View Full Version : Time to apolgize to Japan?!
We should, when they apologize for starting the f-ing war, or apologize to China for the rape camps they set up:
"An estimated one hundred thousand to four hundred thousand female sex slaves were forced to deliver sexual services to Japanese soldiers, both before and during World War II. They have been variously called "comfort women," "military sex slaves," "MSS," "military comfort women," and -- in Japanese -- "jugun ianfu." This program was approved by the Imperial Conference, which was composed of the emperor, representatives from the armed forces and the main Cabinet ministers. The conference was formed after Japan invaded Manchuria in 1937."
Etc, etc. I think we should also apologize for then making them an economic super power and covering all their defense needs since that time....sarcasm intended...
Atomic Apology? U.S. to Send First Delegation to Hiroshima A-Bomb Memorial
Published August 04, 2010
Associated Press
TOKYO
TOKYO (AP) — Survivors of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are welcoming a decision by the United States to send its first ever delegation to a ceremony marking the anniversary of the attacks, but are asking for something they aren't likely to get — an apology.
Cont:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2...ial/?test=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/08/04/atomic-apology-send-delegation-hiroshima-bomb-memorial/?test=latestnews)
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
The victors write the history books, yada yada, no white hats implied, but no apology warranted, that's for damn sure. :stop:
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
Doesn't seem particularly relevant to me (as far as the decision to use the bomb goes).
John_Wayne777
08-04-10, 17:37
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
Yes...we blockaded a hostile, belligerent power who was misbehaving. That doesn't exactly make us equals in that little tiff.
Cascades236
08-04-10, 17:39
The victors write the history books, yada yada, no white hats implied, but no apology warranted, that's for damn sure. :stop:
I'm with you, should have fought harder Japan.
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
Thus preventing them from waging effective war on other countries. We didn't just wake up one day and decide to screw with Japan. They started their war of aggression in 1933.
If they were not waging war in China, Manchuria, etc. we'd have continued to sell them steel.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/HydrogenBomb-1.jpg
Yes...we blockaded a hostile, belligerent power who was misbehaving. That doesn't exactly make us equals in that little tiff.
Thank you. And it was Japan who walked out on the League of Nations and the path to peaceful resolution.
And I'm not even gonna hold my breath waiting for an apology. I'd be happy if they'd simply acknowledge Nanking, Pearl Harbor and Unit 731.
I can't tell you the number of people I have met who grew up in Japan with no knowledge of any of it. They think China and Manchuria forced them into war in the 1930s and we simply joined in without cause and then dropped atom bombs on them.
Army Chief
08-04-10, 17:56
Never fear, boys -- I've got this one all covered ...
Dear Japan,
We're sorry that you were idiots 70 years ago, but you're responded nicely to correction. Keep up the good work!
Your friend,
The U.S.A.
Honestly, I'm not sure how the State Department has made it this long without me. ;)
AC
Thus preventing them from waging effective war on other countries. We didn't just wake up one day and decide to screw with Japan. They started their war of aggression in 1933.
If they were not waging war in China, Manchuria, etc. we'd have continued to sell them steel.
1931 actually. Many consider the official start of WWII Sept 1, 1939 with the German invasion of Poland but I always think of Sept 18, 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria.
Belmont31R
08-04-10, 17:58
Thank you. And it was Japan who walked out on the League of Nations and the path to peaceful resolution.
And I'm not even gonna hold my breath waiting for an apology. I'd be happy if they'd simply acknowledge Nanking, Pearl Harbor and Unit 731.
I can't tell you the number of people I have met who grew up in Japan with no knowledge of any of it. They think China and Manchuria forced them into war in the 1930s and we simply joined in without cause and then dropped atom bombs on them.
They are still in denial about it. Just like in Germany WW2 is kept hush hush.
Belmont31R
08-04-10, 18:05
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
Because they were barbarians, and treated people in a sub-human nature.
The things they did to people easily ranks up there are some of the most disgusting and horrible acts ever committed by man. It wasn't just isolated incidents either. This behavior came from the top down, and was standard procedure. Things like shoving bamboo shoots into women via their vaginas, mass murder of kids (and many others), gang raping woman of ALL ages from little kids to grandmas, beheading contests, etc. There is a lot more they did if you care to read up on it including the mass human torture and testing by 731.
If you want to draw some moral equivalency to Japan and US during the 30's and 40's your understanding of history is sorely lacking. We put them into camps during the war where they were treated fairly good. The Japanese created rape camps.
IMO they got off easy. Too bad we didn't have enough nukes at the time to wipe out many more of their cities. Id rather have been a Jew in Germany than a Chinese woman in Nanking or American POW taken to 731.
Id rather have been a Jew in Germany than a Chinese woman in Nanking or American POW taken to 731.
Now that's some perspective right there. Well said.
We enforced a naval blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor effectively cutting off their oil supply. We weren't wearing a white hat and neither were they.
What came first, the Japanese war on China or the naval blockade?
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did. People wear blinders when it comes to their team, but right is right, wrong is wrong. The targeting of a civilian population is in the wrong. Killing woman and children is... wrong. So to target a group of woman and children and to blow them to shit is wrong. It was wrong in 1945, and still is wrong in 2010.
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did. People wear blinders when it comes to their team, but right is right, wrong is wrong. The targeting of a civilian population is in the wrong. Killing woman and children is... wrong. So to target a group of woman and children and to blow them to shit is wrong. It was wrong in 1945, and still is wrong in 2010.
The understanding of "total war" was different then than it is now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/HydrogenBomb-1.jpg
Never fear, boys -- I've got this one all covered ...
Dear Japan,
We're sorry that you were idiots 70 years ago, but you're responded nicely to correction. Keep up the good work!
Your friend,
The U.S.A.
Honestly, I'm not sure how the State Department has made it this long without me. ;)
AC
You guys rock.
SeriousStudent
08-04-10, 19:17
........
Honestly, I'm not sure how the State Department has made it this long without me. ;)
AC
Fly aircraft, plan careers, resolve diplomatic issues - is there anything this man can't do??
:D
pilotguyo540
08-04-10, 19:21
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did. People wear blinders when it comes to their team, but right is right, wrong is wrong. The targeting of a civilian population is in the wrong. Killing woman and children is... wrong. So to target a group of woman and children and to blow them to shit is wrong. It was wrong in 1945, and still is wrong in 2010.
One million allied lives being put into harms way is the difference. Saddam was just a dick.
They are still in denial about it. Just like in Germany WW2 is kept hush hush.
We've almost done the same thing with Vietnam. When I was in high school 17 years ago my US history textbook had 3/4 of a page and a picture of a bridge in Hue to cover the Vietnam War. I had to learn everything about it on my own and from my father and uncles.
Oh yeah, and Japan can eat a dick. They can have an apology when they pay reparations to our POWs that they used for slave labor. Wait, that's not gonna happen thanks to Clinton. So Japan can **** off. But I'm sure Barry will give them the apology they want.
