small companies or are independent day laborers.
read my following posts- this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they're illegal or legally in this country.
I applaud you sir. If everyone would do the same I don't think illegal immigration would be such a problem. Just my 2 cents worth...
kaiservontexas
07-31-10, 14:45
I do my own yard. I enjoy it. I know that sounds insane being Texas, but it is healthy in my opinion.
read my following posts- this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not they're illegal or legally in this country.
Whether a given lawn care company is operating legally is a separate question and problem.
Illegal alien workers distort the market and are a big drain on government resources. We should not be condoning and supporting that.
Even if other lawn care companies only fly high enough to avoid suspicion by uncle sam, that is still an additional expense over the illegals who do not even do that. And some illegals use other peoples' SSN to get jobs. Overall the true cost of these cheap workers is much higher to society than the benefits they provide. Whether it be increased welfare costs, identity fraud, market distortion, or a combination of that all, their true costs are not being paid by those using the service. We are all paying for it.
And it is illegal. We claim to be a nation that respects the rule of law.
it's not a separate issue, it's THE issue. how you came into this country doesn't mean anything. do you think a mexican with a work visa is going to demand more money than a mexican who swam across the rio? he's not worth any more than the other 10 guys in line with somebody else's SS number to me- how would i ever even know who was who?
it's not our job to worry about it. as far as im concerned, if you're in this country, you need to be treated with the expectation that you're fully entlitled to be here, with all the benefits available to myself or you or that most famous illegal immigrant of all Obama, and until there's a preponderance of evidence otherwise. it's the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT's job to protect our boarders if they need protecting, and to NOT create a society that rewards moochers.
all the large corps withhold from their employee's pay- i.e., the "illegals" working for them DO in fact pay taxes and SS and medicare and so forth.
Yes, I am fully aware of that. But we were talking lawn services, not IBP/Tyson.
The lawn service I used to use when I traveled most of the time for work was incorporated, took checks for payment and had company trucks for their english-speaking crews. Do I know for sure they paid their taxes - no, but I am willing to bet they did and do.
basically all of the smaller companies pay ALL of their employees under-the-table, be they white, mexican, or martian.
I take great exception to this statement. I see that you softened it in a later post but I will comment anyway.
My own company is Schedule C sole proprietorship and I have never paid a subcontractor under the table. They always get checks and a 1099 at the end of the year. I have never not filed a tax return and I have always paid taxes on my earnings. And my friends who have small businesses do the same thing.
Way to go! Now if we could justly report the company and expect our govt to take care of the company and the illegals, that would be a good start. Its about breaking the law and "upholding" the law. It is just not taken seriously as with the Govt vs Arizona. Who can sue the govt for not upholding the laws?
i can respect taking a stand for what you believe in. i just don't understand how anyone thinks occasional discrimination is contributing to any kind of solution. that dude doesn't give a rip if he does your house- he's doing all the other houses in the neighborhood. but if you care, and nobody says you do or should, he probably doesn't care for being stigmatized as an in-valid, sub-human, lowest caste. but it's still better than the alternative, for him. he'd rather be sub-human in the land of the free than a citizen of Hell.
I'm not discriminating. I'll hire any Mexican, as long as they have a green card.
If all they want to do is live and work in the land of the free. All they have to do is apply for a work visa. I work with several people who are in this country LEGALY with work visas. They are completely fine with me. I have no problem with that.
Oh wait; if they are here legally then employers can't hire them as slave labor. So then they will have just as hard of a time finding a job as a white guy.
Littlelebowski
08-01-10, 09:41
I do my own yard. I enjoy it. I know that sounds insane being Texas, but it is healthy in my opinion.
I do that in Virginia :D
VooDoo6Actual
08-01-10, 09:53
Outstanding !
I'm not discriminating.
you are putting more meaning into that word than it bears. but that is, in fact, exactly what you did. you refused service from someone based on his status. discrimination is just a word that conveys the act of being selective- don't put any additional meaning into it.
I'll hire any Mexican, as long as they have a green card.
If all they want to do is live and work in the land of the free. All they have to do is apply for a work visa. I work with several people who are in this country LEGALY with work visas. They are completely fine with me. I have no problem with that.
Oh wait; if they are here legally then employers can't hire them as slave labor. So then they will have just as hard of a time finding a job as a white guy.
they don't issue H1Bs for landscapers. nor roofers. nor framers. nor masons. nor tile setters. the only people who get work visas are nerds from pakistan.
Don Robison
08-01-10, 10:18
you are putting more meaning into that word than it bears. but that is, in fact, exactly what you did. you refused service from someone based on his status. discrimination is just a word that conveys the act of being selective- don't put any additional meaning into it.
So in the interest of not offending or discriminating you would be good with hiring a convicted pedophile as a babysitter for your kids if they applied?
To the OP good on ya' for being discriminating in who you let work for you.:D
So in the interest of not offending or discriminating you would be good with hiring a convicted pedophile as a babysitter for your kids if they applied?
To the OP good on ya' for being discriminating in who you let work for you.:D
dont put more value into a word than it deserves.
Don Robison
08-01-10, 10:34
dont put more value into a word than it deserves.
I'm not, you are the one who appears to be offended that he would fire someone because they couldn't prove they were in the country legally. I've went through the citizenship/legal immigration process with family members and it's a PITA; I have no use for someone here illegally.
Littlelebowski
08-01-10, 10:44
And the "nerds from Pakistan" usually end up settling down here. Not sending their money home. Mexico's 2nd largest source of foreign income (after oil) is this money. By hiring illegal aliens, you are becoming part of the problem. You are contributing to their anchor babies their ability to flout our law, and the Mexican gov't's filthy, cynical hand in encouraging their citizens to live as second class citizens in the US.
