View Full Version : Carrying Concealed vs Concealing a Handgun
For anyone who's bothered to follow my posts (or read them in succession), they've probably figured out that I tend to over-engineer and over-think things. This is probably one of them.
I'm working on getting my carry permit - I should have it by October. After looking at various holster setups, mag rigs, etc. in preparation of said permit, I decided to look into bug-out bags, namely the ones that look like you could buy them at a clothing store and don't scream "tactical." My reasoning is three-fold: for one, it frees me up from having to dress around my weapon; two, it allows me to avoid printing; and three, it allows me to pack other accessories that would normally be limited to available clothing storage space (i.e. four extra mags, flashlight, etc).
Some of you might be thinking "You just haven't found the right holster yet" or "You don't know how to carry concealed very efficiently" - on both counts, you're probably right. However, I'm not a big guy (5' 11" and 170lbs) and I can also get away with a messenger-style bag due to my wardrobe style. I'm not saying I won't use a holster, I'm just saying that I like the idea of a bag at this point.
So enough about me, here's the question:
Say I walk into a crowded public area and a cop gets suspicious (for whatever reason - "why" and "what" isn't the point) and asks to see inside the bag. Inside, he finds a loaded pistol and four additional magazines.
Assuming I show him my carry permit, is this any more of a liability than simply carrying concealed on one's person? Logically and functionally, they both serve the same purpose, but the idea of someone carrying an "arsenal" in their bag compared to concealing a holstered pistol might potentially be even more politically incorrect.
Any thoughts?
SW-Shooter
08-05-10, 19:10
Bad guy walks up to you and asks you what time is it? He's dressed like a yuppie so your radar isn't screaming. You look at your watch and tell him the time. He pulls out a knife and say's "give me your bag or else".
Would you have time to remove it from your bag?
Now, imagine the scenario with a properly concealed, carry weapon in a IWB holster.
My gun remains concealed in a well made IWB holster.
Complication
08-05-10, 19:27
There's no substitute for carrying on your person. I'm 6'0" 160 lbs. I conceal a G19 with an x300 just fine with any untucked buttoned shirt. Even my slim-fitting, "Euro-cut" dress shirts conceal my gun fine (albeit, I have to carry at 4:30, 5 o'clock). Hell, if I'm mindful of printing, I can conceal with a tight-fitting t-shirt too. Unless you always wear muscle shirts, you definitely don't have to dress to the weapon, even for a guy your size.
I'll let other, more articulate and direct forum members explain to you why not having your gun on your person is a bad idea (especially when you're perfectly capable of it), but trust me, with the right holster (IWB, probably) in the right position (maybe 4:30/5 o'clock), you can conceal just fine without having to wear a parka around everywhere. If you were a pixie of a woman and had to deal with the fact that most women's clothes are basically skin-tight, I'd say go for the bag but with men's clothes there's plenty of lateral space between your shoulder blades and the small of your back to pack a gun back there SOMEWHERE. But with the right rig (basically any good kydex IWB) and a compact or sub-compact gun, you're more than able to conceal.
For a two-gun setup, and if you're no-shit mindful of where that bag is and maintain positive control over it, that's a very good solution; the caveat of that being that for the trouble and weight at least have a smaller weapon on you that is faster to access (e.g. lightweight .38 hammerless revolver).
I've kind of given up on political correctness when it comes to carrying, but that applies to regions I've been carrying.
The excuse that you're going to or from the range (or got busy whilst trying to) covers some of these things.
Complication
08-05-10, 19:31
If you really want to carry all that gear and you're going to have a bag on you all the time, keep all your spare mags and flashlights in the bag and let the bag rest on top of your gun. That way you keep the gun on your body and you almost never have to worry about printing.
(I've got a fat mag carrier so I can't carry a spare mag without it printing something fierce, so I know what you mean, but I just keep it in my briefcase.)
rickrock305
08-05-10, 19:38
(I've got a fat mag carrier so I can't carry a spare mag without it printing something fierce, so I know what you mean, but I just keep it in my briefcase.)
on that note, i've been looking for some very low profile mag carriers for a spare, but i can't seem to find any. i guess preferably IWB. i remember seeing one a while back but don't remember the brand. anyone have any suggestions?
as to the OP, its no more a liability from a legal perspective than carrying on your body. but from a practical perspective, its not something i would suggest. wearing a gun on your person, its always in arms reach. in a bag, not so much. plus the reasons others have mentioned.
Carrying off body is widely regarded as poor idea - from already mentioned issue of bag being a robbery target to inevitable need to take bag off in a number of situations to very poor draw/ first shot and reload times. Draw especially suffers if support hand is disabled or engaged.
My everyday bag is carry-capable via Velcro holster. I've tried it - it sucks. I carry iwb.
Complication
08-05-10, 19:54
on that note, i've been looking for some very low profile mag carriers for a spare, but i can't seem to find any. i guess preferably IWB. i remember seeing one a while back but don't remember the brand. anyone have any suggestions?
Personally, I need a kydex carrier. I have a leather carrier and it's just too damn thick. I've also been told that "flared" carriers (kind of like how RCS holsters/carrier are really wide but curve gently out instead of being real narrow and poking out) might help too. Haven't really spent any time looking around.
rickrock305
08-05-10, 19:58
yea, i believe the ones that caught my eye before were kydex
Belmont31R
08-05-10, 21:18
One of the benefits of carrying concealed on your person is there are many ways to do it, and its always on you.
I do have a bag like you describe but it has a completely different use. Im not going to carry around a bag just to keep my CCW in it. Think about it....getting out of your car to get gas, run into the gas station, go for a bite to eat, etc. Its impractical to carry a friggin bag with you doing all these things.
I just bought a SW MP340 because IWB or OWB is impossible with a tucked in shirt to stay concealed, and its a small enough pistol you can carry it in a front pocket. I normally carry a USP 45C IWB.