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did. People wear blinders when it comes to their team, but right is right, wrong is wrong. The targeting of a civilian population is in the wrong. Killing woman and children is... wrong. So to target a group of woman and children and to blow them to shit is wrong. It was wrong in 1945, and still is wrong in 2010.
allowing your countrymen to die when there's something you can do to stop it right now is wrong. i'd kill a thousand foreign babies to keep one american baby from becoming fatherless. we didn't start that war. the hundreds of thousands of American dead aren't enough justification for you? like somebody else said, it's just a shame we didn't have more bombs.
jklaughrey
08-04-10, 19:28
Do you post just to start arguments? By many of the posts I have read you seem to stir the pot then argue your point from an untenable position. That said my take on warfare is the same with any conflict. Least amount of force needed to resolve the issue. In 1945, it was either a prolonged invasion costing many, many more American lives and even more Japanese military and civilian lives. Or drop a few well placed A Bombs on viable military targets which killed a small civilian populace. Imagine if the role was reversed, a foreign power invading our country. Everyone would fight tooth and nail to defend. Civilians would no longer be non-combatants, but viable opponents. Add in the fact that Japanese culture is taught no surrender and clings to that mentality. You have a good old fashioned "Sherman's March" on you hands to try to win the conflict.
I'm going to get shit for it,
Bed, you made...
but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds?
Yes. That you would even ask is sad. Study your history a tad more perhaps.
Cagemonkey
08-04-10, 19:32
No Western nation has engaged in total war since WWII. Gen. Sherman said it best when he said "War is Hell". The US always gets shit for the A Bomb on Japan. The truth is the firing bombing of Japanese cities killed more people than the A Bombs. The Allies fire bombed Germany. British Air Marshall Harris and Churchill had no regrets. People forget that the Japanese brought total war upon themselves by practicing the Bushido Warrior code. Look at US Marine casualties in Tarawa, Peleiu and Iwo Jima. A invasion of Japan would have resulted in nearly a million American and Japanese casualties. As our WWII combat vets continue to succumb to old age, revisionist historians and propagandists take their place. Through out history, Warfare has been a cruel and merciless human sport.
They are still in denial about it. Just like in Germany WW2 is kept hush hush.
That isn't accurate. Ask a random stranger on the street of Tokyo is they ever heard of, 'Nan King' and they will tell you no. Ask any stranger on the street of Berlin and ask them if they ever heard of Auschwitz and you'll get a different answer.
Japan is in total denial. Germany is in total, 'guilt all the kids' mode.
John_Wayne777
08-04-10, 19:46
Thank you. And it was Japan who walked out on the League of Nations and the path to peaceful resolution.
And I'm not even gonna hold my breath waiting for an apology. I'd be happy if they'd simply acknowledge Nanking, Pearl Harbor and Unit 731.
I can't tell you the number of people I have met who grew up in Japan with no knowledge of any of it. They think China and Manchuria forced them into war in the 1930s and we simply joined in without cause and then dropped atom bombs on them.
Japan has never really done a good job as a society of acknowledging what they did in the early 20th century. Worse, lots of academics have sprung up here and in Japan that blame use of the atom bomb on racism and who go to great lengths to detail war crimes perpetrated, they claim, against the Japanese...while completely ignoring the behavior of Japanese occupation forces.
In the Phillipenes there are survivors who witnessed Japanese soldiers throwing small children into the air and catching them with a bayonet for giggles. The Japanese in WWII were some sick bastards. Their culture was seriously messed up, and their government was under the control of fanatic militarists bent on domination of the Pacific at a minimum. Attempts at historical revisionism are sickening.
We nuked the Japanese because at the time leaders were faced with the alternative of a wholesale invasion of the Japanese homeland. Given the massive casualties suffered taking chunks of dirt like Okinawa and Iwo Jima, the projected US casualties for such an invasion were staggering. When the Japanese have made you bleed the ground red to take every inch of land and when they're literally flying planes into ships in suicide attacks it would be rather odd to assert that an invasion of their homeland would result in anything other than bloodshed on a horrific scale.
Compared to that, dropping a couple of nukes that makes them realize they will be utterly destroyed if they don't knock off the stupid doesn't seem like such a bad option.
...and even after a couple of nukes a bunch of fanatics tried to stage a coup to prevent surrender.
They don't deserve an apology for being bombed. If they insist on one, we should politely point to the fact that we rebuilt their society and have protected them from foreign enemies since they finally had sense to surrender, and that perhaps they should just say "thank you" and shutup.
allowing your countrymen to die when there's something you can do to stop it right now is wrong. i'd kill a thousand foreign babies to keep one american baby from becoming fatherless. we didn't start that war. the hundreds of thousands of American dead aren't enough justification for you? like somebody else said, it's just a shame we didn't have more bombs.
Not to mention, aside from the American lives saved, a hell of a lot of Japanese would have died in an invasion had the bomb not been dropped.
Cagemonkey
08-04-10, 19:50
Japan got off relatively lightly for their War Crimes. Japan never apologized to China for its atrocities. I had a Japanese girl friend when I was stationed in Oki. She had no clue about Pearl Harbor etc.
CENTCOM_Survivor
08-04-10, 20:01
I'm sure Japan is somewhere on Obama's list of nations to which we should apologize, for something. He'll get around to it at some point.:rolleyes:
Yeah, he will probably do it from the USS Arizona memorial too. Nothing would surprise me.
John_Wayne777
08-04-10, 20:08
Japan got off relatively lightly for their War Crimes. Japan never apologized to China for its atrocities. I had a Japanese girl friend when I was stationed in Oki. She had no clue about Pearl Harbor etc.
Actually Japan has offered a number of official public apologies for bad acts against China. Every now and then...generally when trade negotiations are going on...the Chinese government opens up their box of indignance at Japanese war crimes and demands an apology and trade concessions.
International politics.
China has their own denial thing going on about their own history...only they just shoot people who bring up inconvenient facts about it. Mao killed more Chinese than the Japanese ever dreamed about killing.
Belmont31R
08-04-10, 20:18
That isn't accurate. Ask a random stranger on the street of Tokyo is they ever heard of, 'Nan King' and they will tell you no. Ask any stranger on the street of Berlin and ask them if they ever heard of Auschwitz and you'll get a different answer.
Japan is in total denial. Germany is in total, 'guilt all the kids' mode.
Ask a German if they can get a copy of Mein Kampf.
A guy in my unit there ordered a copy, and he happened to live on the economy. He had to go to the Polizei station, and explain why he ordered that book. What they told him was people could only have it for educational purposes, and people could not have it just to have it.
Different than Japan, yes, but they don't exactly want to talk about WW2 at all.
jklaughrey
08-04-10, 20:20
Ahhh Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin...Some of the world's infamous mass murderer's. Still not quite ranking up there with Hitler I suppose. More like 2nd tier.
arizonaranchman
08-04-10, 20:22
The Japs got exactly what they deserved, they brought it on and we gave it to them. When you crush their spirit utterly and completely is when they surrender and you win, no peace treaties, etc - total victory. Otherwise you get this 10+ years of endless warfare that we see today where it's an agonizing war of attrition and the politicians make it a circus so that even the clearly superior side can't win decisively.
