View Full Version : Slip EWL, EWL 30, EWL 50, EWL Grease comparison UPDATE: Corrosion
I have noticed that lube (Slip EWL) in my rifles flows away from my BCG & down to the buffer area - leaving the BCG almost dry after the rifles remain upright in the safe for a while. I normally just relube before shooting again. However, I wanted to see if a thicker lube would stay in place better.
I decided to try out Slip's other products - EWL 30, EWL 50, EWL Grease.
Start - laying flat:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/EWL_before.jpg
Several hours sitting upright:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/EWL_After.jpg
The regular EWL flowed to the bottom of the plate immediately & just left a thin film after several hours. The others stayed in place better as can be seen in the second photo.
I fired my BCM Midlength today using the EWL 30. I was only able to fire 200 rds, but the bolt was still wet - similar to regular EWL(after firing same amount), but thicker.
However, nothing is a free lunch. These other lubes may stay in place better, but what am I losing as you go up in viscosity?
Thanks for the comparison of the EWL types. I received a small bottle with my LWRC purchase last year and have been thinking about switching from CLP.
I really like the regular EWL.
I've never seen the 30W or 50W in stores. I think I'll pick up a bottle of the 30W when I see some.
Thanks.
I haven't found any of the 30 & 50 at the places that I usually buy. So, I ordered straight from Slip's website. More expensive that way, but I just wanted a small amount to test.
I have been using the regular EWL for a couple years. I like it much better than Breakfree CLP that I used before. I think that it is a better lube than Breakfree. However, some people feel Breakfree may be better at corrosion protection. I haven't seen a difference yet.
I did another amateur test on corrosion over last winter. I had a section of a parkerized FAL barrel. I covered one area with Breakfree, one with SLIP & another was degreased/bare. I left it outside for 2 months in an area that it would get wet, but it was never resting in water or dirt. All three sections looked the same - no noticable corrosion. I meant to do the test again in the summer heat, but forgot about until now.
buckshot1220
08-07-10, 09:08
This post interests me because as of late I've been thinking of moving away from CLP due to some of the OP's aforementioned reasons. My only question is, do you think that the 50W and grease will be more apt to attracting and holding foreign debris than the lighter oil?
An Undocumented Worker
08-08-10, 10:00
I picked up some EWL 30 from a local pawn shop that specializes in firearms and accessories. I've been using it in my AR and my pistols, so far I like the stuff. It doesn't seem to run out of the weapon like clp will. I seem to have noticed that heat will thicken it up ever so slightly. Even with a generous lubing of EWL 30 on my pistol leaving it in the hot glovebox of my car at work with temps reaching well over 120 degrees in there the stuff doesn't seep out of the rail channels and make a mess like other lubes will.
And on another note it cleans just as well as regular slip 2000 if not better. When done at the range I'll run a nylon brush soaked with the stuff down the bore of whatever I shot and let sit for the ride home while the barrel is still warm, the 30 clings to the bore and stays put. After a few patches and some light scrubbing the bore is carbon free along with all but the most persistant copper or lead.
Update on the test - I was going to take a follow up photo, but two days later, it looks the same.
One note on the regular EWL - There is still a stain there, but when I touch that area, I can't tell that there is any lube there. When the 2nd photo was taken, it still felt greasy.
Additional note on the 30 & 50, there is a thin film that drained from the main lube (can be barely seen in 2nd photo of EWL 30).
tr1kstanc3
08-08-10, 16:13
Thanks for testing this. I have the same issue when using EWL on my BCG's and my rifles are kept upright in the safe. I recently took them out after about 3 months of storage and they were drier than I would have preferred with much of the lube seeping out towards the buffer/tube. I may have to pick up some of the thicker viscous lube.
Belmont31R
08-08-10, 16:54
I like EWL a lot but yes it is runny. Its a very thin lube but works well.
Ill have to try the 30 out.
Crow Hunter
08-09-10, 08:14
I don't shoot/carry guns for a living, my guns sit in a safe ALOT more than they get shot. I noticed the problem that you mentioned years ago.
I have been using wheel bearing grease for a while now. It works great for me, doesn't migrate around in the action. When I go out to shoot for a long period of time, I keep a little bottle of a light lube, CLP, Slip or just plain motor oil in case it starts getting sluggish. I haven't had to use it yet. Of course, I usually only shoot at most 200 rds in a session.
I used to be an engineer in a shop where we machined gray cast iron rotors and 1040V hubs. All of the ways (guide rails) on our equipment were greased not oiled. They continued to work, even with all the carbon dust (extremely abrasive) floating around in the equipment. It sold me on grease.
The only issue that I have had with grease was on a cold (15 deg F) morning right after I had lubed a rifle. I had gotten grease on the firing pin when lubing the rifle and it slowed it down enough that it wouldn't break primer. I took the pin out, and wiped it off, and went on shooting.
I take a lot of extra care greasing the cam pin now.:lol:
UPDATE: Corrosion test.
I took a section of a Stg58 to compare SLIP2000 to BreakFree. I left it out in the weather (low 90's, occasional shower) for the last 3 weeks.
SLIP2000 is on the left, no CLP in middle and BreakFree on Right:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Test8.jpg
(Don't ask me why I put "F" on the barrel for BreakFree. I don't have a clue :D)
tr1kstanc3
08-29-10, 13:55
UPDATE: Corrosion test.
I took a section of a Stg58 to compare SLIP2000 to BreakFree. I left it out in the weather (low 90's, occasional shower) for the last 3 weeks.