Ive gained a little bit of weight but yes you really do have to alter your wardrobe to carry a CCW, and get a holster that works for you. Thats why we all have a pile of holsters at home that didn't work. When you find the clothing combo, holster, and gun that works for you I promise you will forget you are even carrying half the time. If you are going to try to get around this by carrying a gun bag around all the time you are putting yourself at a big disadvantage in defending yourself. Im quite sure you'll find a bag to be impractical in short order. Those things are better left in your trunk with some spare mags, a small med kit, and basically stuff to get you home if you need to. You are going to look out of place, and if I saw someone carrying around that type of garbage it means they are carrying something of value be it their pot stash, a gun, a computer, etc. They draw attention, and would be a muggers wet dream to catch a male carrying around a bag. The only reason a male is carrying a bag is because they have something of value in it.
OP - You might want to check the laws in your state. In VA carrying concealed means on your person and NOT in a purse or a bag. I don't know about TN but I highly recommend you check before you head out the door that way.
I'm not a big guy either, in fact I'm smaller than you (5'5" 130lbs) and I carried my G26 all day in this rotten-ass heat (105) and when I took my truck to the dealership I took my LCR along in my weak-hand pocket. So if I can comfortably carry two guns you can too.
on that note, i've been looking for some very low profile mag carriers for a spare, but i can't seem to find any. i guess preferably IWB. i remember seeing one a while back but don't remember the brand. anyone have any suggestions?
Check out the CCC spare mag holders or the Ravens. Both are fantastic and low profile.
just to reiterate and consolidate whats been said-
bags easily separate you from your weapon. if you need to un-ass a vehicle quickly, get out during a traffic accident, or as belmont said- run into a gas station or convenience store- two of the most likely places you'll ever need to use it- etc, etc, etc.. plus, as somebody else touched on- reloads from strong side are ridiculous hard, unless you're some kind of circus bendertwistyjuggler person.
better to change up the wardrobe. i like to tuck my shirts in, but when it's screaming hot out, i simply have to leave my shirt un-tucked. makes me look a little sloppy, but that's fine. otherwise, i wear a carhart vest about 90% of the time. it screams CCW to cops, but not to most other people. if you like the appendix IWB types, you can even tuck your shirt in and not print...
there's lots of options, and you really need to explore and exhaust all of them before you jump into the realm of off-body carry.
jklaughrey
08-05-10, 22:49
Those new LCR/LCP's are very nice for weak side pocket carry, I carry one myself as a BUG to my G23. Off body carry is just plain asking to be caught with just your Johnson to fight with if attacked.
I prefer to always keep my weapon on me. Too many issues with trying to always keep up with said bag.
One thing you will learn when you CCW is that you will spend some money over time finding the right combination of holster, comfort, accessability, etc...
One thing I have learned is that a good proper belt will help significantly to keeping your holster close to the body and concelaed.
ChicagoTex
08-06-10, 08:00
4+1 mags for EDC CCW is beyond overkill. a maximum of 2 extra is much more realistic.
Your idea of a MURSE probably means you don't want to spend uber-dollars on CCW holster/belt/spare mag. I CCW daily with a Galco Matrix M7X---it didn't break the bank, and my Aker reinforced leather belt doesn't sag under holster weight. I even put a Surefire 6PLED and a Galco mag carrier on the support side because most gun failures are mag related. I need to consider getting the Galco holster that carries a spare mag and flashlight together however I don't like paddles. Good luck on your new found method of SD.
CarlosDJackal
08-06-10, 12:55
What you are talking about is the difference between "On Body" and "Off Body" carry. While either means of carrying a concealed handgun should be covered by your permit (NOTE: Jurisdictional variances should be taken into account); both have their issues.
On-body carry is not always the most comfortable and depending on your situation (where it is and whether you are seated). But the off-body carry is even worse. If for whatever reason you are separated from the item that contains the handgun, then that's it. You are effectively made sheeple (IE: accidentally locking it in your car along with your keys).
If I am going to have a concealed handgun, I want it on my person otherwise I don't even bother. JM2CW.
Complication
08-06-10, 13:05
If for whatever reason you are separated from the item that contains the handgun, then that's it. You are effectively made sheeple.
Worse than being unarmed (because even with a CCW you go about without your gun from time to time--big deal), if you are separated from the bag, you no longer have control over your gun. I think most people would recommend that your gun is kept either a) on your person (including in a bag) or b) locked in your car/house/desk at work/whatever at all times (perhaps the exception being at a range when you might rest it on a table).
With a bag, you can leave it somewhere where it might get stolen (table at a restaurant, bench at a park, etc) or you can straight up lose it. Best case: someone finds the bag with a gun in it and calls the cops. And who knows what sort of laws there are in various jurisdictions that might allow someone to lay a negligence or endangerment charge on you (no clue if that's possible) if they really want--regardless I think most cops would frown upon losing your gun. Worst case: whoever finds it is up to no good and your gun ends up being used in the commission of a crime.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-06-10, 13:12
A holster is for you handgun, the bag is for your SBR ;)
I'd be too nervous about getting the bag swiped. Those bags scream laptop or iPad.
I don't think that four mags is that much overkill, or really that if you have a bag on you, what is really the extra weight? You are more into bugout/AS shooter territory there then straight CCW.
I think the kydex/leather hybrid holsters like the Minatour, Crossbreed will help with CCWing. I'm you height and I wish I was as skinny. An IWB holster with a tucked shirt and some blousing will hide almost anything.
Complication
08-06-10, 13:18
A holster is for you handgun, the bag is for your SBR ;)
Thank you. I will now forever look at men carrying tote/messenger bags and think "I wonder if he's got an SBR in there?"
if i pop the upper off, my SBR fits in my brief case perfectly. and si, i have carried it that way before, for special occasions. :secret:
Good advice in this thread.
When contemplating off-body carry, try accessing the gun while actively engaged in a fight, from irregular positions, with strong, support, or both hands occupied.