They surrendered within 3 days once we hit them. Not in a million years and a million or more American boys' lives would they have done so otherwise.
They were begging us to stop within 72 hours...
Cagemonkey
08-04-10, 20:23
Actually Japan has offered a number of official public apologies for bad acts against China. Every now and then...generally when trade negotiations are going on...the Chinese government opens up their box of indignance at Japanese war crimes and demands an apology and trade concessions.
International politics.
China has their own denial thing going on about their own history...only they just shoot people who bring up inconvenient facts about it. Mao killed more Chinese than the Japanese ever dreamed about killing.Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. Communism has killed more people than the Nazi's and Japanese ever dreamed of. Unfortunately theirs too many Leftist sympathizers who hide the truth.
Ahhh Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin...Some of the world's infamous mass murderer's. Still not quite ranking up there with Hitler I suppose. More like 2nd tier.
Nope. Mao and Stalin both killed more than Hitler. Stalin did most of it directly, Mao operated mostly in indirect effects but there's a body count just the same.
Cagemonkey
08-04-10, 20:29
Ahhh Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin...Some of the world's infamous mass murderer's. Still not quite ranking up there with Hitler I suppose. More like 2nd tier.
I think Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro etc. got Hitler beat. The Hammer & Sickle should be as despised as the Swastika.
I think Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Castro etc. got Hitler beat.
Lenin, no. After-effects of Lenin (Stalin), yes.
Mao, yes.
Ho Ch Minh, not really, no.
Pol Pot, no. He'd wouldn't have any population to rule over if he killed as many as Hitler.
Castro, also no.
Cagemonkey
08-04-10, 20:39
Lenin, no. After-effects of Lenin (Stalin), yes.
Mao, yes.
Ho Ch Minh, not really, no.
Pol Pot, no. He'd wouldn't have any population to rule over if he killed as many as Hitler.
Castro, also no.
Individually your right. I just wanted to name Communists who killed in significant numbers, wether direct or indirect. My point is that communist killings exceeded that of the Nazis.
Sure we should apologize. let me start.
I am sorry that you started a war you couldn't finish.
I am sorry you were batshit insane and forced our hand.
I am sorry we were not willing to sacrifice 1 Million+ more of our soldiers in a protracted Ground war..
Anyone on here who knows me, knows that I am not a warmonger. But if you are going to start shit don't whine when we finish it.
GermanSynergy
08-04-10, 20:44
WW2 was a total war, and Japan sealed their fate when they bombed Pearl Harbor and chose to mistreat/enslave/murder captured Allied servicemembers, as well as the civilian population of the Pacific rim. Think of Fat Man & Little Boy as karmic justice being doled out on a Biblical scale to a nation that deserved no better.
Japan should thank us we didn't do worse, and that we built them (and W.Germany) up in the 1950's.
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did. People wear blinders when it comes to their team, but right is right, wrong is wrong. The targeting of a civilian population is in the wrong. Killing woman and children is... wrong. So to target a group of woman and children and to blow them to shit is wrong. It was wrong in 1945, and still is wrong in 2010.
The thing the apologists never mention is that Japan could have surrendered after Hiroshima. They refused and our response was to bomb Nagasaki. Perhaps the emperor thought we only had one bomb, and we were bluffing about having more. Bad call on his part.
But you can see that he was willing to let another couple hundred thousand of his innocent civilians die just to make sure we had the backup. Has Japan apologized to their own citizens for not surrendering after the first bomb?
jklaughrey
08-04-10, 21:00
Either way, their kind need to be planted in the ground quickly in any case. Besides my comment was with a hint of sarcasm for those that don't know my humor. Cheers, and God save the USA! PS Stalin was a killer...but he did so with no nonsense instead of being a fanatic.
jklaughrey
08-04-10, 21:11
Speaking of Imperial Japan, some of them were still fighting after the war. My priest served during Korea on Guam and there were still Jap soldiers hiding there and even tried to attack servicemen , Also didn't like the last Jap soldier surrender like in the late 80's or early 90's? Talk about your committed soldier right there. Yeah, A bomb was only realistic way to decisive victory.
Do you post just to start arguments? By many of the posts I have read you seem to stir the pot then argue your point from an untenable position. That said my take on warfare is the same with any conflict. Least amount of force needed to resolve the issue. In 1945, it was either a prolonged invasion costing many, many more American lives and even more Japanese military and civilian lives. Or drop a few well placed A Bombs on viable military targets which killed a small civilian populace. Imagine if the role was reversed, a foreign power invading our country. Everyone would fight tooth and nail to defend. Civilians would no longer be non-combatants, but viable opponents. Add in the fact that Japanese culture is taught no surrender and clings to that mentality. You have a good old fashioned "Sherman's March" on you hands to try to win the conflict.
No I don't always stir the pot, so apparently you only read my posts when you disagree with me, and what's the point of a discussion when every viewpoint is the same.
I just don't take a view to be popular or perceived as hardcore. so I'm not going to justify my actions and demonize it when some one else does the same thing just because they're a different person. It's called accountability. Kind of like the difference between a rich person and a poor person stealing a loaf of bread. In my ****ed up world views it's the same crime, not a lesser of a crime because the poor guy is poor so I should view him differently than the person of privilege.
If you can justify the killing of civilians than fine that's you're view of morality. In my world view collateral damage happens, but it's not something you seek out and exploit.
And as a matter of fact one of my relatives had a big influence during the war. Hell he was the General the Japanese Emperor surrendered to, and he didn't feel the bombs where necessary, he did favor blowing the hell out of China in the Korea war.
jklaughrey
08-04-10, 21:29
Good job and congrats for just being you. No fight here enjoy, and try the veal!
I visited both Hiroshima and Nagasaki last year. We went there mainly to visit the museums (actually just to ride the trains was the main goal, but we chose Nagasaki and Hiroshima as end goals to see the museums).
It was interesting. They try and put you (generic you, the visitor, not necessarily Americans) on a guilt trip for nuclear weapons existing and want you to emotionally come out against them and sign nuclear disarmament petitions and wave the banners of "peace". I explained to my son (he was 6 then) that Japan did a lot of bad things back then including attack America and that the Atomic bombs were how the war ended. I made no excuses. Yes, atomic weapons suck. Any war and any weapons suck. But now that they exist, you cannot put that genie back in the bottle. And on the "peacenik" front that they seem to push there, I explained that sometimes war is necessary because bad people exist in the world. No sane person wants war. But only sane people prepare for it and when it happens prosecute it to win and bring peace.
It was interesting, and sobering, to see what happened and to visit these places in person. It was also interesting to see what ninnies the world creates who think that when someone declares war on you, you can just walk away and say "No"
(pic of us in Hiroshima)
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30303486&l=6879dea070&id=1408275395
Chad
(wife does not make excuses for Japan's behavior early 1900s through WW2 and does not fault the US for the atomic bombs. Wife was born and raised in Japan, as were both her parents, but her grandparents [all 4 as I understand it] came from Korea to Japan and she had a Korean passport before she became an American, though she does not speak Korean and had never been there before we went after we got married. She considers herself as coming from Japan)
Every time I think our current executive branch can get any worse...
