Pat Condell on Ground Zero Mosque [Archive]

No.6

08-08-10, 21:31

Forwarded the video link to a good friend of mine. He responded with the following email:

I have thought about this a lot. I am going to forward the link to the video to several friends, along with my point of view.

I thought I would forward this link for your viewing pleasure. It is about the proposed Mosque that it looks like they are going to build 2 blocks from WTC ground zero. I admit I have had conflicting views about this subject. And I don't want the horror of 9/11 to force us change or even compromise our long held and sacred views about religious freedom in this country. But history clearly tells us that Muslims have a history of building Mosques on conquered territories and usually right on top of their conquered victims ravaged synagogues and churches. There us no doubt in my mind that this Mosque is NOT being built to honor the 9/11 victims. But are we to sacrifice our beliefs in freedom of religion to stop the construction of the Mosque? NO, we should not sacrifice or compromise, in any way, our religious freedoms in the US. But I no longer look at this Mosque as a religious symbol. And neither do the Muslims. Muslims world wide look at this Mosque as a purely political statement on behalf of the Muslims. They will view it as a sign of their conquest, their victory, so to speak. It is a political statement in the guise of a religious symbol. And that is how we should view it as well. I think it needs to be stopped. The line in the sand needs to be drawn right here, right now.

Thanks OP for the link. One, or hopefully many more sets of eyes will hopefully see this for what it is.

parishioner

08-08-10, 21:50

I really enjoyed the bit when he pointed out the muslim's "hairtrigger sensitivity" towards their religion yet they are doing one of the most insensitive things you can think of by building the mosque in that area.

El Mac

08-08-10, 22:45

Islam is not a religion. It is a totalitarian cult system with a pinch of religiousity. The proposed mosque at ground zero of 9/11 should never see the light of day.

ChicagoTex

08-08-10, 23:23

Islam is not a religion. It is a totalitarian cult system with a pinch of religiousity.

Islam absolutely is a religion (at least just as much as Christianity, Judaism, or any other major monotheistic religion). The problem is that many Middle Eastern governments and religious leaders have perverted it into a totalitarian cult system with a pinch of religiousity. Think of it like America's own Salem Witch period, but on a much larger scale and with full government backing.

Bottom line: Islam in free nations is vastly different (and infinitely less dangerous than) Islam in Islamic nations and to persecute one for the crimes of the other just encourages the cycle of ignorance. Perhaps if real, non psychotic/violent Islam were more widely accepted and followed, it could put a dent in the extremist cause - calling peaceable practitioners of their faith would-be terrorists sure hasn't been helpful...

parishioner

08-08-10, 23:33

Perhaps if real, non psychotic/violent Islam were more widely accepted and followed, it could put a dent in the extremist cause - calling peaceable practitioners of their faith would-be terrorists sure hasn't been helpful...

Question: Are the "peaceable practitioners of their faith" the ones pushing for this mosque to be erected next to ground zero? Because if it is, IT IS DEFINITELY NOT HELPING THEIR CAUSE.(not yelling at you)

Honu

08-08-10, 23:40

have heard that somewhere around %80 of muslims when asked if killing innocent people (jihad) say yes its OK

so %80 of them or so are not peaceable

islamists in free nations are less dangerous ?
that statement alone shows they are radicals
if they had their way with their laws in our countries you would see more honor killings more children being killed as mercy killings etc..

funny I dont know any Christians who would become more dangerous if they lived in another country !!

any Christian I know would not stick up for other Christians who think its OK to murder your kids or wife or anyone that does not agree with your thoughts and religion and all religions should be wiped off the planet except for ours !
yet muslims are just fine with that kind of stuff which shows how backwards and in the dark ages they are

ChicagoTex

08-08-10, 23:52

Question: Are the "peaceable practitioners of their faith" the ones pushing for this mosque to be erected next to ground zero? Because if it is, IT IS DEFINITELY NOT HELPING THEIR CAUSE.(not yelling at you)

I obviously can't speak to the exact character of these precise Muslims, but presumably they are peaceable.
I can see it from both sides: one side feels they're intruding too close/too close to the events of 9/11, the other side feels that the establishment of a peaceful mosque so close could be a major symbol for tolerance and recovery.

Assuming the Mosque-builders intentions run closely to my assumed viewpoint for them (and not something more sinister) I think their hearts are in the right place, but they're not being realistic about the perceptions that follow their actions.

So yeah, I don't think they're helping their case, but that doesn't mean they're evil.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 00:03

have heard that somewhere around %80 of muslims when asked if killing innocent people (jihad) say yes its OK

so %80 of them or so are not peaceable

This is based on something you HEARD? from who? when? where? where's the data? who was asked? what was the exact question?. I heard Elvis is still alive, I heard that the Moon Landing was faked, and I heard that Mel Gibson was a rational man.

You can't present something you think you "heard" with absolutely nothing to back it up and pretend that's a valid basis for any arguement.

islamists in free nations are less dangerous ?
that statement alone shows they are radicals

That statement alone shows that in places where people can read their own holy book instead of having a perverse government and/or terrorist organization read it for them and tell them what's in it people follow their faith and not the perversion.

if they had their way with their laws in our countries you would see more honor killings more children being killed as mercy killings etc..

