View Full Version : NYC panel clears way for mosque near ground zero
NEW YORK – A city panel Tuesday cleared the way for the construction near ground zero of a mosque that has caused a political uproar over religious freedom and Sept. 11 even as opponents vowed to press their case in court.
The Landmarks Preservation Commission voted unanimously to deny landmark status to a building two blocks from the World Trade Center site that developers want to tear down and convert into an Islamic community center and mosque. The panel said the 152-year-old lower Manhattan building isn't distinctive enough to be considered a landmark.
The decision drew praise from Mayor Michael Bloomberg, who stepped before cameras on Governor's Island with the Statue of Liberty as a backdrop shortly after the panel voted and called the mosque project a key test of Americans' commitment to religious freedom.
Saw that this morning... and the way Bloomberg spoke about it makes me want to vommit!
I don't know how other on here feel about it, but it makes me sick! I would love to see someone try to build a church or synagogue in Saudi Arabia. That will go over well. Freedome of Religion aside, this is just a slap in the face to those who lost loved ones.
I did not loose anyone in my family [aunt worked in Blg1 but was on vacation] My mom lost a lot of friends [she works in the financial industry] and my friend lost his uncle. This is just an insult and I would love to see who is paying off Comunity Board 1 and the LPC to get this pushed through.
As an Jr Architect in the area, I have worked with LPC and they are a pain in the ass! All a client wanted to do was to put a 300sf addition on his home in Queens and I had to produce 14 drawings, mouted on boards, photos blah blah blah, and go back 3 times for hearings over the cource of 6 months before it was approved. These jerks-offs go ahead and deny landmark status to this building in 30 seconds and say build your masque...
Makes me sick.
Either we believe in the Constitution, or we don't. Pick one. The 1st Amendment is pretty clear about religion and government. That amendment has been upheld to apply to local governments as well, and I bet NY has it's own version of the 1st...
If private companies want to keep them from owning that building, they will. It is in conflict with our supreme law that a government intervene on the grounds of religious disapproval.
Either we believe in the Constitution, or we don't. Pick one. The 1st Amendment is pretty clear about religion and government. That amendment has been upheld to apply to local governments as well, and I bet NY has it's own version of the 1st...
Agreed. People need to slow down, think, and re-approach this in an intelligent manner. While I absolutely abhor this and think it goes against everything our country has fought for, we can't just throw it out because we don't like it - it's clearly covered in and by the Constitution and the Amendments. If we create precedent by stopping the mosque's construction based on religion alone, we've also signed the death warrant for every Christian church in this nation.
If we stop this mosque based on religion alone, then we've done ourselves in. It needs to be stopped on grounds other than religion (i.e. dishonoring those who died in the 9/11 attacks).
parishioner
08-04-10, 10:52
It needs to be stopped on grounds other than religion (i.e. dishonoring those who died in the 9/11 attacks).
That argument still has ties to religion. If not, why would a mosque near the site of ground zero be "dishonoring" those who died?
Yea this is tricky. My libertarian side wants to allow them to go forth with the mosque as it is clearly covered by the first amendment but its difficult to accept this since this certain religion has millions and millions of members associated with it who were directly involved in the biggest massacre on our soil we have seen and want nothing short of the complete destruction of the United States. Tough call.
No one is saying "Don't build it" People are just asking that their deceased loved ones' memories be respected and not build it there.
I truly feel this is a direct slap in the face by to builders of this mosque to the people who lost loved ones and the country as a whole.
This may be my oppinion alone, but think of the messege is sends to the Islamic world; "If you distroy a few buildings and kill a few thousand people ala will erect a huge mosque in its place! So keep blowing them up!"
BARF!
For those opposed to this you do realize that
1: The Mosque was already there. They are just building a new one to replace the old one. Not sure if the new one is closer or further away however.
and
2: There were about 60 Muslims who died during the 9/11 attacks. It isn't like this is really about religion anyway.
This is like saying you can not build or rebuild a Christian church near the site of the Oklahoma City bombing.
The panel said the 152-year-old lower Manhattan building isn't distinctive enough to be considered a landmark.
It is an architecturally beautiful building deserving of preservation regardless of what they want to put there. Irreplaceable once it's gone, like most others from the era.
But it sounds like the muslims are prepared to throw too much money around so no one gives a shit. The decision really sucks on numerous levels.
I do not think it is he proper place to build. The folks behind the project are not being sensitive and appear to be trying to cause problems. They want to open the doors on the tenth anniversiary of 9-11. Why? Tolerance and respect is important it also should be a two way street.
Tolerance of a religion that thinks we should believe in their god or die? Tolerance in place of common sense is killing us slowly.
Tolerance of a religion that thinks we should believe in their god or die? Tolerance in place of common sense is killing us slowly.
You realize they worship the same god as the Christian and Jewish religion right?
Also you realize this has less to do with the religion and more to do with our perceived interference in their area (and religion). We have been screwing around over there since the late 1700s and some of them really don't appreciate it.
Tolerance of a religion that thinks we should believe in their god or die? Tolerance in place of common sense is killing us slowly.
I agree and the fact is the people who knocked down those buildings did it because of their religious beliefs. O one is saying they can not build but build it a few blocks away or across town not near the site of the attack. It actually disgusts me.
I can't belive this is even a possibility how quickly we forget.
Either we believe in the Constitution, or we don't. Pick one. The 1st Amendment is pretty clear about religion and government. That amendment has been upheld to apply to local governments as well, and I bet NY has it's own version of the 1st...
I dont think it could have been said any better.
I belive in the constitution. I also belive in common sense.