Why am I surprised - these folks will stop at nothing to rewrite history.
1931 actually. Many consider the official start of WWII Sept 1, 1939 with the German invasion of Poland but I always think of Sept 18, 1931 when Japan invaded Manchuria.
You are very correct. I flubbed my dates.
They are still in denial about it. Just like in Germany WW2 is kept hush hush.
Actually most of the Germans I know who were raised in post war Germany were made very aware of what happened during the war and who was to blame. I'd almost say they are more knowledgeable about German atrocities than most American students who aren't Jewish.
Japan has never really done a good job as a society of acknowledging what they did in the early 20th century. Worse, lots of academics have sprung up here and in Japan that blame use of the atom bomb on racism and who go to great lengths to detail war crimes perpetrated, they claim, against the Japanese...while completely ignoring the behavior of Japanese occupation forces.
In the Phillipenes there are survivors who witnessed Japanese soldiers throwing small children into the air and catching them with a bayonet for giggles. The Japanese in WWII were some sick bastards. Their culture was seriously messed up, and their government was under the control of fanatic militarists bent on domination of the Pacific at a minimum. Attempts at historical revisionism are sickening.
We nuked the Japanese because at the time leaders were faced with the alternative of a wholesale invasion of the Japanese homeland. Given the massive casualties suffered taking chunks of dirt like Okinawa and Iwo Jima, the projected US casualties for such an invasion were staggering. When the Japanese have made you bleed the ground red to take every inch of land and when they're literally flying planes into ships in suicide attacks it would be rather odd to assert that an invasion of their homeland would result in anything other than bloodshed on a horrific scale.
Compared to that, dropping a couple of nukes that makes them realize they will be utterly destroyed if they don't knock off the stupid doesn't seem like such a bad option.
...and even after a couple of nukes a bunch of fanatics tried to stage a coup to prevent surrender.
They don't deserve an apology for being bombed. If they insist on one, we should politely point to the fact that we rebuilt their society and have protected them from foreign enemies since they finally had sense to surrender, and that perhaps they should just say "thank you" and shutup.
Part of that IS our fault.
We went out of our way not to shame them. We were even culpable for things like Unit 731.
While we were willing to put nearly any member of the "nazi party" on trial in Nuremburg (even those who simply delivered the mail) we only took the "big names" to task in Japan.
Even worse we cut deals like giving those in charge of Unit 731 immunity in exchange for their data. Imagine if we gave the same deal to Mengele or some other SS doctor. Many Japanese war criminals even went on to government positions in post war Japan. Many still regarded as heroes to this day.
We even helped perpetuate the absurd notion that the Emporer was some kind of innocent bystander during the whole conflict.
Japan went far out of their way to deserve Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Actually most of the Germans I know who were raised in post war Germany were made very aware of what happened during the war and who was to blame. I'd almost say they are more knowledgeable about German atrocities than most American students who aren't Jewish.
Yes. I lived 50 miles outside Munich 1991-1993 while I worked for a computer company in Munich. I was also involved with a boy scout group at church (German congregation of the LDS church) and was put in charge of the young men (we only had 2 of the age for boy scouts). They let me know in no uncertain terms that they equated "patriotism" with Nazis and what the Nazis did. To them it was one and the same. The post war German nation is the Nation of Guilt -- even for those kids born in the late 70s and early 80s and whose parents were born after the war as well and had nothing to do with it.
Cascades236
08-05-10, 05:31
Does this apology come with cheese, peanut butter, hunting/fishing rights and a casino?
Army Chief
08-05-10, 05:46
The post war German nation is the Nation of Guilt -- even for those kids born in the late 70s and early 80s and whose parents were born after the war as well and had nothing to do with it.
Well stated. I always found it interesting that the German people today shun nationalism in any context, save for sports.
They don't sing their national anthem, don't really display their flag, and can't effectively discuss the problems related to non-Germans (Turks and Russians) putting such a heavy burden on their social welfare system, because any such actitivities lead to whispers of Naziism.
Up until very recently, the Bundeswehr didn't even have a decoration to award for bravery for deserving soldiers in places like Afghanistan. They have done a typically-thorough job of neutering all references to national strength, and effectively erased any memory of the military accomplishments of the past. It isn't that the Germans don't know about their history, but rather that they have been taught that there is only one valid context in which to consider it: one of deep shame.
Oddly enough, the only time you will ever see a rank-and-file German going out of his way to make an overt display of patriotism is during the FIFA World Cup ... then, the country is a veritable sea of black, red and gold.
AC
Nope. Mao and Stalin both killed more than Hitler. Stalin did most of it directly, Mao operated mostly in indirect effects but there's a body count just the same.
Statistically speaking, you are always in greatest danger from being murdered by your own government, then by any invading army or criminal. No four words in all of human history lead to the death of more people then "it can't happen here."
I'm sorry we didn't drop a few on the Soviet Union when we had the chance.
Um, was that not the apology you were looking for?
The Japanese still don't realize the true nature of their idiocy. They think we have some sort of belligerent hatred of their race. The truth is prior to Pearl Harbor no nation was better liked by us. We opened them up to trade, helped them industrialize, trained their military, educated their privileged and took their industrious immigrants. After they bombed the crap out of Pearl Harbor and the Philippines we didn't know what to think, it major league screwed with the national psyche. Betrayal by any other word.
Them bombing us over our sanctions against their lunacy is the moral equivalent of shooting an RPG into an ice cream shop who refuses to sell to you because you beat up neighborhood kids for their lunch money.
Here's the circle-jerk Japanese methodology for WWII...
-Need raw materials and oil in case America attacks us, because we have such limited resources.
-Will get raw materials and oil from countries other than America, because they won't sell if we're shooting at them.
-Getting these raw materials and oil initially requires American raw materials and oil.
-Oh crap, the Americans just embargoed us.
-To prevent a disastrous war with America in which we have limited supplies and thus will lose, we will attack them right now when we have limited supplies... and hope for the best?
These dummies created the proverbial perpetual-motion-machine of self fulfilling prophecies, against people who liked them.
jklaughrey
08-05-10, 22:55
Armakraut, nice post...love your style!
Thanks.
You never really hear the Japanese seriously debate any of this stuff, because it literally sounds as stupid as "you paid me too much money, I had never had that much money, so I blew it all, got in debt and it's all your fault!"
jklaughrey
08-05-10, 22:59
Stop now, please! I just spit up my Earl Grey laughing!
Thanks.
You never really hear the Japanese seriously debate any of this stuff, because it literally sounds as stupid as "you paid me too much money, I had never had that much money, so I blew it all, got in debt and it's all your fault!"
OFF Topic but that sounds Like Our welfare Program
Don't ever mention to a liberal that we have comparatively rich poor people.
