View Full Version : Closer look at the SIG 516...Still not impressed
variablebinary
08-06-10, 01:06
I just cant muster any enthusiasm for this thing, but here is better, closer look at the SIG 516.
I have yet to hear why anyone should get a SIG 516 over an MRP.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/516.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3586a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3589.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3588.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3593.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3596.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3600.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3603.jpg
I sent SIG an email asking some very pointed questions. They have yet to respond.
deadduck357
08-06-10, 03:30
Looks good, well other than the purple riser. Can't tell from the pics, do you know if top of the gas block and the quadrail are on the same plane ? The pics from SHOT and SIGSauers web site it is not. After the runaround I had with my SIG556 Classic I think I'm going to sit this one out for awhile.
deadduck357
08-06-10, 03:34
I sent SIG an email asking some very pointed questions. They have yet to respond.
Yep thats about right. Not knocking SIGs products as I am very pleased with my pistols, but the BS I got with my 556.
Failure2Stop
08-06-10, 08:01
Piston bandwagon...all aboard!
cool looking tail of carrier, looks water drain and fouling friendly.
sling mount on lower looks like it'd be in the way of both charging and safety, awesome.
odd barrel profile
On the plus side, at least they had the brains to stick Magpul MOEs on there. ;)
Piston bandwagon...all aboard!
Next stop, carrier tilt?
arizonaranchman
08-06-10, 09:39
I do like that built-in QD socket for one-point slings. Otherwise doesn't do anything for me.
dwhitehorne
08-06-10, 09:54
cool looking tail of carrier, looks water drain and fouling friendly.
The carrier looks identical to my LWRC, finish and everything. I wonder. David
welchtactical
08-06-10, 10:19
That IS a LWRC bolt. I have hear there is already some legal WTFs over that. I'll stick with my LWRCs.
Littlelebowski
08-06-10, 10:46
That IS a LWRC bolt. I have hear there is already some legal WTFs over that. I'll stick with my LWRCs.
Is it an illegal copy or a licensed copy or an actual LWRC bolt?
Another dumbass move by Sig, regardless on the 516.
It does have an H-buffer and what appears to be a milspec receiver extension tube. That's at least two check marks for "The Chart."
Also, it does look like the top of the gas block and rail/upper receiver are all same-plane.
KingsideRook
08-06-10, 14:33
Is it an illegal copy or a licensed copy or an actual LWRC bolt?
Another dumbass move by Sig, regardless on the 516.
Ok, the first time this issue surfaced, it was because SIG's 516 showed up in American Rifleman, with pictures of what was clearly an LWRC bolt and bolt carrier. LWRC took the thread down shortly after confirming that it looked like SIG had just straight up bought a Bolt carrier from LWRC, and had submitted the 516 to a major publication for review - with their bolt carrier in it. If you google LWRC and Sig 516, I'm sure you can find Google's cache of the original thread.
Shortly thereafter, LWRC filed suit against SIG.
This bolt carrier, in these pictures, appears to be a non-LWRC carrier, but the features do appear to be similar -fluted carrier boss, tombstone piston interface, etc.
I have no affiliation with LWRC or SIG, for the record, I just followed this news carefully, because I was pretty aghast as the stunt SIG had pulled.
benthughes
08-06-10, 14:55
I have to mirror the response in that I love my Sig handguns but their ARs do nothing for me. I owned a Sig 556 and couldn't sell that thing fast enough. Proprietary parts galore and heavy for what it was. I can appreciate the design though as the 556 was more a copy or the original Sig AR platform.... just a bastard child of it. If you're going to do a piston rifle properly you have to depart from the Stoner design ie. AK-47, FAL, original Sig. Now we have another gas piston rifle based on a design that wasn't meant to be piston driven..... stop it !!! Also, I don't see the appeal in a rifle where I can't buy replacement parts easily.
I believe Eugene Stoner was working with Knights Armament to continue refining the development of the AR-15 which is where the SR-15 came from. He never saw the need for a piston to run the gun efficiently.
Are you able to use standard mil-spec parts on this rifle ( besides the bolt/carrier and gas system)?
I have to mirror the response in that I love my Sig handguns but their ARs do nothing for me. I owned a Sig 556 and couldn't sell that thing fast enough. Proprietary parts galore and heavy for what it was. I can appreciate the design though as the 556 was more a copy or the original Sig AR platform.... just a bastard child of it. If you're going to do a piston rifle properly you have to depart from the Stoner design ie. AK-47, FAL, original Sig. Now we have another gas piston rifle based on a design that wasn't meant to be piston driven..... stop it !!! Also, I don't see the appeal in a rifle where I can't buy replacement parts easily.
I believe Eugene Stoner was working with Knights Armament to continue refining the development of the AR-15 which is where the SR-15 came from. He never saw the need for a piston to run the gun efficiently.