Should a person be able to walk into Colimbine High School wearing a trench coat and carrying a bunch of guns? Of course not .
It has nothing to do with freedom of religion. It has everything to do with respect and common sense. It is insulting to think about. Is this the only place in NYC to build. Of course not.
I do not think it is he proper place to build.
Me either. However, if a private group wants to stop them, they could. Do they care enough? Or have enough money to stop it? Unlikely.
The government, nor any of their pseudo-government "private" boards, can legally protest the building on the basis it being Muslims who want to build.
Think about the Patriot Act. It looks great when someone is applying those very dangerous laws to bad guys/Muslims/Nazis, etc. When they apply a no warrant phone tap to a US Citizen on US soil, because the law says they can?? What then?
Either we believe in the Constitution, or we don't. If we don't believe in the 1st Amendment, then we don't believe in the 2nd either. It's all from the same cloth.
Pick wisely.
The government, nor any of their pseudo-government "private" boards, can legally protest the building on the basis it being Muslims who want to build.
I agree... but that is not the part that upsets me, clearly the LPC and Com Board 1 were paid off. What upsets me is that some people who voice their oppinion that this is a good thing, like Mayor Bloomberg and can not see the forest through the trees.
Would be interesting to see if an investigation into this organization shows that they get fundings from groups that have less that good intentions toward the US. What then... will anyone speak up then?
Would be interesting to see if an investigation into this organization shows that they get fundings from groups that have less that good intentions toward the US. What then... will anyone speak up then?
There are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc, etc meeting places, mosques, and flop houses already in dozens or tens of dozens of places throughout the US.
Maybe we should have been doing something about all those known terrorist connections for the last two decades? Hmm...
Either we believe in the Constitution, or we don't. Pick one. The 1st Amendment is pretty clear about religion and government. That amendment has been upheld to apply to local governments as well, and I bet NY has it's own version of the 1st...
If private companies want to keep them from owning that building, they will. It is in conflict with our supreme law that a government intervene on the grounds of religious disapproval.
Well first off those rights are the rights of US citizens. They do not automatically extend to foreign nationals.
Second, if I can have my rights limited, we can limit the rights of US citizens who want to be Muslim. Their religion poses a far greater risk to this country than my desire to register an M-16.
Third, even IF I am allowed to register an M-16 I cannot walk around ground zero with it. So even when legal, the government has stated there are times and places that can be restricted.
Should a person be able to walk into Colimbine High School wearing a trench coat and carrying a bunch of guns? Of course not .
That's a straw man argument. You can't use a flawed interpretation of the law as an example to show the validity of your own interpretation (unless you're willing to admit it's flawed as well).
If the 2nd Amendment was interpreted correctly and guns could be carried everywhere, even in school, Columbine would never have happened as the shooter wouldn't have had a chance to get a shot off. The problem arises from the fact that the government doesn't allow guns in most schools, so the only people who would take guns in are criminals. Likewise, the 1st Amendment clearly protects the rights to build mosques as well. The problem is that this isn't a 1st Amendment issue (or rather, shouldn't be); it's a matter of a known terrorism-driven religion trying to desecrate a site where thousands of innocent Americans lost their lives because of that religion. As long as we treat this as a 1st Amendment issue, then one of two things will happen: either they will win and the mosque gets built or we trample the 1st Amendment in the name of patriotism and destroy our rights for future generations.
Separate the evidence from the argument. It's not that they're building a mosque and it's not about "freedom of speech" or "freedom of religion"; it's about the cover-up of mass-murder being paraded as such.
Second, if I can have my rights limited, we can limit the rights of US citizens who want to be Muslim. Their religion poses a far greater risk to this country than my desire to register an M-16.
So as long as it's not your ox being gored, you are Ok with it? That about sum it up?
The problem is that this isn't a 1st Amendment issue (or rather, shouldn't be); it's a matter of a known terrorism-driven religion trying to desecrate a site where thousands of innocent Americans lost their lives because of that religion.
Yep. And as the SCOTUS is so fond of telling us, rights have limits. So if you want to be a practicing Muslim you must have been a Muslim and a US citizen PRIOR to 9-11-2001 and you must pay a $200 tax. And of course you will be completely registered with the Federal government.
All other illegal Muslims will be treated with the same consideration as anyone with a non registered machine gun.
All towns and cities have zoning laws and regulations and restrict what can be built where. As such, this is not a 1A issue.
I know other churches have had all sorts of problems getting permits to build or expand or had to follow certain guidelines.
I know the LDS Temple in Boston, for example, had problems getting its steeple approved and had to chop it down in height, for example. The Temple was dedicated and put into service before the steeple was built, which is unusual. (I was living in the area at the time and was actually there the day the steeple was being put up).
If the neighbors don't want you, they very often use the planning boards and zoning commissions to stop you.
Yep. And as the SCOTUS is so fond of telling us, rights have limits. So if you want to be a practicing Muslim you must have been a Muslim and a US citizen PRIOR to 9-11-2001 and you must pay a $200 tax. And of course you will be completely registered with the Federal government.
All other illegal Muslims will be treated with the same consideration as anyone with a non registered machine gun.
All logic-leaps and fallacies aside, that's a VERY slippery slope you're going down. Believe me when I say I'd do anything to see that mosque demolished (if/when it's built), but I'd also rather see that mosque built than live in a country where the Amendments can be twisted and trampled as easily as you just argued.
montanadave
08-04-10, 14:01
Either we believe in the Constitution, or we don't. Pick one. The 1st Amendment is pretty clear about religion and government. That amendment has been upheld to apply to local governments as well, and I bet NY has it's own version of the 1st...