Belmont31R
08-05-10, 23:38
Back when we actually declared wars on people it was considered a huge insult they attacked us before a formal declaration of war was delivered.
And if I see one more fatty with a cart filled with crap food pull out a "lone star card" I think Ill mention it to them there is a sale on veggies....you know just to see the look on their face....:cool:
The thing the apologists never mention is that Japan could have surrendered after Hiroshima. They refused and our response was to bomb Nagasaki. Perhaps the emperor thought we only had one bomb, and we were bluffing about having more. Bad call on his part.
But you can see that he was willing to let another couple hundred thousand of his innocent civilians die just to make sure we had the backup. Has Japan apologized to their own citizens for not surrendering after the first bomb?
Here is just one short article showing the error in our collective memory of the events leading up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Also, some (not you) mentioned the League of Nations. To Hell with the League of Nations (precursor of the U.N.).
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/20/043.html - though I disagree with the philosophy of this guy
BTW, a naval blockade *is* an act of war. Unlike some I can fully accept errors in judgement of my nation and still love it as much as Life itself.
From what I learned in history both Japan and Germany sued for peace (whether it was total surrender or a cessation of military action I do not recall at present but it could be found witin 1/2 hour with a websearch) prior to the UN-brokered peace (which is appalling to me.
From what I learned in history both Japan and Germany sued for peace (whether it was total surrender or a cessation of military action I do not recall at present but it could be found witin 1/2 hour with a websearch) prior to the UN-brokered peace (which is appalling to me.
Uhh, I think you need to go back to history lessons. There was no UN to broker peace back then.
Uhh, I think you need to go back to history lessons. There was no UN to brokered peace back then.
Actually, that is exactly what's being stated today. It's appalling.
Actually, that is exactly what's being stated today. It's appalling.
What is appalling? The fact that there was no UN in existence back then to broker peace? I am totally missing your point.
And NO, the Japanese weren't really already suing for peace. Some peace overtures had gone out the month previous but they were 1) not supported by the Japanese military over all and 2) were not in accordance with the allied peace demands.
The Socialist Workers Party newsletter is not a place to get your history from.
What is appalling? The fact that there was no UN in existence back then to broker peace? I am totally missing your point.
And NO, the Japanese weren't really already suing for peace. Some peace overtures had gone out the month previous but they were 1) not supported by the Japanese military over all and 2) were not in accordance with the allied peace demands.
The Socialist Workers Party newsletter is not a place to get your history from.
The same material can be found in many other places - including the History Channel.
Yes, 6 months prior to Hiroshima there were peace overtures. Did the military fully support it? I don't know.
The UN came into existence around the same time the war ended (same year) and it had to exist in some form prior to the official announcement, no?
I think the "new historians" are trying to push the UN or we've been lied to about our past. Perhaps both.
This is what I find on the UNO:
"In establishing this new organization, the United Nations, the main essence of the League of Nations remained, as "a significant number of the old League's aims and methods were transmitted into the [U.N.] in 1945." On June 26, 1945, the U.N. Charter was signed by representatives of 50 countries. Four months later, it was approved by the required number of nations."
So, OFFICIALLY, the UNO could not have brokered the peace. I'll write a letter to the History Channel asking them for clarification. :big_boss:
The UN charter was signed in June 1945 but did not go into effect until Oct 1945 (according to Wikipedia).
The "Allies" were the people at war with Japan and the ones who put forth their peace demands. Which were rejected by the Japanese.
Gutshot John
08-06-10, 10:40
The victorious allies and other non-axis nations called themselves "the united nations" as "allies" sounds less officious/diplomatic and there wasn't a formal alliance between them i.e. they were "united" in their opposition to the Axis. The "United Nations" name was taken subsequent to this precedent.
There were several attempts by the Axis to cease hostilities but the Allies were unanimous in nothing short of total surrender, something that was anathema to the Japanese no matter how many of their own died.
BTW, a naval blockade *is* an act of war. Unlike some I can fully accept errors in judgement of my nation and still love it as much as Life itself.
There was no US Naval Blockade of Japan prior to Pearl Harbor. This was not instituted until the second half of the war when we had the sea power to do so.
There was an EMBARGO on Japan prior to Pearl Harbor affecting oil, scrap metal, iron, and that sort of thing. This was due to Japan's warmongering in China and SE Asia.
Big Difference
War's hell... Don't start one with the US... How's that for an apology?
While the Japanese got handed their ass by Curtis LeMay and few smart scientists, I really subscribe to the train of thought that says dropping the bombs was the right thing to do. They literally saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides after observing the battles on smaller islands approaching Japan.
That being said, our stance was "unconditional surrender" which combined with the Japanese mindset really led to the huge casualty figures and desperate fighting. Why would the Japanese want to surrender when they could hold out and possibly get better terms than "unconditional?"
Spooky
War's hell... Don't start one with the US... How's that for an apology?
While the Japanese got handed their ass by Curtis LeMay and few smart scientists, I really subscribe to the train of thought that says dropping the bombs was the right thing to do. They literally saved hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides after observing the battles on smaller islands approaching Japan.
That being said, our stance was "unconditional surrender" which combined with the Japanese mindset really led to the huge casualty figures and desperate fighting. Why would the Japanese want to surrender when they could hold out and possibly get better terms than "unconditional?"
Spooky
I imagine right after Bataan the American people lost the desire to negotiate with those people. So we got the 'pretense' of an unconditional surrender. It wasn't really an easy decision. You either spend more American lives or disrespect those who already died.
In any case, the bomb was the best thing to happen to Japan. Saved million of Japanese lives and spared them a Russian invasion in the north. Had we invaded Kyushu (Operation Olympic), Stalin would have immediately invaded Hokkaido in the north resulting in either a communist partition similar to Korea or a complete loss of Japan similar to Vietnam.
In either case the Japanese were spared at least half a century of Russian communist domination. Only the bomb and our willingness to use it kept Russia out of Japan. Ironically, it would have been a fate they richly deserved and we saved them.
Yamashita Tomoyuki's Last Message to the Japanese People
He was the Japanese General who racked up most of the stunning ground victories early in the war, executed by MacArthur shortly after the war in the Philipines.
.......
Due to my carelessness and personal crassness, I committed an inexcusable blunder as the commander of the entire [14th Area] Army and consequently caused the deaths of your precious sons and dearest husbands. I am really sorry and cannot find appropriate words for sincere apologies as I am really confused because of my excruciating agony. As the commander of your beloved men, I am soon to receive the death penalty, having been judged by rigorous but impartial law. It is a strange coincidence that the execution is to be carried out on the birthday of the first U.S. president, George Washington.
I do not know how to express my apology, but the time has come to atone for my guilt with my death. However, I do not think that all the crimes for which I am responsible can easily be liquidated simply by my death. Various indelible stains that I left on the history of mankind cannot be offset by the mechanical termination of my life.