I'm not, you are the one who appears to be offended that he would fire someone because they couldn't prove they were in the country legally. I've went through the citizenship/legal immigration process with family members and it's a PITA; I have no use for someone here illegally.
i never said, implied, or meant that the specific discrimination was a bad thing. that was read into my statement- my statement was entirely neutral. "the occasional discrimination," meaning "the occasional selective refusal to hire illegals"
lets move the **** on.
I always wondered why the USG, and the Mexican Government for that matter, don't just slap a 10-20% duty on remittances.
GermanSynergy
08-01-10, 13:38
Good on ya. OP.
It really ticks me off that people have to go through a lengthy process to come here LEGALLY, while some folks have the red carpet rolled out when they come from south of the border illegally.....
Of course, we're not supposed to notice this or talk about it..... :nono:
they don't issue H1Bs for landscapers. nor roofers. nor framers. nor masons. nor tile setters. the only people who get work visas are nerds from pakistan.
I believe there are other sorts of work visas besides the H1Bs for tech people
Don Robison
08-01-10, 14:07
I believe there are other sorts of work visas besides the H1Bs for tech people
Yep
http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/evisas_work_H2.html
Visa Services
Work visas - Temporary Laborer H2 Visas
H2 visas are intended for unskilled or skilled laborers (not professional or degreed employees) to work in the U.S. on a temporary or seasonal basis. They are petition-based visas, meaning that a U.S. employer must submit a request for the workers by obtaining a Labor Certification from the U.S. Department of Labor and receiving approval of an I-129 petition from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security. H2 visas were initiated in 1943 with the importation of workers to fill a labor shortage in the sugar cane industry. The first workers in the program came from the Bahamas to be cane cutters. The program changed significantly in the 1980s with the division of H2 visas into two categories, which are still in place today:
* H2-A - agricultural workers (planting and harvesting crops)
* H2-B - non-agricultural workers (e.g., landscaping, construction, forestry-planting or cutting, hotel cleaning staff)
Mexico's 2nd largest source of foreign income (after oil) is this money.
Does that include narcotraffic?
Heartland Hawk
08-02-10, 06:49
Good on ya OP. I just can't get behind some of the moral relativity expressed in this thread.
When I had my house built, I made sure I used someone that used all US citizen subs. He did, and I was happy. When I did my landscaping (and I did it all btw) the one thing I let out was laying the sod. I picked a pretty reputable sod co, that everyone was using. I told the owner that I wanted all US citizens on the crew, I don't care about thier origins, as long as they were citizens or he H2b'd them. He said OK. When the crews showed up, it was all illegals. I asked them and they admitted it. I asked the foreman if they were H2b'd, and he said no (he didn't even know what that was). I told them to pack up thier shit and leave. I hired another company that had mostly college kids and a few older guys. They did a good job.
If you aren't taking a stand, and not allowing this shit in your personal life, then YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM, period. I have seen, first hand, what a massive influx of illegal immigration will do to the local economy, to hospitals, to schools. Now I really don't blame these guys for wanting to come here and just work. And I agree the immigration system is screwed. But do it the RIGHT WAY. get sponsored by a company, and get an H2, and come here to work. But don't sneak through our deserts in the dead of night.
my .02
Good on you sir!
Last summer my GF and I bought a condo and had it totally guttet and re-done. The GC was Mexican... half his crew did not speak english. Only reason I went with them was because they had done good work for my uncle, and thir price came in at just a little over HALF what the other guys asked. I could not afford to be very patriotic at that moment. :(
That is why they keep comming over here, they can ask for half the price for their work, undercut any other offer around and people will hire them to save money. At that time, I was part of the problem and it makes me sad to admit that, but I was on a budget and had no way around it short of doing the work myself.
Four years ago I had our cabin remodeled. With the general contractor I insisted that all workers be 'able to speak English'. He knew exactly what I meant and every single worker and supplier was legal except drywallers. The drywallers had obviously made the trek across the Arizona desert, but the general contractor insisted there were no American drywall crews. This was during the construction boom and housing peak, so maybe he was right. Looking back I should have told the general contractor to do the drywall himself.
I would almost believe him. I have never seen an America Drywall crew that wasn't slow as Christmas.
I assume it's cause they are all the same height and can hold the board on their head more even :lol:
Heartland Hawk
08-02-10, 12:18
I would almost believe him. I have never seen an America Drywall crew that wasn't slow as Christmas.
I assume it's cause they are all the same height and can hold the board on their head more even :lol:
:haha:
Good on you sir!
Last summer my GF and I bought a condo and had it totally guttet and re-done. The GC was Mexican... half his crew did not speak english. Only reason I went with them was because they had done good work for my uncle, and thir price came in at just a little over HALF what the other guys asked. I could not afford to be very patriotic at that moment. :(
That is why they keep comming over here, they can ask for half the price for their work, undercut any other offer around and people will hire them to save money. At that time, I was part of the problem and it makes me sad to admit that, but I was on a budget and had no way around it short of doing the work myself.
That's not the only reason people hire them. 9 times out of 10 the work they do is 100 times better and will be completed in 1/3 of the time of a US Worker. Or at least that is the case around here.
If they would take the time to get a work visa, they could make a killing. Instead of being treated like a slave and only earning pennies on the dollar.
I've always done my own lawn. No matter how cheap someone is willing to do it I figure that amount will still buy lunch. So every time I mow my own lawn I get a free lunch.
The lone exception is is when I lived in a real crap neighborhood in Ft. Lauderdale when I was young and trying to save up to buy a house in a real neighborhood.
I was teaching martial arts to some of the local kids and a couple of them just didn't have a nickel to their name. So I let them do the yard in trade for classes. They didn't do the greatest job, but I wanted to let them earn it rather than get just another handout.
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