View Full Version : Optics Recommendations?
I just, an hour ago, finished my first complete build of an M4 and want to get some decent optics for it. I'm looking for something that is faster and kind to older eyes. Right now I have a cheap Simmons 2-7x32 scope mounted in Burris Extreme Tactical rings, just so I can take it to the range and get an idea of how it's shooting. I do have a nice older Leupold 3X M8 scope that I can use on it. Would that work well or am I better off with a holosight or red dot? I'm not exactly looking for sub-MOA pinpoint target accuracy as much as I'm looking for speed on target. I'm not a rich man, but I can always save up for whatever I need.
Thanks,
Don
For speed and decent accuracy Ive always been a fan of the Aimpoint red dot. Try to get one with the 2moa dot to help with accurate shooting.
lots of people like the Eotech but I have seen them break and stop working several times. I have heard the more expensive ones are more robust though.
Spurholder
08-06-10, 19:56
Strong plug for Aimpoint's T-1 (or H-1 if you don't want the night vision settings). I've had one for about two years now. It has all the strengths that Aimpoint's known for, and in a package that's significantly lighter than their other optics.
By the way, I don't notice the tube when I'm shooting.
Eotech. That's going to be best bang for buck. They are the fastest on target, and likely most accurate as they have a 1 MOA dot, and you wouldn't be looking down a tube to see your target.
Look at the XPS and EXPS lines. $479 for the XPS, $495 for the EXPS OPMOD at Optics Planet.
To get lower 1/3 co-witness with an Eotech you are going to need a riser. I have a LaRue under my duty rifle's 552 and like it a lot. For that kind of cost to get an Eotech "fixed" I recommend just buying a T-1 on a LaRue riser since you'll be at that price point anyway. The T-1 will hold zero and you won't be buying batteries.
DaBears_85
08-06-10, 20:46
To get lower 1/3 co-witness with an Eotech you are going to need a riser. I have a LaRue under my duty rifle's 552 and like it a lot. For that kind of cost to get an Eotech "fixed" I recommend just buying a T-1 on a LaRue riser since you'll be at that price point anyway. The T-1 will hold zero and you won't be buying batteries.
Yeah that's the only downside to an EOTech, in my opinion. If you use lithium batteries it helps improve battery life a little. I prefer center co-witness but if you don't I guess that could be considered another downside. Personally, I love my 512.
To get lower 1/3 co-witness with an Eotech you are going to need a riser. I have a LaRue under my duty rifle's 552 and like it a lot. For that kind of cost to get an Eotech "fixed" I recommend just buying a T-1 on a LaRue riser since you'll be at that price point anyway. The T-1 will hold zero and you won't be buying batteries.
$495 OPMOD has the quick-detach mount and the 7mm riser for lower-third co-witness. T-1 and co-witnessing mount at Larue is $150 more. NOT a good value by comparison.
Batteries are cheap.
We have had a lot of issues with our Eotechs. Use good batteries. Cheap batteries do not like the impact/vibration of select fire and begin to leak, ruining the Eotech battery compartment. Ours seem to lose zero with great degree of regularity. They also seem to die at the time you really need them; carry lots of batteries. Big, clunky, and heavy, there are better options out there. Like Aimpoint says, " your next battery hasn't been made yet".
DaBears_85
08-06-10, 21:01
We have had a lot of issues with our Eotechs. Use good batteries. Cheap batteries do not like the impact/vibration of select fire and begin to leak, ruining the Eotech battery compartment. Ours seem to lose zero with great degree of regularity. They also seem to die at the time you really need them; carry lots of batteries. Big, clunky, and heavy, there are better options out there. Like Aimpoint says, " your next battery hasn't been made yet".
I could see dying when you need them being a downside :)
By "we" I'm assuming you're a LEO, and that your department uses them? Point being, it wasn't an isolated incident? You've had/seen several fail?
The Eotech is our agency issued optic. Policy keeps us from swapping it out or there would be an Aimpoint on mine. I just built a rifle for my wife and put a LaRue T-1 package on it for her. Very nice!
We have had a lot of issues with our Eotechs. Use good batteries. Cheap batteries do not like the impact/vibration of select fire and begin to leak, ruining the Eotech battery compartment. Ours seem to lose zero with great degree of regularity. They also seem to die at the time you really need them; carry lots of batteries. Big, clunky, and heavy, there are better options out there. Like Aimpoint says, " your next battery hasn't been made yet".
