View Full Version : Gunsmithing vs. ARs?
Complication
08-07-10, 20:57
The other week I was looking around for someone to do some light gunsmithing on my AR-15. I asked at my local range and they said there was a gunsmith right down the road. So I called him up to ask if he could do what I wanted. He said, "Oh, we don't really carry too many AR-15 parts." I thanked him for his time and hung up.
I got what I needed elsewhere, but a gunsmith (who works on rifles plenty, according to the guys at the range) who apparently doesn't do a whole lot of work with AR's really surprised me. It seems to me that they're one of the most common rifles out there (and pretty easy to work with). It'd be one thing if he specialized in 1911s or pistols in general or foreign guns or WWI/II era guns or something, but it struck me as very odd.**
Is it perhaps most common than I think for dedicated gunsmiths (as in that's what they do for a living, not just the guy at the back of the gun shop who can put night sights on your glock)? Or is it a clue that perhaps he's not all that qualified to be doing what he's doing or not especially competent?
**Up whereabouts I live, pistols seem more common than rifles, but I've seen more than enough AR-15s at the range (mostly POS's) that they HAVE to break down and have to get fixed SOMEWHERE around here.
What work did you need to have done?
pilotguyo540
08-07-10, 21:24
Yes, the 3 important questions:
What do you need done? (Already covered, but this way we know, when we claim its easy enough a cave man can do it, what we are talking about.)
Where do you live? (Perhaps a forum member may come to your rescue with a suggestion of a good gunsmith, or an open garage and the tools and experience you lack)
Who are the people in your tag line? (I have been laughing about that for 2 or 3 days)
I wouldn't be so quick to judge the gunsmith. He is probably old school. I know a lot of the old timers who don't care for these new fangled plastic guns. Anything semi auto is blaspheme to those guys...except the Garand of course.
uscbigdawg
08-07-10, 21:26
Let's be honest too. It's not like working on AR's is rocket surgery. A great riflesmith here doesn't touch AR's because it's not his type of work and stocking parts is more trouble than it's worth.
He builds some sick tack driving rifles though.
Rich
Complication
08-07-10, 21:57
Yes, the 3 important questions
1) I needed a buffer retainer replaced (easy enough, but I wanted my castle nut tightened and staked properly afterwards).
2) I live up in Cleveland which means Glocks are considered incredibly expensive guns and Bushmaster/DPMS is what you buy when you're rolling in the money.
3) Grant (C4IGrant) and Sgt. Watson of the Tuscarawas county Sheriff's Dept. At the latest Defensive Carbine 101 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53109) Ben said, "You guys wanna see something gay?" ready to share some of the queer-ass range commands/call-outs he was forced to do at training session the other week (and holy shit it was gayer than a unicorn wearing spandex on roller skates). Immediately after he said that Grant chimes in from behind me: "Oh, I love gay things!" He had been giving me a hard time earlier (in jest) so I told him I was making it my new sig. And I did.
Complication
08-07-10, 21:58
A great riflesmith here doesn't touch AR's because it's not his type of work and stocking parts is more trouble than it's worth.
That would make sense. Although I seriously doubt that was the case here. Not much demand for high-end, super-quality rifles around these parts.
Putting an AR together is easier than putting together a Lego toy designed for a 6 year old. And yes, I have tried both. :p
That did not quite come out right. Lego toys for 6 year olds are pretty difficult IMO.
Complication
08-07-10, 22:13
That did not quite come out right. Lego toys for 6 year olds are pretty difficult IMO.
Legos these days have too many custom parts. I remember back in the day when we had only 3 bricks and 2 colors and we liked it, dammit.
I know a really good smith locally who almost never works on ARs. He has some parts and will do work if it comes across his bench, but it is very rare. He doesn't have any special AR knowledge (compared to 1911s for example), but working on an AR-15 is exceptionally easy.
thopkins22
08-07-10, 23:58
I'm getting to the point where I trust myself more than many gunsmiths for most AR/Glock related things.
Certainly there are guys out there with knowledge and skill that make me look grossly incompetent. But I'm not restoring guns, doing revolver action jobs, or barrel crowns...things I have no clue about. I know what torque I want, I know how I want things staked, and beyond that there isn't a whole lot of voodoo to anything AR related.