If private companies want to keep them from owning that building, they will. It is in conflict with our supreme law that a government intervene on the grounds of religious disapproval.
Bingo!
All logic-leaps and fallacies aside, that's a VERY slippery slope you're going down. Believe me when I say I'd do anything to see that mosque demolished (if/when it's built), but I'd also rather see that mosque built than live in a country where the Amendments can be twisted and trampled as easily as you just argued.
I think rather that he is making a different point. A point about the absurdity of the NFA as a violation of rights.
You realize they worship the same god as the Christian and Jewish religion right?
Also you realize this has less to do with the religion and more to do with our perceived interference in their area (and religion). We have been screwing around over there since the late 1700s and some of them really don't appreciate it.
Read the Koran and get back to me. It is only about religion. If you think the Bible and the Koran teach the same things you are mistaken. Believing in the same god means nothing.
All towns and cities have zoning laws and regulations and restrict what can be built where. As such, this is not a 1A issue.
The board that decides those matters already gave it the green light, according to the news on all stations. So certainly you can't put a gas station in something zoned residential, or a church in something zoned industrial; heavy.
That wasn't at issue, as best I could tell. The zoning was open for the mosque, but some people took issue with it being Muslims. A clear 1A issue when these pseudo-government boards get involved.
The real question is this: will they (the city) interfere if some zealous Americans decide to open and surround the mosque with pork BBQ vendors. That'll tell us how the city is really treating this issue.
variablebinary
08-04-10, 14:24
It's bullshit. I am a 9/11 survivor. Nearly everyone I worked with in Tower 2 is dead.
This is nothing more than a thumb in the eye of the United States.
It's disgusting and disrespectful. If anyone would have proposed a shrine to Tojo next to the Arizona site they literally might have been shot.
This is another sign of what the USA is all about these days. I wouldnt shed a tear if someone burned this "Islamic center" to the ground
This is another sign of what the USA is all about these days. I wouldnt shed a tear if someone burned this "Islamic center" to the ground
Burning? That's too good for it.
It's bullshit. I am a 9/11 survivor. Nearly everyone I worked with in Tower 2 is dead.
This is nothing more than a thumb in the eye of the United States.
It's disgusting and disrespectful. If anyone would have proposed a shrine to Tojo next to the Arizona site they literally might have been shot.
This is another sign of what the USA is all about these days. I wouldnt shed a tear if someone burned this "Islamic center" to the ground
...and those may be private matters that someone deals with. The government, or their boards, have no place in rejecting it assuming the zoning is correct, papers in order, fees paid, etc.
That being said, didn't Guiliani use that same board to shut down strip clubs in absence of an actual law outlawing them?
Seems like the AG needed to take a stand, and suddenly make the building permits and union labor requirements EXTREMELY high....
Wonder if any unionize ironworkers will do the work? If they bring in non-union, it might actually become the blood in the streets kind of old school deal.
We'll see.
This is another sign of what the USA is all about these days.
I completely agree, it is rather pathetic. Offensive, really. But no less so than our President bowing to a muslim dictator.
The immediate surrounding area was destroyed in the name of islam. Make the statement that this actually matters to most of us, because it does.
Find a way and get it done. They would have here in the same US years ago, surely we can today.
The board that decides those matters already gave it the green light, according to the news on all stations. So certainly you can't put a gas station in something zoned residential, or a church in something zoned industrial; heavy.
That wasn't at issue, as best I could tell. The zoning was open for the mosque, but some people took issue with it being Muslims. A clear 1A issue when these pseudo-government boards get involved.
The board(s) that gave it a green light are not Zoning. Community Board 1, which is nothing but a bunch of yentas who have nothing to do yelling about what can and can't be built having no knowledge of zoning said its okay, and the Landmark's Preservation Commision did not issue Landmark Status to the building being asked to me torn down to make way.
Zoning gets examined once the Architect, submits his PW-1 [permit applications] and drawing for permit
Okay, broke out the NYC Zoning ordinance. [Nice having these things sometimes] For those who want to fallow along:
map 12B: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcp/html/zone/zonedex.shtml
The site as I recall is on the block bordered by Church Street on the east, West Broadway on the West, Park Place on the south, and Murray Street on the north.
This is in zone C or Commercial, C6-4 to be exact.
Nowere in section 32-10 of the Zoning Code of the city of NY was I able to find a "Religious Center" permited as-of-right, Though Community Facility is allowed in General Central Commercial C6. I will have to look closer as I don't have much time to devote to it right now, but I am almost positive they will go for a variance or permision by special permit, which I am sure will be allowed.
C6 allowes use groupd 5-12
5 - hotels
6 - retail stores
7 - home maintenance and repair service
8 - amusement or service establishments
9 - business serving large groups
10 - large retail
11 - custome manufacturing
12 - fairley large entertainment establishments
Will have to look into it further, but I doubt there is a way to stop this using the zoning code. Then again, when ever I had bulding permit applications go into the NYCDOB 95% of the objections came back as zoning issues.
If an examiner at the DOB wanted to be a hard ass, he could delay the application prosses by month while the Architect answers objections. When you go into the DOB with the AI-1 form to answer Objections on a Blg Permit app, even if you file as "Self Certified Objections" [which means you put your lisence on the line saying that the way you answer them is correct and the examiner does not have to look up if you are right or not] you only get a 15minute appointment. It would take our expiditers 3 or 4 trips to get 20 or 30 objections answered and pull a permit, and this was on simple stuff. Talk about a 13-story, $100MIL building and you may have a list of objections miles long.