For a person like me who constantly faced death, to die is not at all difficult. Of course I should have committed suicide when I surrendered, as ordered by the emperor in accordance with the Japanese code of the samurai. In fact, I once decided to do so when I attended the surrender ceremonies at Kiangan and Baguio, at which General Percival, whom I had defeated [in Singapore], was also present. What prevented me from committing such an egocentric act was the presence of my soldiers, who did not yet know that the war was over at that time. By refusing to take my own life, I was able to set my men free from meaningless deaths, as those stationed around Kiangan were ready to commit suicide. I really felt pain from the shame of remaining alive, in violation of the samurai's code of "dying at the appropriate time in an appropriate place." I therefore can imagine how much more difficult it is for people like you to remain alive and re-build Japan rather than being executed as a war criminal. If I were not a war criminal, I would still have chosen a difficult path, bearing shame to stay alive and atone for my sins until natural death comes, no matter how you all might despise me.
Sun Tzu said 'The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.' From these words, we learn that our military forces were lethal weapons and their very existence was a crime. I tried my best to prevent the war. I am really ashamed of having been unable to do so because of my weakness. You may think that I am a born aggressor and a typical militarist, because my campaign in Malaya and the fall of Singapore excited the entire Japanese nation. I understand that this is quite natural. I do not excuse myself, as I was a professional soldier and dedicated myself to the military. But even while being a military man, I also have a relatively strong sense as a Japanese citizen. There is no resurrection any longer for the ruined nation and the dead. From ancient times, war has always been a matter for exceptional prudence by wise rulers and sensible soldiers. It was entirely due to our military authorities' arbitrary decisions, which were made by just a handful of people, that a large number of our people died and the rest of the nation was dragged into its present unbearable suffering. I feel as if my heart will break when I think that we professional soldiers will become the object of your bitter resentment. I believe that the Potsdam Declaration will wipe out the leaders of military cliques who led the nation to its downfall, and Japan will start rebuilding as a peaceful nation under new leaders elected by the popular will. However, the path of rebuilding the nation will not be easy in the face of many obstacles.
The experience that you went through, enduring various difficulties and poverty in the last ten years of war, will inevitably give you some strength, even though it was as an unwelcome result of pressure from the military authorities. To construct a new Japan, you really must not include militarists who are the relics of the past or opportunistic unprincipled politicians, or scholars patronized by the government who try to rationalize an aggressive war.
Probably some appropriate policies will be adopted by the Allied Occupation Forces. But I would like to say something on this point, as I am just about to die and thus have great concern about Japan's future. Weeds have a strong life force, and grow again when spring comes, no matter how hard they are trodden underfoot. I am confident that, with strong determination for development, you will rebuild our nation now completely destroyed, and make it a highly cultured one like Denmark. Denmark lost its fertile land in Schleswig-Holstein as the result of the German-Denmark War in 1863, but gave up rearming themselves and made their infertile areas into one of the most cultured of European nations. As a ruined people, we repent having done wrong. I will pray for Japan's restoration from a grave in a foreign country.
Japanese people, you have expelled the militarists and will gain your own independence. Please stand up firmly after the ravages of war. That is my wish. I am a simple soldier. Faced with execution in a very short time, a thousand emotions overwhelm me. But in addition to apologizing, I want to express my views on certain matters. I feel sorry that I cannot express myself very well, because I am a man of action, reticent and with a limited vocabulary. The time of my execution is drawing near. I have only one hour and forty minutes left. Probably only convicts on death row are capable of comprehending the value of one hour and forty minutes. I asked Mr. Morita, a prison chaplain, to record these words and I hope he will pass my ideas on to you some day.
Facing death, I have four things to say to you, the people of the nation of Japan as it resurrects.
First, is about carrying out one's duty. From ancient times, this topic has repeatedly been discussed by scholars, yet it remains most difficult to achieve. Without a sense of duty, a democratic and cooperative society cannot exist. Duty has to be fulfilled as a result of self-regulating and naturally motivated action. I feel some misgivings in thinking about this, considering that you are suddenly to be liberated from the social restraints under which you have long lived.
I often discussed this with my junior officers. The moral decay of our military was so grave that the Imperial Code of Military Conduct as well as the Field Service Code were simply dead letters. Therefore, we had to remind people of this all the time, even in the military where obedience was strongly demanded and defying orders was not allowed at all. In this war, it was far from true that officers under my command carried out their duties satisfactorily.
They were unable to fulfill even the duties that were imposed upon them. Therefore I have some concern over your ability to fulfill your duty voluntarily and independently, after being released from long-standing social restraints. I wonder if you'll be dazzled by suddenly bestowed freedom, and whether some may fail to carry out your duty as required in relations with others, as you've received basically the same education as military men. In a free society, you should nurture your own ability to make moral judgments in order to carry out your duties. Duties can only be carried out correctly by a socially mature person with an independent mind and with culture and dignity.
The fundamental reason why the world has lost confidence in our nation, and why we have so many war-crime suspects who left ugly scars on our history, was this lack of morals. I would like you to cultivate and accept the common moral judgment of the world, and become a people who fulfill duties on your own responsibility. You are expected to be independent and carve out your own future. No one can avoid this responsibility and choose an easy way. Only through that path can eternal peace be attained in the world.
Second, I would like you to promote education in science. No one can deny that the level of Japan's modern science, apart from certain minor areas, is well below world standards. If you travel outside Japan, the first thing you notice is the unscientific way of life of the Japanese. To search for truth with Japan's irrational and cliquish mentality is like searching for fish among the trees.
We soldiers had great difficulties in securing the necessary materials to fight and to make up for the lack of scientific knowledge. We tried to fight against the superior forces of the United States and to win the war by throwing away the priceless lives of our nation as substitutes for bullets and bombs. Various methods of horrendous suicide attack were invented. We exposed our pilots to danger by stripping vital equipment from the planes in order to just slightly improve their mobility. This shows how little knowledge we had for conducting war. We made the greatest mistake -- unprecedented in world history -- by trying to make up for the lack of materials and scientific knowledge with human bodies.
My present state of mind is quite different from that at the time of surrender. In the car on the way to Baguio from Kiangan, Mr. Robert MacMillan, a journalist of the magazine Youth asked, what I thought was the fundamental reason for Japan's defeat. Something suppressed for a long time in my sub-consciousness suddenly burst out and I instantly responded "science," before referring to other important issues. This was because my long-lasting frustration and intense anger were loosened all at once when the war was over.
I am not saying that this is the only reason, but it was clearly one important reason for Japan's defeat. If there will be another war somewhere in the world (although I hope there won't be), it is expected end in a short time through the use of horrific scientific weapons. The foolish methods of war that Japan adopted will be regarded as the illusions of an idiot. Human beings throughout the world, I presume, will make efforts to prevent such a terrible war -- not just the Japanese who thoroughly endured the horror of this war. This is the task that is given to humanity.
The atomic bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrendous weapons. Never before have so many people been killed instantly in the long history of slaughtering human beings. As I have been in prison, I have not had enough time to study the A-bomb, but I think that no weapon will be invented to defend against atomic weapons. It used to be said that it would always be possible to fight against a new method of attack. This is still true. If there is any method to defend against atomic bombs -- the weapon that has made obsolete all past warfare -- it would simply be to create nations all over the world that would never contemplate the use of such weapons.