A friend of mine is about 5'4, 130-140 pounds. He manages to regularly carry a primary and BUG. Just sayin'.
As for interaction with LE... On- or off-body carry isn't going to make much difference with most, unless there's a local statutory issue.
In VA carrying concealed means on your person and NOT in a purse or a bag.
Can you give me a citation for that law?
rickrock305
08-06-10, 15:43
Can you give me a citation for that law?
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf
variablebinary
08-06-10, 16:20
A weapon you cant access in 2-3 seconds is useless on the street.
A weapon you cant access in 2-3 seconds is useless on the street.
access and begin firing - and preferably closer to 2 or less.. which is only going to happen with lots and lots of training with your setup. are you going to go to the range and drill with your bag?
when it happens, who survives is gonna come down to who's faster.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf
Where does it say that in this link you gave?
rickrock305
08-06-10, 18:49
Where does it say that in this link you gave?
it may or may not, i didn't look. but thats a good resource for gun laws by state.
Some of you might be thinking "You just haven't found the right holster yet" or "You don't know how to carry concealed very efficiently" - on both counts, you're probably right. However, I'm not a big guy (5' 11" and 170lbs) and I can also get away with a messenger-style bag due to my wardrobe style. I'm not saying I won't use a holster, I'm just saying that I like the idea of a bag at this point.
Same height but 15-20lbs lighter. Everywhere I go there is a M&P9 fullsize or M&P9c on me. It was 108 yesterday. Us skinny bastards actually have it easier, no love handles to push the gun out and our chest is generally larger than our waist. I don't know what you wear, but I can get away with the compact in a medium tshirt and it just takes a synthetic golf style polo or fishing shirt to hide the fullsize.
No excuses.
glock 26. that's your answer.
carrying a gun in a bag is a headache. you can't put the bag down, anywhere.
IWB, you rarely have to think about it.
Thank you. I will now forever look at men carrying tote/messenger bags and think "I wonder if he's got an SBR in there?"
there's this tall-ass hippy looking dude on campus who always has a fanny pack.
i almost wanna ask him if he's got a gun in there :D
he's got that look though where maybe he seriously just doesn't have the fashion sense to put his wallet in his pocket. :confused:
there's this tall-ass hippy looking dude on campus who always has a fanny pack.
i almost wanna ask him if he's got a gun in there :D
he's got that look though where maybe he seriously just doesn't have the fashion sense to put his wallet in his pocket. :confused:
that's where he keeps hit hippy kit, holms.. pipe, grass, lighters, paperclips, rolling papers, safety pins.. might even have a roller in there, a mini keefer, a hooka attachment for impromptu smokeouts, etc.
I can't really add anything beyond what's already been said, though I have carried in a bag under rare circumstances. When I do, I ALWAYS have a J-frame that I can grab easily in addition to the gun in the bag. And even then, I'm not comfortable. The bag is a great way to carry extra ammo, but I prefer the gun in my holster.
Don Robison
08-07-10, 00:59
on that note, i've been looking for some very low profile mag carriers for a spare, but i can't seem to find any. i guess preferably IWB. i remember seeing one a while back but don't remember the brand. anyone have any suggestions?
Dale's stuff is quality and he stands behind it.
http://www.onesourcetactical.com/archangelinsidewaistbandmagazinepouch.aspx
that's where he keeps hit hippy kit, holms.. pipe, grass, lighters, paperclips, rolling papers, safety pins.. might even have a roller in there, a mini keefer, a hooka attachment for impromptu smokeouts, etc.
hmm.. you seem to know a lot about this ;)
one bugout bag for when the shit hits the fan, one for "buggin out" :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4arc View Post
In VA carrying concealed means on your person and NOT in a purse or a bag.
------
Can you give me a citation for that law?
I would like to know more about this as well. Specifically as it relates to VA. The law specifically states "about his person" and not "on his person"
I know people that carry in a briefcase or handbag. Surely they can't be in violation of the law for doing so? I would think just the opposite, that without a permit they would be in violation.
A fanny pack might be a better option for you.
kaltesherz
08-09-10, 13:17
that's where he keeps hit hippy kit, holms.. pipe, grass, lighters, paperclips, rolling papers, safety pins.. might even have a roller in there, a mini keefer, a hooka attachment for impromptu smokeouts, etc.
You forgot the most important one: HACKY SACK!
But seriously it's not hard to conceal a good 9mm in an IWB holster. Just buy a good one and wear it around the house for a little while you wait for your permit. You'll get used to it and it'll feel a lot more natural in no time.
Oh, and 4 spare mags is crazy overkill. Remember 99% of cops carry 2, I've never heard of a civilian gun fight needing ONE reload let alone four.
ChicagoTex
08-09-10, 13:36
A fanny pack might be a better option for you.
If you go that route I can't tell you how much I recommend you weave the fanny pack strap into a couple of your belt loops for retention against pack snatchers.
Blinking Dog
08-09-10, 15:19
Same height but 15-20lbs lighter. Everywhere I go there is a M&P9 fullsize or M&P9c on me. It was 108 yesterday. Us skinny bastards actually have it easier, no love handles to push the gun out and our chest is generally larger than our waist. I don't know what you wear, but I can get away with the compact in a medium tshirt and it just takes a synthetic golf style polo or fishing shirt to hide the fullsize.
No excuses.
The plight of the smaller guy is often overlooked when it comes to holster options, but as you point out we don't have the muffin top to contend with...which is nice. :D I'm 5'10" 140# and conceal a 5" 1911 in a VMII with pretty much any shirt I choose to wear. The biggest problem I have isn't the gun sticking out the side, it is the weight pulling down one side of my pants or shorts.
Anyway, the point I was going to make is that smaller guys shouldn't automatically overlook a big 1911. The single-stack is easier to hide, for me anyway. Actually easier for me to hide my 1911 than my G19 (I think). And there are slimmed down 1911 options if you're so inclined.
