View Full Version : Newb warning: Can anyone give me the 'go-ahead' on these parts? (or any advice)
A few days ago I was hit with the strong impulse to get an AR. Up to this point, AKs in 7.62 and 5.45 (and a Marlin .22LR) are pretty much the only rifles I've owned/shot. I've spent quite a bit of time reading and posting at theakforum.net, so I guess it was inevitable that I would find myself over here looking for information when the time came to get an AR. So far the forum has been a huge help in getting past the initial learning curve. (Thanks!). Anyway, over the last few days I have hit a bunch of your stickies, done some searches, and while I suspect I am missing some critical info here and there, I think I might have my build narrowed down.
What do you think?
LMT Defender 2000 Lower
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=124
BCM Standard 20" Government Profile Upper Receiver Group
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM-URG-GOV-20&CartID=1 (+Optional BCM Bolt Carrier Group & Handle Package )
Rifle Length Handguards BLACK
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Handguards+Rifle+Length+Black&CartID=3
Troy Folding Battle Sight - REAR
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Troy+Rear+Sight+-+Rear&CartID=4
Is the price at Rainier Arms decent? They are geographically close to me, so I'm tempted to buy retail. Am I forgetting some really critical part that I am going to need to snap this beast together? I am open to any and all advice at this point. Thanks in advance.
Take a look at dynamicarmament.com for the LMT lower. Why the 20" barrel? IS there a reason? I would go with a 16".
LMT Defender 2000 Lower
http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=124
Yup, good stuff. LMT is a .mil contractor and their products are up to snuff. But as the rest of your list is BCM, why not just build a whole BCM rifle? Also, personally I dislike the Ergo grip but if you like it that is what matters.
Also, you might want to note that on BCM website you can buy a complete BCM lower. It just seems that would match better with a BCM upper, but again it is your rifle so your preference counts.
BCM Standard 20" Government Profile Upper Receiver Group
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=BCM-URG-GOV-20&CartID=1 (+Optional BCM Bolt Carrier Group & Handle Package )
Yup, good quality.
Rifle Length Handguards BLACK
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Handguards+Rifle+Length+Black&CartID=3
Just fine. I bet you are the only guy in the entire year of 2010 who buys standard handguards though.
Troy Folding Battle Sight - REAR
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=Troy+Rear+Sight+-+Rear&CartID=4
Top notch.
Is the price at Rainier Arms decent?
For a lot of these parts there is not much price variation. The exception seems to be BCM uppers which sell for a lot less than many competitive uppers even though the BCMs are better quality. I have ordered several times from Rainier and they have been excellent. So has bravocompanyusa.com.
Am I forgetting some really critical part that I am going to need to snap this beast together? I am open to any and all advice at this point.
You just need to put the upper on the lower and push the pins together, run a patch through the barrel, lube up the bolt carrier group and go shoot.
One thing that is odd about your setup is that you are putting a carbine lower with a rifle upper. Typically guys put a 16 inch mid-length gas system upper on a carbine lower, or they use a 20 inch barrel with a rifle buffer assembly. So I am a bit confused about what you are trying to achieve with that particular setup.
Congratulations on this purchase and you sure seem to be headed in the right direction. It's a relief and a pleasure to see a fellow who is not tempted to cut corners on his first AR15.
@Iraqgunz: Thanks for the tip. That looks like a good price.
I am leaning towards a 20" barrel because I like the idea of the higher velocity and the government profile barrel doesn't sound too heavy. My gut is telling me to go with a 20" now but that probably just means my second AR is going to be short and light.
Just fine. I bet you are the only guy in the entire year of 2010 who buys standard handguards though.
Congratulations on this purchase and you sure seem to be headed in the right direction. It's a relief and a pleasure to see a fellow who is not tempted to cut corners on his first AR15.
lol, I bought a set till I found a M5 RAS at the right price. So that will make two of us.;)
All the parts are solid choices. The only thing I would do different is try and pick up a BCM lower and get a Vltor A5 EMOD stock set.