Are you able to use standard mil-spec parts on this rifle ( besides the bolt/carrier and gas system)?
A few days ago the local shop asked me if I wanted to take some photos of the Sig 516. I was like sure, not a problem. Being critical of Sig products since its "Kimberization" I remember not too long ago this was the company that screwed up building a 1911....................
The above pictures that the OP posted are the ones that I took.
That said I was actually pretty impressed with my particular sample. Fit and finish were nice. The sling swivels on the receiver as well as the adjustable gas block were a nice touch. The lower receiver is standard as shown and will take your regular parts kits. I am not sure if the receiver extension was mil-spec or commercial. The upper receiver and quad rail "go-together" as shown in the pictures above but I dont think there is anything that will not allow you to change out parts as long as it is compatible with the piston system.
The piston system looks like an Adam Arms set-up. I was only at the shop for a short period of time so I did not get a chance to take apart the piston. The gun looks well made, is light for a piston system and set up nicely. I owned a LWRCI M6A2 and dumped it to go back to the traditional DI system. The one thing I did not like about the LWRCI was the quad rail and the weight. Over all is was an excellent rifle and was a close second behind my Noveske in terms of accuracy.
I personally think that Sig did a good job on this rifle however I do not agree with them using the LWRCI BCG if they did not license that particular part from them.
The finish was excellent, the upper and lower receiver were tight the rifle was not too heavy and it came with a sling, the QD Swivels and a few other goodies. It would have been nice to see them ditch the RDS for a set of nice Troy front and rears.
I have yet to hear why anyone should get a SIG 516 over an MRP.
Completely different price points and the MRP is a monolithic rail.
If I wanted to go piston and could not afford the MRP I would consider the 516. With the Sig you get a little more bang for your buck but with the MRP you get the LMT name and known quality and perhaps a few extra ounces. :laugh:
If female sling sockets are not anti rotation, they are worthless.
platoonDaddy
08-08-10, 18:03
If female sling sockets are not anti rotation, they are worthless.
Knew a lady like that and then I said "I do!" What a worthless mistake!
OUT
Is it an illegal copy or a licensed copy or an actual LWRC bolt?
Another dumbass move by Sig, regardless on the 516.
i think you are right about lwrc -real name of the parent company is matech the maker of them sights -watch the video/media part of their web site --what's in the bed of the gun world is wild and woolly under covers !
Darren from LWRC stated several days ago on AR15.com that the carrier design had not been licensed.
Next stop, carrier tilt?
Awesome. I really want that sweet T1 clone too. :dance3:
I picked one up the other day for 1348.00 plus tax.
Hopefully shooting it tomorrow.
deadduck357
08-16-10, 18:56
I picked one up the other day for 1348.00 plus tax.
Hopefully shooting it tomorrow.
Any pics ?
I really like how they've secured the handguard into the receiver with that kind of touge and grove joint that you can see from the top view. It looks very secure, are there any other companies doing that on their guns?
I really like how they've secured the handguard into the receiver with that kind of touge and grove joint that you can see from the top view. It looks very secure, are there any other companies doing that on their guns?
Who gives a damn? Its not a real monolith and cannot be bridged with an optic.
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy60/whitey615/DSC08059.jpg
um...this does nothing for me, it's just a piston Ar that says SIG, if I'm going to spend my hard earned money on a piston it will be a LWRC, or HK MR556.
deadduck357
08-17-10, 18:21
Nice whitey, get it to the range and report back, with detailed pics. How about a few pic with the regulator and piston unplugged.
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy60/whitey615/DSC08064.jpg
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy60/whitey615/DSC08066.jpg
I'd rather have a HK416/MR223 .. thats just my opinion
I'd rather have a HK416/MR223 .. thats just my opinion
Yea....me too:)
for what it's worth, i have it on good authority that adams arms have filed an infringement suit also.
I'll stick with the 556 if I want a piston driven gun.
I read on ar15.com someone said that sig has issued a recall on the 516...can anyone verify this?
deadduck357
08-21-10, 20:04
Read that also, if true, not good
Whats weird is there was no explanation of why the recall (???)
I'm really underwhelmed by piston ARs. It feels like a solution looking for a problem. This is just another piston AR.
Sig should have focused on 556 QA instead of jumping into the piston AR market. Aside from the craptastic furniture and spotty QC, the 556 seems decent enough. FD: I only have a few K through mine, and zero class time with it.
I don't see a recall on Sig's product alerts (http://www.sigsauer.com/CustomerService/Product-Alerts.aspx) page.
I would have much rather seen them channel their efforts into a true US 551/552.
I shot the sig today. 220 rounds no hicups. Although the red dot has to go.
Added troy rail guards, KAC vertical grip and a hogue pistol grip.