I could say the exact same for Christians based on how some people have interpreted the Bible, it wouldn't make it any more true.

funny I dont know any Christians who would become more dangerous if they lived in another country !!

As someone who has personally received specific death threats on numerous occaisons from Christians who wanted to kill me for "blashphemy" if they could, I would highly beg to differ.

any Christian I know would not stick up for other Christians who think its OK to murder your kids or wife or anyone that does not agree with your thoughts and religion and all religions should be wiped off the planet except for ours !

Christianity did EXACTLY that during the Crusades and the Inquisition. Learn your own faith's history before trying to pretending your bronze-age religion is significantly different from anyone else's bronze-age religion.

yet muslims are just fine with that kind of stuff which shows how backwards and in the dark ages they are

Again... where's your proof of this? Go ahead and show me a shred of evidence that says 80% of American Muslims want to murder all infidels. I'll be waiting.

Honu

08-09-10, 01:15

I heard it on NBC 20/20 or something ? and then looked it up a few places after I heard it and found its quite true ?

you and rickrock and a few other lefties on here wont care or listen to the other side ? so whats the point of me finding and posting it ?

at least you and rosie could date with your Christians are as dangerous as the islamists attitude :) hehehehee

Crusades ? yeah check the real history about that WAR as it was brutal but if the muslims had gotten their way not one Christian would be alive today ! and that is still the way most all of them want it !
yet the Christians did not believe that way ?

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 01:20

you and rickrock and a few other lefties on here wont care or listen to the other side ? so whats the point of me finding and posting it ?

So, you're using an ad hominem to justify the fact that you can't back your argument with anything real. Cool, that's more or less what I figured.

parishioner

08-09-10, 01:28

So yeah, I don't think they're helping their case, but that doesn't mean they're evil.

They may not be evil, but don't expect this move by them to make me any less wary of them.

They want to repair the image that is currently tainting islam? This sure as shit isn't the way to do it.

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 01:46

ChiTex, lest we forget we are the country that was attacked. By the tone of your posts you are justifying their actions almost. It is very unsettling. People this isn't about religion at all. The Muslim faith in itslef, or rather the way it has been molested by the extremists is that any non muslim should be removed from the earth...PERIOD! This really sounds to me like not just a war on terror as we see it, but a struggle and survival of our very existence. Any type of compromise with these countries or groups who despise our way of life is a show of weakness. They will prey upon it and expose it till they destroy us. Them building a mosque or whatever in the very same area as an attack from their fellow muslims(extremist) is a slap in the face and a outright declaration of war on our soil.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:02

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 02:12

The same hearts and minds tactics we are using on them, we taught and they are using on us in the USA. Maybe not by patrols and Hershey bars but through business ventures and "religious" marketed endeavors. I would more trust my ex wifes divorce attorney than an "American Muslim" who says he has no ties or never been influenced by the extremists. Most have, where do you think they are getting funds to fight us, or is the Patriot Act just for shits and giggles. The so called peaceful muslims can and will be a threat since they support a faith that is being morphed into a regular "lets kill the Westerners" campaign.

Those that stand idly by an do nothing to stop a wrong, are just as guilty as those who commit it.

Meaning by them not opposing their "extremist" brothers, they by definition condone it.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:21

Most have, where do you think they are getting funds to fight us

False. Most Islamic terrorist funding comes from the illegal drug trade (especially Heroin) and from hefty underhanded contributions from Middle Eastern oil interests.

or is the Patriot Act just for shits and giggles.

The Patriot Act was developed for the purpose of convincing incredibly stupid people that they needed to sacrifice their own civil liberties for intelligence agencies to be able to do their job. Nothing more. There is no justification for it and it is not a valid justification for anything else.

The so called peaceful muslims can and will be a threat since they support a faith that is being morphed into a regular "lets kill the Westerners" campaign.

Uhm, how is that exactly? You have no substance in your argument besides your blatantly false allegation that American mosques are donating money hand over fist to Jihadists.

Meaning by them not opposing their "extremist" brothers, they by definition condone it.

American Muslims regularly officially condemn the extremist terrorist organizations in the world. What else would you have them do?

Honu

08-09-10, 02:23

also I said muslims ? you try to then make it as US muslims ?

so here are some facts on US muslims

for US muslims search for the pew poll that came out
if I remember you could flip that number and say that about %80 - %85 would think its not ok
youth though was higher about %25 or more with being OK

funny though that less than half believed arabs attacked on 9/11 ? the other half are they conspiracy nuts or ????

pretty sure those would be accurate from what I remember when reading that piece :)
and I remember the other piece about muslims world wide and how things were almost opposite of the US muslims

but with about %1 or less of the US population being muslim which is about .2 of world wide muslim population
many that live here are normal US citizens and realize how great our country is and enjoy its freedoms
the poll showed that at about half of those thought of themselves as Americans first muslims second
and I bet that the %25 of those youth who thought it was Ok are not the ones that value themselves as American first if thats the case then about half the muslim youth thinks its OK to do suicide bombings ? again that is a guess and not fact but would make reasonable sense ?

how do those facts sit with you ?
you OK with that ?

if you think the above is true then you are going to have to take my word on the other facts ?
I dont mind sharing the truth it is the way it should be making up stories does not help and one can get caught up in them ! I have no reason to lie about what I know ?

fact is the other stuff I heard it from good sources backed up etc. cant share it would not share it with you for many reasons
one is because it would not matter ? you think what you want etc..
but since the above facts can be backed up all over the place easy enough with a search
and I am not afraid to share those as they paint the American muslim who is older in better light

but again even if I am off about %5 and say %75 of muslims in the world think its OK ? is it that far off when %25 of the youth in the US thinks its OK and really I think its about %50 of the true muslim youth that think this ? throwing out the US first half

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 02:23

Clearly you have your opinion, and I have mine. I see no reason to further argue this point. And not once did I try to flame or incite you as you have done to me and others on this thread. You should in the most kindest way possible, "GROW UP".