I noticed a battery issue with my eotech also. I had the 512 and it came with Engergizer Industrials...they are lithiums(as you probably know). When I replaced them with Energizer Alkalines, they seemed to take a rather progressive nose dive.
There is a ton of good info in the stickies under optics. The T1 is nice but if you are like me and don't need night vision compatibility or the extra waterproof depth protection the H1 will save you money. It is not subdued but you could paint it if you wanted too.
What do you mean by old eyes? Do you need magnification?
Had two Es and sold both of them. Battery life was the issue for me. Fiddling with a button at 0300 is not my idea of being ready. The Aimpoint T-1 does not have this issue.
DaBears_85
08-06-10, 21:42
For what it's worth, I've never had any problems with my 512 other than the battery life. Durability or not maintaining zero has been a non-issue for me. I once had some jackass knock over my rifle pretty hard on the concrete. I picked it up and sure enough it still worked and was still zeroed.
All that aside, if I had to do it over again I'd go with the Aimpoint H-1. :)
Our Eotech equipped rifles are "trunk guns". They get moved in and out of vehicles regularly; they get bumped around. I would call this normal use. That said, I would expect more from an optic marketed to that market.
Nugentforoffice
08-06-10, 22:21
To get lower 1/3 co-witness with an Eotech you are going to need a riser. I have a LaRue under my duty rifle's 552 and like it a lot. For that kind of cost to get an Eotech "fixed" I recommend just buying a T-1 on a LaRue riser since you'll be at that price point anyway. The T-1 will hold zero and you won't be buying batteries.
If buying a riser for an Eotech is "fixing" it as you stated, isn't buying a riser for the T-1, as you suggested, considered "fixing" it? Just sayin
If buying a riser for an Eotech is "fixing" it as you stated, isn't buying a riser for the T-1, as you suggested, considered "fixing" it? Just sayin
:D
.
DaBears_85
08-06-10, 22:55
Our Eotech equipped rifles are "trunk guns". They get moved in and out of vehicles regularly; they get bumped around. I would call this normal use. That said, I would expect more from an optic marketed to that market.
Good point. So in an ideal world, what optic would you have your agency equip?
fullmetalredhead
08-12-10, 15:15
what is your budget?
I'd get Aimpoint T1 or H1. Light weight, compact size, longer battery life.
I just need to find good place to buy.
I got my Aimpoint T-1/LaRue Mount from here:
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=PKGS
The C3/ADM Package with the High Mount and 2 moa dot was what I first looked at to save money, but I came up with the $$$ for the T-1 Package Deal anyhow. I am completely satisfied with the purchase and the customer service of the company.
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Have you looked on the equipment exchange board? There were two T1's in LaRue high mounts one for$ 495 and the other for$ 500. I always look there first.
"Good point. So in an ideal world, what optic would you have your agency equip? "
Aimpoint Comp M4s.
crusader377
08-12-10, 22:53
The C3/ADM Package with the High Mount and 2 moa dot was what I first looked at to save money
I have this set up and IMO it is a great value for the money. It is the most affordable of the current aimpoints yet it still is very durable and reliable with an excellent battery life.
Aimpoint all the way. For those who know how to use them with both eyes open it is NOT like looking down a tube. You do not notice the optic at all and you see the dot floating out in front of you where ever you look. It is VERY FAST and you can opt for a very lightweight small T1 with a 4 MOA dot or a bargain price on the M3 with 2 or 4 MOA dot or go all out and get the M4S with a 2 MOA dot put one AA battery in it and forget about it. They are more rugged than an Eotec anyday.
kaltesherz
08-13-10, 00:05
Yet another suggestion for Aimpoint, EOtech's may have improved over the years but they're still not as durable nor have the battery life of Aimpoints. While the T1/H1 are the bees knees, don't dismiss older M2/M3/C3 models are well. For mounts Larue and Bobro are the way to go.
I've got an M3 on Larue LT-150 which offers 1/3 co-witness, QD w/ return to zero, and even an extra battery compartment and I couldn't be happier. I keep it on all the time and never worry about the battery dying... I'll probably rotate batteries every couple years as I have a bunch lying around.
What evidence do you have that current Eotechs still have reliability issues? Other than old anecdotes from "guys who heard from guys who knows someone who had a problem with an Eotech a couple of years ago", I just don't see it...especially in view of my own set of Eotech anecdotes which run to the contrary.