SLIP2000 is on the left, no CLP in middle and BreakFree on Right:
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/Test8.jpg
(Don't ask me why I put "F" on the barrel for BreakFree. I don't have a clue :D)
Great update and test. Looks like Slip has some terrible corrosion resistance. I think I will continue to use Weaponshield to wipe down the outside of my firearms.
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.
Something very wrong here. Even the control section is rusted lees then the Slip side. Something had to have happened in the prep work or previous lubing or cleaning. I have seen to many other outside back yard test that are very different then this and have way diffrent out comes. Here is another link to another long outdoor test.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=502758
Exiledviking
08-29-10, 23:40
Off topic.
This post interests me because as of late I've been thinking of moving away from CLP due to some of the OP's aforementioned reasons. My only question is, do you think that the 50W and grease will be more apt to attracting and holding foreign debris than the lighter oil?
You just encapsulated the great majority of misunderstanding that lots of gun people have about lube and what it does.
One part of what good lube does is to hold foreign debris. What happens then, is that if there are two tightly clearanced parts moving together, the swiping action of those parts clears the foreign matter from between them, thanks to the lube.
If the parts are not tightly clearanced, the lube just holds the foreign matter and prevents it from migrating.
A lube that doesn't pick up foreign matter is not a very good lube.
Good lubrication has 5 properties. It reduces friction, cools, cleans (see description above), cushions and reduces corrosion.
DualBerettas
09-02-10, 14:34
It is excellent stuff. Tubbs and Weaponshield seem good too.
DB
Nevermind... I found where it does list it.
I wouldn't jump to any conclusions just yet.
Something very wrong here. Even the control section is rusted lees then the Slip side. Something had to have happened in the prep work or previous lubing or cleaning. I have seen to many other outside back yard test that are very different then this and have way diffrent out comes. Here is another link to another long outdoor test.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=7&t=502758
That's because the outside of the metal is obviously protected by some sort of treatment, apparent by the gray color of the surface and the silver color of the scratched metal.
Scratching the metal removed the protective barrier and allowed accelerated rusting on the unprotected surface. Notice the scratches forming the "S" have the worst corrosion.
I have been using EWL50 for a while now and I love it. While Weapon Shield is a good product, it doesn't stay put. Either does Break Free, EWL, Hoppes, etc. They are all too thin. EWL30 is okay, but when I put lube on the bolt, carrier, carrier rails, etc and throw Lucy into safe until the next range trip, I want the everything I lubed to still be lubed. EWL50 is the next best thing to grease in the sense that it stays where you put it.
I only used Weapon Shield CLP. And seems to work very well.
yhmspecter
02-15-11, 21:36
I have been using Slip EWL for a while, but this thread has me wondering if I should go with the 30 or 50...
I've never used Slip products but 50 weight synthetic motor oil stays in place for me - even with extended upright storing.
MadcapMagician
02-16-11, 07:19
I've been using the EWL 30 stuff on everything. Runs great from Rimfires to ARs and pistols. I have found that a heavy application of the 30 and 50 weights on some rimfires will slow down the cyclic rate, sometimes to the point of a malfunction with certain ammunition. That being said, AR-15s with a heavy dose seem to run forever on the 30/50 stuff.
CarbonCycles
02-16-11, 07:33
Gentlemen, you might be misinterpreting the way lubricants work. Some lubricants use a thin-film boundary (several microns thick), which upon initial inspection appears to be deficient. However, the lubricant forms a very strong ionic bond with the surface and remains intact. So in short, it may appear that there is no lube present, but in reality it's still there. Using a thicker viscosity lube does not always equate to better performance especially if it throws the timing of the entire system off.
I personally have used both WS and Slip EWL. I have since migrated to Slip in that I've found it to work much better for my applications.
Final note, I agree with the previous poster regarding the corrosion. It appears that there is something wrong with the initial prep, or the experiment was flawed in some way.
I only used Weapon Shield CLP. And seems to work very well.
But does your weapon shield stay in place after a few days of upright storage? I mean, if you use your gun everyday, then I could see WS working just fine. I don't have that luxury, so my guns get stored in the safe for periods of time until I can find the time to hit the range, etc.
When I coat the bolt with EWL50 and put her away in the safe, I know a month or more later, that bolt will have the lube exactly where I left it.
Weaponshield CLP seems to stay put really well compared to standard Slip 2k EWL for me.
I am thinking about switching back to Slip 2K soon because it is non toxic though. Their carbon cutter stuff works really well as does their degreaser.
Weaponshield CLP seems to stay put really well compared to standard Slip 2k EWL for me.
I am thinking about switching back to Slip 2K soon because it is non toxic though. Their carbon cutter stuff works really well as does their degreaser.
Try the EWL 30 or 50. You won't regret it. Also, I do use WS for my bore. I absolutely love Slip 2k's degreaser. Non-toxic and smell clean like soap and water. I haven't tried the carbon cutter yet. But I am thinking about it.
Where is the ewl30/50 sold? It's not listed on their site.
jasonhgross
02-16-11, 12:57
What happens when EWL 30 and 50 get cold? Do they cause seizing?
Where is the ewl30/50 sold? It's not listed on their site.
I buy it from http://dsgarms.com/Category/52_1/Cleaning_Supplies,_Tools_and_Lubricants.aspx
What happens when EWL 30 and 50 get cold? Do they cause seizing?
Slip 2000 EWL 30 and 50 both withstand extreme temperature changes from -110º F to +1250º F. If you are in -110º, you have bigger issues than wether or not your gun seizes due to viscosity... :eek:
I just used a blend of Militec grease and 10W-30 Castrol Synthetic mixed into a oiler bottle and it works well. My BCG stays covered for weeks.