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy60/whitey615/DSC08109.jpg
Magic_Salad0892
08-30-10, 16:19
This really looks like the most half assed AR ever.
This really looks like the most half assed AR ever.
Have you handled one?
Suwannee Tim
08-30-10, 19:30
It will soon be easier to make a list of companies that don't make ARs than to make a list of companies that do make ARs. Why in the heck didn't SIG focus on the piston gun they already have, the SIG 556? Not that I'm particularly impressed with the SIG 556. I have one and the more I shoot it, the more underwhelmed I am. Credible rifle, yes, something special, no. Same with the Ruger AR, underwhelming. Not that I expected Ruger to introduce an innovative design. What's special about this SIG 516? Nothing I can see.
Magic_Salad0892
08-31-10, 00:02
Have you handled one?
No but have heard reports of nothing but mediocrity. There is nothing about this rifle that stands out. I mean, at least the Ruger has a monolithic Troy rail and sights...
Not that the SR556 is a good rifle...
No but have heard reports of nothing but mediocrity. There is nothing about this rifle that stands out. I mean, at least the Ruger has a monolithic Troy rail and sights...
Not that the SR556 is a good rifle...
Oh I see.. You're probably one of those guys that thinks that a set of 2 thousand dollar golf clubs will make you play better.
It's a great gun for what I use it for and very well made.
I have also fired the 556 and it's also a well made rifle that shoots very well. So maybe you should investigate things before you make unfounded comments.
EzGoingKev
08-31-10, 08:43
Not that I expected Ruger to introduce an innovative design.
Innovative designs are not the hot sellers right now, AR clones are.
Oh I see.. You're probably one of those guys that thinks that a set of 2 thousand dollar golf clubs will make you play better.
It's a great gun for what I use it for and very well made.
I have also fired the 556 and it's also a well made rifle that shoots very well. So maybe you should investigate things before you make unfounded comments.
If the rifle works for you then by all means, rock on brother.
I do however want to ask what your basis of comparison is and what your personal needs are in a defensive firearm (or is this a toy to you?)?
The 516 offers the end user absolutely nothing when compared to other products on the market which is why you hear alot of grumbling in this thread. It is merely another entry into an already saturated market that is quickly becoming heavily diluted with what is widely regarded as being crap.
IF this rifle offered something over say a 6920 or a BCM/DD offering then we could have a healthy discussion as to why its existence makes sense. If all anyone can really say about the rifle is that it looks cool and that they want it well then, i guess thats capitalism and freedom at its finest but this forum doesnt exist to discuss our private purchases. It exists to discuss weapons, their employment and their technical nuances.
I think you're seeing alot of "crapping" in this thread because people that fire alot of rounds each year are still to this date, years later, confused as to why the piston AR came to be. No one to date has proved it to be "better" and most of the subjective notions on the interwebs and in speaking with people on the ground is that they prefer the DI system for ease of PM and the fact that without a doubt NO ONE has produced a piston AR15 that recoils in the same manner as a DI AR.
Just some food for thought!
PS, i HAVE handled a 516 but have not shot it. The machining on the lower seems very nice although im not a fan of integrated QD cups in that location.
If the rifle works for you then by all means, rock on brother.
I do however want to ask what your basis of comparison is and what your personal needs are in a defensive firearm (or is this a toy to you?)?
The 516 offers the end user absolutely nothing when compared to other products on the market which is why you hear alot of grumbling in this thread. It is merely another entry into an already saturated market that is quickly becoming heavily diluted with what is widely regarded as being crap.
IF this rifle offered something over say a 6920 or a BCM/DD offering then we could have a healthy discussion as to why its existence makes sense. If all anyone can really say about the rifle is that it looks cool and that they want it well then, i guess thats capitalism and freedom at its finest but this forum doesnt exist to discuss our private purchases. It exists to discuss weapons, their employment and their technical nuances.
I think you're seeing alot of "crapping" in this thread because people that fire alot of rounds each year are still to this date, years later, confused as to why the piston AR came to be. No one to date has proved it to be "better" and most of the subjective notions on the interwebs and in speaking with people on the ground is that they prefer the DI system for ease of PM and the fact that without a doubt NO ONE has produced a piston AR15 that recoils in the same manner as a DI AR.
Just some food for thought!
PS, i HAVE handled a 516 but have not shot it. The machining on the lower seems very nice although im not a fan of integrated QD cups in that location.
Touche....very well put. Im using this gun for range fun and plinking. Its not used for home defense unless the SHTF. My prior AR was a colt HBAR. I come from the 3 position smallbore competition world and shooting an Anschutz so I like to think I can tell a decent firearm from a pos. I havent fired enough ARs to be able to say one is better than another but I can say that I have no problem puting all my shots from my Sig in the ten ring at 100 yards. And thats good enough for me.
