View Full Version : Final Report = "Fire To Destruction Test of U.S. M4A1 Carbine & M16A2 Rife Barrel(s)"
Hello Guy's,
I happened across this, Final Report = "Fire To Destruction Test of U.S. M4A1 Carbine & M16A2 Rife Barrel(s)" .pdf document recently, & thought that others may be interested in reading it. Being from September 1996 it is somewhat dated, though still interesting nonetheless.
Regards, dpast32
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA317929
whiterabbit05
08-06-10, 08:48
Thanks. Wish the pictures in the document were clearer.
Complication
08-06-10, 09:10
There's video here:
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/m4-and-m4a1-guns/
Part 1of that 2-article series is here: http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/the-making-of-the-militarys-standard-arms/
And, for those interested, another 3 NYTimes articles on the M16/M4:
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/02/how-reliable-is-the-m-16-rifle/
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/the-m-16-argument-heats-up-again/
http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/examining-the-complaints-about-american-rifle-reliability/
Complication
08-06-10, 09:14
Yes, in the above video the barrel turns red hot, wilts, and explodes.
Yes, in the above video the range catches on fire.
Yes, it's freaking awesome.
pilotguyo540
08-06-10, 15:41
That was totally wicked!!!:dance3:
It was really cool to watch things progress in the second video showing colts new heavy barrel.
smoking,
erratic ejection pattern
fire (foregrips)
more fire
serious pitch change
bolt action operations
It's interesting to me that the M203 notch did not cause any issues in the second test.
It's interesting to me that the M203 notch did not cause any issues in the second test.
the barrel gets the hottest about 3-4" from the bolt face. add to it the fact that this is where the barrel is thinnest, and that it's bearing all the weight of the rest of the barrel assembly, and the fore of the barrel wont ever get a chance to blow.
the barrel gets the hottest about 3-4" from the bolt face. add to it the fact that this is where the barrel is thinnest, and that it's bearing all the weight of the rest of the barrel assembly, and the fore of the barrel wont ever get a chance to blow.
And that is 100% proof why the Government Profile is ass-backwards!
And that is 100% proof why the Government Profile is ass-backwards!
either that or its proof that it's not wise to ram 18 magazines through your weapon full auto without pause... i havent decided which im going with, though.
how many more full auto magazines can you get through an hbar before failure? you're well past the point of cookoff by that time.. and it seems to me that the mark of "too much" should fall somewhere below cookoff. the weapon is out of the fight at that point either way, so what difference does it make if it can handle another three magazines before kB?
Do enough mag dumps and you'll blow the barrel of any firearm not equipped with auxiliary cooling. I know a Marine that did this (unintentionally) with a BAR...
...at Chosin - trying to keep the Chicoms at bay.
eternal24k
08-06-10, 20:58
either that or its proof that it's not wise to ram 18 magazines through your weapon full auto without pause... i havent decided which im going with, though.
how many more full auto magazines can you get through an hbar before failure? you're well past the point of cookoff by that time.. and it seems to me that the mark of "too much" should fall somewhere below cookoff. the weapon is out of the fight at that point either way, so what difference does it make if it can handle another three magazines before kB?
i think the above video had about 400 rounds before the gas tube ruptured
i think the above video had about 400 rounds before the gas tube ruptured
http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab6/bkb0000/stuff/kBfile.gif?t=1281148204
the ones in the test referenced all had more than that.
but whatever the amount, if the barrel is hot enough to deform enough to rupture, assuming the barrel is sound to begin with, the weapon is already well past practical usability to the soldier it's issued to. i suppose in a desperate, last blaze of glory, he can continue to drive magazines into it, assuming he's even carrying that many, while its cooking off... but it just seems pretty unrealistic.
we've had a few very intense firefights in our current conflicts, and barrel ruptures in the field are exceedingly rare. i just don't know if there's a "problem" that needs addressing, with the M4A1.
jklaughrey
08-06-10, 22:05
By the looks of it, I guess I will stop at 595 rounds on my Colt M4 Carbine then. LOL
wild_wild_wes
08-07-10, 10:56
it's not wise to ram 18 magazines through your weapon full auto without pause
That is because it is a carbine, not a machine gun.