CHEERS!

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:35

Honu,

We were always talking about US Muslims, since it's US Muslims building this mosque and US (or more correctly "free society") Muslims I was contrasting.

Can you provide a link to this poll information, or is this more stuff that you "heard" or "read" at "some point"?

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:42

Clearly you have your opinion, and I have mine. I see no reason to further argue this point.

Fair enough.

And not once did I try to flame or incite you as you have done to me and others on this thread.

You alleged that American Muslims supported terrorist organizations financially. I called you on it. That's "flaming"?

parishioner

08-09-10, 02:43

American Muslims regularly officially condemn the extremist terrorist organizations in the world. What else would you have them do?

I'm just not understanding where all this trust is coming from. I mean, what is something significant that the "peaceable" muslims have done to prove their "peaceableness" besides decide ground zero is an excellent area to construct a mosque. Whether they like it or not their image has been severely damaged and they are in the hole. If they want acceptance and respect they need to earn it. They can't just expect it. They need to climb out of the hole and redeem themselves and this means doing something besides the occasional muslim interviewee saying "trust me, we are peace loving people."

Or they could stay the course and just be sort of ho-hum regarding the extremists.

Honu

08-09-10, 02:47

Our country was attacked by foreign terrorists who had perverted their faith for their own violent ends. They are absolutely the enemy and deserve to be fought at every turn.

American Muslims wanting to build a mosque in downtown NYC aren't them. It's... that... simple.

well half of them are muslims first and not US first ? and thats the half I worry about with the facts I posted

also with the majority of people not wanting it built ? shows they are muslim first and US second or they would listen to their fellow US citizens but the ones that are their are NOT US first they are muslim first and that is scary

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 02:50

You really don't know what flaming is. I never made any of my argument personal. Unless you are a practicing Muslim. Are you? If so I will retract said statement if it bothers you. However I feel you are not Muslim and only here to argue on a board that clearly has a strong opinion opposite yours. If you like to argue so much, become an attorney instead of delivering pizza's and shock value arguments.

By the way I will have a pepperoni with extra cheese...30 minutes, so hurry up!

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:51

I mean, what is something significant that the "peaceable" muslims have done to prove their "peaceableness" besides decide ground zero is an excellent area to construct a mosque.

1. 2 blocks away from ground zero isn't ground zero, it's downtown NYC. Legally, the fact that ground zero is fairly close is entirely coincidental and insignificant. Don't Muslims have the right to have Mosques in NYC? If so, how far away is far away enough?

2. Seriously, what do you people expect as far as opposing their radical brethren? Will you not be satisfied until American Muslims spend every dime they have on a PMC to battle extremists?

All they can or should be expected to do is continue to live out their lives peacefully. Any further expectation is unfair and unrealistic.

thopkins22

08-09-10, 02:52

well half of them are muslims first and not US first ? and thats the half I worry about with the facts I posted

Most Christians are Christians first too.... Anyone that truly believes in a God ought not in good conscience put it second.

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 02:55

So fine they build their Mosque, then we should go ahead and be allowed the same reciprocity and build Christian based temples in their homeland. Somehow I fear that wouldn't be allowed. Or do you have so much faith in Muslims and their nature of acceptance towards westerners that we would be welcomed with open arms a beers and a pig on spit rejoicing our presence.

24 minutes left hurry I am hungry!

Hopkins I agree, although Christianity at its center is more accepting of others and their beliefs than the Muslim faith is of anyone non Muslim.
And I tend to prioritize in this mannner.
1.UNIT
2.USMC
3.GOD
4.COUNTRY

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:57

Unless you are a practicing Muslim. Are you?

I am not. I am a man of no specific faith who violently resents people using lies to justify marginalizing and dehumanizing other people.

By the way I will have a pepperoni with extra cheese...30 minutes, so hurry up!

I regret to inform you, that due to driver safety concerns, we no longer offer a 30 minute guarantee.

On a seperate note: **** you. I don't recall insulting you personally or mocking your occupation/faith/race or anything else not pertinent to this discussion.

Glad to know I'm the one who needs to grow up...

Honu

08-09-10, 02:58

Fair enough.

You alleged that American Muslims supported terrorist organizations financially. I called you on it. That's "flaming"?

if you really think no American muslim has given money to groups that support terrorists ???? scary you need to wake up quite reading the huffington post

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 02:59

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:00

if you really think no American muslim has given money to groups that support terrorists ???? scary you need to wake up quite reading the huffington post

Of course a few have, that doesn't mean that all (or even most) mosques are terrorism fundraising centers.