Only time and rounds will tell how well it holds up though.
Suwannee Tim
09-01-10, 14:42
Innovative designs are not the hot sellers right now, AR clones are.
As evinced by the Robinson XCR which I regard as an almost perfect rifle. It seems to get no attention at all.
......people that fire alot of rounds each year are still to this date, years later, confused as to why the piston AR came to be.....
I'm confused about how the direct impingement came to be. Piping hot dirty gas into a precision action is just not the greatest idea Eugene Stoner ever had. It works well enough in most instances and it has some advantages, simplicity, low parts count and perfectly co-axial action which may aid accuracy and control. Funny thing is that when Stoner designed the AR the gas piston above the barrel was well demonstrated as the most effective method of automating a rifle. They say it is hard to argue with success and the AR is certainly successful but the gas piston above the barrel was successful when Stoner did his design. To each his own. I find it peculiar anyone would bemoan the fabulous, free-wheeling innovation we now see in the firearms world generally and in ARs specifiably. Not that a gas piston on an AR is particularly innovative any more. As evinced by the fact that Ruger did it.:D
I just cant muster any enthusiasm for this thing, but here is better, closer look at the SIG 516.
I have yet to hear why anyone should get a SIG 516 over an MRP.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/516.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3586a.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3589.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3588.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3593.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3596.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3600.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v176/forty5r/Sig%20516%20Piston/IMG_3603.jpg
Is that a Magpul CTR stock? (Total Magpul Fanboy!):happy:
Suwannee Tim
09-01-10, 15:01
I have yet to hear why anyone should get a SIG 516 over an MRP.
Because it's a SIG?
I concluded the powers at SIG are utterly tone-deaf when they installed rails on all their pistols. I don't see this "me too" rifle contradicting that conclusion. Another AR. Wowee.
It's almost like Chrysler deciding to make Fords.
As evinced by the Robinson XCR which I regard as an almost perfect rifle. It seems to get no attention at all.
I'm confused about how the direct impingement came to be. Piping hot dirty gas into a precision action is just not the greatest idea Eugene Stoner ever had. It works well enough in most instances and it has some advantages, simplicity, low parts count and perfectly co-axial action which may aid accuracy and control. Funny thing is that when Stoner designed the AR the gas piston above the barrel was well demonstrated as the most effective method of automating a rifle. They say it is hard to argue with success and the AR is certainly successful but the gas piston above the barrel was successful when Stoner did his design. To each his own. I find it peculiar anyone would bemoan the fabulous, free-wheeling innovation we now see in the firearms world generally and in ARs specifiably. Not that a gas piston on an AR is particularly innovative any more. As evinced by the fact that Ruger did it.:D
Im not sure exactly what the problem is with piping hot dirty gas into the action? Go look at 87GN's findings, chamber temperatures remain largely the same between piston and DI style AR15's...
Guns get dirty, period, end of story, even Gas piston designs, its an inevitability when we are dealing with explosives.
EDIT: Gotta stay on topic here. Anyone have any info about the recall on this particular rifle?
Suwannee Tim
09-01-10, 18:20
The exact problem piping hot dirty gas into the action is the action gets hot and dirty. Of course all guns get dirty but DI guns get dirty faster and piston gun actions don't get nearly so hot. I was rebutting an assertion that the mere existence of piston guns is nonsensical. I find the existence of piston guns less amazing than the existence of DI guns. Pray thee tell, what is 87GN? I know I'm opening myself to attack by asking this question but I have already demonstrated my heresy by questioning DI so what the heck. My experience in the matter is limited to about 5K rounds through an LMT, about half through a piston upper and the other half through a DI upper. That's enough to persuade me that DI is not without it's faults.
Tim,
We are having a discussion, we arent attacking each other.
87GN is a member here, do a member search and check out some of his posts. Very informative stuff.
Ultimately there is no perfect system so you've got to pick and choose what shortcomings you want to live with.
For me, the increased recoil impulse, increased amount of parts and the overall unreliability of the Piston systems that ive handled have led me to stick with DI uppers.
To each their own. :)
Suwannee Tim
09-01-10, 20:00
I know I'm opening myself to attack....
....we arent attacking each other.
I wasn't referring to you personally Magsz but some folks do take this personally and they get hot when questioned or challenged. I thought maybe 87GN was some huge scientific study the AR homeboys carry around like a preacher carries a Bible.
I think it looks like shit. Sigs just do absolutely nothing for me. Its just another piston gun. Ill stick with my LWRC. I think there the cleanest and offer the best parts out of any AR
I think it looks like shit. Sigs just do absolutely nothing for me. Its just another piston gun. Ill stick with my LWRC. I think there the cleanest and offer the best parts out of any AR
LOL... So well spoken.
