View Full Version : Training with airsoft?....please don't ban me
I know I will probabluy get the boot for posting this but I will try anyway...I am serious though.
I have a very difficult time getting to the range but I would still like to train with the M4/6920...I know there is much disdain for airsoft in this forum but I understand that the new gas blowback airsoft guns are pretty awesome in that the bolt carrier cycles, and weight is very close to the real deal. I was thinking of buying one of this to practice at home between range trips. I am not familiar with the airsoft stuff out there so if anyone has any suggestions as to what model/brand to get and aby training tips, it would be much appreciated.
GeorgiaBoy
08-03-10, 21:32
Here's my 2 cents, since I once pondered about this myself.
While there is no airsoft weapon out there can mimic the exact feel of a real gun going off, I think that training with a "high dollar" airsoft M4 that could provide the blowback action and real steel parts and weight can be viable under a certain amount of circumstances such as yours to be able to train.
Its NOT going to feel like the real thing, and the good points is that it can sort of help you with basic muscle memory of the handling of the gun, magazine changing, and perhaps close range shooting, but its not going to be able to train you with distance shooting, recoil control, malfunctions, true magazine weight, or flinch/trigger control.
Sure, its worth the shot, and its better than nothing if you, like you said, aren't able to get to the range often. Basic muscle memory would and weapon maneuvering be the only thing you would benefit out of it though..
Here's my 2 cents, since I once pondered about this myself.
While there is no airsoft weapon out there can mimic the exact feel of a real gun going off, I think that training with a "high dollar" airsoft M4 that could provide the blowback action and real steel parts and weight can be viable under a certain amount of circumstances such as yours to be able to train.
Its NOT going to feel like the real thing, and the good points is that it can sort of help you with basic muscle memory of the handling of the gun, magazine changing, and perhaps close range shooting, but its not going to be able to train you with distance shooting, recoil control, malfunctions, true magazine weight, or flinch/trigger control.
Sure, its worth the shot, and its better than nothing if you, like you said, aren't able to get to the range often. Basic muscle memory would and weapon maneuvering be the only thing you would benefit out of it though..
Couldn't have said it any better. It's not going to be the same, but it's better than nothing.
Gunfighter 9
08-04-10, 05:29
I would stay away from airsoft. I have owned three different, high end airsoft guns, and each of them was a piece of junk. You are every bit as likely to get one that brakes as you are to get a functioning one. Quality control on airsoft guns is abismal. All of the guns I owned had major components break within a month of owning them, and not from extended or rough use. The metals used are of such low quality they wouldn't be used by a reputable soda company to make cans. They literally break under their own weight.
Also, as someone already stated they don't do a good job of replicating things like recoil, muzzle flash, weight, etc. I understand your problem with getting to a range. Here in Lincoln, the only public range to shoot a rifle on is an hour away in Omaha, and it only offers 25 yard lanes.
I have a very difficult time getting to the range but I would still like to train with the M4/6920...I know there is much disdain for airsoft in this forum but I understand that the new gas blowback airsoft guns are pretty awesome in that the bolt carrier cycles, and weight is very close to the real deal. I was thinking of buying one of this to practice at home between range trips. I am not familiar with the airsoft stuff out there so if anyone has any suggestions as to what model/brand to get and aby training tips, it would be much appreciated.
The question I think you have to ask yourself is what is the airsoft gun good at replacing. That is, where can airsoft give you real value in training or practice. To me, an airsoft gun (talking about GBBs here, none of that electric nonsense) is very much like a .22 kit on a rifle or handgun. Very fun to shoot, inexpensive and you feel like a friggin rockstar because it has no recoil and everything is easy. Also like most 22 kits, your mag changes are going to end up being different for whatever reason.
So an airsoft gun is good (IMO) for practicing trigger control. So it's akin then, to dry fire except you get a bit of a bang and it's self-resetting.
Thing is, airsoft is inaccurate by nature, so it's nearly impossible to read a target to figure out what you did wrong. You have to resort to calling your shots, which I'm not a good enough shot to do.
I think airsoft really shines for doing Force on Force training. For other stuff, I think it's more for fun than real practice value.