If a guy uses the Slip Carbon Killer in the bore is it also necessary to use the Copper Cutter? Or is the Carbon Killer more for using to clean the BCG?
philipeggo
03-06-11, 14:26
I have been on a quest for the perfect gun lube for quite a while. On my glock i use a bit of Sentry Solutions grease on the rails and some Rem oil for the outside, wipe and then done. I know rem oil isnt the best put its cheap and i reapply whenever it gets dry . In my search for the perfect lubes and what not ive been hankering to try out the following
1) Frog lube - Vegetable based,non toxic,good smelling and apparently pretty effective. comes in grease and and oil form
2) Royal purple makes a gun lube and a all purpose grease . If they make great motor oils and what not i see no reason why their gun lube would be any different
3)Lucas also makes a gun lube and a general use grease. See above for reasoning.
4) Sentry solutions makes a dry film type lube that ive wanted to coat my bore and BCG group with. It can be used in combination with a normal lube . should make cleaning the bore easier and maybe even give me a few FPS.
One day ill get around to doing a test on these , the problem is how to test them? Corrosion for me is a non factor since any lube applied regularly will prevent it. some last more than others but since i lube my guns all the time i never have a problem and dont imagine ever having one. im more concerned with performance : Will it make my actions smoother etc, will it stay in place, will it burn off or seize,will i get any better performance (increased fps,tighter groups,unicorns whatever) . So what parameters should be set for such a test and how should/could these things be measured?
Great thread... Thanks for the info!
As previously said, prob most of the lubes out there will protect against corrosion to some degree, if regularly applied. Some of them, like WS and EWL, are excellent synthetic formulas, and probably do a better job than most lubes at corrosion protection, but corrosion protection is still not what they are best at. They are primarily lubes, and no one solution can be good at everything.
If you live in a climate where you need top-notch corrosion protection, I think you get better results with a solution that specializes in corrosion protection. After quite a few years of trying a number of the most popular lubes (including most recently, WS), I've finally decided to quit looking for the ideal all-in-one solution. I now use separate solutions for lube versus general corrosion protection:
* lube on load-bearing and moving parts (I've gone to using a synthetic 5w-30 weight motor oil with a wide temp range--best lube I've ever used. Put some in a needle oiler bottle, put a drop on key lube points like slides, rails, and sears, and it stays put for weeks. Does not gum up when super cold, as even some of the high-end lubes like WS do).
* CorrosionX -- best overall corrosion protectant I have found for guns that you actively use. (For long-time storage, products that completely seal off the metal from the air, like RIG grease or T9 BoeShield, are hard to beat). CorrosionX is good to apply on all metal surfaces of your gun, inside and out, including the bore as it bonds to the metal and creates a slippery coating that repels dust and grit particles. CorrosionX states that "A major U.S. law enforcement agency reported that a light coat of CorrosionX for Guns in the bore increased muzzle velocity by more than 100 fps, [and] kept barrels noticeably cooler." I now buy CorrosionX by the gallon, and I not only coat my guns with it and even have a parts-dipping tray for soaking all my gun parts in it, I also coat tools with it, and use it for most metal and lube applications throughout the house.
For me, the combination of CorrosionX plus a quality 5w-30 weight synthetic motor oil is giving me the best overall results I've ever had, and ironically, they're a lot less expensive at the same time.
Mobil 1 15w-50 stays put really well for me. I always noticed how dry the bolt looked even just a couple days after using only on Break Free CLP. Picked some Mobil 1 and its amazing how well it stays for weeks. It's all I use for my duty rifle.
...And it is working out very well for me. Light enough to flow easy at low temp, yet stays in place on the BCG pretty good, even when hot. Not sure of the long-term anti-rust properties yet (only 1 year into usage; I'll bet it's as good as any other) but I really think this stuff works great on all of my duty weapons. Clean up (after a range session) is great; it's 100% synthetic stuff as well. $6 for a quart; should last me for years. ;)
MikeCLeonard
03-07-11, 18:09
I found the following article to be quite interesting...and may have some relevance to the topic here.
http://grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html
ATF fluid ha, very interesting!
Thanks for that link
I found the following article to be quite interesting...and may have some relevance to the topic here.
http://grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html
This should be made into a sticky. Great link.
I have been using a light weight synthetic motor oil for my guns for a while now. Can't really say its better or worse than clp or slip ewl (both of which I have used) but I can say it's cheaper and more readily available.
MikeCLeonard
03-07-11, 19:53
I found the following article to be quite interesting...and may have some relevance to the topic here.
http://grantcunningham.com/lubricants101.html
Also, to help out anyone that may be interested in the Lubriplate's FMO 350-AW oil that Mr. Cunningham references in his article, follow the following link. It took me a while to locate a source for this stuff, but I was able to locate sources for bulk gallons, as well as Aerosol cans of it, which is what I linked to below. **Note** I haven't tried this oil yet, so I don't have any review's to offer on it...But I'm planning on giving it a shot once I run out of the lubes I already have.
http://www.oiltown.com/mineral-oil-fmo350.htm
I've been using 15w-50 mobil 1 synthetic motor oil in my AR for the past few hundred rounds with excellent results. IMO no gun lubricant will ever match the long lasting lubricity and film coverage of a synthetic motor oil. I got myself thinking though: how does motor oil do at preventing corrosion? Being that the internals of an engine are completely sealed off from the environment, corrosion resistance isn't necessarily a factor in the chemical design of motor oil.