Magic_Salad0892
09-06-10, 01:06
I think it looks like shit. Sigs just do absolutely nothing for me. Its just another piston gun. Ill stick with my LWRC. I think there the cleanest and offer the best parts out of any AR
You're on the right track, maybe not the absolute best.
I'd ****in' love to run a KAC E3 with an LWRCi 14.5'' midlength barrel though.
variablebinary
09-06-10, 02:55
Street price on these are in the $1400 range
Too expensive for what you get. That's a well spec'ed DI AR15, or an LMT MRP.
No thanks. SIG really should stop messing around with these half assed endeavors and just release a SG551
GermanSynergy
09-06-10, 12:57
Does it include the super cool T-1 clone? :fie:
Chalk this one up to a carbine that will never see the inside of my safe.
SuppressingFire
09-06-10, 18:36
Whitey, what are your thoughts about shooting the piston, compared to a DI AR? I've handled the 556. There's something about the feel of it that I like but I can see visually that it is a little clunky looking compared to my AR's. Good luck ith yours, I'd like to know more about it, is there a review anywhere?
Whitey, what are your thoughts about shooting the piston, compared to a DI AR? I've handled the 556. There's something about the feel of it that I like but I can see visually that it is a little clunky looking compared to my AR's. Good luck ith yours, I'd like to know more about it, is there a review anywhere?
Ive had it to the range only once and put a little over 200 rounds through it wiyhout any hic-ups. It seems like a solid gun to me and shot fairly smoothly. The same day I also fired the Ruger sr556. It was definately smoother than the sig but also alot more nose heavy.
I cant really give you a comparison between the sig and my last DI AR which was a Post ban Colt HBAR simply because I hadnt shot it for ten years or so and then sold it about a year ago. I just recently got back into shooting and decided I needed another AR. Ive gotten tons of negative input from both m4carbine and ar15.com but for my needs its perfect.
It feels solid and their is absolutely no play whatsoever between the upper and lower. No, its not a monolithic upper and you cant bridge an optic but I have no need for that. Its not a duty weapon its just for fun.
Oh and Im still not sending it back to Sig untill they get honest with me and tell me the real reason for the "recall". I supposedly have one of three 516s that needs an "elective upgrade". But what Sig doesnt know is that I know one of the other 516 buyers that also was contacted by Sig and they told us both something different as to why our rifles had to be sent back. So we may have a couple of rare birds.
I plan on getting to the range soon with the guy I sold my colt to, so i will better compare the two systems and the way they shoot.
I had the Sig out today and put another 300 rounds through it. It ran great with not a single problem and I ran it alot harder this time out. I also checked for signs of carrier tilt and have found none.
Im still very pleased with the rifle.
Oh and Im still not sending it back to Sig
My buis should be here today.
Sig makes great guns, no doubt about it. I'll stick with my LWRC. IMHO
wolf_walker
09-24-10, 20:50
I don't know how many of you guys are into other types of machines or technology, but this is all perfectly normal, with the piston stuff. Everybody develops something "new", they all do it slightly differently for awhile, with varying levels of success. Time and revenue will pretty well sort things out in a few years. God willing some sort of at least passable standard will arise, but if it's not being used by the gov I wouldn't count no it. Talk junk, by all means, but this is all a necessary part of the process for an industry and machine as a whole. And don't be surprised, if piston AR's die out, that somebody re-invents them later on. It happens every day, in every industry that has to find ways to keep selling the same old thing.
Stay tuned for the next big thing, the direct-gas-impingement AK-47. :D
Suwannee Tim
09-24-10, 21:10
Sig makes great guns, no doubt about it.
I wouldn't go that far. Used to I would have. Then I bought a 226, a 22 kit for the 226, a 229, a 245, a 556, a 556 pistol and a P250 jammamatic since sent down the road. Now, I can't say they make a great gun. They make some great guns, some junk and some in between. Mostly in between. Putting a rail on every pistol they make is the dumbest thing I have ever seen a gun maker do. Well, maybe not the dumbest, but pretty dumb.
Added some Troy sights today...
http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy60/whitey615/34126b02.jpg
Thanks......shoots nice too.
Thanks......shoots nice too.
Whitey,
It's been nearly two years. Do you have any updates on the rifle? Do you still have it? How has it been working for you?
I recently sold it to a friend of mine to fund a colt, but in the time I owned it I had no issues with it.
Funny thing tho...I was at the range last week with the guy I sold it to and it had a fail to fire while he was shooting it. We looked at the primer and it was definately a light strike. It may have been caused by the jp springs in it.
I really liked the gun but I finally saw the "light" and went back to a battle proven DI Colt.