Based on my experience, which is limited to less than 3 years dealing with them, a building like this "should" take a few months to a year to go through DOB. What I fear that that once again, someone will get paid off and they will pull a permit in 5 days.
We shall see...
I wouldnt shed a tear if someone burned this "Islamic center" to the ground
I will risk the "Public Urination" ticket to pee on the ashes....
Was that out of line? Please don't ban me.
...and those may be private matters that someone deals with. The government, or their boards, have no place in rejecting it assuming the zoning is correct, papers in order, fees paid, etc.
That being said, didn't Guiliani use that same board to shut down strip clubs in absence of an actual law outlawing them?
Seems like the AG needed to take a stand, and suddenly make the building permits and union labor requirements EXTREMELY high....
Wonder if any unionize ironworkers will do the work? If they bring in non-union, it might actually become the blood in the streets kind of old school deal.
We'll see.
Im pretty sure the job will be union, very few jobs in NYC are not.
I think Guiliani used zoning code to have the strip clubs/peep shows move.
Part 32.01 was put in in 9/04 so I am not sure if there was a previous version of it but it is "Special Provisions for Adult Establishments" and has a ton of restrictions... 500' from school, house of worship, residence etc.
to me it shows that many muslims hate the Christians and hate the US not all but many are OK with the idea of the US collapsing and they get their rule and way of life and dont care about others and the thoughts of others that died their that day !
look at history and where they are built usually on things they have conquered !
we are NOT founded as a muslim nation
so things that are sacred to this nation as a WHOLE should be kept that way
to say well they have the right to build where they want ? then I guess people can claim in the name of religion I can build my church in parks or at yosemite ? the gov has the right to protect ground for certain reasons and 9/11 is a good reason to protect that area
yes you can have your place of worship but you are also going to have it in certain places
I bet if this was a HUGE catholic or Christian church it would be shot down
Has anyone else seen these pictures? They were sent to me in an email last week. Kinda weird NYPD is in the pictures and letting them block traffic in the city.
http://a.imageshack.us/img690/3566/att00003k.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img638/7203/att00004j.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img541/8905/att00001u.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img10/5541/att00002h.jpg
Step on back to the dark ages. I bet there was not a single cab running in the city when that picture was taken.
Im pretty sure the job will be union, very few jobs in NYC are not.
If the union guys spec a cost that is completely outrageous, and show solidarity in holding that line through all locals, a private group can stop the construction...
...OR MAKE A MINT...
What I'm saying is that NYC, NJ, etc Ironworkers could make it impossible to get union labor in there. If that happens, and they hire non-union to do the work, it could get ugly - fast.
So as long as it's not your ox being gored, you are Ok with it? That about sum it up?
Nope, I'm saying if my Ox is gonna get gored by the government, Muslims don't get automatic protection for their Ox.
All logic-leaps and fallacies aside, that's a VERY slippery slope you're going down. Believe me when I say I'd do anything to see that mosque demolished (if/when it's built), but I'd also rather see that mosque built than live in a country where the Amendments can be twisted and trampled as easily as you just argued.
You already do, they already are.
http://a.imageshack.us/img541/8905/att00001u.jpg
http://a.imageshack.us/img10/5541/att00002h.jpg
Oh this is fu*king spectacular. I mean it's fundamentally uplifting to the very, very highest extent.
And remember that on top of the massive pain inflicted at the site specifically in the name of islam, the Mayor of NY is a Jew. And yet even he could care less?
I really wonder what the fu*k is going on anymore. Worse than a bad movie.
thopkins22
08-04-10, 18:51
Issues of liberty and constitutionality aside, we have a group of people many of whom are motivated by a perceived attack on their religion. In response to their motivation, many here decide that the correct course of action is in fact to declare a war on their religion.
Genius.
There is no right to not be offended.
In response to their motivation, many here decide that the correct course of action is in fact to declare a war on their religion.
Genius.
You rather harshly imply that some here are essentially dopes, yet as the one incapable of seeing the overt forest through the trees there is little pain associated with your insinuations.
Remember, it is not a declaration of war against a religion. But it would be an effective and meaningful measure to keep it in check.
This is something that Europeans are figuring out in a painful way as we speak.
Issues of liberty and constitutionality aside, we have a group of people many of whom are motivated by a perceived attack on their religion. In response to their motivation, many here decide that the correct course of action is in fact to declare a war on their religion.
Genius.
There is no right to not be offended.
I am not a religious man. I was brought up in the Catholic faith as a child. I do not attend church as an adult. I do believe that there is something greater than us out there someplace. That being said, I could care less what religion you are. What I do care about is losing my freedoms because of the beliefs of some primordial sand dwellers. Remember the Germans had camps in the United States before WWII. Seems kind of crazy when you look back on it.
Could any of the LEO's answer this question?:
Is throwing bacon at a Mosque vandalism or simply littering? Is is a hate crime?
Thanks.
It would be a waste of the finest meat known to man. Perhaps a lower grade of pork can be substituted?
The childishness in this thread disturbs me.
The childishness in this thread disturbs me.
I agree. I think I need to stay out of the GD boards it often goes down hill quickly.
Issues of liberty and constitutionality aside, we have a group of people many of whom are motivated by a perceived attack on their religion. In response to their motivation, many here decide that the correct course of action is in fact to declare a war on their religion.
Genius.
There is no right to not be offended.
I understand now. So we DID cause 9-11. Got it.