MY anecdotes suggest that the Eotech reticle and non-tube window (better usability and better accuracy) in conjunction with the much lower cost makes the Eotech sights a better buy.
IOW, I reject your reality and substitute my own. ;)
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Hmac,
I am talking about the 100+ Eotech equiped M4's that we are CURRENTY fielding. 20 of these rifles were newly issued THIS YEAR. The problems that I am referring to are happening NOW. These are issue rilfes, moved around daily, and fired quartery at a minimium. The SRT carbines are fired monthly. These are not rifles that sit in safes and go to the range once a year or every six months so their "reality" might be a bit different than yours.
Ken
Hmac,
I am talking about the 100+ Eotech equiped M4's that we are CURRENTY fielding. 20 of these rifles were newly issued THIS YEAR. The problems that I am referring to are happening NOW. These are issue rilfes, moved around daily, and fired quartery at a minimium. The SRT carbines are fired monthly. These are not rifles that sit in safes and go to the range once a year or every six months so their "reality" might be a bit different than yours.
Ken
Agreed. I appreciate you amplifying your experience. Anecdotal evidence doesn't need to always be rejected out-of-hand, but one always needs to evaluate its validity, especially when it comes from the Internet.
What evidence do you have that current Eotechs still have reliability issues? .
The primary-source guys that dismiss EOTech unreliability reports are generally guys who can simply step up to an armory window and simply ask for another one. They don't tend to look at actual instances of failure held up against, say, a population of 6000+ rifles and those devices issued as a combo and see 20+% of the optics go down. All they know is their own story.
I see armory inventories in which the EOTech redundancy is 30%, whereas ACOG/Aimpoint redundancy is often less than 12%. Those redundancies are there so that a fresh optic can be handed out when one comes in for repair, so if you need more on-hand to swap vs. another optic within the same weapon population, that's what's known in investigative circles as "a clue."
In those instances in which those devices go down, it may be an easy fix. That's not the same as reliable, just that it's easy to swap parts. Relaible means not having to swap parts or bend battery contct points in the first place.
Hell, I just got a 552 that's been left alone for about 2yrs; no corrosion, springs appear to be okay, yadda yadda. Does it work? Of course not. Since I got it for free, so we'll see what a new battery box and contacts will do for it before I take it to a 2171. That thing ain't going on a go-to gun, I can guarantee that.
Keep an eye on the XPS varaints, though. They look like they may level the field somewhat.
kaltesherz
08-13-10, 11:25
What evidence do you have that current Eotechs still have reliability issues? Other than old anecdotes from "guys who heard from guys who knows someone who had a problem with an Eotech a couple of years ago", I just don't see it...especially in view of my own set of Eotech anecdotes which run to the contrary.
MY anecdotes suggest that the Eotech reticle and non-tube window (better usability and better accuracy) in conjunction with the much lower cost makes the Eotech sights a better buy.
IOW, I reject your reality and substitute my own. ;)
.
My Company started out with 15-12 and in a short amount of time most were deadlined, many without even being used, others with minimal usage. My Platoon had 3 or 4 and only two of them worked, one of our SAW gunners decided he wanted to try one and in short order we had ZERO working EO Techs. Eventually we were able to swap enough parts to get one working again but by that time no one wanted anything to do with them. We used our gear pretty hard, and yes sometimes Aimpoints and ACOGs would go TU but it was fairly rare, EOTechs seem to make it SOP. So no... I didn't just read it online... but there's a lot of other first person stories on this forum and Lightfighter that are remarkably similar to mine.
Failure2Stop
08-13-10, 11:32
Here's my recommendation based off of major feature:
Cost:
1-Aimpoint C3
2-Aimpoint H1
Eye-position forgiveness:
1-EoTech EXPS
2-None
3-Aimpoint 30mm tube optics
Use with Magnifier:
1-EoTech EXPS
2-Aimpoint 2 MOA models
3-T1/H1
Robustness:
1-Aimpoint CompM4
2-Aimpoint 30mm Tubes
3-Aimpoint T1/H1
Weight
1-Aimpoint T1/H1
2-None
3-Eotech XPS (EXPS w/integral mount if desire lower 1/3 cowitness)
Battery Life
1-Aimpoint Comp M4
2-Aimpoint Comp M3
3-Aimpoint T1/H1
Battery Availability
1- Aimpoint Comp M4 (AA)
2- EoTech EXPS/XPS (CR123)
3- None
Reticle Preference
1-EoTech 2-dot with 65 MOA ring
2-EoTech single dot with ring
3-Aimpoint 2 MOA
4-Aimpoint 3 MOA (T1/H1)
Reticle Clarity (for those with astigmatism and such)
1-Aimpoint 2 MOA
2-EoTech (All)
3-Aimpoint 3 MOA
(This is fairly subjective based off of individual issue, but this is what it seems to me to be)
So find which optic ranks in the areas that matter to you, or ranks the highest in the category you care most about.
arizonaranchman
08-13-10, 14:52
"Good point. So in an ideal world, what optic would you have your agency equip? "
Aimpoint Comp M4s.