OP, I think you should give on body carry a chance before attempting the murse route. You'll find something that works, I'm sure of it. An untucked button down will hide pretty much anything and won't usually look out of place or sloppy depending on the shirt and how you wear it. You might want to consider carrying less shit though. 1 extra mag and a flashlight are probably more than enough. Dare I say that you're unlikely to shoot some asshole to begin with, much less get into a shooting that would require you to reload. If you carry it for malfunction clearance fine, but we're getting into lightning strike odds here I think. Either way, you'll probably be fine.
The plight of the smaller guy is often overlooked when it comes to holster options, but as you point out we don't have the muffin top to contend with...which is nice. :D I'm 5'10" 140# and conceal a 5" 1911 in a VMII with pretty much any shirt I choose to wear. The biggest problem I have isn't the gun sticking out the side, it is the weight pulling down one side of my pants or shorts.
Anyway, the point I was going to make is that smaller guys shouldn't automatically overlook a big 1911. The single-stack is easier to hide, for me anyway. Actually easier for me to hide my 1911 than my G19 (I think). And there are slimmed down 1911 options if you're so inclined.
I'm not a "smaller guy" by any means, but I agree. On-body carry is MUCH to be preferred, and the right carry gear can help you make it happen with no real drawback. I do find that my 5" 1911 conceals a little better than my Glock 19, but even for people a lot smaller than I, either one of these weapons is effectively disappeared with the use of a proper IWB holster. OP, you can doo eeet!
varoadking
08-09-10, 19:26
In VA carrying concealed means on your person and NOT in a purse or a bag.
I wasn't aware that VA made that distinction or exclusion relative to the CHP...
You forgot the most important one: HACKY SACK!
But seriously it's not hard to conceal a good 9mm in an IWB holster. Just buy a good one and wear it around the house for a little while you wait for your permit. You'll get used to it and it'll feel a lot more natural in no time.
Oh, and 4 spare mags is crazy overkill. Remember 99% of cops carry 2, I've never heard of a civilian gun fight needing ONE reload let alone four.
how could i forget the hack?
as to magazines- i'm gonna have to disagree. just going from a guess, i'd say at least a 3rd of shootings i've read about either involved a reload, or the good guy running dry before all the bodies hit the floor, because no reload was available.
i carry spares for both pistol and carbine. why not? the odds of ever having to use a gun in anger on these city streets are already pretty low... but we all prepare "for the worst" by carrying firearms. i don't think going ahead and preparing yourself for the real "worst"- anything up to and including an all-out blood-bath- is detrimental in any way.
Carry a damned briefcase full of mags, if you want, as long as you carry the sidearm on your person.
An untucked button down will hide pretty much anything and won't usually look out of place or sloppy depending on the shirt and how you wear it. You might want to consider carrying less shit though. 1 extra mag and a flashlight are probably more than enough.
I agree 100%. Button downs, especially the "rumpled" look popular with preppy looking college guys, do a GREAT job of hiding a gun. Get something a size larger than usual, in plad, with darker colors, and on the rare occasion that you do print, the pattern will do a good job of breaking it up. Also, the fact that it's a popular style will help you blend in as the gray man, a very good thing when carrying a gun, especially in non-permissive anti-gun states where carry is an oddity and likely to stampede the sheep. Plus, never underestimate the ignorance of soccer moms. One time I was on my way to the range with a duty-style holster and a full size gun, had to run into Home Depot, and just covered it with my t-shirt. No one even looked twice at the ridiculous bulge on my hip. While this wouldn't pass close scrutiny, and I wouldn't advise it at all, keep in mind that pretty much only shooters (LE or not), and people who have been arrested a lot and know how to spot a cop or someone with a gun pay attention to these things.
I like one extra mag, just because I've had a couple of times where I bump my mag release against something, and realize later that my mag isn't seated, but any more than that not only is it hard to conceal, but you might have to explain to the jury why you need that many bullets just to run to the store. Also, some outside of the box thinking on your accessories can help. I carry my flashlight in my back left pocket, on the left side, right along side my wallet--no printing or weight on the belt, the wallet holds it vertical, and since it's on the outside edge of something I sit on anyway, it doesn't get in the way.
Congrats on the permit and good luck on finding the perfect method (or as close as you can get to it, since we're all still looking) for you.
Magic_Salad0892
08-10-10, 05:48
if i pop the upper off, my SBR fits in my brief case perfectly. and si, i have carried it that way before, for special occasions. :secret:
Is that legal as long as the gun is broken down?
I have a backpack that I carry almost everywhere....
What is your purpose for carrying a weapon... Self-defense? You should carry the way you train... and train the way you carry... You gonna train with a bag... what does that look like...??? Just switching which hand or shoulder is carrying the bag moves the weapon into a different access position.
Try carrying your empty bag for a while and see how you like it... try digging in and pulling something out -- fast... Will that gun be holstered inside the bag? If so, removal from the holster could be a two-hand affair. If not, an exposed trigger is a major risk for an ND. As a primary solution for an on-demand defensive weapon a bag doesn't make much practical sense... In the wrong situation it might even get you hurt or killed...
Any thoughts?
Yes. If it's not on you, it's not with you.
Do you really want to carry a gun?
I'd go ahead and go with the majority of saying
A) Carry on your person
B) If you're not, carry a spare gun on your person.
You need a gun on your person, when you sit down in a restaurant you're going to forget and do what's comfortable, take the bag off and set it down beside you.
Also, getting into the bag and getting to your weapons is unrealistic, or getting to them and trying to grasp a spare magazine, it's just not a good idea, IMHO.
Also what if somebody tries to grab your bag? You're going to be playing tug of war (if they don't just snatch it and run off without you being aware of it) for your gun.
I also absolutely think you need to carry spare magazines. I carry two.
I've carried before with just the gun with no spare magazines, I did that once and just felt so paranoid I was going to run into 2 or 3 guys and know I needed a spare mag.