Perhaps if Chamberlain had given Hitler MORE LAND and been nicer about it we could have avoided that whole pesky world war. Hitler simply felt the Jews were trying to take over the world and he was just protecting Europe.
If we simply placated him by giving him Europe everything would have been fine. After all none of these people are crazy and it's not like they desire nothing less than world domination.
thopkins22
08-04-10, 22:26
I understand now. So we DID cause 9-11. Got it.
Perhaps if Chamberlain had given Hitler MORE LAND and been nicer about it we could have avoided that whole pesky world war. Hitler simply felt the Jews were trying to take over the world and he was just protecting Europe.
If we simply placated him by giving him Europe everything would have been fine. After all none of these people are crazy and it's not like they desire nothing less than world domination.
Because that's what I said.:rolleyes:
I'm not saying we shouldn't kill a lot of them. I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest a bunch more. I'm not saying that you give an inch to "extremists." I'm saying you learn how insurgencies and extremist movements are formed and don't help them do their own recruiting. The reality of our actions is actually kind of moot...the way they're perceived is not.
Total world domination by Muslims will never happen even with all the apathy in the world. Very serious terrorist threats can and do exist, and should be treated as such...not as though they're equivalent to the Germans who were a serious industrial power with a functioning government.
"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." Sun Tzu
Nope, I'm saying if my Ox is gonna get gored by the government, Muslims don't get automatic protection for their Ox.
That's the fallacy of that argument. We know that the NFA is an afront to the Constitution's 2nd Amendment, and your counter to that is, "If I am wronged, they should be too."
Come on man.:bad:
Belmont31R
08-04-10, 23:16
Because that's what I said.:rolleyes:
I'm not saying we shouldn't kill a lot of them. I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest a bunch more. I'm not saying that you give an inch to "extremists." I'm saying you learn how insurgencies and extremist movements are formed and don't help them do their own recruiting. The reality of our actions is actually kind of moot...the way they're perceived is not.
Total world domination by Muslims will never happen even with all the apathy in the world. Very serious terrorist threats can and do exist, and should be treated as such...not as though they're equivalent to the Germans who were a serious industrial power with a functioning government.
"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." Sun Tzu
No it will never happen but Islam will always be at odds with the west.
Just don't be shocked when the cancer that is Islam starts spreading here like it has in Europe, and they start demanding their own set of laws, courts, and neighborhoods in which to do it in. When women here start getting Sharia law'd for getting raped.
This isn't about furthering their religion. They can setup a mosque nearly anywhere else. This is about throwing our own weakness in our faces, and seeing just how much they can get away with. Not ever muslim who means to threaten our way of life has an AK and lives in the mountains. They are here among us, and mean to do it non-violently. Europe is full of muslims, and they are trying to do the same shit here. I couldn't care less what religion anyone is or how they conduct their religion but I can still call a spade a spade. Particularly this exact set of muslims trying to build this mosque. These people running around crying about freedom of religion should be the first ones to get raped, their wives raped, children raped, and so forth just like happens in Europe all the time when these people infest an area. I was in Germany for 4 years, and both us Americans and the Germans had tons of issues with them. Ive traveled all over Europe, and these people along with their religion are a cancer you don't want to take root here. A persons rights end when they interfere with another persons rights, and Islam cannot live square in its entirety in our country. Whats the next act of tolerance we will be forced to endure?
And Im not exactly saying the mosque shouldn't be built but simply saying what this type of shit leads to. Even if all you can do is take baby steps given enough time you'll have walked many miles....the same way liberals have completely changed our country even though they are a small minority. A majority doesn't do you much good if all they do is sit on their asses, and mumble under their breath while the minority is the ones on the streets making all the noise.
Because that's what I said.:rolleyes:
Total world domination by Muslims will never happen even with all the apathy in the world. Very serious terrorist threats can and do exist, and should be treated as such...not as though they're equivalent to the Germans who were a serious industrial power with a functioning government.
Who needs to be a serious industrial power and have a functioning government? Apathy and political correctness will let them slowly take over our government as they have in Europe. One government office at a time. Did the President take his oath of office on the Karon?:eek: So simple a caveman can do it.
im a little surprised this is something we can debate about. being people accustomed to having our Constitutional rights utterly violated, having to fight tooth and nail just to try to hold onto what we have, let alone gain any ground, you'd think we'd have a pretty good grasp on what the Constitution means and is about.
muslims can eat shit and die, but they're just as protected by my Constitution as mine own.
The childishness in this thread disturbs me.
I think the "childishness" as you call it is the "ATTITUDE" that has kept this country going strong. What disturbs me is those people who see nothing wrong with this mosque being built.
rickrock305
08-05-10, 00:17
whew, so much wrong with this post...
Just don't be shocked when the cancer that is Islam starts spreading here like it has in Europe, and they start demanding their own set of laws, courts, and neighborhoods in which to do it in.
Yea, maybe we should ask the American Indians how that worked out.
This isn't about furthering their religion. They can setup a mosque nearly anywhere else. This is about throwing our own weakness in our faces, and seeing just how much they can get away with.
At this point, they win either way. If we deny them their mosque, we've further eroded our rights in the name of combating terrorism and radical Islamists. And if we don't deny them this mosque, then they get a huge symbol of Islam that the radicals across the world will celebrate as a victory over the west.
Not ever muslim who means to threaten our way of life has an AK and lives in the mountains. They are here among us, and mean to do it non-violently. Europe is full of muslims, and they are trying to do the same shit here.
By the same token, not every Muslim is trying to threaten our way of life. Don't become what you hate.