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 03:03

A little ribbing and you get vulgar? Come on now you can't expect to come off as being the all knowing all seeing amazing Kreskin and expect some mocking at your expense. Just drop the holier than though attitude and get to your point. If you really and truly feel that we have treated the Muslims or their faith in a dehumanizing manner than just say so and cite all your data so we all my bask in your wisdom and be enlightened as you are!

thopkins22

08-09-10, 03:04

So fine they build their Mosque, then we should go ahead and be allowed the same reciprocity and build Christian based temples in their homeland. Somehow I fear that wouldn't be allowed. Or do you have so much faith in Muslims and their nature of acceptance towards westerners that we would be welcomed with open arms a beers and a pig on spit rejoicing our presence.

Just because it wouldn't be allowed in a screwed up society, doesn't mean it shouldn't be legal here. A free society can't set policy according to what's acceptable in the shittiest parts of the world and expect something dramatically different.

Nobody said that building the mosque is fine and that we should smile and take them tea or whatever. Just that perhaps we shouldn't meet them with torches and pitchforks.;)

SteyrAUG

08-09-10, 03:04

Bottom line: Islam in free nations is vastly different (and infinitely less dangerous than) Islam in Islamic nations and to persecute one for the crimes of the other just encourages the cycle of ignorance.

Do you consider Dubai a free nation?

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:05

A little ribbing and you get vulgar?

You can rib my ideas and beliefs all you like. Giving me shit for my current transitional occupation is crossing a line.

SteyrAUG

08-09-10, 03:07

You can rib my ideas and beliefs all you like. Giving me shit for my current transitional occupation is crossing a line.

I have no idea what you are talking about or what your current occupation is. I asked if you believed Dubai was a free nation.

You were the one who suggested Muslims in free nations don't act like Muslims in places like Iran. So I'm trying to determine what you consider a free nation.

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 03:08

Love the Frankenstein analogy, kill or attack an abomination. Torches and pitchforks, do they still make those. And yes while I actually agree they can have their freedom of religion just as i do, I fear it is unwise and not in the best interest of the people in general the location they chose.

Just because I go to the park for a picnic, doesn't mean I should be brazen in my attitude and lay my blanket on the anthill.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:08

Do you consider Dubai a free nation?

As Dubai is part of the UAE, who's state religion is Islam, I do not.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:08

I have no idea what you are talking about or what your current occupation is. I asked if you believed Dubai was a free nation.

That wasn't for you, that was for jklaughrey. You're fine.

Honu

08-09-10, 03:10

Most Christians are Christians first too.... Anyone that truly believes in a God ought not in good conscience put it second.

yes and that goes back to my those are the ones to be afraid of since out of that info %25 of youth said bombings are OK ?
I dont think that any of the I am US first said yes to that ?
so if that is the case then half the muslim first youth are OK with Jihad ! that is a number to worry about
in those numbers take out that half not to be afraid of and we are left with about %20 of adult muslims to worry about !

still those are large % of a group that feel its OK to kill innocent people

if you go into a Christian church in most any town and ask how many of you are OK with killing some innocent people lets go blow up that store
I dont think you will get a ONE that is OK with that and if you do it would be very very rare and that guy would be a nut job
it would not be half the youth saying YEAH I am OK with that !

SteyrAUG

08-09-10, 03:10

As Dubai is part of the UAE, who's state religion is Islam, I do not.

Ok, then. Let's use this country.

How about the Ft. Hood shooter?

Seems to me he was a Muslim in a free country. Seems to me he engaged in the same kind of terrorism as Muslims from other countries.

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 03:14

No need to be ashamed of how you make that paper! Be proud that you provide a needed and overlooked service. But if your keeping score, and I am sure you do, the first stone was cast by you. I gave a you a ribbing and you escalated. Now I am not here for a personal fight period, I do however feel that your sole purpose is to cause unneeded noise. I am done with you and the argument. If you felt I crossed the line in calling you a pizza delivery boy, well then I am sorry for stating your chosen profession. Just in the future I would urge you to remain calm and objective in your dealings with those of different views.

Cheers!

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:18

Ok, then. Let's use this country.

How about the Ft. Hood shooter?

Seems to me he was a Muslim in a free country. Seems to me he engaged in the same kind of terrorism as Muslims from other countries.

First let me say that I consider this a fair point of debate.

Second, I'll admit my acquaintance with the facts of the Ft. Hood shooting are quite limited.

It is my understanding that the man basically had a psychotic break in reaction to being forced to kill people he viewed as at least partially his brethren in faith and the shooting was his vehicle for protest/escape.

Again, my knowledge of the incident is very limited, but I'm not aware of anything that indicates that he killed because he was slaying infidels, but that he killed because he felt he was in an impossible situation and reacted violently.

If you have any facts that I am unaware of to add that contradict me, please feel free to share and I assure you I will view and consider them.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:23

If you felt I crossed the line in calling you a pizza delivery boy, well then I am sorry for stating your chosen profession.

You did it an obviously derogatory and mocking way, that's what I reacted to with hostility. You basically said "Hurry up and serve me you pathetic pizza boy". Until you apologize for that, your hollow half-ass apology means nothing to me.