Hey, if he passed on it, be thankful. Sounds like he's just being honest. To me, thats somebody who may be a decent gunsmith in their own area. I've seen 2 gunsmiths that would take any job even when they knew they had no idea what they were doing, but they weren't going to pass on the job. I had a guy jack-up a 1911 one time, when I brought it back and politely/modestly said WTF? the guy said "oh, well these aren't really my thing, I build custom bolt rifles". Ok, but that would have been nice to hear up front.
I'll have to somewhat disagree with some of the posts here. Yes, many people can assemble an AR. Especially when it's dropping a lower onto a receiver (complete or stripped).
However, we have also seen enough posts of those who have had issues getting the barrel nut on correctly.
We have seen those who have chopped barrels and thrown on ridiculously long flash hiders to obtain some "look" only to find out it won't run because of gas port issues.
Endplates on backwards or not staked.
Incorrect assembly of the fire control parts.
I am sure I could go on. And let's not forget that the selection of parts is probably one of the most critical things. If you start with crap you will end up with crap.
Think about how many posts we have had where someone built an SBR and they experienced failure of the bolt to lock back after the last round, or other issues. Some of which could be solved by using a different buffer.
So is it really that easy to build one or work on one? Is it really that easy to make it run correctly? Sometimes.
So is it really that easy to build one or work on one? Is it really that easy to make it run correctly? Sometimes.
I would agree with that. I have no idea how to make a non-standard configuration work. A buddy of mine has built all sorts of weird AR stuff, such as a 220 Swift AR10, a .510" wildcat on an AR10, .300 Whisper on an AR15, etc. The guns go bang. They absolutely do NOT feed correctly. He will not admit that a different magazine design is necessary when the case geometry changes. Nor does he have any idea how to modify the feed ramps to work with different cartridges. Gas issues? Forget it. Now that I have seen a bunch of his projects I have concluded that he is in the business of ruining barrels and receivers.
In my experience, many traditional "smiths" are "fudds" who, while pretty decent with a Remchester, look down their noses at ARs (or any EBR - FALs, HKs, AKs, etc.). I've run into some that, if it wasn't designed by John Browning or carry his name, they don't deem it worthy of their attention.
For someone with basic mechanical skills, it isn't all that difficult to assemble an AR if you do some research, stick with properly spec'd parts and don't go trying to "improve" the operating system. Stepping outside the common AR calibers takes a bit more skill.
thopkins22
08-08-10, 01:59
So is it really that easy to build one or work on one? Is it really that easy to make it run correctly? Sometimes.
I think the key for folks is to be able to recognize when they are dipping their toes into the deep end. There's plenty I won't attempt...but I feel comfortable torquing and staking the castle nut like the OP was talking about.
1) I needed a buffer retainer replaced (easy enough, but I wanted my castle nut tightened and staked properly afterwards).
2) I live up in Cleveland which means Glocks are considered incredibly expensive guns and Bushmaster/DPMS is what you buy when you're rolling in the money.
3) Grant (C4IGrant) and Sgt. Watson of the Tuscarawas county Sheriff's Dept. At the latest Defensive Carbine 101 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53109) Ben said, "You guys wanna see something gay?" ready to share some of the queer-ass range commands/call-outs he was forced to do at training session the other week (and holy shit it was gayer than a unicorn wearing spandex on roller skates). Immediately after he said that Grant chimes in from behind me: "Oh, I love gay things!" He had been giving me a hard time earlier (in jest) so I told him I was making it my new sig. And I did.
Well, it sounds like a trip to Grant's shop may in order... Just a thought..Top Gun Supply..www.topgunsupply.com is not far from the Cleveland area, While I don't think he works on AR's, he DOES sell them and may know of someone who can work on them that may be closer, other than that, I'd just drive to Grant's shop...There's no guess work there, Grant knows what he's doing..
Erratikmind
08-08-10, 10:43
The other week I was looking around for someone to do some light gunsmithing on my AR-15. I asked at my local range and they said there was a gunsmith right down the road. So I called him up to ask if he could do what I wanted. He said, "Oh, we don't really carry too many AR-15 parts." I thanked him for his time and hung up.
I got what I needed elsewhere, but a gunsmith (who works on rifles plenty, according to the guys at the range) who apparently doesn't do a whole lot of work with AR's really surprised me. It seems to me that they're one of the most common rifles out there (and pretty easy to work with). It'd be one thing if he specialized in 1911s or pistols in general or foreign guns or WWI/II era guns or something, but it struck me as very odd.**
Is it perhaps most common than I think for dedicated gunsmiths (as in that's what they do for a living, not just the guy at the back of the gun shop who can put night sights on your glock)? Or is it a clue that perhaps he's not all that qualified to be doing what he's doing or not especially competent?