These people running around crying about freedom of religion should be the first ones to get raped, their wives raped, children raped, and so forth
wow, what a nice mature thought that is. are you serious? :rolleyes:
i guess the constitution only applies where you want it to apply?
just like happens in Europe all the time when these people infest an area. I was in Germany for 4 years, and both us Americans and the Germans had tons of issues with them. Ive traveled all over Europe, and these people along with their religion are a cancer you don't want to take root here.
Muslims are already here in very large numbers. No exact numbers, but the estimates range from 2 to 10 million.
Looking at the crime statistics for Dearborn, MI which i hear is pretty much all Muslim at this point, the crime statistics seem to compare to any other small town in the US. In fact rape seems to be lower than other towns i checked.
A persons rights end when they interfere with another persons rights, and Islam cannot live square in its entirety in our country. Whats the next act of tolerance we will be forced to endure?
Yep, that religious tolerance is a real bitch huh? Do you have a problem with Christianity interfering with other persons' rights?
I don't like the idea of this mosque any more than you do. I don't want it there. I think the imam, his sources of funding, his connections, are all a bit shady. I think they should have declared the existing building a landmark in order to block it. But we can't deny them the right to build this mosque just because its a Muslim mosque. We do have religious freedom in this country. We should not compromise our basic founding ideals any more than we already have. When we do that, the terrorists win. When you paint all Muslims as terrorists, or say crazy stuff like children are going to be raped if we allow Muslims here, you only hurt your cause and quite frankly, you sound like the very terrorists we fight against.
im a little surprised this is something we can debate about. being people accustomed to having our Constitutional rights utterly violated, having to fight tooth and nail just to try to hold onto what we have, let alone gain any ground, you'd think we'd have a pretty good grasp on what the Constitution means and is about.
muslims can eat shit and die, but they're just as protected by my Constitution as mine own.
So let a religion that wants you to either believe as they do or die use our Constitution as a protection from us? I think if most people really had an understanding of the Koran they would be singing a different tune.
rickrock305
08-05-10, 00:31
So let a religion that wants you to either believe as they do or die use our Constitution as a protection from us? I think if most people really had an understanding of the Koran they would be singing a different tune.
There are similar phrases in the Bible. For example, Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Here's a bunch more...
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
http://www.evilbible.com/BiblicalIntolerance.htm
http://www.sodahead.com/fun/the-bible-says-kill-non-believers-the-evil-isnt-islam/blog-191235/
Looking at the crime statistics for Dearborn, MI which i hear is pretty much all Muslim at this point, the crime statistics seem to compare to any other small town in the US. In fact rape seems to be lower than other towns i checked.
.
For one thing Muslim women are treated like crap my their husbands. I do not think that a rape statistic from Dearborn tells anything. These people are so backward when it comes to womans rights it is amazing. Wonder how many get beaten and never say a word.
That's the fallacy of that argument. We know that the NFA is an afront to the Constitution's 2nd Amendment, and your counter to that is, "If I am wronged, they should be too."
Come on man.:bad:
Actually what I'm saying is IF the government can regulate that stuff, they can sure as hell do some regulation that is actually in the best interest of the country and it's citizens.
rickrock305
08-05-10, 00:44
For one thing Muslim women are treated like crap my their husbands.
So are many Christian women, or Buddhist women, or... women from any religious background.
I do not think that a rape statistic from Dearborn tells anything.
it tells that in a predominantly Muslim community right here in the United States, the rape statistics are no different than a non-Muslim area. In fact lower than most places i cross referenced.
These people are so backward when it comes to womans rights it is amazing. Wonder how many get beaten and never say a word.
I don't disagree, but you have to realize the percentage of Muslims you are referring to are a VERY small percentage of Muslims overall
Because that's what I said.:rolleyes:
I'm not saying we shouldn't kill a lot of them. I'm not saying we shouldn't arrest a bunch more. I'm not saying that you give an inch to "extremists." I'm saying you learn how insurgencies and extremist movements are formed and don't help them do their own recruiting. The reality of our actions is actually kind of moot...the way they're perceived is not.
Total world domination by Muslims will never happen even with all the apathy in the world. Very serious terrorist threats can and do exist, and should be treated as such...not as though they're equivalent to the Germans who were a serious industrial power with a functioning government.
"It is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles; if you do not know your enemies but do know yourself, you will win one and lose one; if you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle." Sun Tzu
And I'm saying you don't base your policies on what your enemies think of your policies.
And you are correct, total domination will not happen. But at the same time nobody would have dreamed we'd be having this discussion on 9-12-2001.
Bottom line is they hate us and will hate us no matter what regardless of what we do short of mass conversion to Islam. So let's stop worrying about if they hate us.
Belmont31R
08-05-10, 00:44
whew, so much wrong with this post...
Yea, maybe we should ask the American Indians how that worked out.
At this point, they win either way. If we deny them their mosque, we've further eroded our rights in the name of combating terrorism and radical Islamists. And if we don't deny them this mosque, then they get a huge symbol of Islam that the radicals across the world will celebrate as a victory over the west.
By the same token, not every Muslim is trying to threaten our way of life. Don't become what you hate.
wow, what a nice mature thought that is. are you serious? :rolleyes:
i guess the constitution only applies where you want it to apply?
Muslims are already here in very large numbers. No exact numbers, but the estimates range from 2 to 10 million.
Looking at the crime statistics for Dearborn, MI which i hear is pretty much all Muslim at this point, the crime statistics seem to compare to any other small town in the US. In fact rape seems to be lower than other towns i checked.
Yep, that religious tolerance is a real bitch huh? Do you have a problem with Christianity interfering with other persons' rights?