You're welcome to feel I'm here just to make noise. I feel I'm here to try to battle the dehumanizing stereotype that Islam is not a legitimate faith and everyone who practices it is a terrorist or, by association, supports terrorism. I believe this to be false, callous, and extremely morally deplorable. That's my reason for being here and that's my point.

parishioner

08-09-10, 03:27

All they can or should be expected to do is continue to live out their lives peacefully. Any further expectation is unfair and unrealistic.

I'm in a fraternity. My fraternity is comprised of about 60 guys. A couple of years ago 3 guys did something reprehensible that severely damaged our reputation on campus. Why did it damage our reputation? Because whether we liked it or not they represented our fraternity. Was everyone in our group just like these 3 pieces of shit? Of course not but we all suffered as a result. We had lost the respect from the school, sororities and fraternities. We had fallen from the rungs of greatness. FYI, reputation is important because that is what brings in new guys. New guys bring in money. Organizations require money to continue. So if we wanted to be taken seriously on campus and survive as an organization we had to implement some serious damage control. This meant going above and beyond to repair the damage that had been done. Instead of participating in just a few campus events, we did them all. Instead of about half the frat going to the football games together, we all went together. We made sacrifice after sacrifice to make our presence felt on campus and to prove to everyone that we were more than these 3 douche bags. Why? Because we CARED and we wanted to be taken seriously again and because of it we are almost at the top again two years later.

I believe my fraternity's situation a couple of years ago bears a certain resemblance to the Muslim's. Wouldn't you agree?

If the islamic organization had the same attitude that our organization cultivated after our unfortunate event instead of your suggestion of what they should do(your quote above), maybe they could see an improvement in the way they are received.

SteyrAUG

08-09-10, 03:32

First let me say that I consider this a fair point of debate.

Second, I'll admit my acquaintance with the facts of the Ft. Hood shooting are quite limited.

It is my understanding that the man basically had a psychotic break in reaction to being forced to kill people he viewed as at least partially his brethren in faith and the shooting was his vehicle for protest/escape.

Again, my knowledge of the incident is very limited, but I'm not aware of anything that indicates that he killed because he was slaying infidels, but that he killed because he felt he was in an impossible situation and reacted violently.

If you have any facts that I am unaware of to add that contradict me, please feel free to share and I assure you I will view and consider them.

Well that is the bullshit CNN version of events.

First off he was an Army psychologist who seems to have spent most of his time convincing his patients "army vets" that they had committed horrible acts for which they should be ashamed.

Then when he found out he was to be deployed as a army psychiatrist, a position that would in no way require him to kill anyone, he did the only logical thing and went on a shooting rampage killing US servicemen and women. Many would attempt to excuse his actions as being the result of PTSD even though he had not yet seen any action and was unlikely to ever see any action.

He sure as shit did cause some PTSD.

Bottom line, despite being an American and a US soldier, he was a Muslim first and put the concerns of Islam before any other. In reality, he was probably an infiltration from the get go and was doing as much damage as he possibly could. And when it looked like he might have to go to Haji Land he concluded his Jihad in dramatic fashion.

Now you have a point about Islam, Christianity and Judaism all saying mostly the same kind of ancient, barbaric and hateful shit. The difference is Jews and Christians started to practice things a little differently about 1,000 years ago and the 1600s were the last time we had a witch trial. Saudi still has them.

Christians who blow shit up (like abortion clinics) are the rare exception and most Christians do not support such actions. Muslims blow shit up constantly and most Muslims support the idea of Jihad even if they don't participate personally. Even ultra fundamentalist Jews in Israel simply don't come anywhere near the level of terrorism committed by Muslims in the Middle East.

And you don't see Jews and Christians engaged in actions like honor killings of their own family members anywhere in the world. Muslim families have engaged in this kind of action everywhere they live, even in the US.

jklaughrey

08-09-10, 03:34

Tex, you have some real issues going on don't you. I detect some inferiority complex, coupled with narcissistic tendencies. Lets not forget a severe identity and anger management problem. I apologized, sorry that you are to immature to accept, I did my part as a responsible adult. I urge you to do the same. I in no way was being derogatory nor callous, but your perception is what it is and I won't minimize your suffering by telling you to do so. Now back to some issues I have noticed, I can direct you to a counselor in your area. Maybe that may be beneficial to you, I am serious as I have access to those types of services and referrals through my professional and familial contacts.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:35

I'm in a fraternity. My fraternity is comprised of about 60 guys. A couple of years ago 3 guys did something reprehensible that severely damaged our reputation on campus. Why did it damage our reputation? Because whether we liked it or not they represented our fraternity. Was everyone in our group just like these 3 pieces of shit? Of course not but we all suffered as a result. We had lost the respect from the school, sororities and fraternities. We had fallen from the rungs of greatness. FYI, reputation is important because that is what brings in new guys. New guys bring in money. Organizations require money to continue. So if we wanted to be taken seriously on campus and survive as an organization we had to implement some serious damage control. This meant going above and beyond to repair the damage that had been done. Instead of participating in just a few campus events, we did them all. Instead of about half the frat going to the football games together, we all went together. We made sacrifice after sacrifice to make our presence felt on campus and to prove to everyone that we were more than these 3 douche bags. Why? Because we CARED and we wanted to be taken seriously again and because of it we are almost at the top again two years later.

I believe my fraternity's situation a couple of years ago bears a certain resemblance to the Muslim's. Wouldn't you agree?