My reasoning for using motor oil as a gun lubricant:
1. Designed for superior lubrication and film coverage.
2. Designed for active cleaning of carbon deposits and keeping foreign material in suspension.
3. Designed for high heat, high pressure environments.
4. Cheap, readily available.
I wanted to set up a quick experiment to determine how different lubricants will form a protective barrier against rust and corrosion. Since rust can only form in the presence of oxygen, a good lubricant will need to provide a barrier between the part and the environment in order to prevent rust.
Procedure:
Oxidation, or rusting, is catalyzed by the presence of either heat or ions. I made a solution of 1 part bleach (sodium hypochlorite) and 1 part vinegar (acetic acid) to act as an oxidizing solution. Equal amounts of the solution were poured into four shot glasses. Given the nonpolar nature of oils all the lubricants tested formed a separate layer on top of the bleach/vinegar solution. Approximately 1/4 oz of Mobil 1 15w-50, Weapon Shield, and Break Free CLP were added to each shot glass. The fourth glass contains only bleach/ammonia solution as a control. I chipped the flux of a welding rod, sanded it clean to completely expose the metal. The rod was washed of dust and then dried and cut into four equal lengths. Each length of rod was placed into a shot glass, passing through the lubricant into the bleach/vinegar solution. The rods were all inserted at 11:45 P.M.
Experiment setup. Photos taken around 11:55 P.M.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/2534/dscf7791m.jpg (http://img268.imageshack.us/i/dscf7791m.jpg/)
Mobil 1 15w-50 - Fully coated no noticeable rust. 11:55 P.M.
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1475/dscf7794f.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/dscf7794f.jpg/)
Weapon Shield - Slight rust noticeable at the bottom of the rod. 11:55 P.M.
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/7160/dscf7801.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/dscf7801.jpg/)
Break Free CLP - Most noticeable rust. 11:55 P.M.
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/1302/dscf7802.jpg (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/dscf7802.jpg/)
Control. Note: What you're looking at is a solution of bleach/vinegar and rust. When the unprotected steel rod was placed into the solution it began to rust almost immediately.
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6451/dscf7797.jpg (http://img810.imageshack.us/i/dscf7797.jpg/)
I'll post further results after more time has elapsed.
Good experiment, interested in seeing the results.
Would it have been better to physically coat each of the rods with the respective lubricant and then just placed it in the solution rather than put the lubrications on top and insert the rods into it hoping that the rods get an equal amount of lubrication on them?
Just some observations. I like the experiment none the less.
I placed the rods into the solution slowly so they would be evenly coated. The idea was to avoid any potential differences that could have occurred if the rods were dipped or brush coated.
Would it have been better to physically coat each of the rods with the respective lubricant and then just placed it in the solution rather than put the lubrications on top and insert the rods into it hoping that the rods get an equal amount of lubrication on them?
The next day 1:00 P.M.
Mobil 1 15w-50
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/479/dscf7804.jpg (http://img851.imageshack.us/i/dscf7804.jpg/)
Weapon Shield
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5792/dscf7805.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/dscf7805.jpg/)
Break Free CLP
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9391/dscf7806.jpg (http://img846.imageshack.us/i/dscf7806.jpg/)
Control
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9250/dscf7807k.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/dscf7807k.jpg/)
At first glance it appears the the Mobil 1 provided the most rust protection but then I pulled the rods out for a closer look.
Mobil 1 15w-50
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8741/dscf7808.jpg (http://img850.imageshack.us/i/dscf7808.jpg/)
Weapon Shield
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3995/dscf7809.jpg (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/dscf7809.jpg/)
Break Free CLP
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1894/dscf7815.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/dscf7815.jpg/)
Control
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9127/dscf7814z.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/dscf7814z.jpg/)
Comparing Results: Both Weapon Shield and Break Free CLP outperformed Mobil 1 15w-50 in protecting against rust. From the photos it appears that, aside from the small rust ring on the right, CLP performed better than Weapon Sheild. Based on my observations, CLP offered better performance against rust.
Conclusion: Both Weapon Shield and Break Free CLP offer superior corrosion resistance compared to mobil 1 15w-50.
I theorize that due to the higher viscosity of mobil 1 15w-50 and the buoyant forces acting on it, the film was forced toward the surface and away from the steel rod at a faster rate.
I might try a mixture of mobil 1 15w-50 and/or CLP and Weapon Shield looking specifically at how corrosion resistant the mixture will be and also if the mixture has a tendency to separate.
I placed the rods into the solution slowly so they would be evenly coated. The idea was to avoid any potential differences that could have occurred if the rods were dipped or brush coated.
The next day 1:00 P.M.
Mobil 1 15w-50
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/479/dscf7804.jpg (http://img851.imageshack.us/i/dscf7804.jpg/)
Weapon Shield
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/5792/dscf7805.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/i/dscf7805.jpg/)
Break Free CLP
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9391/dscf7806.jpg (http://img846.imageshack.us/i/dscf7806.jpg/)
Control
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9250/dscf7807k.jpg (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/dscf7807k.jpg/)
At first glance it appears the the Mobil 1 provided the most rust protection but then I pulled the rods out for a closer look.
Mobil 1 15w-50
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8741/dscf7808.jpg (http://img850.imageshack.us/i/dscf7808.jpg/)
Weapon Shield
http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/3995/dscf7809.jpg (http://img814.imageshack.us/i/dscf7809.jpg/)
Break Free CLP
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1894/dscf7815.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/dscf7815.jpg/)
Control
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/9127/dscf7814z.jpg (http://img228.imageshack.us/i/dscf7814z.jpg/)
Comparing Results: Both Weapon Shield and Break Free CLP outperformed Mobil 1 15w-50 in protecting against rust. From the photos it appears that, aside from the small rust ring on the right, CLP performed better than Weapon Sheild. Based on my observations, CLP offered better performance against rust.