Complication
08-07-10, 11:00
That is because it is a carbine, not a machine gun.
It's not wise to put that many rounds through a machine gun without pause, either.
Machine gun barrels aren't made from fairy dust and unicorn farts**, steel is still steel. A machine gun barrel might be built to withstand that kind of torture for a little longer, but I can guarantee you'll kill the gun just as dead if you unleash that volume of fire without pause or without switching out barrels.
**Except Noveske's
wild_wild_wes
08-07-10, 16:26
Do'h....aren't Noveske chromed barrels essentially M249 barrels?
Complication
08-07-10, 16:29
On at least some of their guns, yes--the same steel is used.
they're CHF from the same steel the SAW uses, and lined to SAW spec. i imagine a noveske N4L barrel would probably last longer under sustained FA fire. i'd really like to see how much longer, but it would only be for curiosity. the fact of the matter is, as Wes said- machineguns do not carbines make.
wonder if it might blow a little earlier in the sun and heat of Afghanistan or Iraq, rather than the dark, cool, air conditioned, ventilated firing range?
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-07-10, 18:25
How did the IAR do? :jester:
pilotguyo540
08-07-10, 18:30
wonder if it might blow a little earlier in the sun and heat of Afghanistan or Iraq, rather than the dark, cool, air conditioned, ventilated firing range?
When you are dealing with temps over 1700 degrees Fahrenheit, 50 degrees ambient temp difference won't matter much at all.
goodoleboy
08-07-10, 20:32
I had a buddy cook a M249 SAW (not to the point of catastrophic failure, but to the point that the barrel started glowing and warped). He was going through 200 rd boxes with one trigger pull, loading another belt and going again. This continued till the barrel started glowing, at which point he started packing snow on it. I don't recall how many rounds he expended that evening, but he did cook the park off the barrel and warp it severely. If he hadn't stopped, it no doubt would have caused catastrophic failure within the next 100 rounds or so.
Complication
08-07-10, 20:59
I had a buddy cook a M249 SAW (not to the point of catastrophic failure, but to the point that the barrel started glowing and warped). He was going through 200 rd boxes with one trigger pull, loading another belt and going again. This continued till the barrel started glowing, at which point he started packing snow on it. I don't recall how many rounds he expended that evening, but he did cook the park off the barrel and warp it severely. If he hadn't stopped, it no doubt would have caused catastrophic failure within the next 100 rounds or so.
After this range session did he walk away with a huge grin that lasted 3-4 days?
Some of you might have already seen this, but here's a 300 round FA ammo dump out of a 10.5in Noveske:
Youtube Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmliCMvcaq0)
He starts shooting at the 0:21sec mark, and finishes at 1:05. So that's 44sec for 300 rounds including time for the mag changes.
Just some more fodder for the discussion...
ICANHITHIMMAN
08-11-10, 22:19
I am absolutly shocked 5oz make's that much diffrence. I Have had the M4 smoking before but never pushed it that hard. Gives me alot of confidence in the M4 wishing now my unit had the A1 model but we cant have it all. Guess I will just have to be a real good shot.
CumbiaDude
08-14-10, 20:00
The pdf is no longer available at that site. Anybody got a copy of the pdf I could check out?
Hello Buddy, IIRC, I was the O/P of this thread. ( I think I was ?? ) Let me check my files to see if I can dig up the original PDF source. Please give me a day or 2 to check through everything, I'll get back to you.
Best, dpast32
ColtSeavers
07-20-16, 10:42
Hello Buddy, IIRC, I was the O/P of this thread. ( I think I was ?? ) Let me check my files to see if I can dig up the original PDF source. Please give me a day or 2 to check through everything, I'll get back to you.
Best, dpast32
Not to steal your thunder, but googling AMSTA-AR-ES-92-2 will yield a downloadable link as a (the first) result.
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