If the islamic organization had the same attitude that our organization cultivated after our unfortunate event, maybe they could see an improvement in the way they are received.

You make a solid argument, and I don't really disagree. I just feel that, just like no one on Campus EXPECTED you to go above and beyond to restore your reputation we have no right to EXPECT American Muslims to do the same. Would it be good? Sure, are they morally obligated to do so? Not so much.

parishioner

08-09-10, 03:41

You make a solid argument, and I don't really disagree. I just feel that, just like no one on Campus EXPECTED you to go above and beyond to restore your reputation we have no right to EXPECT American Muslims to do the same. Would it be good? Sure, are they morally obligated to do so? Not so much.

Actually, I do EXPECT them to go above and beyond if they EXPECT me to respect and tolerate them.

If they weren't expecting tolerance and respect, I could give a damn.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 03:45

Actually, I do EXPECT them to go above and beyond if they EXPECT me to respect and tolerate them.

You can withhold your respect all you want, as respect is, indeed, earned.

In this country, however, citizens who've done nothing wrong do deserve your tolerance. Or would you have expected your college campus to disband your frat as soon as those three jackasses pulled their stunt?

Honu

08-09-10, 03:47

SteyerAug very very well said of course :)

sadly my writing skills suck :) so glad others can write what I was thinking :)

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 04:00

parishioner

08-09-10, 04:06

You can withhold your respect all you want, as respect is, indeed, earned.

In this country, however, citizens who've done nothing wrong do deserve your tolerance. Or would you have expected your college campus to disband your frat as soon as those three jackasses pulled their stunt?

Bottom line, I'll show them as much tolerance as they show me but don't be shocked or label me as a perpetuator of the strained relationship if I have a lack of trust and respect for them because they haven't done anything to deserve it.

Goodnight. Damn, its late.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 04:08

Bottom line, I'll show them as much tolerance as they show me but don't be shocked or label me as a perpetuator of the strained relationship if I have a lack of trust and respect for them because they haven't done anything to deserve it.

Fair enough.

pilotguyo540

08-09-10, 04:21

Tex, what did you say to get a death threat from a "christian"?

I would deduce that you are an atheist. If so, and its only a guess, that's cool by me. I don't care either way. If my assumption is correct, I would assume that your anti christian views are really fogging over our anti militant islam views.

One interesting fun fact. Christians refer to god as father and muslims refer to the SAME god as master.

Let's get real here. Mosques here in america are a cash funnel for militant islam. You can deny that when you deny the sky is blue. If islam achieves their goal magically tomorrow, you and I would be dead before then. islam is not tolerant, therefore I shall not tolerate islam. Our constitution does not allow the government to create a religion and allows people to gather peaceably. It does not allow for sharia law.

I hope your luck improves. I also hope you ditch the rose colored glasses and don't be so gullible. Islam is not your friend, nor should you want it to be.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 04:40

Tex, what did you say to get a death threat from a "christian"?

Most recently, that the Touchdown Jesus that got burned to a crisp when it was struck by lightning was a hilarious and obvious byproduct of blatant hubris. (Yes, this particular Christian was pretty mentally unhinged)

Other anecdotes are much more in-depth and complicated having to do with personal relationships, you can PM me if you're really curious.

I would deduce that you are an atheist.

More or less. I refer to myself as a "practical athiest" because I believe it is as fundamentally illogical to declare definitively that there is no God as it is to declare that there is. That said, I don't recognize any current god/religion so for all intents and purposes I am an athiest (hence the practical moniker).

I would assume that your anti christian views are really fogging over our anti militant islam views.

I don't really understand what you mean by this, can you clarify?

One interesting fun fact. Christians refer to god as father and muslims refer to the SAME god as master.

And then Christians go on to say they are Slaves to Christ... What you're pointing to is that Islam is much more centered, culturally, around the idea that one can own people. This is actually a point I'll gladly stipulate to, I just think you chose the wrong semantic to highlight the point.

Let's get real here. Mosques here in america are a cash funnel for militant islam.

Mosques here in America are the same as churches and synogogues, self-sustaining businesses. If they were sending over the kind of funds you allege, they'd all be shut down by the DOHS.

islam is not tolerant, therefore I shall not tolerate islam

No monotheistic religion is tolerant. All require the believer to believe their faith is the one correct one and all others are false heresy. And so I am not tolerant of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology or the Cult of the Tooth Fairy being incorporated into any manner of official government policy. We, as a nation, are required to be tolerant of OUR people, not necessarily their faith. This means I have no more right to kill my Muslim coworker than he does me. Yes, his beliefs say I'm an infidel whereas my beliefs say he's chasing a false god - but neither of us have any right to persecute each other based on our beliefs.

Which means he can build his house (of worship) wherever the hell he wants.

Now call me crazy if you like, but I for one will support the people who don't actually try to kill me, but instead tolerate me, over those who do otherwise instead of trying to lump them all together because I'm afraid tomorrow my coworker will stop being tolerant.

pilotguyo540

08-09-10, 05:05

Most recently, that the Touchdown Jesus that got burned to a crisp when it was struck by lightning was a hilarious and obvious byproduct of blatant hubris. (Yes, this particular Christian was pretty mentally unhinged)

Other anecdotes are much more in-depth and complicated having to do with personal relationships, you can PM me if you're really curious.