BUT re-reading your post now I see you're not asking for that. I would only advise to try and avoid anything made in China, but that's nearly impossible now. All the new stuff comes out of China (Hong Kong) now, so there's almost no avoiding it. The GBB M4 market is pretty diverse but there's only one or two models made in Japan and (go figure) they're far and way the most expensive.
This is a halfway decent spot to do some reading about the various gas systems, or ask a question or two: http://www.gasguns.info/forum/index.php
I would stay away from airsoft. I have owned three different, high end airsoft guns, and each of them was a piece of junk. You are every bit as likely to get one that brakes as you are to get a functioning one. Quality control on airsoft guns is abismal. All of the guns I owned had major components break within a month of owning them, and not from extended or rough use. The metals used are of such low quality they wouldn't be used by a reputable soda company to make cans. They literally break under their own weight.
What's your definition of "high end"?
Failure2Stop
08-04-10, 07:14
Airsoft offers some viable training opportunities, but marksmanship is not one of them.
While Airsoft is often used as a derogatory term around here ("Those are Airsoft-grade parts"), I believe that is more reflective of the Airsoft culture than it is the tools themselves and their potential. There are tons of guys out there who spend thousands of dollars on Airsoft gear that serves no functional purpose: basically dressing up like modern battle reenactors. Then they go play around in the woods and want to spend free time talking about weapons they've never actually handled the real version of.
Some of these same "dress up" types make their way into the actual shooting community and come on here asking about bolt-on gadgets that are crappy quality but look just like real military items (and are therefore somehow desirable).
This is the type of Airsofter that I think the serious folk around here hold in contempt. That does not mean, however, that Airsoft weapons can not be used for legitimate purposes. As noted, they have a solid place in a FoF curriculum, especially for groups who do not have access to Sims guns. The same caveats apply to them as any other simulated weapon, of course: the FoF has to be well constructed and not "gamed."
I think airsoft really shines for doing Force on Force training. For other stuff, I think it's more for fun than real practice value.
Airsoft offers some viable training opportunities, but marksmanship is not one of them.
I think these comments sum it up well.
Gunfighter 9
08-04-10, 15:10
Subzero, all three guns were Classic Army brand guns. All three suffered broken parts, mostly cosmetic stuff like sights, and charging handles. (keep in mind these parts are mostly cosmetic on airsoft guns) IMO, airsoft has no place in training, because as someone mentioned earlier, airsoft is mostly made up of teenagers who think real combat is just like Mondern Warfare 2, and over weight wannabees. I too once thought airsoft could serve as a valuable force on force training tool. However, the first time I showed up to a game where everyone was carrying magazines with 200 plus round capacities, and watched people run around like they were playing a live action first person shooter, I realized the error of my way.
Subzero, all three guns were Classic Army brand guns. All three suffered broken parts, mostly cosmetic stuff like sights, and charging handles. (keep in mind these parts are mostly cosmetic on airsoft guns)
There are plenty of Airsoft weapons where the moving parts are fully operational and in no way "cosmetic."
IMO, airsoft has no place in training, because as someone mentioned earlier, airsoft is mostly made up of teenagers who think real combat is just like Mondern Warfare 2, and over weight wannabees.
In my book, this is kind of like condemning all guns just because some yahoos treat them like toys.
Using Airsoft for true FoF is all about the proper setup: you can't just arrive at a weekend battle and expect that guys will have the same objective that you do. To train with them, you need an actual training group: mindset is critical.
Some treat Airsoft like a sport, gaming it like paintball. Others can use the weapons for training purposes, as a lower cost alternative to Simunitions. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
There's a difference between the sport and the weapons though: that was the point I was trying to illustrate in bringing up the teens and weekend games.
Gunfighter 9
08-04-10, 16:09
Byron, I think you misread or misunderstood my point. I am not condeming airsoft. It is fine for its intended purpose, which is for kids and wannabees to pretend to be super cool, uber elite, ninjas. I only dismissed it as a training tool, and largely because it does not adequately replicate the manula of arms associated with the operation of a real firearm. If people want to spend thousands of dollars on toys and shoot each other in the forest with plastic bb's, then more power to them. However, I see no point in gun owners wasting money on airsoft under the impression that they are gaining valuable training.