Conclusion: Both Weapon Shield and Break Free CLP offer superior corrosion resistance compared to mobil 1 15w-50.
I theorize that due to the higher viscosity of mobil 1 15w-50 and the buoyant forces acting on it, the film was forced toward the surface and away from the steel rod at a faster rate.
I might try a mixture of mobil 1 15w-50 and/or CLP and Weapon Shield looking specifically at how corrosion resistant the mixture will be and also if the mixture has a tendency to separate.
Good to know, I'm gonna try some other lubricants we have over in the shop tomorrow, and see if some of these lubricants we use for heavy equipment have any firearm use, we used to use Lubriplate on forklift masts and the stuff we had 10 years ago was fricken amazing, but it did attract dust and dirt.
Based on my observations, CLP offered better performance against rust.
This is why I clean and protect with Breakfree CLP and lube the BCG with Mobil 1. Best of both worlds I guess.
just a suggestion - try this again with Eezox and I bet you have a new winner.
For the record I do not use any of these products. with that said i feel this is flawed only in the sense that inserting the rods into the layer of oil does not mean that the rods would be correctly coated, regardless of how slowly they were inserted. Especially since it does not represent the same manner in which one would apply each product. It is in that manner in which this experiment should have been done.
The results in this experiment clearly shows that somehow the solution was able to get past the oil without any agitation. This makes me wonder if the solution was able to "dissolve" the oil away from the rod. I doubt this very much.
Break Free is a much thinner lubricant and likely was able to coat the rod much more efficiently.
I could be wrong entirely. But it just raises some question in my mind.
I doubt it too. The fact that the oil and solution don't mix is evidence that one will not dissolve the other. Like I said before I suspect it may be due to buoyant force.
The results in this experiment clearly shows that somehow the solution was able to get past the oil without any agitation. This makes me wonder if the solution was able to "dissolve" the oil away from the rod. I doubt this very much.
The bleach/vinegar solution is extremely ionic and is a much more brutal form of exposure than most other environments on the planet. It is quite impressive that Beakfree performed as it did.
For a more "real world" situation where metal wouldn't be submerged for long periods of time, but rather exposed in small quantities, I repeated the experiment as such:
Three shot glasses were filled with each lubricant. Steel rods were dipped into their respective lubricants and left submerged for five seconds. The rods were then allowed to drip off excess lubricant for five seconds. Each rod was then submerged into the oxidizing solution for five seconds and then placed on wax paper. There was no rust on any of the rods.
I doubt it too. The fact that the oil and solution don't mix is evidence that one will not dissolve the other. Like I said before I suspect it may be due to buoyant force.
The bleach/vinegar solution is extremely ionic and is a much more brutal form of exposure than most other environments on the planet. It is quite impressive that Beakfree performed as it did.
For a more "real world" situation where metal wouldn't be submerged for long periods of time, but rather exposed in small quantities, I repeated the experiment as such:
Three shot glasses were filled with each lubricant. Steel rods were dipped into their respective lubricants and left submerged for five seconds. The rods were then allowed to drip off excess lubricant for five seconds. Each rod was then submerged into the oxidizing solution for five seconds and then placed on wax paper. There was no rust on any of the rods.
To prevent rust, corrosion, etc on any metal surface, you have to provide some kind of a non-reactive (such as oil) barrier between the metal surface and whatever else would cause rust, corrosion, etc. That is why I believe that any of those products would provide corrosion protection as long as the product stays on the surface. I mean, I can protect a bare rod from corrosion by simply and securely wrapping it in some kind of air and water tight barrier (non-oil/CLP/etc).
regardless of the results or the test itself. it was still a great test.
What's up with the Slip EWL30 almost always being out of stock? Is it that much in demand or they don't make as much of it?
saddlerocker
09-11-11, 14:42
DSGArms is the only place I have found the EWL 30 and 50.
I dont like how thin the normal EWL is so I might try the 30, or just stick to Break-Free LP, its nice and thick and doesnt pretend to be a solvent like CLP
I've been using 15w-50 mobil 1 synthetic motor oil in my AR for the past few hundred rounds with excellent results. IMO no gun lubricant will ever match the long lasting lubricity and film coverage of a synthetic motor oil.
this has got me curious. what do you think is special about synth motor oil and why do you think it outperforms weapon specific lubes?
is it the viscosity? is it the formula or additives?..
I'll be honest and say I'm having a hard time believing that's true. just as there are different grades, viscosities, and additives packages for all lubes, depending on the application, I find it hard to believe that synth motor oil just happens to work better than something that is specifically engineered for the task...
BufordTJustice
09-11-11, 19:01
this has got me curious. what do you think is special about synth motor oil and why do you think it outperforms weapon specific lubes?
is it the viscosity? is it the formula or additives?..
I'll be honest and say I'm having a hard time believing that's true. just as there are different grades, viscosities, and additives packages for all lubes, depending on the application, I find it hard to believe that synth motor oil just happens to work better than something that is specifically engineered for the task...
Ray, I have used synthetic gear lube (80w) by royal purple to MUCH greater effect than any synthetic motor oil. I used to dabble with mobile 1 for a while....I've since switched to Slip 2K EWL for most gun uses since it provides adequate protection from friction and fights corrosion decently as well.