**Up whereabouts I live, pistols seem more common than rifles, but I've seen more than enough AR-15s at the range (mostly POS's) that they HAVE to break down and have to get fixed SOMEWHERE around here.
Really!? . . . That is quite an interesting observation on your part.
I've been a Remington 700/1100/870 armorer, Ruger armorer and now a Glock armorer. I've put together an AR lower from parts and done work on two other AR's in my safe. There are times that someone has asked me to work on a weapon and I will either do so or if I don't feel like it then I will pass. Maybe the gunsmith is not into the AR thing and has enough business already. The good thing is that someone out there has a passion for the AR, has the tools and ability to help you out. Just keep looking.
Putting together ARs is not like putting together legos. If you think otherwise, look at the troubleshooting forums and posts from time to time. It isn't rocket science, but it's easy to screw up too if you don't know what you don't know.
Complication
08-08-10, 17:33
Really!? . . . That is quite an interesting observation on your part.
The implication that shearing the buffer retainer out of stupidity on my part says anything about the quality of my gear is clever. You should congratulate yourself on your wit. Well done, sir.
Complication
08-08-10, 17:35
There are times that someone has asked me to work on a weapon and I will either do so or if I don't feel like it then I will pass. Maybe the gunsmith is not into the AR thing and has enough business already.
That hadn't occurred to me but makes quite a bit of sense.
The implication that shearing the buffer retainer out of stupidity on my part says anything about the quality of my gear is clever. You should congratulate yourself on your wit. Well done, sir.
In your original quote he made bold the POS (POS) part so I think he was talking about your observation that the other guns were POS.
Complication
08-08-10, 20:29
In your original quote he made bold the POS (POS) part so I think he was talking about your observation that the other guns were POS.
It sounded like a snide remark regarding the fact that my rifle broke.
Frankly the other guns are POS. It happens to be that people around these parts that I've seen don't tend to put any sort of money into their guns, or they do so by buying useless junk. You know, the kind of stuff you see at gun shows: Chinese crap and airsoft parts.
I've seen people work ARs by racking the charging handle every shot because their gun doesn't cycle, people who build slings out of stuff they got at home depot (ever seen a quick detach sling apparently built using parts from a dog leash?), and a guy who didn't understand why his $50 red dot kept falling off his gun--after all, he ended up supergluing the mount to the rails and superglue works just fine on metal, right?
A lot of the guns that come into the ranges around here are junk. Fact. The observation served to point out that a lot of shit seems to break and people have to get it fixed somewhere because they certainly don't have the money to throw at another bargain-bin Taurus or Hi-Point every 6 months. It also served to point out that there's not a lot of money in guns around here. Maybe those two observations would give folks an idea of the lay of the land so that they could intelligently respond.
I don't see how remarking about how I observed that a lot of guns I see are junk is interesting--unless it was a facetious remark.
3) Grant (C4IGrant) and Sgt. Watson of the Tuscarawas county Sheriff's Dept. At the latest Defensive Carbine 101 (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=53109) Ben said, "You guys wanna see something gay?" ready to share some of the queer-ass range commands/call-outs he was forced to do at training session the other week (and holy shit it was gayer than a unicorn wearing spandex on roller skates). Immediately after he said that Grant chimes in from behind me: "Oh, I love gay things!" He had been giving me a hard time earlier (in jest) so I told him I was making it my new sig. And I did.
Me give someone a hard time?? Doubtful. :dirol:
Gunsmith's and AR. The two do not meet (commonly). The old school gunsmiths are a disapearing group. Why? The interest in having bolt gun, shotgun or whatever work done is dwindling. Couple that with the fact that gunsmiths are generally not changing with the times (for whatever reasons).
Building AR's isn't hard. Knowing where to get quality parts and how to install them properly is.
People often times get a little knowledge off the errornet or a buddy. This little bit of knowledge gets them in trouble as they feel they konw what they are doing.
VERY FEW FFL's stock any parts for the AR. Even fewer know anything about installing them. Remember this the next time you go to your local "gunsmith/FFL" for parts/help with your AR.
C4
Complication
08-08-10, 20:48
VERY FEW FFL's stock any parts for the AR's. Even fewer know anything about installing them. Remember this the next time you go to your local "gunsmith/FFL" for parts/help with your AR.
I was going to go to this place a little ways south of me called G&R something-or-other but I have it on good authority that he doesn't know an AR from an SKS.