More or less. I refer to myself as a "practical athiest" because I believe it is as fundamentally illogical to declare definitively that there is no God as it is to declare that there is. That said, I don't recognize any current god/religion so for all intents and purposes I am an athiest (hence the practical moniker).

I don't really understand what you mean by this, can you clarify?

And then Christians go on to say they are Slaves to Christ... What you're pointing to is that Islam is much more centered, culturally, around the idea that one can own people. This is actually a point I'll gladly stipulate to, I just think you chose the wrong semantic to highlight the point.

Mosques here in America are the same as churches and synogogues, self-sustaining businesses. If they were sending over the kind of funds you allege, they'd all be shut down by the DOHS.

No monotheistic religion is tolerant. All require the believer to believe their faith is the one correct one and all others are false heresy. And so I am not tolerant of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology or the Cult of the Tooth Fairy being incorporated into any manner of official government policy. We, as a nation, are required to be tolerant of OUR people, not necessarily their faith. This means I have no more right to kill my Muslim coworker than he does me. Yes, his beliefs say I'm an infidel whereas my beliefs say he's chasing a false god - but neither of us have any right to persecute each other based on our beliefs.

Which means he can build his house (of worship) wherever the hell he wants.

Now call me crazy if you like, but I for one will support the people who don't actually try to kill me, but instead tolerate me, over those who do otherwise instead of trying to lump them all together because I'm afraid tomorrow my coworker will stop being tolerant.

I wish I knew how to do multiple quotes. At whatever time it is I can't clarify much, but I will give it a shot. I was trying to say thet if you were trying to pick a side with the assumption that both were evil, you would have issues.

Christians are not slaves to christ. Anyone who thinks so really missed the point of christ in the first place. God loves us enough to let us screw up our lives as we see fit. Here you really need to find a different source. My point is still valid. Rethink this and we can try again.

Christianity is a very tolerant monothiestic religion. Even down to its raw form,the bible preaches love of other people regardless of their faith. Sure people have ****ed up along the way, but that doesn't mean that its wrong. it appears that islam teaches hate before it gets radicalized. It is for this reason I feel that islam is inferior to christianity and Judaism. In every armed conflict going on right now in the world, islam is in every one.

We can't shut down the mosques because the PC police trump all.

I do not necessarily support the patriot act. It is a slippery slope and a dangerous weapon that can all too easily be pointed at anyone. I am also not trying to save your soul. I am having enough trouble with my own.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 05:35

We can't shut down the mosques because the PC police trump all.

We absolutely could and would if there was an proof that they were sending funds directly to terrorist organizations. The PC police can't outwit a real paper trail.

As for your Christianity arguments, that's not the point of this thread and not something I want to get bogged down into. Let's just say you have your perspective and I have mine on that subject and leave it alone for now.

El Mac

08-09-10, 06:56

Islam absolutely is a religion (at least just as much as Christianity, Judaism, or any other major monotheistic religion). The problem is that many Middle Eastern governments and religious leaders have perverted it into a totalitarian cult system with a pinch of religiousity. Think of it like America's own Salem Witch period, but on a much larger scale and with full government backing.

Bottom line: Islam in free nations is vastly different (and infinitely less dangerous than) Islam in Islamic nations and to persecute one for the crimes of the other just encourages the cycle of ignorance. Perhaps if real, non psychotic/violent Islam were more widely accepted and followed, it could put a dent in the extremist cause - calling peaceable practitioners of their faith would-be terrorists sure hasn't been helpful...

Sure pal....riiiiight......

Honu

08-09-10, 09:49

We absolutely could and would if there was an proof that they were sending funds directly to terrorist organizations. The PC police can't outwit a real paper trail.

show me proof they are not ? like a child molester who is not caught yet ? still makes em a child molester

Mosques are not going to get shut down ? its pretty hard to but quite a few people and organizations tied with them have been shut down do to terrorist funding

your show me a mosque is like saying show me a gun company shut down due to someone being killed ?

its the people in them that get shut down

so instead of that weak weak pathetic point of show me a mosque ? go learn some facts

curious how those facts about American muslims sitting with you ? you still did not say if you think thats OK that %25 of youth think its OK

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 11:45

show me proof they are not ? like a child molester who is not caught yet ? still makes em a child molester

In America, you're innocent until proven guilty. Or should I start assuming all Christian ministers are pedophiles (like in your example)? Hey, you haven't shown me they're NOT pedophiles, therefore they all are :rolleyes:

curious how those facts about American muslims sitting with you ? you still did not say if you think thats OK that %25 of youth think its OK

And you still refuse to show your sources, instead expecting me to accept the things you say that you "heard" as fact.

SteyrAUG

08-09-10, 11:45

Missed your post SteyrAUG,

I thank you for clarifying some things related to the event.

I think you and I are basically in agreement that what seperates faiths like Christianity and Judaism from Islam is timing and/or the fundamental progress of the faith.

I personally believe, based on the educated muslims I've met here in the U.S. that Islam holds the same POTENTIAL for acceptability that Judaism and Christianity do, but because of a multitude of issues it's not there yet and may never be. That doesn't mean the religion is any more morally wrong, it means the people who misuse it are.

It's like the old adage that all germans were Nazis but not all Nazis were germans. The German nazi party was an organization that brought about great acts of evil in the world, that doesn't mean all Germans were jew-slaying world conquerors.