I'll tell you this, you get used to carrying, it just takes time.
Maybe consider a pocket pistol such as an LCR, LCP, or S&W Airweight in .357 Magnum.
YMMV.
I thought I wanted an LCP as a backup, until I fired one... wasn't exactly impressed, but then again, it is a backup.
desertdisciple
09-05-10, 17:40
Obviously, echoing a lot of what's already been said...
After throwing away too much cash, on high end department store belts...
I FINALLY REALIZED quality leather IS NOT the same as quality GUN LEATHER.
Picked up a Galco Belt @ www.opticsplanet.com
After a belt that fits, for IWB, finding the holster, comfortable FOR ME, took some time & more $.
*If you have friends w/ the obligatory "holster drawer" - hopefully, getting a loaner to check "real world comfort" is possible.
(Sadly, one I learned AFTER collecting a drawer full of holsters that didn't work--borrowed a Milt Sparks Watch Six)
Personal Comfort of Milt Sparks prompted me to order the VMII, w/ Shark Trim, for my G23.
(carries comfortably 8-10 hours a day).
*Recently added my 340PD, in an ankle glove, as BUG or as primary, IF clothing requires.
Amazing holsters, tremendous carry ideas/options...still come back to personal comfort.
*Carrying extra mags or other gear, off my person...sure... Though keeping my weapons, exclusively, in my control...is not negotiable*
Alpha Sierra
09-05-10, 19:12
This is how easy it is to fully and totally conceal a full size fighting pistol and two extra magazines
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp290/JRossy/guns/DSC01148.jpg
http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp290/JRossy/guns/DSC01150.jpg
Is that legal as long as the gun is broken down?
I have a backpack that I carry almost everywhere....
off the top of my head, i can think of no ORS that even addresses carrying rifles, let alone prohibiting it. but i doubt breaking it down would change anything- you can't break down most rifles to put them in rifle cases. i don't think an AR in a briefcase would be any different.
I would not worry about the cop. If you have a permit sounds like you're GTG. I would not suggest off body carry. You are plenty big enough to carry concealed. Honestly if you can not figure out how to make it work properly don't do it.
This is not a game but serious business. You need to maintain control of your weapon 110% of the time.You will not be able to do that with the bag like you can with a holster unless you wear the bag. Try a fanny pack. You will get some funny looks if you wear a messenger bag 24/7. Do it right or do not do it.
desertdisciple
09-06-10, 02:45
This is not a game but serious business. You need to maintain control of your weapon 110% of the time.You will not be able to do that with the bag like you can with a holster unless you wear the bag. Try a fanny pack. You will get some funny looks if you wear a messenger bag 24/7. Do it right or do not do it.
AMEN! ...What he said!
(though the fanny pack could bring the funny looks, too)...I'm just sayin'...
I have Galco's smallest fanny pack, it holds a Jframe well. It would probably hold a Clock 26/27 well too. I've not used it in years but have used it a few times.
desertdisciple
09-06-10, 14:34
I have Galco's smallest fanny pack, it holds a Jframe well. It would probably hold a Clock 26/27 well too. I've not used it in years but have used it a few times.
How do you keep from folks knowing it's a holster...Or, where we live, thinkin' you're a snow bird? :happy:
It is really small if I can find it I will take a photo I have not seen it in a few years! I used to wear it when I went to the gym or ran, don't do that so much any more! It really does not look like a holster it is not much bigger than a J-Frame.
desertdisciple
09-06-10, 19:46
It is really small if I can find it I will take a photo I have not seen it in a few years! I used to wear it when I went to the gym or ran, don't do that so much any more! It really does not look like a holster it is not much bigger than a J-Frame.
guess it would depend on one's usual wardrobe or specific activity.
For my usual, if a case is that small...340 in a pocket holster or ankle glove is easier to "blend".
*The "extras" are doable on belt, in laptop case, or vehicle...
(but that's just my .02 for where/how I live)
Guess it comes back to ALWAYS having access/control of the weapon...& personal comfort/situation.
Stay Safe & GLOCK ON! :cool:
Mitchell, Esq.
09-07-10, 12:06
So enough about me, here's the question:
Say I walk into a crowded public area and a cop gets suspicious (for whatever reason - "why" and "what" isn't the point) and asks to see inside the bag. Inside, he finds a loaded pistol and four additional magazines.
Assuming I show him my carry permit, is this any more of a liability than simply carrying concealed on one's person? Logically and functionally, they both serve the same purpose, but the idea of someone carrying an "arsenal" in their bag compared to concealing a holstered pistol might potentially be even more politically incorrect.
Any thoughts?
My first thought is why are you thinking about excercising your 2nd amendment rights when you don't know your 4th amendment rights?
The answer to a cop asking to search your bag is "NO."
If he has probable cause to search your belongings, he wouldn't be asking.
my new setup is a G26 AIWB and my 17 in my bag with an extra 19 round mag
And I carry my bag EVERYWHERE!
Chris
My .02 carrying concealed;
I'm 5'10" 140 (nother skinny guy). I've carried a Glock 22, 27, USP .40, Kimber Ultra Carry, and 5" 1911's. All on waistband between 3 and 5. Inside and outside w/b depending on clothes, activity, etc. With and on rare occasion without a holster IWB.
I've used a bag in two settings. While my kid was still attached to my hip, I used a small bail out bag as a "tactical diaper bag" which had a hidden velcro compartment where I'd throw a full size gun. This was SECONDARY to an ankle gun. For the reasons above, it's just not practical to draw from a bag (at least not for me). The idea for me was to get somewhere safe, behind cover, fighting my way out or to cover with the ankle gun if necessary, then to defend the kid/our position with the fullsize. With the kid in tow, she was prioirty one, take it or leave it.
I am a cyclist...think Lance Armstrong with chicken legs...hard to conceal in spandex. In that case, I use a Blackhawk fanny pack with whatever I put in there, usually a Glock 27 and full size mag. It's not *that* unusual to see road cyclists with some sort of bag worn around back. Obviously the idea isn't fast draw, but it's better than nothing. I'd hate to get jacked for a $3500 bike.
