View Full Version : Is the DEA still buying Rock River carbines?
MarshallDodge
08-10-10, 21:13
I was just curious because have heard that they stopped buying RRA and I wanted to confirm.
I saw an article about the LWRC junk they bought for Afghan operations....
Not sure if they're still buying RRA stuff.
variablebinary
08-10-10, 22:26
Not sure, but I recall reading somewhere that RRA won some deal with ICE
I guess the DEA/ICE just loves buying junk from whoever they can get it from!
Any quantifiable evidence that either company's products they sold/sell to the US Gov't is "junk"?
"Not sure, but I recall reading somewhere that RRA won some deal with ICE "
Not true.
Yes. There were many reports that agents in the field did not like the RRA carbines.
The DEA team that was working with the SF team where I was in A'stan was using LWRC stuff. They had some serious reservations about the REPR that one of the guys was using. Several issues with the magazine/feeding.
The 5.56 guns were pretty decent- according to them.
Any quantifiable evidence that either company's products they sold/sell to the US Gov't is "junk"?
Any quantifiable evidence that either company's products they sold/sell to the US Gov't is "junk"?
Yes. My department purchased (25) RRA 16" middy carbines for our gang unit directly from RRA. Out of the (25) rifles delivered, (10) of them were non-functional due to a bad batch of FCG's.
Out of ALL of the major commercial market AR manufacturers, I have personally seen more issues relating directly to poor QC with RRA than any other manufacturer. Un-staked/un-secured bolt carrier keys that were rattle-trap loose straight out of the box. Their liberal use of red lock-tite on just about every part on the AR platform you can think of that should not have it applied to it. Their Dremel-tool "extended feed-ramp" jobs that look like they were done by a chimp. (Seriously, WTF is the purpose of them Dremel-ing feed-ramps into a standard rifle upper receiver???) I recently came across one of the PD rifles we bought that had a Vortex FH that would not come off after being soaked in Kroil for two days, heated up with a torch, and had 80ft/lbs of torque applied to it to try to remove it.
That's about all that I have personally seen....
ETA: I have no personal negative experience relating to LWRCi products.
Magic_Salad0892
08-11-10, 01:51
LWRCi products are great. I've owned some.
M6A2 - 12.7'' 6.8
M6A3 - 12.7'' 5.56 (Win.)
M6A3 - 12.7'' 6.8
I have nothing but good things to say of them.
Yes. There were many reports that agents in the field did not like the RRA carbines.
The DEA team that was working with the SF team where I was in A'stan was using LWRC stuff. They had some serious reservations about the REPR that one of the guys was using. Several issues with the magazine/feeding.
The 5.56 guns were pretty decent- according to them.
I have also had DEA agents using LWRC over here, the guys that i talked to are very happy with their M4's. now the reaper is another story, but their M4's they say that they love them. one of the guys had just bought one last time he was home because he liked his so much.
I believe that if you read through Pat Rogers' AARs for his classes you'll find several instances of DEA and other feds issued RRAs that experienced problems in the training environment.
Much hay has been made by RRA owners about these contracts without any apparent understanding as to how government contracts are awarded or follow up on how the rifles actually perform once issued.
Sidebar on the REPR:
IIRC there was some big dustup on LF re: the magazine compatibility and it does not use the KAC pattern and therefore does not use the Magpul .308 mags. Someone that still has access over there can check. There are some staunch LWRCi supporters/owners there and the whole thing turned pretty ugly. I've only ever seen one REPR and AFAIK it ran for the short period it was asked to in that setting but no idea as to what mags the owner used.
variablebinary
08-11-10, 06:14
Sidebar on the REPR:
IIRC there was some big dustup on LF re: the magazine compatibility and it does not use the KAC pattern and therefore does not use the Magpul .308 mags. Someone that still has access over there can check. There are some staunch LWRCi supporters/owners there and the whole thing turned pretty ugly. I've only ever seen one REPR and AFAIK it ran for the short period it was asked to in that setting but no idea as to what mags the owner used.
This looks like the thread: http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7206084761/m/228102865/p/1
Very ugly thread...
My understanding that the REPR reliability problems have been fixed since March/April timeframe when the magazine catch replacement came out.
As for the RRAs, I believe the DEA learned their lesson the hard way and began to move away from this carbine over a year ago. My understanding that they have largely been replaced by LWRCI (personal purchase) and Colts from other Federal LE contracts.
from what i remember, RRA was only awarded a portion of the DEA contract like 25% with the remaining 75% being divided equally between Colt and SigArms...
ETA: LINK (http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003/07-July/04-Jul-2003/10-awd.htm)
from what i remember, RRA was only awarded a portion of the DEA contract like 25% with the remaining 75% being divided equally between Colt and SigArms...