I don't like the idea of this mosque any more than you do. I don't want it there. I think the imam, his sources of funding, his connections, are all a bit shady. I think they should have declared the existing building a landmark in order to block it. But we can't deny them the right to build this mosque just because its a Muslim mosque. We do have religious freedom in this country. We should not compromise our basic founding ideals any more than we already have. When we do that, the terrorists win. When you paint all Muslims as terrorists, or say crazy stuff like children are going to be raped if we allow Muslims here, you only hurt your cause and quite frankly, you sound like the very terrorists we fight against.
Its already happening in Europe, and now they are bringing that disease here more and more.
I also never said Muslims should not be allowed here or they cannot build a mosque. All Im saying is we should not be shocked when the same stuff that happens in Europe starts happening here. Europe is a lot further along than we are because of their proximity to Africa and the ME along with their willingness to import them.
There are tons of quasi muslims out there. There are still prostitutes and whiskey in the ME. I doubt a good percentage of American muslims are following Islam down to the letter. Islam is such a barbaric/unnatural institution many of these countries have to have religious police to make sure the people are conforming. My dad has worked in KSA for years now, and can tell you all you want to know about that.
So no Im not about limiting them by telling them they cannot build a mosque but Im free to have my own opinion about their religion, and what they have done to other western nations. I don't doubt the same thing cannot happen here. Im talking about the REAL muslims not the ones who claim to be but don't follow the tenets of Islam. Just like most Christians don't follow the Bible, either.
There are similar phrases in the Bible. For example, Deuteronomy 17
Sickening. And how many times since the Dark Ages have we acted on that stuff?
When was the last time a Jew or Christian killed a witch because you don't suffer one to live?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23162712
There are similar phrases in the Bible.
The difference is people aren't acting out on them in the same fashion. In the past 30 years, at least, who have almost all major terroristic acts been committed by and for what reason?
I don't disagree, but you have to realize the percentage of Muslims you are referring to are a VERY small percentage of Muslims overall
is it really? Looking at all Muslims everywhere in the world?
There are similar phrases in the Bible. For example, Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
I deleted all the various translations since they are not important.
You do realize what the book of Deuteronomy is? It is the list of societal laws God gave Moses since they, the Children of Israel, were needing to be told every little thing, having lost their ability to govern themselves after being slaves for so long. Some call this the law of carnal (ie earthly) commandments. Also called the "Law of Moses." This being a very small part of it that law. It has nothing to do with God's eternal laws and most Christians believe that the Law of Moses was fulfilled in Christ (most of the important parts of the law theologically speaking being the various sacrifices and stuff) and replaced by the law of the gospel. The Law of Moses pointed to Christ and was supposed to prepare the Jews for Christ's coming and his gospel. (Obviously that failed in the overall sense though many Jews did get it and become followers of Christ).
This is why you do not see Christians running around stoning people nor any of the things in the books of Moses that are similar and part of these societal laws that God gave the Children of Israel since at the time they were not able to govern themselves without help. These laws were meant to get subversives and people that could damage the society out of the society. These laws were fulfilled through Christ and no longer necessary.
As a tangent, our society has similar ideas. Incarceration. Death Penalty. By the mouths of witnesses [read all of Deut 17] people can be declared guilty and we put them away or for some crimes we fry them or poison them.
Rickrock - I know you like to play devil's advocate and try to get a good argument going in most threads I see you involved in but have you ever spent any amount of time around Muslims? I'm not talking about buying a pack of smokes or your lottery ticket at the 7-11 either.
For myself, and plenty of others on this site, I spent more than enough time in the Middle East and can tell you that your views of them and their religion are very naive. Do some research on honor killings or the dancing boys of Afghanistan to gain a little more perspective. Comparing modern Muslims, not the liberal PC bullshit in the media, to modern Christians is not even remotely plausible.
There are similar phrases in the Bible. For example, Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Here's a bunch more...
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
http://www.evilbible.com/BiblicalIntolerance.htm
http://www.sodahead.com/fun/the-bible-says-kill-non-believers-the-evil-isnt-islam/blog-191235/
Alot can be said for the intelligence of the person reading the passages.
Thing is that I do not see Christians in this day and age killing people because they do not believe in the same religion. Needless wars have been fought for thousands of years because of religion. Muslims want to be the only religion on this earth at the cost of killing non believers . I have said before that I am not a religious person,but I see the danger ahead. We are dealing with a people that act as if they are living in biblical times. They are stoning their woman and killing the Infidels. Seems to be a difference in practiced religions to me.
thopkins22
08-05-10, 01:08
The difference is people aren't acting out on them in the same fashion. In the past 30 years, at least, who have almost all major terroristic acts been committed by and for what reason?
Sri Lanka has a startling number of suicide bombings that have no connection whatsoever to Islam. Not more than Islam can claim, but enough that you can't really say "almost all."
It's a tactic used by those with nothing else to use against their enemies more than a Muslim thing. We saw terrorism in Columbia, Ireland, and other places where a group without other military options was being pushed around(rightly or wrongly.)
jklaughrey
08-05-10, 01:09
Rickrock I had no idea you were a big fanboy of the 700 club. you and Pat Rogers should go to the ME and see first hand what most of us here have dealt with and witnessed. Put down your college lit. book and quit watching rehashed MSNBC bullshit.
Seriously, if I need a bible lesson I will go back to Catholic school again.
Sri Lanka has a startling number of suicide bombings that have no connection whatsoever to Islam. Not more than Islam can claim, but enough that you can't really say "almost all."