A defeated officer like me reflects sadly that if we had had superior scientific knowledge and sufficient scientific weapons, we would not have killed so many of our own men. Instead we could have sent them back home to use the knowledge as the foundation to rebuild a glorious and peaceful country. However, the science that I mean is not science that leads mankind to destruction. It is science that will develop natural resources still to be tapped, that will make human life rich, and will be used for peaceful purposes to free human beings from misery and poverty.
Third, I want to mention the education of women. I have heard that Japanese women have been liberated from the feudal state authorities and been given the privilege of suffrage. From my experience of living in foreign countries for a long time, I can say that the position of modern Japanese women is inferior to that of women in the west.
I am slightly apprehensive about the fact that freedom for Japanese women is a generous gift from the Occupation Forces, not one that they struggled to acquire themselves. A gift is often enjoyed as an object of appreciation and not actually put to direct use. The highest virtues for Japanese women used to be "obedience" and "fidelity." That was no different from "obedient allegiance" in the military. A person who respects such castrated and slave-like virtues has been called a "chaste woman" or praised as a "loyal and brave soldier." In such values, there is no freedom of action or freedom of thought, and they are not the virtues by which one can self-examine autonomously. My hope is that you will break out of your old shell, enrich your education, and become new active Japanese women, while maintaining only the good elements of existing values. The driving force for peace is the heart of women. Please utilize your newly gained freedom effectively and appropriately. Your freedom should not be violated or taken away by anyone. As free women, you should be united with women throughout the world and give full play to your unique abilities as women. If not, you will be squandering all the privileges that you have been given.
Finally, there is one more thing that I would like to tell women -- you are either already a mother or will become a mother in future. You should clearly realize that one of a mother's responsibilities is a very important role in the "human education" of the next generation.
I have always been unhappy about the idea that modern education begins at school. The home is the most appropriate place for educating infants and the most appropriate teacher is the mother. You alone can lay the foundation for education in its true meaning. If you do not want to be criticized as worthless women, please do your best in educating your own children. Education does not begin at kindergarten or on entry to elementary school. It should begin when you breastfeed a newborn baby. It is a mother's privilege to have a special feeling that no one else can have when she cuddles and breastfeeds her baby. Mothers should give their love to their baby both physically and mentally, as they are the baby's source of life. Breastfeeding can be done by another, and nourishment can be provided by other animals, or can be substituted for by a bottle. Yet nothing else can substitute for mother's love.
It is not enough for a mother to think only about how to keep her children alive. She should raise them to be able to live independently, cope with various circumstances, love peace, appreciate cooperation with others and have a strong desire to contribute to humanity when they grow up.
You should raise the joyful feeling of breastfeeding to the level of intellectual emotion and refined love. Mother's love will constantly flow into her baby's body through breastfeeding. The fundamental elements of future education must exist in embryo in mother's milk. Attention to the baby's needs can be the basis for education. Untiring mothering skills should naturally develop into a higher level of educational skill. I am not a specialist on education and therefore I am not sure how appropriate it is, but I would like to call this kind of education "breastfeeding education." Please bear this simple and ordinary phrase in your mind. These are the last words of the person who took your children's lives away from you.
His apology is really more of a **** you than anything else. He is not sorry for the misdeeds of Japan and himself so much as he is sorry Japan lost and must suffer the consequences.
In traditional Japanese culture your lot in life was obeying your better. To even criticize your superior was rather unthinkable. This is extremely very harsh criticism of the government and the war. Yamashita was one of the few officers that was independently minded and not prone to the unnecessary brutality that plagued the Japanese and German armies. In fact since he ordered no massacres they had to invent a doctrine of command responsibility.
The speech Hirohito gave to the Japanese people announcing their surrender is the gold standard of face-saving backpedaling and still the official narrative. Most of their own military was absolutely aghast when the empire took university students and turned them into kamikazes to buy mere minutes for a war that was largely considered doomed from the beginning. But the only narrative that remains are the "cruel bombs."
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/hirohito.htm
"Despite the best that has been done by everyone--the gallant fighting of our military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of out servants of the State and the devoted service of our 100,000,000 people--the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest."
I had a grandfather and great uncle in the South Pacific during WWII.
My grandfather was in the Army Air Corps, he was in the Philippines and Papua New Guinea. My great uncle was US Navy and all over the place.
**** Imperial Japan.
jklaughrey
08-06-10, 23:50
I agree Templar, my Grandfather and great uncles fought in the Pacific, Marines OOHRAH. Anyways my Grandfather was a mustang after his entire platoon was killed. Of course after the war he was made enlisted again. But he dealt with the Japs and saw first hand the atrocities of their nature in combat. He still hated the Japs even on his death bed. I guess some acts can never be forgiven even with the passage of decades. So in other words **** the Japanese Imperial Military, just like you. The only apology I see they deserve is a sorry for not dropping a few more and sending them back to the stone age!
I always understood, on an intellectual level, that nuking Japan ended the war earlier, and saved lives on both sides by preventing the necessity of an amphibious invasion that would have made Normandy look like a cakewalk.
Then, a few years ago, I was shown something that made it stick on an emotional level.
It was a simple knife. It looked much like a late-war Arisaka bayonet, very crude, but without any kind of latching mechanism. It just had two holes punched in the crossguard. When I asked what it was, the owner said it was a cheap knife that the Japs made in the last months of the war and issued to civilians. These civilians were supposed to lash the knife to a bamboo pole, making a spear. Then they were supposed to hit the beaches and fight the Marines.
If a nation was willing to spend the last of its people fighting soldiers by using women, children and old men armed with nothing but spears, what kind of slaughter would a US invasion have caused? Not only among the American servicemen, but among the Japanese civilian population?
Looking at that old knife, and the mindset it represented, my only thought was "Nuking them was the kindest act possible." The proof's in the pudding. Japan's an economic powerhouse, free from outside influence (at least, as much as any nation can be). They sell us lots of stuff, and have one of the highest standards of living of any nation today. If anything, they got off easy for what they did in the 30s and 40s. The same with Germany. But both nations had to be beaten into the ground, bombed back into the stone age, before they quit. Now we've molded them into model citizens on the international stage. One wonders if there's a lesson there...
Some peace overtures had gone out the month previous but they were 1) not supported by the Japanese military over all and 2) were not in accordance with the allied peace demands.
.
They were attempting to avoid the unconditional surrender that was demanded, and it didn't fly. We had back bone then, a quality so lacking today.
SeriousStudent
08-07-10, 10:14
I can certainly understand Templar's view.
I'm a former Marine. Like others who entered the Corps, I was taught to appreciate the great sacrifices made by those who went before us.
What made it personal to me was a 1st Marine Division veteran I met in Perth, while on a WestPac float. He had survived the war, and returned there to marry his sweetheart.