I found that anything that has really high film strength (thicker motor oils and the RP syn gear lube) tends to gum-up in the expansion chamber (tail of the bolt) in my BCG. The Slip2K forms very little carbon and just scrapes right off with light application of a bolt cleaning tool. The thicker lubes really varnished the tail of the bolt more than the Slip 2K in my experience.
However, for high pressure stuff, the Royal purple 80w syn gear lube provides the slickest and strongest lubricant film I've ever used outside of actual grease (Great for door hinges and other high-load problem areas where you need the lubricant to migrate).
I think many people underestimate the amount of heat that the gasses from the propellant transport to the expansion chamber area. It gets HOT in the expansion chamber...and there is flame present. I'm not sure that ANY motor oil has been tested in that specific condition (or gear oil, FTM). Gun lubricants are routinely tested in conditions like that. I'm no engineer...but that's what I've found so far.
Ray, I have used synthetic gear lube (80w) by royal purple to MUCH greater effect than any synthetic motor oil. I used to dabble with mobile 1 for a while....I've since switched to Slip 2K EWL for most gun uses since it provides adequate protection from friction and fights corrosion decently as well.
I found that anything that has really high film strength (thicker motor oils and the RP syn gear lube) tends to gum-up in the expansion chamber (tail of the bolt) in my BCG. The Slip2K forms very little carbon and just scrapes right off with light application of a bolt cleaning tool. The thicker lubes really varnished the tail of the bolt more than the Slip 2K in my experience.
However, for high pressure stuff, the Royal purple 80w syn gear lube provides the slickest and strongest lubricant film I've ever used outside of actual grease (Great for door hinges and other high-load problem areas where you need the lubricant to migrate).
I think many people underestimate the amount of heat that the gasses from the propellant transport to the expansion chamber area. It gets HOT in the expansion chamber...and there is flame present. I'm not sure that ANY motor oil has been tested in that specific condition (or gear oil, FTM). Gun lubricants are routinely tested in conditions like that. I'm no engineer...but that's what I've found so far.
yeah, you're kind of tipping my hand but that's what I was curious about. motor oil is designed - very highly engineered, btw... - to work in a specific closed environment under specific conditions. the gun lubes have been engineered to work in guns.
if someone says that they have tested their choice and says it works better, I'm not going to call them a liar but I'd like to know the parameters of that - saying you've used mobil 1 for "the last several hundred rounds" and it's still there doesn't tell me much.
saying I used Weapon Shield on the barrel of a new SIG226 and after 1000 rounds of training and competition there was very little apparent wear, when my other SIGS showed very apparent barrel/slide wear in as little as 200 rounds using Tetralube tells me something.
I don't know under what conditions the Mobil 1 excels at but "several hundred" rounds can leave a lot of variables. was that over one or two or several sessions with cleaning in between? (I have fired more than 1000 rounds hard rounds in a 3-day training class and the SLIP I used did its job).
what did the Mobil 1 do that a gun specific lube did not? also, to get back to what you mentioned, what is occurring that is not being seen?..
Just how hot are the gases entering the BCG? I have never seen anyone post data for this, nor have I been able to find it myself
BufordTJustice
09-11-11, 21:23
yeah, you're kind of tipping my hand but that's what I was curious about. motor oil is designed - very highly engineered, btw... - to work in a specific closed environment under specific conditions. the gun lubes have been engineered to work in guns.
if someone says that they have tested their choice and says it works better, I'm not going to call them a liar but I'd like to know the parameters of that - saying you've used mobil 1 for "the last several hundred rounds" and it's still there doesn't tell me much.
saying I used Weapon Shield on the barrel of a new SIG226 and after 1000 rounds of training and competition there was very little apparent wear, when my other SIGS showed very apparent barrel/slide wear in as little as 200 rounds using Tetralube tells me something.
I don't know under what conditions the Mobil 1 excels at but "several hundred" rounds can leave a lot of variables. was that over one or two or several sessions with cleaning in between? (I have fired more than 1000 rounds hard rounds in a 3-day training class and the SLIP I used did its job).
what did the Mobil 1 do that a gun specific lube did not? also, to get back to what you mentioned, what is occurring that is not being seen?..
Agreed. I have personally gone ~1200 rounds in my BCM 14.5" middy using a spikes NiB BCG using only sparing applications of Slip 2K EWL and no cleaning. That was a 60-40 split between Russian Tula 55gr and Fed XM193. Not one single malfunction.
I once read some figures on the gas temperature once it reaches the gas key.
@Mist, I'll have to dive into the internets to find some numbers. I remember the gas still being very hot, though it has cooled since burning in the case, traveling down the barrel, up through the gas port, and back through the gas tube.
The expansion chamber also goes through some pretty severe temperature cycling. From ambient, to pretty fuggin' hot, back to near-ambient (all depends on the ROF). Motor oil is NOT designed to rapidly temperature cycle.
All multi-weight (XXW-XX) motor oils operate as a base oil with thickeners blended-in. The thickeners alter the viscosity of the motor oil based on temperature....they get THICKER with increases in oil temperature. This is a design goal to maintain a certain flow rate at very low start-up temps, yet maintain protection at normal operating temps.
I simply do not have an answer as to how the thickeners or other additives will behave during rapid temperature cycling, or how they will cope with the elevated levels of particulates in the environment.
Motor Oil is designed as a transport mechanism. It is supposed to carry contaminants to an oil filter. I have not yet encountered a firearm with a circulating closed-loop lubrication system with a filter.
They are simply two different universes.
For the record, I am a HUGE proponent of using synthetic motor oils in vehicles. I use it in all my vehicles and even in my generator and my lawn mower. It is vastly superior to mineral base motor oils. But this discussion is specifically about DI AR's...and not a lot of data exists on how motor oils behave in the environment.