Carry on your person first, in a bag second and only if you have to. My opinion.
On being searched...and this comes from a cop (me). First, you've done something to draw (my) attention if you're being asked to have your bag searched. A flat out "no" is going to get draw every ounce of scrutiny me or any of my partners can conjure. Hey, it is what it is, right or wrong, I'll leave it there.
You should have been asked to present your ID if your being asked to consent to a search, ALWAYS present your CCW/CHL/whatever with your ID/DL, AND advise whether or not you are carrying.
"Here's my ID and my CHL, officer, I do have my weapon on me."
or
"Before I reach for anything, you should know I have my CHL and I am armed"
Then follow instructions. I'm in Texas, we expect a lot of people to be armed, and we consider them the good folks, in general. There's always a knucklehead, but by and large we (and by that I mean me and most of my colleagues) will generally move on. Caveat emptor, some cops are knuckleheads, too.
FWIW.
You should have been asked to present your ID if your being asked to consent to a search, ALWAYS present your CCW/CHL/whatever with your ID/DL, AND advise whether or not you are carrying.
"Here's my ID and my CHL, officer, I do have my weapon on me."
or
"Before I reach for anything, you should know I have my CHL and I am armed"
Then follow instructions. I'm in Texas, we expect a lot of people to be armed, and we consider them the good folks, in general. There's always a knucklehead, but by and large we (and by that I mean me and most of my colleagues) will generally move on. Caveat emptor, some cops are knuckleheads, too.
FWIW.
this is all fine and well, except that you're suggesting people hand you their 4th amendment. i'm sure this is how you, as an LEO, would prefer it to be. as a non LEO who is very attached to his rights, and rightfully mistrusts authority, as every American who knows his history should, i'd prefer to refuse to disclose anything about what i may or may not have concealed.
what difference does it make to you? i'm a law-abiding citizen, not required to disclose in my state. i carry on about my peaceful business, whether you stop me or not, whether you know i have a gun or not. so how can it make one iota of a difference whether you know i have a gun? the only difference it's ever made to me has been whether or not i end up sitting there with my hands hanging out the window in an awkward position, in the rain, getting my shirtsleeves and truck interior soaked, like a jackass.
yes, this is a somewhat adversarial post, but it's still an honest question- what difference does it make?
Militant83
09-07-10, 14:04
For me carrying on my body is the only way to go. There are too unknown factors that can make your situation worse if you decide to carry in some sort of bag. More than likely if you are going to have to use your sidearm to defend yourself its going to be in close quarters. unless you have trained drawing your pistol from a backpack or bag of some sort on a daily basis and you have some ninja fast skills, more than likely you will come out of this encounter dead or seriously injured. Second reason why not to use a bag of some sort, what happens if it gets stolen or you set it down and for some reason forget about it. And now your pistol and all the ammunition ends up in the wrong hands or worst yet a kids hands. And your gun is either used in some sort of crime or an uneducated kids ends up killing himself or another kid while playing with it. All in all carrying on ones self gives you more control and accountability of your firearm.
desertdisciple
09-07-10, 15:51
another CCW note...
Before Arizona passed Constitutional Carry (if one legally owns, they may legally conceal, no permit required)...the laws required a party who was a CCW permit holder to not have concealed weapons, where easily accessible by others.
(basically, if concealed...in a vehicle or wherever, even members of my family shouldn't have ready access)
*Granted, that was mainly in a vehicle setting & as long as in a holster (or case), technically not concealed.
All the legal-ese tended to be convaluted & subject to interpretation--& if ever came into question, may depend on the perspective of an individual officer.
*So, to make it easy to interpret, I just made sure NO one had access but me!
Though my interaction with Law Enforcement in AZ, has always been very pleasant...I'm very glad Constitutional Carry passed & if I choose to arm one of my family members... Even older kids, the laws are on our side to allow us to defend our safety!
God bless Arizona & other gun friendly states/leaders!
:thank_you2:
*Regardless of what the leter of the law allows, I still choose to have control over my weapons...
"what difference does it make to you? i'm a law-abiding citizen, not required to disclose in my state. i carry on about my peaceful business, whether you stop me or not, whether you know i have a gun or not. so how can it make one iota of a difference whether you know i have a gun? the only difference it's ever made to me has been whether or not i end up sitting there with my hands hanging out the window in an awkward position, in the rain, getting my shirtsleeves and truck interior soaked, like a jackass."
The difference it makes to me is it's a courtesy I'm likely to extend back to you by NOT writing the ticket or searching the aforementioned bag.
Alternatively, it should make a difference to you:
Case 1 was an off duty deputy in plain clothes, personal vehicle. Suspicious vehicle investigation. Deputy doesn't badge us, or verbally identify. When he reaches for ID in his back right pocket, cover officer sees/recognizes his IWB holster and part of the gun. Cover officer yells GUN, deputy gets a Glock in his face and subsequently a mouthfull of pavement and two new silver bracelets before it got sorted out.
Case 2 was a CHL'ee invloved in an accident. Officers arrive and same story, he didn't say anything and the wind caught his shirt exposing his gun...a three officer pig-pile later, which also included a pair of handcuffs and a facefull of asphalt, we learned too late he had his CHL, but neglected to mention it.
Now in both cases the handcuffs came off, eventually, but it that something you want to go through, or even risk?
So, no I'm not advocating anyone "hand me their 4th amendment," I am offering an alternative to saying nothing and providing first hand experience at the results that path [I]may[I] yield. Don't let an officer find or see the gun without telling him beforehand, it gets ugly from there. I have yet to see a complaint go anywhere but the "round file" from anyone who failed to mention the possession of a firearm, legal or otherwise, and got handled before it was disclosed.
YMMV but here in TX cops go home at the end of shift if we can help it. We will do what we have to, to a cop or civilian, to be safe, as evidenced.