He spoke of the emotions his fellow Marines felt, after they heard the Japanese had surrendered. This was a man that had survived Guadalcanal, Peleliu and Okinawa.
"We were dead men in living bodies. We knew we would never survive. None of us would ever see home again. Then Truman dropped the bomb, and gave us life again."
Thirty years later, it was still a very difficult thing for him to think of, and to speak about. That conversation was a long time ago, but his words and emotions burned into my head.
It's why many of us Misguided Children have such veneration for our predecessors. They walked into Hell, and a miracle delivered them back to us.
I lived in Japan while a Marine on active duty. I was polite, I was respectful. But I also knew what my forefathers had to do, based on their actions.
I'd rather slice off an arm, than apologize for bombing those two cities.
jklaughrey
08-07-10, 10:21
You didn't happen to get this man's name or what unit exactly he was with. My grandfather served with 1st MarDiv as a Sgt until '43 when he was "mustanged" to 2nd Lt.
Thomas M-4
08-07-10, 10:27
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did. People wear blinders when it comes to their team, but right is right, wrong is wrong. The targeting of a civilian population is in the wrong. Killing woman and children is... wrong. So to target a group of woman and children and to blow them to shit is wrong. It was wrong in 1945, and still is wrong in 2010.
Both Japan and Germany had nuclear programs also..
And the bombing of civilians had been started at the beginning by Germany and Japan. We just escalated to a new point.
IMHO the reason for some of the denial in Japan and Germany is how utterly destroyed the countries were after and the world realization of how powerful the US had become.
Look at were we are today ..
It was total war, not seen since.
As most here know, more civilians died in the British and American fire bombing of German cities like Dresden.
After seeing some of the pictures that my grandfather took in the Philippines and New Guinea, which were never shown to my mother or her sister, if we'd had more than two bombs, we should have used them.
It was total war, not seen since.
As most here know, more civilians died in the British and American fire bombing of German cities like Dresden.
After seeing some of the pictures that my grandfather took in the Philippines and New Guinea, which were never shown to my mother or her sister, if we'd had more than two bombs, we should have used them.
And more to the point. Whenever people decry the civilian casualties of Dresden and Hiroshima, I consider the act of performing a vivisection on a child. While not as scientifically advanced as an atomic bomb I think it is easily as horrific. And unlike an atomic bomb, not an unavoidable action of war.
Of the three countries Germany, Japan and the US we are the only ones who can say "we never did that." So those other two can take their "Oh the poor civilians" crap and shove it up their ass. Anyone who protests Dresden should automatically go to a hell where they are under the personal care of Josef Mengele and anyone who protests Hiroshima/Nagasaki should be automatically transported to Unit 731.
rickrock305
08-07-10, 14:12
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/Tim_Orrock/Funny%20stuff/HydrogenBomb-1.jpg
that is hilarious! :D
GermanSynergy
08-07-10, 17:31
Germany opened that can of worms by targeting civilian poplation centres such as Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry & Lidice. As a former German, I feel it was let off the hook too easily after the war.
And more to the point. Whenever people decry the civilian casualties of Dresden and Hiroshima, I consider the act of performing a vivisection on a child. While not as scientifically advanced as an atomic bomb I think it is easily as horrific. And unlike an atomic bomb, not an unavoidable action of war.
Of the three countries Germany, Japan and the US we are the only ones who can say "we never did that." So those other two can take their "Oh the poor civilians" crap and shove it up their ass. Anyone who protests Dresden should automatically go to a hell where they are under the personal care of Josef Mengele and anyone who protests Hiroshima/Nagasaki should be automatically transported to Unit 731.
Army Chief
08-07-10, 18:25
Germany opened that can of worms by targeting civilian poplation centres such as Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry & Lidice. As a former German, I feel it was let off the hook too easily after the war.
I respect your opinion, and you may be right, but I think we were eager to avoid the lessons of Versailles. Punitive post-conquest policies only breed resistance and anti-everybody nationalism.
AC
GermanSynergy
08-07-10, 18:29
You're right, and the reality of the immediate post war era in Europe during 1945-46 (with the onset of the Cold War) permitted the US and the USSR to "overlook" the backgrounds of some dubious individuals, so long as they served a need.
I respect your opinion, and you may be right, but I think we were eager to avoid the lessons of Versailles. Punitive post-conquest policies only breed resistance and anti-everybody nationalism.
AC
CarlosDJackal
08-07-10, 20:53
I think we should apologize to Japan for making them the only nation in history to be on the receiving end of Nuclear Weapons.
But only if:
(1) They publicly apologize for the many attrocities they perpetrated against the multitude of Nations (IE: USA, Philippines, the UK, NZ, Australia, China, Manchuria, etc.) they wronged that led up to Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
(2) They should also write a letter of apoligy to the surviving ancestors of those who they wronged during that time period (IE: Nanking, Bataan, POW Camps, etc.).
(3) They burn all those "Alternate History" textbooks that they've been using all those years and actually educate their youth to the REAL facts about WWII.
My Father (may he RIP) survived the Battle of Bataan, the Bataan Death March, and the torture he was put through as a POW after. He passed away 6-years ago and we are loosing a lot of our WWII Veterans at an estimated rate of 1,000 per day. The remaining survivors, especially the former POWs, deserve to hear an apology for the inhumane treatment they endured at the hands of the Japanese. JM2CW.
... Imagine if the role was reversed, a foreign power invading our country. Everyone would fight tooth and nail to defend. ....
Yeah, I agree completely...
If it was still the 1940's. Maybe even the '50's. But today's "metro-sexual" uh, ah, "male" could at best only delivery a bitch slap. And that only after he put on his make-up first. We may be in a majority on this forum (those who would "fight tooth and nail"), but I fear we are in the minority in this country.
CarlosDJackal
08-07-10, 23:15
...From what I learned in history both Japan and Germany sued for peace (whether it was total surrender or a cessation of military action I do not recall at present but it could be found witin 1/2 hour with a websearch) prior to the UN-brokered peace (which is appalling to me.
There was no UN during WWII.
CarlosDJackal
08-07-10, 23:29
I'm going to get shit for it, but how was the use of nuclear weapons against the japanese any different than the use of gas against the kurds? We targeted woman in children of our enemy, the same thing saddam did...
I submit that dropping "Fat Boy" and "Little Man" not only forced the end of a TOTAL WORLD WAR it did so in such a way that the Japanese lost any will to execute the Allied POWs that they had brought onto Japanese soil as slave labor in their mines and such.
Do you think those thousands of Americans, British, New Zealanders, Australians, etc. would have been allowed to live to tell their tales if we had not dropped the bombs? What are the chances that they would have forced our Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines would have had to fight their way from one Japanese island to another for Operation Downfall? How many thousands more would the Allies have lost in the process?
I don't recall the Kurds being in the same situation when they were gassed, do you? :rolleyes:
SeriousStudent
08-07-10, 23:47
You didn't happen to get this man's name or what unit exactly he was with. My grandfather served with 1st MarDiv as a Sgt until '43 when he was "mustanged" to 2nd Lt.
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