Lastly, I live in Florida and I'm a cop. It was 84% humidity and 80 degrees F at 3am three nights ago. Rust is an enormous issue for me.
All multi-weight (XXW-XX) motor oils operate as a base oil with thickeners blended-in. The thickeners alter the viscosity of the motor oil based on temperature....they get THICKER with increases in oil temperature. This is a design goal to maintain a certain flow rate at very low start-up temps, yet maintain protection at normal operating temps.
Even the most extreme winter rated motor oils (0W-20 and such) will decrease in viscosity as temperature increases. The winterizing polymer additives slow the rate at which the viscosity decreases so that the cold viscosity is closer to the hot viscosity relative to a non winter rated or straight rated oil, but viscosity will always decrease with increasing temperature. This can be verified by looking at any of the information sheets that motor oil manufacturers show on their websites.
Another point of note is the extreme volatility of lighter weight motor oils such as 5-30. The standard PAO based synthetic oils, Mobil 1 and such, show a high degree of volatility in the Evaporative loss test. This test is conducted at 250C, which is not far off of what the BCGs of our ARs can see. If I recall correctly, 5/30 Mobil 1 had something like 60% loss. They no longer publish this data on their website, so I can't guarantee the accuracy of this. Something a little thicker or with a higher performance base stock that will not evaporate under heavy use is needed. I prefer Redline synthetics, but undoubtedly there are others that work as well.
I should have added that if I was at the range and I forgot my "gun" lube, I would use motor with absolutely no second thoughts. I just don't consider it the best use for that purpose in mind...
ra2bach: I should have added that if I was at the range and I forgot my "gun" lube, I would use motor with absolutely no second thoughts. I just don't consider it the best use for that purpose in mind... What do you think of the Cunningham article? Although he admits to being no expert, his reasoning seems solid, and he believes dextron type automatic transmission fluid (ATF) is superior to motor oils, having "good migration, a good boundary lubrication package, is the right weight (thickness) for general firearms use, doesn't oxidize over long periods of storage, and is compatible with a wide range of metals and plastics."
Motor oil, he says, are "(u)sually a boundary additive in some sort of light mineral oil carrier, they usually lack corrosion protection and often oxidize rapidly; some have poor migration characteristics and rely on the oil to which they'll be added to provide those things."
It would be great to see a test featuring something as easily available and cheap as ATF.
What do you think of the Cunningham article? Although he admits to being no expert, his reasoning seems solid, and he believes dextron type automatic transmission fluid (ATF) is superior to motor oils, having "good migration, a good boundary lubrication package, is the right weight (thickness) for general firearms use, doesn't oxidize over long periods of storage, and is compatible with a wide range of metals and plastics."
Motor oli, he says, are "(u)sually a boundary additive in some sort of light mineral oil carrier, they usually lack corrosion protection and often oxidize rapidly; some have poor migration characteristics and rely on the oil to which they'll be added to provide those things."
It would be great to see a test featuring something as easily available and cheap as ATF.
well, you made me go back and read it. I honestly think he's right - there is nothing new under the sun... but he does admit that the combination of these different components produce different results.
the article is interesting to me with the discussion of "boundary" properties because that's exactly the point that Weapon Shield raises its banner on. the maker of WS claims "improved" boundary film protection. I don't understand a word of this stuff but this article shows me he at least has the smarts to back up his claims...
http://www.steelshieldtech.com/mainpage/images/stories/pdfs/Boundary_Film_Lubrication.pdf
as for using ATF, years ago when shooting M1's in DCM (Department of Civilian Marksmanship - the forerunner of CMP), everyone was hot and lathered about making "Ed's Red"for cleaning, lube, etc... it was home made from Kerosene, lanolin, naptha, and got its red color from ATF. it was supposedly handed down from the gods and I made a gallon of it...
in my short time with it I found, it didn't clean as good Hoppe's #9 and it didn't seem to lube as good what I was using at the time. in fact, it sucked... but it was cheap and you could slather it on with a barber's brush which I suspect was the main benefit as I've never seen a bunch of old coots as tight-fisted as DCM shooters. I swear, if they could have found some way to re-use cleaning patches, they would...
then I found my way to bench-rest shooting and things started to get sane. these guys were using Shooters Choice and Sweets to clean with and there was never a topic of discussion on which Goodwill dumpster to scrounge in for which was the best fabric to cut into cleaning patches. none of these guys messed with Ed's Red or any home-made cleaning solutions and laughed at anyone who did.
so, long story short, ATF may work wonderfully but I see it as a non-moving target for the current lube makers to beat.
I have to ask myself, if after all this time and all the different formulations that serious people have tried to create and improve upon, if ATF is still the best we can do as a gun lube, I'd be shocked.
I'm not saying that WS is any better than EWL, or TW25, or Froglube, or any of the other new wave of lubes. but I have to believe that ALL of them are better than what we had available just a few years ago...
I agree. He appeared to mean that if you were planning on using something local in emergencies, choose ATF instead of motor oil. There were other things he liked better.
Oh, and thanks for the heads-up on "Ed's Red;" someone suggested it for cleaning accumulated gunk from a CMP carbine. With the warning, I decided to go easier, rather than home-made
I would never use ATF to lube any of may firearms unless it was absolutely necessary. It's one fluid that leaves a nasty taste in my mouth from it's fumes or skin contact. I hate working with the stuff for that reason
It wouldn't be my first choice, either, but as a choice between motor oil, which contains benzene products which store themselves in bone marrow and fat, or ATF, which irritates the skin, I'll take the ATF until I can replace it with something better.