BKB by all means do what you feel it right, I wanted the OP to hear another perspective.
Alpha Sierra
09-07-10, 19:00
We will do what we have to, to a cop or civilian, to be safe, as evidenced.
Nice.........:rolleyes:
"what difference does it make to you? i'm a law-abiding citizen, not required to disclose in my state. i carry on about my peaceful business, whether you stop me or not, whether you know i have a gun or not. so how can it make one iota of a difference whether you know i have a gun? the only difference it's ever made to me has been whether or not i end up sitting there with my hands hanging out the window in an awkward position, in the rain, getting my shirtsleeves and truck interior soaked, like a jackass."
The difference it makes to me is it's a courtesy I'm likely to extend back to you by NOT writing the ticket or searching the aforementioned bag.
Alternatively, it should make a difference to you:
Case 1 was an off duty deputy in plain clothes, personal vehicle. Suspicious vehicle investigation. Deputy doesn't badge us, or verbally identify. When he reaches for ID in his back right pocket, cover officer sees/recognizes his IWB holster and part of the gun. Cover officer yells GUN, deputy gets a Glock in his face and subsequently a mouthfull of pavement and two new silver bracelets before it got sorted out.
Case 2 was a CHL'ee invloved in an accident. Officers arrive and same story, he didn't say anything and the wind caught his shirt exposing his gun...a three officer pig-pile later, which also included a pair of handcuffs and a facefull of asphalt, we learned too late he had his CHL, but neglected to mention it.
Now in both cases the handcuffs came off, eventually, but it that something you want to go through, or even risk?
So, no I'm not advocating anyone "hand me their 4th amendment," I am offering an alternative to saying nothing and providing first hand experience at the results that path [I]may[I] yield. Don't let an officer find or see the gun without telling him beforehand, it gets ugly from there. I have yet to see a complaint go anywhere but the "round file" from anyone who failed to mention the possession of a firearm, legal or otherwise, and got handled before it was disclosed.
YMMV but here in TX cops go home at the end of shift if we can help it. We will do what we have to, to a cop or civilian, to be safe, as evidenced.
BKB by all means do what you feel it right, I wanted the OP to hear another perspective.
wow.. couple of perfect examples of how Eric Scotts get shot up.
lets go with the second example, since i'm not an off-duty LEO and that's not what we're talking about. dude gets into a traffic accident... cop sees he has a gun on his hip.
option 1: the dogpile you describe
option 2: "i see you're packing too. you've got your CHP, right?"
hhhhmmmmmmmmm.......................
I am with you Esq. Smile, be polite and say No. I am still amazed at how many criminals who will speak to me and will confess to serious crimes or let me search their vehicles when they know there is stuff there, usually drugs, that will jam them up.
desertdisciple
09-07-10, 21:48
I am with you Esq. Smile, be polite and say No. I am still amazed at how many criminals who will speak to me and will confess to serious crimes or let me search their vehicles when they know there is stuff there, usually drugs, that will jam them up.
Respect always seems to go a long way...(No, not throwing away the Constitution...Just courtesy... All the cops I've ever met, were just people, too...)
-- Too bad, I didn't figure that "respect/courtesy" thing out, "back in the day"--when I WAY over did the "liquid courage" and got to experience what fun Pepper Spray can be!
-- Just glad I didn't own firearms when I was way younger are FAR MORE STUPID.
*Interestingly enough, I've seen people excercise their constitutional rights, demonstrating against what they felt wasn't right (Border Patrol check points, immunization requirements, etc.) and some of the ones that I thought were "over the top" weren't so, because of WHAT they said...rather it was HOW they said it, which made what could have been a valid point (in some cases), lose all credibility because of their delivery of information.
AUTHENTIC RESPECT & COURTESY...should be TWO WAYS...
(Not just extended to "Joe-Taxpayer" OR "Johnny Law")
*Then again, to some degree... I guess the Constitution allows us to choose...
I just prefer, what I read in one of my favorite books, "Do to others as you would have them do to you."
Amen Brother! One thing we all need to remember is the awesome responsibility and power we have with the weapons we own and carry. Our attitudes can get us into or keep us out of trouble. OP that's why I was so kurt about finding a way to carry and conceal your weapon. You can do it. It is clearly a lifestyle choice and change. Just don't do it hal ass, do it right.
Case 2 was a CHL'ee invloved in an accident. Officers arrive and same story, he didn't say anything and the wind caught his shirt exposing his gun...a three officer pig-pile later, which also included a pair of handcuffs and a facefull of asphalt, we learned too late he had his CHL, but neglected to mention it.
Was there something about that guy's appearance, demeanor, actions, minutiae of event, etc, that justified a "three officer pig-pile", merely for the presence of a gun?
If I was part of a story like that, I'd be too embarrassed to tell it.
What happens to people that open carry?
desertdisciple
09-07-10, 23:18
What happens to people that open carry?
In The People's Republic of California...Legal Open Carry will, according to the news video, get ya spread-eagle & frisked.
(of course, in Kalifornia, to legally open carry, the pistol must be UNloaded)
*hold on...I'll return fire, just as soon as I load a mag...(i think I've got enough cash to pay the fine for discharging a firearm)*
:shout:
Hoplophobia is a helluva drug.
desertdisciple
09-07-10, 23:42
Hoplophobia is a helluva drug.
It REALLY kicks in when combined w/ "medical marijuana"
:alcoholic:
Skintop, open carry is prohibited in TX. Plainclothes LEO's generally wear the badge right next to the gun.
RE: the guy in the accident, yeah there's more to it, for brevity I condensed. When we got there the other party alleged he threatened to get his gun and shoot them, thus our focus shifted to him. He was a good foot taller and 100 lbs bigger than any of us, and we tried the nice guy approach, "Hey do you have a gun on your or in your car?" Reply was various iterations of, "No, they're lying" The shirt lifts, we see his holster, issue verbal commands, he is passive non compliant and verbally challenging us, an officer flanked and took him down, we cuffed him up.