I read you loud and clear, but I am disagreeing with you. I think Airsoft weapons can be used as a valuable training tool.
You cannot show up at a weekend game with a bunch of teens and expect to get training out of it.
You can, however, use Airsoft weapons with a switched-on training group to achieve legitimate FoF goals. I know this because I have attended legitimate classes where we utilized Airsoft for scenarios, movement, light, etc. Participants in the class were using Airsoft replicas of their carry pistols that they were able to use in their actual holsters.
My Airsoft Glock 19 carries in my real holster and its mags fit into my real mag carriers. It has an identical manual of arms to my real Glock 19, including a reciprocating slide that locks back on empty. It needs to be loaded the same way, and although the mags fit 1 or 2 more rounds than a real mag, that is up to me to work it honestly.
The springs in it are different weights than the real thing (lighter trigger, lighter slide), but the manual of arms is still the same. You can't drill accuracy and split times, but you can certainly work FoF and realistic reloads.
They can be extremely valuable training tools, though most are not cut out for the job.
Yes, I've taken a high end airsoft 1911 and made it an absolute mirror analog for my EDC gun (actually have some Wilson parts on it), and with extensive work I can make it somewhat accurate at 50ft. That's as good as it really gets, but this is more than adequate for FoF training, which is what it's non-recreational use is.
I've done airsoft as a purely recreational exercise and as a dedicated FoF system - it's a great way to shake down gear, and if correct mindset and other people are involved it can be extremely valuable. Screwing around in a backyard with immature gits is probably going to leave bad habits, while actual training with other experienced mature individuals will be very productive for those stuck on a square range mentality when it comes to movement, weapon manipulations, and odd shooting positions. I changed the way I set things up (like weaponlight placement, magazine pouch locations, holster location) because of experienced gained from this, and it has served me well in my travels.
A lot of the same faults can be said of .22lr analogs, which are also lacking in the same recoil impulse, sound, and only recently can they replicate the manual of arms.
Most of the airsoft stuff out there deserves the made in china sticker on it - cool looking, and quality control that is grossly lacking. If you're mechanically inclined, you can make them somewhat reliable, but not that many are good out of the box, and the ones that are usually cost too much.
The BEST of these are the KWA and KSC Glock Replicas - but gas blowback operated guns always suffer from expensive and fragile magazines (can't drop onto hard surfaces, will develop leaks).
I think the pistols are the area where airsoft guns are the least lacking, and most affordable.
Still, they're very imperfect analogs, and while they're very cheap ($12/4000rds + propane) to operate, a realistic assessment of their limitations is definitely required, but if training is tailored and made relevant to this, training with airsoft can be a huge asset.
whiterabbit05
08-04-10, 17:55
It is fine for its intended purpose, which is for kids and wannabees to pretend to be super cool, uber elite, ninjas.
Would you call Colonel Danny R. McKnight a "wannabee?"
http://www.oplionclaws.com/mcknight.php
Along with these other guys?:
http://www.oplionclaws.com/lionclawsvips.php
Yes, there are teenage MW2 mall ninjas running around parks and backyards, but there are also those who take it seriously and to a whole new level of milsim.
Operation Irene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHG8fr4JhXY&feature=related
I only dismissed it as a training tool, and largely because it does not adequately replicate the manual of arms associated with the operation of a real firearm.
There are many gas blow-back replicas that have the same manual of arms including field strip, mag releases, bolt catches, and safeties.
Knowing Xcibes, what he's asking is if he got an airsoft AR, could he get something out of practicing with it at home by himself, not FOF training with someone else.
Xavier, the answer, in my opinion, is no.
Anytime you think you can sneak away without having to watch Hector, meet me out at the range and we can do some work.
As others have said, Airsoft can be a great way to do some fairly efficient FOF training. However, if you just want to run "drills", or other manipulations, just dry fire, or use dummies. These, to me at least, are only a viable training tool is used in FOF scenarios in a controlled training environment.
Gunfighter 9
08-05-10, 08:19
Would you call Colonel Danny R. McKnight a "wannabee?"
http://www.oplionclaws.com/mcknight.php
Along with these other guys?:
http://www.oplionclaws.com/lionclawsvips.php
Yes, there are teenage MW2 mall ninjas running around parks and backyards, but there are also those who take it seriously and to a whole new level of milsim.