Point taken. I should have mentioned I don't use motor oil for the same reason I don't use ATF. It's just I have a worse reaction with ATF
I have tested a ton of stuff. NOTHING! has beaten CLP for preventing corrosion. That includes Weaponshield, which slightly out-did FP-10, but it's a lubricant first and a preservative second, by far.
I just bought some Froglube and will see how that compares with CLP, but I am not expecting a coupe.
Heavy Metal
11-16-11, 09:29
I will tell you something cheap and old that will give CLP a run for its money in corrosion prevention: Ballistol
eternal24k
11-16-11, 09:56
I will tell you something cheap and old that will give CLP a run for its money in corrosion prevention: Ballistol
I absolutely love this stuff, smell is horrible but works great.
I have tested a ton of stuff. NOTHING! has beaten CLP for preventing corrosion. That includes Weaponshield, which slightly out-did FP-10, but it's a lubricant first and a preservative second, by far.
I just bought some Froglube and will see how that compares with CLP, but I am not expecting a coupe.
U ever try eezox?
... synthetic oils, Mobil 1 and such, show a high degree of volatility in the Evaporative loss test. This test is conducted at 250C, which is not far off of what the BCGs of our ARs can see.
Motor oil is basically toast at 150-180°C, so it's no wonder that most of it evaporates away at 250°C.
You expect your BCG to hit 250°C? Really? That's almost 500°F...
FWIW, I'm very satisfied with 15w50 as a gun oil...
SW-Shooter
11-16-11, 14:18
Has anyone used Royal Purple CLP long term?
saddlerocker
06-27-12, 20:16
Bit of a necro, I know
I added a bottle of the 30 weight to an order form DSGArms (still the only place I see offering it besides SLIP directly)
I really like it, but it is a bit more sticky/tacky, not just thicker.
Not sure how I feel about it yet.
At first it seemed great, but im not sure if thicker/tackier is necessary.
Anyone else try this recently and like it more than standard EWL?
Bit of a necro, I know
I added a bottle of the 30 weight to an order form DSGArms (still the only place I see offering it besides SLIP directly)
I really like it, but it is a bit more sticky/tacky, not just thicker.
Not sure how I feel about it yet.
At first it seemed great, but im not sure if thicker/tackier is necessary.
Anyone else try this recently and like it more than standard EWL?
I'll find out soon, just placed an order for EWL 30 and EWG grease. I've used the EWL off and on for some time now and while I like the way it lubes and stays wet I do not like the way it runs off, it seems too thin to me. As a result I have tried Mobil 1 in both 30 and 50 wt with good results. Now that the EWL is available in a 30 wt maybe I'll finally find lube bliss:blink:
I have used the original Slip, the EWL, and the EWL30, as well as god knows how many other wonder lubes that come and go with various promises of curing cancer and being endorsed by celebrities from forum types to DVD/Facebook types.
I use the 30 at home when cleaning or assembling guns. I also use their carbon cutter and 725. Yes the 30 still runs but it leaves a coating when it does, and if you put a very light coating instead of a blob it flows much less. I use the standard EWL at the range for adding lube when needed whether to my own guns or other people's because the lower viscosity makes it easier to apply.
The is no magic fairy dust lube. Don't leave your shit out in the rain for three weeks.
A couple of thoughts on the Slip EWL. I think it's thin to work the same way the old LSA used to work. Thin and keep things moving. Also EWL is water based so it's safe to touch, but not a good rust perventive.
A couple of thoughts on the Slip EWL. I think it's thin to work the same way the old LSA used to work. Thin and keep things moving. Also EWL is water based so it's safe to touch, but not a good rust perventive.
http://www.slip2000.com/FAQs.php?category=top10&p94xtys=12#12
Are your gun lubricants water based?
No. This is a common mistake. Although all of our gun cleaners are water based our gun lubricants are not water based.
Sorry I'm wrong. Their Cleaners are water based, But not their oils.
See my other post. Slip is offering 10% off on Value packs till the 4th.
Good time to try out this great product.
The is no magic fairy dust lube. Don't leave your shit out in the rain for three weeks.
Quoted....for truth :D
Sorry to dig up this thread, but i'd love any updates people have had in the meantime. I actually joined this forum purely on the respect and sensible discussions in this thread.
Obscenejesster
05-22-14, 22:07
I stay away from Grease and I've never had an issue with EWL. I use a light coating after cleaning and before storing the rifle and then before I shoot it again, I reapply another thin coating to the BCG. It's never failed me.
I've been a EWL user for years...experimenting now with the EWL30, and also trying out the grease on the slide rails on on pistols. Looks promising.
Iv'e been using Froglube for a while and i do like it's properties. I started looking into this again recently when Seal1 came up, along with the link to getting froglube on mechanisms and having it go a little syrupy in very cold weather.
I just bought some Slip2000 EWG (i love the idea of non toxic etc) for the knuckle on my shotgun, but i think i'm going to try it on anything that slides.
For the mechs, i decided to get some Slip2000 EWL30, i liked the comment about it running out of the BGC when stood in storage, hence the 30.
Froglube seems to have pretty good barrier protection factor, and i'm continuing to use it as an general cover all, in place of an oily rag over the exterior surfaces of weapons. I can also use it for magazines (inside included) Still very curious to see if Seal1 is any better.
I still love how it lubes pistol slides, but i do think grease might be a better choice, particularly on bolt guns etc that don't get so warm to begin with (froglube needs the heat)
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