ETA: LINK (http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003/07-July/04-Jul-2003/10-awd.htm)
Thanks for the link. I did not see any of the Sig rifles in DEA hands last Summer when I was in Kabul. There were a lot of Colts at the low ready and Springfield PRO's in Safariland thigh holsters...
i just spent four days last week with the Lead FI for the NY field div. of the DEA they are still using and buying RRA for CONUS operations. he reports no issues, he did state that they log every round thru the carbines to keep round counts on them. when issues pop up they are returned to RRA for service. the LWRC are being used for OCONUS ops. with a few being fielded CONUS. hope this helps.
jsbsmarine
08-11-10, 12:58
My buddy, a DEA agent, told me his qual was a RRA, and hasn't had issues, yet.
LWRC has a DEA version for sale to everyone.
I have a question;
Is the DEA actually buying LWRC guns themselves or is this just LWRC giving huge discounts and/or free guns to the OCONUS team for the publicity? Has anyone seen a contract or purchase order?
Last time I checked LWRC rifles had only been approved for individual purchase. Meaning the agency was not buying any of them themselves, nor did they intend on doing so. They were only allowing individuals to use their own money to buy one. I would bet at a huge discount. There is a big difference between actually winning a contract and merely hooking up a very small group for publicity.
Dale Gribble
08-11-10, 15:25
Yes. There were many reports that agents in the field did not like the RRA carbines.
The DEA team that was working with the SF team where I was in A'stan was using LWRC stuff. They had some serious reservations about the REPR that one of the guys was using. Several issues with the magazine/feeding.
The 5.56 guns were pretty decent- according to them.
Not liking is hardly quantifiable evidence that something is junk. I don't like Glocks but they certainly aren't junk. Could you expand upon why they didn't like these weapons or had reservations about them?? I'm a noob obviously and defer to your wisdom / experience.
Not liking is hardly quantifiable evidence that something is junk. I don't like Glocks but they certainly aren't junk. Could you expand upon why they didn't like these weapons or had reservations about them?? I'm a noob obviously and defer to your wisdom / experience.
You will quickly find that an objective discussion of LWRC products is impossible on M4Carbine.net.
LWRC goofed the mag design/compatibility with the early REPRs. They originally designed the mag well and catch around a CP mag that was SR-25 'compatible' (should have used the actual KAC mag). They released the REPR to the public in the fall last year about the same time that CP changed the design of their mag and just before Magpul came out with the Pmag 20LR. Turns out the mag well and mag catch weren't compatible with the new CP mags, KAC mags, or Magpul mags so it caused lots of head aches. Most if not all of the DEA REPRs and early civilian guns had reliability problems because of this.
LWRC came up with a fix for the guns that were already out, and revised the design of the REPR to work with the newer mags, especially the Pmag. All REPRs now ship with Pmags.
Dale Gribble
08-11-10, 16:48
You will quickly find that an objective discussion of LWRC products is impossible on M4Carbine.net.
LWRC goofed the mag design/compatibility with the early REPRs. They originally designed the mag well and catch around a CP mag that was SR-25 'compatible' (should have used the actual KAC mag). They released the REPR to the public in the fall last year about the same time that CP changed the design of their mag and just before Magpul came out with the Pmag 20LR. Turns out the mag well and mag catch weren't compatible with the new CP mags, KAC mags, or Magpul mags so it caused lots of head aches. Most if not all of the DEA REPRs and early civilian guns had reliability problems because of this.
LWRC came up with a fix for the guns that were already out, and revised the design of the REPR to work with the newer mags, especially the Pmag. All REPRs now ship with Pmags.
Good Lawd. Just reading that has potential to cause a headache, let alone actually having to been one of the people who had to deal with the problem. When I saw the big names on the forum dissing it I should have known better than to even ask for an explanation.
[QUOTE=VA_Dinger;730762]I have a question;
Is the DEA actually buying LWRC guns themselves or is this just LWRC giving huge discounts and/or free guns to the OCONUS team for the publicity? Has anyone seen a contract or purchase order?
Dinger
my source didn't state if they were purchased by the agency or if they were agent purchased, he just stated they have them over seas.
Yes. My department purchased (25) RRA 16" middy carbines for our gang unit directly from RRA. Out of the (25) rifles delivered, (10) of them were non-functional due to a bad batch of FCG's.
Out of ALL of the major commercial market AR manufacturers, I have personally seen more issues relating directly to poor QC with RRA than any other manufacturer. Un-staked/un-secured bolt carrier keys that were rattle-trap loose straight out of the box. Their liberal use of red lock-tite on just about every part on the AR platform you can think of that should not have it applied to it. Their Dremel-tool "extended feed-ramp" jobs that look like they were done by a chimp. (Seriously, WTF is the purpose of them Dremel-ing feed-ramps into a standard rifle upper receiver???) I recently came across one of the PD rifles we bought that had a Vortex FH that would not come off after being soaked in Kroil for two days, heated up with a torch, and had 80ft/lbs of torque applied to it to try to remove it.
That's about all that I have personally seen....
ETA: I have no personal negative experience relating to LWRCi products.