Operation Irene:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHG8fr4JhXY&feature=related
There are many gas blow-back replicas that have the same manual of arms including field strip, mag releases, bolt catches, and safeties.
I am not calling Col. Mcknight a wannabe. However, you bring up the extreme exception, not the rule. Most airsoft organizations even with more mature players do not offer realistic training. First, in arisoft you pretty much have to close distance to within at least 100 feet or less to guarantee a hit. In the real world would you honestly get that close to someone who was carrying an assualt rifle? If I knew I was facing someone with that kind of firepower, I would put as much distance between myself and them as possible. Furthermore, very few airsoft guns mimic the control setup on real weapons. They don't require bolts to be operated during a reload, etc. The reality of airsoft is that most of it is done in a manner which will not facilitate realistic training. Even milsim events such as OP: Irene, and LION Claws will not offer much if any training value. Keep in mind that as civilian gun owners we are not likely to face full blown military style operations. Our training should focus on the threats we are likely to encounter, i.e home defense, etc. This simply does not happen in airsoft. I have played airsoft in two different states and it has been the same in both. Just an over glorified, live action video game. Airsofters are Live Action Role Players (LARPs) with toy guns. Just search airsoft on youtube and you will see what I mean. IMO.
All of your points have already been thoroughly addressed.
Most airsoft organizations even with more mature players do not offer realistic training.
Using Airsoft for true FoF is all about the proper setup: you can't just arrive at a weekend battle and expect that guys will have the same objective that you do. To train with them, you need an actual training group: mindset is critical.
You cannot show up at a weekend game with a bunch of teens and expect to get training out of it.
You can, however, use Airsoft weapons with a switched-on training group to achieve legitimate FoF goals. I know this because I have attended legitimate classes where we utilized Airsoft for scenarios, movement, light, etc.
very few airsoft guns mimic the control setup on real weapons. They don't require bolts to be operated during a reload, etc.
There are plenty of Airsoft weapons where the moving parts are fully operational and in no way "cosmetic."
My Airsoft Glock 19 carries in my real holster and its mags fit into my real mag carriers. It has an identical manual of arms to my real Glock 19, including a reciprocating slide that locks back on empty. It needs to be loaded the same way, and although the mags fit 1 or 2 more rounds than a real mag, that is up to me to work it honestly.
The springs in it are different weights than the real thing (lighter trigger, lighter slide), but the manual of arms is still the same. You can't drill accuracy and split times, but you can certainly work FoF and realistic reloads.
The reality of airsoft is that most of it is done in a manner which will not facilitate realistic training. Even milsim events such as OP: Irene, and LION Claws will not offer much if any training value. Keep in mind that as civilian gun owners we are not likely to face full blown military style operations. Our training should focus on the threats we are likely to encounter, i.e home defense, etc. This simply does not happen in airsoft.
You can, however, use Airsoft weapons with a switched-on training group to achieve legitimate FoF goals. I know this because I have attended legitimate classes where we utilized Airsoft for scenarios, movement, light, etc. Participants in the class were using Airsoft replicas of their carry pistols that they were able to use in their actual holsters.
I have played airsoft in two different states and it has been the same in both. Just an over glorified, live action video game. Airsofters are Live Action Role Players (LARPs) with toy guns. Just search airsoft on youtube and you will see what I mean. IMO.
Please read my quotes above and countless attempts to make the point that the sport of Airsoft and the way that people play it has nothing to do with the training potential of Airsoft weapons.
I don't understand your lack of comprehension. I can't state these things again in any clearer of a way.
If you choose to retain your myopic stance on this, that is certainly your prerogative, but you are cheating yourself of legitimate training opportunities.
If you saw a bunch of teenagers running around in the woods with Sims guns, acting like idiots, would you also decree that Sims guns have no place in FoF training?
whiterabbit05
08-05-10, 13:15
Most airsoft organizations even with more mature players do not offer realistic training. First, in arisoft you pretty much have to close distance to within at least 100 feet or less to guarantee a hit.