Markasaurus
07-06-12, 08:56
I have to mirror the response in that I love my Sig handguns but their ARs do nothing for me. I owned a Sig 556 and couldn't sell that thing fast enough. Proprietary parts galore and heavy for what it was. I can appreciate the design though as the 556 was more a copy or the original Sig AR platform.... just a bastard child of it. If you're going to do a piston rifle properly you have to depart from the Stoner design ie. AK-47, FAL, original Sig. Now we have another gas piston rifle based on a design that wasn't meant to be piston driven..... stop it !!! Also, I don't see the appeal in a rifle where I can't buy replacement parts easily.
I believe Eugene Stoner was working with Knights Armament to continue refining the development of the AR-15 which is where the SR-15 came from. He never saw the need for a piston to run the gun efficiently.
Are you able to use standard mil-spec parts on this rifle ( besides the bolt/carrier and gas system)? that's because Stoner's background was in lightweight aircraft parts, not small arms. Almost no one has designed an automatic rifle to use a DI system for operation, before our since. You can bet if the Russians thought they could make a battle rifle even simpler and still make it reliable, they would have. But the AK and every auto rifle they ever made uses a piston.
The French FAMAS uses recoil operation and obviously it works. They did not use DI operation-no one else does.
Failure2Stop
07-06-12, 11:01
that's because Stoner's background was in lightweight aircraft parts, not small arms. Almost no one has designed an automatic rifle to use a DI system for operation, before our since. You can bet if the Russians thought they could make a battle rifle even simpler and still make it reliable, they would have. But the AK and every auto rifle they ever made uses a piston.
The French FAMAS uses recoil operation and obviously it works. They did not use DI operation-no one else does.
What does any of that have to do with this thread?
justlikeanyoneelse
07-07-12, 00:28
It was only a matter of time.
What does any of that have to do with this thread?
sinlessorrow
07-07-12, 00:40
What does any of that have to do with this thread?
read between the lines and you shall see the truth.
Reading through this I couldn't believe it when the bump was a legit follow up question AND the OP responded!
Nicely done.
On the Colt, too. :)
One of my complaints with the 516 was the fact that the gas valve became difficult to adjust and/or remove once the valve body was fouled. I see with some interest that SIG has changed the gas block and valve on the 516 to resemble that used on the 716.
The valve on the 716 has lugs rather than threads that hold it in the block. Depressing a detent and rotating the valve 180-degrees frees the lugs from the block and it has been my experience that the 716's valve is easily removed.
I'm glad to see this change to the 516. I'll have to see if I can't find a fair price on one of the new style rifles.
I recently sold it to a friend of mine to fund a colt, but in the time I owned it I had no issues with it.
Funny thing tho...I was at the range last week with the guy I sold it to and it had a fail to fire while he was shooting it. We looked at the primer and it was definately a light strike. It may have been caused by the jp springs in it.
I really liked the gun but I finally saw the "light" and went back to a battle proven DI Colt.
Correct, the light primer strike on steel ammo is due to the JP hammer spring which are made specifically for JP hammers. The instructions with the spring set also state this. I did lots of research before installing the JP reduced power spring kit on my 516 and my friends M&P15. Please notify the guy and tell him that he needs to replace the JP hammer spring with the factory mil spec hammer spring that was shipped with the 516. Only use the JP trigger spring from the spring set if you are not using JP trigger components to avoid light primer strikes.
One of my complaints with the 516 was the fact that the gas valve became difficult to adjust and/or remove once the valve body was fouled. I see with some interest that SIG has changed the gas block and valve on the 516 to resemble that used on the 716.
The valve on the 716 has lugs rather than threads that hold it in the block. Depressing a detent and rotating the valve 180 degrees frees the lugs from the block and it has been my experience that the 716's valve is easily removed.
I'm glad to see this change to the 516. I'll have to see if I can't find a fair price on one of the new style rifles.
I made an inquiry on ARF.com about cleaning the threads over half a year ago also as there is no documentation or recommendation from SIG on how to do so. The recommendations froms the responses mostly were to apply anti-seize on the threads.
I've had my gen1 516 for over a year with zero problems, And cleaning it is childsplay. The only complaint is that I have grown to like middy's and the only middy I've seen is the 716 precision marksman in the SIG 2012 catalogue..
My GenII rifle is running perfectly. I've only got a limited number of rounds fired but so far so good.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/tokarev/SIG516%20Patrol/IMG-20120807-00022.jpg
texasmarine022003
09-13-12, 22:56
I've had my Gen 2 for a few months now with nothing but 55 grain through it with no problems. Looking to get it cut down to 11.5-12". My gunsmith in Texas actually made a barrel wrench that works on the SIG 516 barrel nut.
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q624/texasmarine022003/3565d863.jpg
http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q624/texasmarine022003/d0f30c44.jpg
Littlelebowski
09-17-12, 16:32
Any word on the lawsuits over this rifle?
DeltaSierra
09-17-12, 20:51
Any word on the lawsuits over this rifle?