Alpha Sierra, BK et al., however I may have miscommunicated, I was simply trying to illustrate that sometimes this crap happens, even to other LEO's. I hate to see this happen to the good guys, of which armed citizens are a part of IMHO, especially since it's preventable.
Again it's about risk mitigation. Anybody with a gun who is trying to hide it, by act or OMISSION, poses a potentially lethal threat to me. I can't afford to assume anyone is on the up and up, so if you tell me up front whats up, it goes a long, long way with me, and everyone I've worked with that I can think of.
:blink:
I think there is a big difference between the accident scenario in which a witness indicates the other party expressly threatened the use of a weapon and the original suggestion that a citizen automatically consent to a search upon request. In the accident scenario, clearly reasonable suspicion exists to search. Walking up to someone as part of a consensual contact and expecting consent is another thing.
I also take issue with the idea that discretionary decisions (ticket vs. warning) would turn on my consent and waiver of constitutional rights. I am sure it happens and I am sure that complaints thereabout are round-filed, but that does not make it right. Maybe it is not wrong, but I would not offer it up like it is a fair or acceptable bargain.
I think there is a big difference between the accident scenario in which a witness indicates the other party expressly threatened the use of a weapon and the original suggestion that a citizen automatically consent to a search upon request. In the accident scenario, clearly reasonable suspicion exists to search. Walking up to someone as part of a consensual contact and expecting consent is another thing.
Okay, thanks Spartan, you just turned the light on over my head!Now I see why my point is being misinterpreted.
I didn't intend my examples to relate to the consent search thing at all...as far as that goes, do what you feel is right. As others have said, politeness will go a long way. Yeah, absolutely decline if you don't want to be searched. Also, ask the officer if you are free to leave when you feel like you've had enough of your time taken up. Personally, it arouses suspicion, but there comes a point where my authority ends.
I gave the examples to illustrate two experiences I've encountered in which an armed citizen and a LEO had opportunity to inform us they were armed and did not...maybe thinking we'd never find or see their piece. It didn't work out that way, so I was trying (unsuccessfully it seems) to stress the OP and anyone else should consider that when deciding NOT to disclose that information to a LEO, whether he's asking for consent or working an accident or pulling you over.
I also take issue with the idea that discretionary decisions (ticket vs. warning) would turn on my consent and waiver of constitutional rights. I am sure it happens and I am sure that complaints thereabout are round-filed, but that does not make it right. Maybe it is not wrong, but I would not offer it up like it is a fair or acceptable bargain.
The way it works in my AOA, the ticket, warning, whatever is done before we even ask consent. ID's are returned, the contact is completed, "Okay, you're free to go...can I ask one more question, would you mind if I searched xyz?" The idea being there's no "duress" by retaining the persons property (ID), or that they haven's signed the promise to appear, and are thereby not free to leave.
Again, personally when someone I've stopped or contacted tells me they have their CHL and are armed, IN GENERAL, I think, "Ok, this is one of the good guys, I won't waste my time and I'll go look for a bad guy."
The complaints in question were in regards to citizens being manhandled when firearms were discovered on their person, nothing at all to do with consent searches, etc.
Sorry for all the confusion, I'll work on articulating my thoughts a lot more clearly!:moil:
The way we teach and perform consent searches is we issue the ticket or warning and tell the person they are free to leave. Once they accnowledge that we ask for consent. If we have PC we still ask and inform them if they refuse we will impound their vehicle and apply for a search warrant. In VT it is called the Savva decesion and the court has spelled out this is what were expected to do. It works pretty well for every one.
jklaughrey
09-08-10, 12:04
Vermont, I thought you all were nice and happy go lucky. LOL, I would suppose your PC is solid and airtight for the ability to impound a vehicle. Here in WA we just play it by ear so to speak. Most citizen's are unknowing of what their rights actually are in most cases, esp a traffic stop.
PS, I don't consider anything west of Yakima part of my WA. Those western WA guys do whatever they want, us E. WA folks are more nice and prettier too!
ghettomedic
09-08-10, 12:19
Here in NC we don't have a choice; we are required to notify any LEO we encounter that we are carrying concealed.
From the back of my CHP:
"It is unlawful to carry a concealed handgun without this permit and valid identification in your possession OR TO FAIL TO DISCLOSE TO ANY LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER THAT YOU ARE CARRYING A CONCEALED HANDGUN."
FWIW, I've taken this to mean LEOs I have "professional contact" with. I always inform when pulled over or otherwise involved in a conversation about "official business", but I don't feel required to tell the cops at my favorite breakfast place about my gun when I make small talk at the register. YMMV.
FWIW, I've taken this to mean LEOs I have "professional contact" with. I always inform when pulled over or otherwise involved in a conversation about "official business", but I don't feel required to tell the cops at my favorite breakfast place about my gun when I make small talk at the register. YMMV.
fudge that, man- you're in straight up clear violation. you and everyone else with a gun in NC should take that law to heart, and exercise it with gusto. especially at the IHOP. and especially if there are a lot of other people around.
ghettomedic
09-08-10, 12:40
fudge that, man- you're in straight up clear violation. you and everyone else with a gun in NC should take that law to heart, and exercise it with gusto. especially at the IHOP. and especially if there are a lot of other people around.
You're right. Maybe if a group of us get together we can have some t-shirts made or something.
You're right. Maybe if a group of us get together we can have some t-shirts made or something.
you should just put your CHL on a chain around your neck, or keep it in a shirt pocket or other easily accessable place, so you can whip it right out at a moment's notice and state, clearly, loudly, "officer! i am packing a gun, and 110% compliant with NC law!" if everyone was 110% compliant, i suspect the law would change pretty quick.
Yes we only mention impounding if we have PC otherwise we just ask with out mention of the warrant. We have little cards we read and they sign
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