While you're busy not giving anyone a hard time: out of curiosity, what's the C4I mean?
I was going to go to this place a little ways south of me called G&R something-or-other but I have it on good authority that he doesn't know an AR from an SKS.
While you're busy not giving anyone a hard time: out of curiosity, what's the C4I mean?
Don't go there. Their village is looking for them. :jester:
C4I stands for Command, Control, Computers, Communication and Intelligence. It is what I did in my past life.
C4
Heavy Metal
08-08-10, 21:55
Last time I showed-up at Grants, he had his busiest shop day of the year not including the stuff I bought!
Erratikmind
08-09-10, 00:03
It sounded like a snide remark regarding the fact that my rifle broke.
Frankly the other guns are POS. It happens to be that people around these parts that I've seen don't tend to put any sort of money into their guns, or they do so by buying useless junk. You know, the kind of stuff you see at gun shows: Chinese crap and airsoft parts.
I've seen people work ARs by racking the charging handle every shot because their gun doesn't cycle, people who build slings out of stuff they got at home depot (ever seen a quick detach sling apparently built using parts from a dog leash?), and a guy who didn't understand why his $50 red dot kept falling off his gun--after all, he ended up supergluing the mount to the rails and superglue works just fine on metal, right?
A lot of the guns that come into the ranges around here are junk. Fact. The observation served to point out that a lot of shit seems to break and people have to get it fixed somewhere because they certainly don't have the money to throw at another bargain-bin Taurus or Hi-Point every 6 months. It also served to point out that there's not a lot of money in guns around here. Maybe those two observations would give folks an idea of the lay of the land so that they could intelligently respond.
I don't see how remarking about how I observed that a lot of guns I see are junk is interesting--unless it was a facetious remark.
No offense was offered. I trust none was taken.
I simply found your comment interesting for the mere fact of my own personal standard(s) when observing others, which is relative to everything in life, as was taught to my adult children and is to my grandson. I am blessed with the ability to afford my family and myself with the essential daily needs and beyond. As such, I do understand and fully appreciate and attempt to be aware others' situations in life.
In a different light, but same context . . . Not everyone can afford a fine European sedan. However, a used, hard driven, mechanically challenged vehicle is no better or lesser than my vehicle . . . And I am in no position to judge otherwise.
I comprehend, "Crap in, crap out", for the lack of a better term, like most people on God's green earth. Yet, one families' leftovers is another families' feast.
Perhaps, the said may or may not shed some light for my previous comment. If not, I offer no apologies . . . For any perceived ill intentions on my part towards you are merely perceived on your part . . . And for you to settle/resolve on your time.
My apologies to the rest of the community for any inappropriate conduct.
- Andy (S.F. Bay Area)
pilotguyo540
08-09-10, 02:29
No offense was offered. I trust none was taken.
I simply found your comment interesting for the mere fact of my own personal standard(s) when observing others, which is relative to everything in life, as was taught to my adult children and is to my grandson. I am blessed with the ability to afford my family and myself with the essential daily needs and beyond. As such, I do understand and fully appreciate and attempt to be aware others' situations in life.
In a different light, but same context . . . Not everyone can afford a fine European sedan. However, a used, hard driven, mechanically challenged vehicle is no better or lesser than my vehicle . . . And I am in no position to judge otherwise.
I comprehend, "Crap in, crap out", for the lack of a better term, like most people on God's green earth. Yet, one families' leftovers is another families' feast.
Perhaps, the said may or may not shed some light for my previous comment. If not, I offer no apologies . . . For any perceived ill intentions on my part towards you are merely perceived on your part . . . And for you to settle/resolve on your time.
My apologies to the rest of the community for any inappropriate conduct.
- Andy (S.F. Bay Area)
I just wasted 20 minutes of my life trying to figure out how this conversation went down hill. On this forum people focus on quality first and foremost. Calling something crap is 100% justified when this tool is meant to defend your family. I bought a POS before I knew better. Thanks to the good folks here, I have seen the error of my ignorant way. Some people may have a hard time affording a top tier rifle. Honestly, they should keep saving until it is possible. I am dropping another 600 dollars to bring my gun up to par and get it battle ready. If I would have spent another 100 dollars in the start I would already be there. This is not the place for a tear jerk love fest for those less fortunate. Those hippy ideals are what give the rest of us californians a bad name. Poke around here long enough and you too can learn the way. This place is awesome. Relax and enjoy
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