Sure you can. Sri Lanka is around 20-22 million people. The fighting and stuff is limited to a MUCH smaller subset of that people.
Islam is almost 2 orders of magnitude larger and has a lot more "terrorist" activity coming out of it. That is "almost all"
It's a tactic used by those with nothing else to use against their enemies more than a Muslim thing. We saw terrorism in Columbia, Ireland, and other places where a group without other military options was being pushed around(rightly or wrongly.)
Terrorism is not exclusively a Muslim thing. But right now and for the past many years it has been a Muslim thing more than anything else. The Irish is a very small subset of the acts going on. Columbia as well. Drop in the bucket.
Sri Lanka has a startling number of suicide bombings that have no connection whatsoever to Islam. Not more than Islam can claim, but enough that you can't really say "almost all."
I should have clarified my statement, I meant towards Western countries and was speaking in generalities, although I did use the term major. While I understand your point, Sri Lanka doesn't really pop up on my radar in topics of this nature.
Honestly, while I don't like this situation, I can deal with it.
And I'm not trying to derail the thread, but I'm a hell of a lot more disturbed by the Fed .gov seizing way more than enough land for the Flight 93 memorial. THAT pisses me off. 2200 acres is not necessary for a memorial. No sir. That's twice the size of the NPS park I used to work at (and our site contained a revolutionary war battlefield and town and was plenty big). So, the government will respect first amendment rights but not private property...hmm...
So are many Christian women, or Buddhist women, or... women from any religious background.
it tells that in a predominantly Muslim community right here in the United States, the rape statistics are no different than a non-Muslim area. In fact lower than most places i cross referenced.
I don't disagree, but you have to realize the percentage of Muslims you are referring to are a VERY small percentage of Muslims overall
I wonder how many other religions do clitoral mutilations so that the woman cannot enjoy sex? Think about that one. It is the truth.
rickrock,
I agree with a few other here. Put, down the remote and go to Iraq or Afghanistan and see first hand how these animals behave.
Killing their own family members because they "dishonored" the family by dating a non-muslim (where's all that compassion and tolerance now?)
Throwing acid on womans face because she was "suspected" of adultery. Killing innocent women and children while attacking the "Kafir' and then saying that the Quran justifies it.
I could go on and on. We won't even talk about their hypocrisy of having sex with other men and little boys, while they scream that it's an insult to Islam to have sex when you are not married or to look at another woman. Or disowning and killing your daughter because she is no longer a virgin.
I think this whole Mosque thing is bullshit and though I am all for freedom to include religious freedom it is in poor taste and they should realize that.
There are similar phrases in the Bible. For example, Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Here's a bunch more...
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
http://www.evilbible.com/BiblicalIntolerance.htm
http://www.sodahead.com/fun/the-bible-says-kill-non-believers-the-evil-isnt-islam/blog-191235/
these are all ordnances for pre-messiah israel. but even still- the biggest difference between christianity and islam, in this regard, is that God commanded israel to kill those who broke his covenant. He did not tell israel to take over the earth, converting or beheading all those who would not convert. quite the contrary- God seems to have pretty much no desire to convert anyone, until the new testament. furthermore, israel was commanded, many times, in many ways, and regarding numerous conditions, to absolutely treat all outsiders among them with hospitality.
I think this whole Mosque thing is bullshit and though I am all for freedom to include religious freedom it is in poor taste and they should realize that.
Where the hell is the Westboro Baptist Church when you need them to protest something...
jklaughrey
08-05-10, 01:27
I almost forgot about those Westboro crackpots. I think we as intelligent, passionate Americans would be better served not claiming them as protesting the Mosque being built. Deal with items such as this behind closed doors with handshakes and "grease" to correct pols.
Guess what? I hate those douchebags also. As a matter of fact I prefer not to get involved in religion at all.
Where the hell is the Westboro Baptist Church when you need them to protest something...
Guess what? I hate those douchebags also. As a matter of fact I prefer not to get involved in religion at all.
Oh, I hate them aplenty too, but I'd rather see the WBC occupied protesting at this mosque rather than desecrating a servicemember's funeral...
Oh, I hate them aplenty too, but I'd rather see the WBC occupied protesting at this mosque rather than desecrating a servicemember's funeral...
you will never see those people exerting worthwhile energy. they're the devil's own.
parishioner
08-05-10, 02:34
Let them build their mosque.
You would think the majority "good" muslims would want to prove to the U.S. and the world just how peaceable and loving they are like we are repeatedly told over and over. You know, get in our good graces, try to repair their image, do something recognizable for the greater good. Something other than muslims in New York on tv praising the work of Nidal Malik Hasan in the Fort Hood massacre.
Their move? A mosque next to ground zero.
Good call guys. Keep it up. Now you really have me wanting to embrace you into my accepting arms. I'm feeling the love.
Thanks for showing us exactly who you are.
variablebinary
08-05-10, 03:21
Someone ask this guy how he feels about a mosque near Ground Zero
http://www.beldar.org/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/11/falling_man.jpg
Or this guy
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6223/161/1600/jumper11.jpg
Or these people
http://www.krystalnet.com/people_in_windows.jpg
It's easy to talk that tolerance shit when you have no skin in the game. I lived through it. I was there. People I knew are dead. I was nearly killed myself. My city, my home town was destroyed and 3000 of my friends and neighbors were murdered. I also have friends that have died in the GWOT, and have more friends and relatives fighting in Islamic shitholes right now. I too will deployed in the near future.
The more skin you have in the game, the harder it is to sit back and be indifferent to a shrine of the enemy's dogma being at ground zero. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right
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