Lawsuits? Over what? By whom?
Suwannee Tim
09-17-12, 20:57
......I have yet to hear why anyone should get a SIG 516......
That's easy variable. Because it's not a Ruger.
If I were to get a piston upper it would probably be a sig. The price point is right and I have heard good things from those I know who have actually used them
Littlelebowski
09-18-12, 07:47
Lawsuits? Over what? By whom?
LWRC over the piston design supposedly. Adams Arms over something else.
Buy American! Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, etc...
DeltaSierra
09-18-12, 08:22
LWRC over the piston design supposedly. Adams Arms over something else.
Hmm.. Hadn't heard that. Thanks for the information.
Buy American! Colt, BCM, DD, Noveske, etc...
?
The SIG is US made... Not sure how this turned into a "buy American" topic anyhow...
The fact is that you should focus on quality, not where a product is made.
Next stop, carrier tilt?
Final destination? Malfunction Diagnosis.
LWRC over the piston design supposedly. Adams Arms over something else.
From what I remember reading when these lawsuits hit, the Adams suit was based on the design of the gas nozzle being attached to a plug that was removable through the front of the gas block.
LWRC sued over the BCG design.
?
The SIG is US made... Not sure how this turned into a "buy American" topic anyhow...
The fact is that you should focus on quality, not where a product is made.[/QUOTE]
Last time I heard Sig is a German company. All things being equal, I just like to keep my money in this country.:D
LWRC sued over the BCG design.
Looks to me like when the LWRC patent was filed they were still using their 2-piece bolt carrier. See here for info:
http://news.priorsmart.com/lwrc-international-v-sig-sauer-l3B3/#pat-7461581
?
The SIG is US made... Not sure how this turned into a "buy American" topic anyhow...
The fact is that you should focus on quality, not where a product is made.
Last time I heard Sig is a German company. All things being equal, I just like to keep my money in this country.:D
Sig sauer is german, SIG is its american counterpart.
I recently took a tour of the SIG plant and can assure you they are made right here in the USA by Americans.
I recently took a tour of the SIG plant and can assure you they are made right here in the USA by Americans.
Did you happen to see the AR production area? What parts of the SIG AR series are made in-house? What comes from outside vendors?
So is the Gen 2 a good rifle for the price?
wetidlerjr
09-22-12, 17:40
Sig sauer is german, SIG is its american counterpart.
SIG Sauer GmbH is the German representative of Switzerland-based manufacturing firm Swiss Arms AG, which was spun off from Schweizerische Industrie Gesellschaft (SIG) in 2000. SIG Sauer Inc was established in 1985 with the name Sigarms (until October 2007) to import and distribute SIG firearms into the United States, although it now also has some manufacturing capabilities. Since 2000 it has been a separate entity.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer)
See also: SIG SAUER HISTORY (http://www.sigsauer.com/AboutUs/History.aspx)
I would have much rather seen them channel their efforts into a true US 551/552.
I agree with this.
The Sig piston AR isn't a bad thing, but it's not a good thing either, I don't care that they're making it. But those classics... the real ones. Maybe with the rail for optics, sure... I'd be much more happy. I do not like how they changed up the trigger guard on their 550 mag lowers.
Littlelebowski
09-22-12, 19:07
So is the Gen 2 a good rifle for the price?
What price? Is it comparable to a DD/BCM/Colt/S&W with an optic?
What price? Is it comparable to a DD/BCM/Colt/S&W with an optic?
No optic. Just a base rifle. Gabe Suarez is saying the Sig makes his DD pale in comparison.
Littlelebowski
09-23-12, 06:01
No optic. Just a base rifle. Gabe Suarez is saying the Sig makes his DD pale in comparison.
The decision seems obvious.
"LWRC claims SIG's SIG516 line of piston-operated AR-15 rifles infringes upon their U.S. patent #7461581 "Self-cleaning gas operating system for a firearm"."
Adams Arms vs. Sig:
Patents in case
7,739,939: “Direct drive retrofit for rifles” by Adams and assigned to Adams Arms, Inc.. Prosecuted by Shumaker, Loop + Kendrick, LLP. Includes 18 claims (1 indep.). Was application 12/218,676. Filed 7/17/2008 & Granted 6/22/2010.
7,971,518: “Direct drive retrofit for rifles” by Adams and assigned to Adams Arms, Inc.. Prosecuted by Shumaker, Loop & Kendrick, LLP. Includes 31 claims (4 indep.). Was application 12/644,436. Filed 12/22/2009 & Granted 7/5/2011.
7,469,624: “Direct drive retrofit for rifles” by Adams. Prosecuted by McGushion; Aaron P.. Includes 9 claims (1 indep.). Was application 11/938,678. Filed 11/12/2007 & Granted 12/30/2008.