Worldwide percentage-wise, yes, Muslims are much more likely to be terrorists/jihadists than most any other major-marketshare faith today. I contend that that roots from specific abuse in a specific part of the world and that most people absent from that view and practice Islam in a much more benign manner, and that those who do deserve the same consideration afforded other peaceable citizens.

ETA: and just so we're clear, I believe that Jihadists in America for the most part receive the same level of condemnation and ostracism as do the Abortion Clinic bombers with Christianity in the U.S.

And with your last point I disagree. While many Muslims in America will say they don't agree with 9-11 (even though many secretly do) most will still agree with concepts like Jihad and honor killing. Sadly, I've net some.

But I suspect I understand where you are coming from. My guess is you are young (and like most of us at that age) a bit naive and idealistic.

When I was younger I used to love spending time with my Grandfather and his friends. I loved getting the war stories "first hand" from the guys that were there. But the one thing I never could relate to was their visceral hatred of the Japanese. If you drove a Japanese, car, ate sushi or mentioned who bought the Empire state building you were gonna hear about it.

It just made no sense to me. I KNEW a lot of Japanese people, I had studied martial arts from a early age. I could read, write and speak Japanese. I practiced Zen breathing exercises and I ****ing loved sushi. I understood we fought a war and Japan was the enemy, I even understood the sneak attacked us at Pearl. But I didn't understand the hatred of every Japanese person.

It seemed irrational. Until about 20 years later and 9-11 when I finally understood. In the context of that outrage, I could understand what they were talking about so I looked closer.

I reexamined things, including things I deliberately ignored like the fact that most Japanese have no idea about things like Nanking, the Bataan Death March and Unit 731. And not only have they never condemned those actions, many of the people involved became celebrated heroes. But the guys who did know about these offenses and Japan's lack of accountability were friends of my Grandfather. Not to mention an entire generation of Japanese that were mostly complicit and supportive due to racial, religious and cultural reasons.

Modern Muslims are very similar with regard to terrorism and Jihad.

ChicagoTex

08-09-10, 11:53

My guess is you are young (and like most of us at that age) a bit naive and idealistic.

Youngish, sure. 25. I don't know about naive but I do try to be fairly idealistic when it comes to the potential of the human race as it's all I have go on as far as hope or faith.

Modern Muslims are very similar with regard to terrorism and Jihad.

I've been running a bit short of sleep lately so I gotta be honest with you, I'm not seeing the parallel. Could you explain this a bit more? (You can send it in a PM if you want, or post it here, whichever suits you).

Honu

08-09-10, 12:35

do a google for something like
US poll on muslims PDF pew research

that will bring up the info on the US muslim facts

you wont find it on the huffington post ! so you have to do a little work ? I am not going to hand you the link ? do your own checking

thopkins22

08-09-10, 12:48

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf
Brought to you by http://www.pewtrusts.org/default.aspx

you wont find it on the huffington post ! so you have to do a little work ? I am not going to hand you the link ? do your own checking

Actually browsing the other things that The Pew Charitable Trusts are funding, you just might find them on the Huffington Post.:p

Honu

08-09-10, 12:52

http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf
Brought to you by http://www.pewtrusts.org/default.aspx

Actually browsing the other things that The Pew Charitable Trusts are funding, you just might find them on the Huffington Post.:p

TOUCHE very true !!!

also why I dont mind sharing honest info with him about US muslims who are much different and small in the numbers of muslims

also I think its important with any info to read both sides
if I see a story on Fox that interests me I search it on MSNBC and on places like huffington then jump to more right wing blogs then try to find other sources and read first hand accounts etc...

its that info and first hand accounts that usually lead me to something close to the truth I find

SteyrAUG

08-09-10, 13:40

Youngish, sure. 25. I don't know about naive but I do try to be fairly idealistic when it comes to the potential of the human race as it's all I have go on as far as hope or faith.

That is most people. But that hope and faith can blind us to reality. If you wish for the best, often you don't see the bad.

I've been running a bit short of sleep lately so I gotta be honest with you, I'm not seeing the parallel. Could you explain this a bit more? (You can send it in a PM if you want, or post it here, whichever suits you).

Like the average Japanese person of the 1930s, most modern Muslims will overlook, and most often support, the actions of terrorists and Jihadist due to racial, religious and cultural considerations. Even those in the US who will say "9-11 was wrong" will usually justify it on some level such as US support of Israel.

A good example of this is an Iranian girl I went to school with. Her family fled Iran in the late 1970s because they were "progressives" and feared the Islamic revolution. So they came to the US and she was in my high school class. She was considered and accepted as a "modern" Muslim. She didn't wear a burka and was receiving an education. The only thing we noticed out of the ordinary is she was picked up immediately after school and was not permitted to socialize with boys.

Then one day she explained how her family put her older sister to death. She told some of us that she hated her family because she loved her older sister. Seems her older sister, who was 19 IIRC, was dating (and having sex with) western men (mostly British). So the family gathered together to decide what should be done and in the end she was drowned in the swimming pool to save the family honor. This was done only a few months prior to their relocation to the US (which ironically might have saved her life).

But in the end, even though she resented her father and uncles for the death, she did admit that it was ultimately her sisters fault and she forced them to do it.