While the engagement distances are unreal, within 200 feet, airsoft teaches you how to properly use cover, maneuver, and how to use your surroundings for concealment.
It also teaches you to perform magazine changes under stress. Changing magazines becomes totally different when you are receiving return fire (in some cases surrounded by smoke bombs and pyro) and distracted with the thought of being rushed/overrun. Muscle memory, as previously mentioned, is the most important and useful skill you can take away from airsoft in my opinion.
The reality of airsoft is that most of it is done in a manner which will not facilitate realistic training. Our training should focus on the threats we are likely to encounter, i.e home defense, etc. This simply does not happen in airsoft.
Examples of closer to real world training:
1. There are plenty of indoor CQB facilities that will teach you room clearing procedures and the use of lights.
2. Plenty of IPSC and IPDA shooters use replica airsoft pistols to practice their draws, getting on target, and magazine changes.
Airsofters are Live Action Role Players (LARPs) with toy guns. Just search airsoft on youtube and you will see what I mean. IMO.
Citing random youtube videos isn't a good way of making a point.
LARP is more science fiction and fantasy, airsoft is more milsim using real world replicas and tactics, apples and oranges.
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I believe all the points in this discussion have been covered, if you still want to discredit airsoft as a training tool, so be it.
Gunfighter 9
08-05-10, 13:44
I will stipulate the the GBB pistols do a fair job of simulating the manual of arms required to operate a pistol. However, they have very little recoil, no muzzle flash, and are not exactly accurate even at close range. As was stated earlier how do you expect to train on marksmanship with a weapon system that is inaccurate even from a bench rest? I will also stipulate that force on force training with GBB pistols could give some benefit, but only under the supervision of an experienced training staff, and that means paying to go somewhere and train, i.e. Thunder Ranch, Magpul, etc. If you're going to pay that kind of money I would hope they have something better for the purpose of force on force training, i.e. simunitions.
My views on airsoft, as myopic as they are, come from several years of attempting to utilize airsoft to augment my training for real steel weapons. In all that time I never found anyway to make it worth the cost and effort, and this is primarily because those who get into airsoft aren't interested in training for real life. They simply want to dress up like some character off of Modern Warfare and play war. Furthermore the electric airsoft guns offer no usable benefit for real steel. The trigger pull is not the same, it has no recoil, no muzzle flash, and most of the controls with the exception of the trigger and safety are purely cosmetic. As for learning use of proper cover, what is the need when at much beyond 100 feet you can simply dodge incoming bb's.
Furthermore the electric airsoft guns offer no usable benefit for real steel. The trigger pull is not the same, it has no recoil, no muzzle flash, and most of the controls with the exception of the trigger and safety are purely cosmetic.
The only person who has brought this stuff up is YOU. The OP asked about gas blow back guns for training purposes, and you've managed to muck up this thread with ARFCOM-style drivel about airsofters. Hopefully the OP managed to get something out of this before you pooped all over the thread.
Will a mod please close this thread already?
The thread has taken a turn that is decidedly not helpful....
Failure2Stop
08-05-10, 14:01
Proper training under the supervision of an experienced and knowledgeable instructor is requisite for any Force on Force exercise.
Dressing up in cammies and running around shooting at other virgins with plastic guns launching plastic BBs is not Force on Force training, it's a hobby.
Shooting 3-gun with $5000 guns launching the best projectiles known to man is a hobby. It won't teach you to fight, it isn't Force on Force training, though it will encourage participants to be more accurate- faster.
What one uses to train to fight, or conduct Force on Force, is of far less importance than the quality of the instructor and the structure of the class. A day in a shed with cap-guns and a CAG CQB instructor will impart more skill than a week in a multi-million dollar shoothouse with cutting edge weapons if the instructor is a dipshit.
Like I said earlier, there are things that airsoft guns do very well, and things they do not: knowing where the line is drawn is a citical piece of getting something out of the equipment. There is no safe way to perfectly simulate a gunfight, instuctors must identify and hone base skill sets and then build upon that foundation. The same thing applies to training weapons; there is nothing in the world that feels like shooting your gun, except. . .shooting your gun. Deal with it and train accordingly.
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