That's what my agency uses. Very rugged sight and we've been very pleased with them... 16" M&P15 with the M4s sight and Troy BUIS.
Failure2stop,
That was a great comparison. I think it is worthy of a sticky. Many folks have the same questions.
Aimpoint all the way. Had an Eotech, battery life sucked, adjustments sucked, wash out in bright Florida sun sucked. ymmv.
I've had the T1 its nice, but I've gone all M4s (x6):) I like the larger fov. battery placement and adjustment placement the best.
My last remaining Eotech is a 553. It's not on anything. My main issue with the Eotech vs Aimpoint is that I carry my AR up front with me for an entire shift. My shifts can run anywhere from 8hrs. to 12 or 16 hrs. I do not want my optic off at any time. I moved away from the Eo's primarily because of the auto shut off feature.
Nothing I want less than bailing out of my car in a hurry only to find the sight has auto shut down at 4 or 8 hrs. Thankfully I researched long ago and moved to the "always on" Aimpoints and every time I've needed the rifle I've had it in hand and on target far faster than any of my co workers and their various Eotechs.
While the battery life and ruggedness are absolute pluses for me it's the continuous "on" capability that was the deciding factor.
Nugentforoffice
08-18-10, 07:17
I've noticed that Trijicons are rarely in these debates. Why is that? They seem like great products.
They are, but between the fact that most folks don't need magnification most of the time and the price....
You'll see them brought up more often when people are to take longer shots more often than not but still need/want something like RDS capability for 50m-and-in shots.
Failure2Stop
08-18-10, 16:22
I've noticed that Trijicons are rarely in these debates. Why is that? They seem like great products.
What Trijicon products are you talking about?
They have several lines, but the products that are the most comparable are the Tri-Power and the Reflex.
When it comes down to it, it's hard to make a claim that they are the equal of the Aimpoints or EoTechs that dominate this segment of the market. They have a small user group, and most people with experience on these offerings merrily switch to a different optic once exposed to them.
The Accupoint 1-4x offerings are very cost-effective, but are about one and a half times the cost of the 1X aimpoints or eotechs. Not a deal-killer, but are usually left out of the conversation since they fall into the low-powered variable class of optics.
Aimpoint. C3 2 moa w/ a bobro or ADM mount, will be the best value. I would suggest a 2 moa if you plan on using a magnifier, best to look through them though and decide for yourself. I am really partial to the 2 moa dot, and before someone says well the t1/h1 is more like 3 or 3.5, its not a 2 moa and thats what i prefer. If they made the t1/h1 in an actual 2 moa i would be all over it. That being said, go with the C3, an ML3/M3, or an M4, T1/H1. You can't go wrong with any aimpoint really!
I used a Trijicon Reflex years ago, in fact it was my first optic. But the dot washes out badly in bright sunlight and the glass is far too dark for my liking in lowlight/night time.
But, it was accurate, long lasting, and rugged enough. If looking through it was the same as looking through and Aimpoint I'd probably still be using it.
buckshot1220
08-18-10, 21:14
I'm a die hard Aimpoint guy, however, I have no problem admitting that the EOTech reticle is nothing short of amazing. If both optics shared the same battery life, reliability/durability etc., then I'd be all over the EOTech.
That being said, they are vastly different. The Aimpoints have far better battery life (even in the older models) and have far fewer reports of problems in the field. The EOTech's auto-off feature is also something I cannot deal with. I too shoot two eyes open, so I don't see the tube when aiming. I have both the T-1 and M4. Both are excellent optics, but the T-1 is really growing on me and a second one will probably find it's way onto my next build.
To the OP, both the EOTech and Aimpoint are excellent choices. I will never bash the EOTech, it just isn't for me. If you need magnification look into the respective magnifiers for each or look to the Baskin Robbins-like array of ACOG's, I'm sure there will be a flavor for you.
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