If the information Gabe Suarez is putting out about the SIG516 is correct, LWRC has lost its lawsuit against SIG.
Well, I have and use a 16" 516 on a regular basis. Its a fine weapon with over 1400 rounds downrange and no tilt/wear issues and not one failure of any kind. Printed .15"CTC at 50 yds with XM193 and an EoTech XPS2 benched on my last zero check, averages .55" CTC according to my notes.
Is it a revolutionary weapon that nothing comes close too, no. Is it a very accurate and well made/functioning piston AR, yes.
Take from that what you will.
M96
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 06:41
3 shot groups?
Eurodriver
09-25-12, 06:47
No optic. Just a base rifle. Gabe Suarez is saying the Sig makes his DD pale in comparison.
Gabe Suarez you said?
Thanks. I'll stick to my BCMs.
3 shot groups?
5 shot groups slow fire benched.
Sig in Exeter, NH has a lot of problems with their guns. Sig in Exeter is not Sig in Germany, and does not produce the same level of product.
As for Mr. Suarez' comment, I must conclude that he was joking at the time he said it.
Littlelebowski
09-25-12, 09:14
5 shot groups slow fire benched.
Honestly, I'll be impressed if you fire it at 100 yards and your groups are close to being double that of 50 yards. Things change between 50 and 100.
Closing in on 50 yrs with Colt AR15 platform weapons, getting to old to be chasing rainbows. I hope the Sigs work out well for the folks running them
Well, I have and use a 16" 516 on a regular basis. Its a fine weapon with over 1400 rounds downrange and no tilt/wear issues and not one failure of any kind. Printed .15"CTC at 50 yds with XM193 and an EoTech XPS2 benched on my last zero check, averages .55" CTC according to my notes.
Is it a revolutionary weapon that nothing comes close too, no. Is it a very accurate and well made/functioning piston AR, yes.
Take from that what you will.
M96
How is the recoil compared with a DI rifle?
I was recently in a class with a guy who had a 556, and he had a trouble free 800 rounds through it - yeah, not a real high round count. I got to put about 5 rounds through it and it did seem pretty quality to me; for a piston AK/AR hybrid the recoil didn't seem any more than my 14.5 middy and everything was fit together nice. It was noticeably heavier though, but not unbearable. There were a few things I noticed: the mag release is not shrouded at all and so there were a few times that during any type of transition drill the user dumped a mag accidentally; the safety was a bit stiff and not as user friendly (within reach), I am not sure if that will smooth itself out; the area around the ejection port has no type of deflector and so it got really beat up by the expended cases.
I know that is for the 556, but I also fondled a 516 in a local store the other day and it had some desirable features that seemed to indicate quality; and they even staked the castle nut.
I can't however find information as to whether Sig batch tests, etc ... :confused:
S. Galbraith
09-25-12, 12:08
I hope their rifles are a little better made than the pistols.
How is the recoil compared with a DI rifle?
No real difference between a DI gun of the same weight, perhaps a bit snappier than a push, but nothing significant.
Honestly, I'll be impressed if you fire it at 100 yards and your groups are close to being double that of 50 yards. Things change between 50 and 100.
Have not tried that with the 516, I believe it to be capable of that level of accuracy with a good optic mounted. I suspect I am not with an EoTech XPS2 and no magnifier. My Ruger SR556E will print avg .78" CTC with a 3X burris optic and BlackHills 68 gr BTHP Match load when i do my part. I believe the SIG to be more accurate given my range notes, but havent done an apples to apples comp with same loads and optics. It should be noted these stats are with the loads each rifle shoots best with after trying a min of 5 loads. My PWS MK 114 will shoot nearly as well as these too.....
AR rifles can give remarkable acuracy, tho I still want my bolt guns for relly long stuff.
M96
When I saw the Sig 516, I thought "just what we need another AR clone"! They should stick to the 556, a real gas piston operated rifle, not just a modified AR. I would go for a 716, because it would be stepping up to a 7.62 at a good price point. Anyway, I think SIG is just trying to cash in on the AR bandwagon, and is failing miserably!
Hey SIG, please stick to the 550 series rifles, its what you do best!
One of my complaints with the 516 was the fact that the gas valve became difficult to adjust and/or remove once the valve body was fouled. I see with some interest that SIG has changed the gas block and valve on the 516 to resemble that used on the 716.
The valve on the 716 has lugs rather than threads that hold it in the block. Depressing a detent and rotating the valve 180-degrees frees the lugs from the block and it has been my experience that the 716's valve is easily removed.
I'm glad to see this change to the 516. I'll have to see if I can't find a fair price on one of the new style rifles.
I have the gen 2 516. The has block/piston has changed and now uses a lug as you mentioned. It is easily removed and re-installed, clean or dirty.
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