I have little direct experience with Rock River products and none with LWRC. That being said, I offer this as a side note. I watched on television, (I believe the show was called GI Factory) a tour of FN, one of the re-occurring themes was the employees regard for the end users of the product. In one instance a father had been part of the production of a 240B? in which his son eventually was issued, apparently verified by serial number. I don't believe everything I see on TV, but thats beside the point. Point being, someday, somewhere, someone has to rely on an issued weapon.
Looking past 4140 barrel steel,ect. you'd think RRA could have took the best and brightest and learned to stake a bolt carrier before they sold gov't agencies a non-recreational gun.
This was just a few months ago so apparently he didn't get his fixed. Their issue wasn't with a catch coming out, it was with the feeding.
My understanding that the REPR reliability problems have been fixed since March/April timeframe when the magazine catch replacement came out.
As for the RRAs, I believe the DEA learned their lesson the hard way and began to move away from this carbine over a year ago. My understanding that they have largely been replaced by LWRCI (personal purchase) and Colts from other Federal LE contracts.
Paul,
According to what I was told, the DEA was paying for them. However, they were also told that when they return from their OCONUS ops they were to box the weapons up and send them to LWRC so they can "examine and repair" any issues.
When I asked if they are given any feedback as to what issues had been found, they said not at their level.
I have a question;
Is the DEA actually buying LWRC guns themselves or is this just LWRC giving huge discounts and/or free guns to the OCONUS team for the publicity? Has anyone seen a contract or purchase order?
Last time I checked LWRC rifles had only been approved for individual purchase. Meaning the agency was not buying any of them themselves, nor did they intend on doing so. They were only allowing individuals to use their own money to buy one. I would bet at a huge discount. There is a big difference between actually winning a contract and merely hooking up a very small group for publicity.
This was just a few months ago so apparently he didn't get his fixed. Their issue wasn't with a catch coming out, it was with the feeding.
The issue with the magazine compatibility caused feeding issues. The mags were not sitting at a proper/consistent angle to allow feeding into the chamber. The fix for an existing gun was a revised magazine catch that would hold the mag in the proper position. LWRC will make the modification free of charge.
Guns made in the spring and on have revised mag wells that put the mag in the correct position.
Sweet. I know nothing about it other than what they told me.
The issue with the magazine compatibility caused feeding issues. The mags were not sitting at a proper/consistent angle to allow feeding into the chamber. The fix for an existing gun was a revised magazine catch that would hold the mag in the proper position. LWRC will make the modification free of charge.
Guns made in the spring and on have revised mag wells that put the mag in the correct position.
Not sure, but I recall reading somewhere that RRA won some deal with ICE
Nope, ICE has purchase only Colt M-4's with three round burst since they transitioned from the AUG/MP-5. The M-4's ICE purchased come with everything the Army issues such as Matech sights and KAC Rails. The only different than the Army is they added a Eotech 552
Nope, ICE has purchase only Colt M-4's with three round burst since they transitioned from the AUG/MP-5. The M-4's ICE purchased come with everything the Army issues such as Matech sights and KAC Rails. The only different than the Army is they added a Eotech 552
THIS:D
Paul,
According to what I was told, the DEA was paying for them. However, they were also told that when they return from their OCONUS ops they were to box the weapons up and send them to LWRC so they can "examine and repair" any issues.
When I asked if they are given any feedback as to what issues had been found, they said not at their level.
This whole magazine compatibility issue has been a large and, unfortunately, preventable stain on the REPR platform. From what I can tell, the major flaw was the decision to build the REPR lowers based on cheaper C-Products magazines, instead of the more expensive Knights SR25 mags. Most of us would consider the Knights product to be the "industry standard" (at least until the PMAGLR20 came out). In addition, C-products magazines do not have a Magpul or Knights reputation in most calibers, and most people going into harm's way would not be comfortable being issued only C-products mags. I understand that LWRCI may have wanted to get ahead of the other 7.62 platforms hitting the market. However, I suspect that the REPR would have been better served by waiting for the PMAGLR20 to hit the market to insure compliance with a product that was likely to set the standard. Instead, a good number of us REPR owners found ourselves in a position where the REPR had ZERO functional mags for a few weeks after C-Products changed their design. Fortunately, LWRCI bent over backwards to fix the issue and I now have 1500 flawless rounds thru my REPR with PMAGLR20s.
So, when a new products such as the REPR hits the market and has reliability problems, it set a first impression that is very hard to overcome (as opposed to an established platform having a limited, bad batch leave the factory). In addition, the mag catch replacement seems to have solved the reliability problems, but the PMAGs do not have tight lock-up in the well and tend to have a little rattle and play.
Having said all of that, I'd take a LWRCI M6A2 DEA model or new production REPR into combat long before I'd allow myself to be caught dead with a factory spec RRA (pun intended).
THANKS for the insightful posts. I'm disappointed that our current gun industry (in this case RRA, though they are not alone, obviously) cannot consistently make properly functioning weapons systems - particularly the AR-15 Platform as it's approaching 50 years old.
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