Last month, I bought one of the BCM 20'' uppers. I wanted an old fashioned KISS rifle, no thrills, no optic, no railed handguards, that I can mount on the lower I already had for my SPR. this way, I'll go back to the basics (iron sights, carrying handle), while using it as a training tool when my buddies/squadron mates want to learn how to shoot a rifle.
I also bought the black handguards (that makes three of us!) and asked the good guys at BCM to install it when they shipped it to me.
I'm very happy with my purchase, and the summer sale price can't be beat. Highly recommend!
@500grains: Wow thanks for the detailed reply!
As for your first point, I do like the BCM A4 rifle and I am tempted to buy it. For that matter, I also looked around for a comparably configured Colt (which I don't believe exists). I am leaning towards building from parts because of the massive tax that we now have to pay doing transfers. I'd much rather pay the tax on a $350 complete lower than the whole rifle, but there I go cutting corners. I like the idea of complete uppers and lowers, because it solves the tax issue, but doesn't sound like it involves any building expertise. Maybe I should pair the upper with a BCM lower, though.
And as for the carbine lower and the rifle upper: that was pretty much out of ignorance, I didn't know there was a difference. What exactly is the difference between a carbine lower and a rifle lower? Just for the sake of understanding, are you saying that if I swapped out the carbine buffer for a $15 rifle buffer, it would then be a rifle lower, or is there something more?
Honestly, I've never felt the ergo grip, but I was drawn to that complete lower because it's an LMT, and in part, because it includes the adjustable carbine stock, which I will probably find useful as I adjust my stance from short Warsaw length stocks. I will look at that Vltor A5.
I was lurking a bit after starting this thread and discovered that Rainier opened a storefront around here in the last year, so I will definitely be stopping by there, one way or another, to check the place out. Now that I know I can just pick up the LMT lower retail with no transfer fee or shipping, I'm really tempted to just combine the BCM and LMT, although I don't want to do something idiotic regarding the whole rifle vs. carbine parts thing. I hear 2 of you urging me to go all BCM, are there any known issues combining the LMT lower and BCM upper or would this just be playing it extra safe?
Thanks guys.
spamsammich
08-11-10, 01:46
check your private messages.
Blankwaffe
08-11-10, 01:59
Retract my recommendations.
Thanks, I'm looking into that now.
ETA: Yes, the C7A2 does look like exactly what I had in mind. So it sounds like these particular parts with the carbine buffer might just work out of the box, but the C7A2 uses an H2 buffer so I may need that if I run into problems. Some people are also referring to a different buffer spring but I have no idea the specs on that.
Personally, I like the Ergo Ambi Grip. They are comfortable for me when handling a rifle for long periods of time. I have them on two rifles I use constantly.
Failure2Stop
08-11-10, 12:39
It's your gun and your dime, so do what you want, but there really isn't much need for 20" barrels, and for some reason 20s with collapsible stocks are way more nose-heavy than even an 18.
When most people strip away all the unnecessary for a true General Purpose rifle, they generally come down to a 16" gun, with pretty much everyoke between a 14.5 and 18, with a few using SBRs. It's for a good reason.
Anyway, have fun in your search.
Take a look at dynamicarmament.com for the LMT lower. Why the 20" barrel? IS there a reason? I would go with a 16".
Second on that. It's cheaper and it's not AS heavy as a 20''.
Hm, I may need to handle some similar configurations before I buy. I guess I should take another look at midlengths as well.
You would be wise to listen to Failure2Stop and Iraqgunz, they simply know what they are talking about. When I was getting my first AR15 I wish I had the opportunity to get their advice.
All the components you have selected are good quality, I have 3 LMT Defender 2000 lowers and they have no problems mating up to a BCM upper. They are good lowers. However, if I was doing it again I would buy a BCM or Daniel Defense lower. The finish on the DD and BCM lowers are better than the LMTs I have a DD and a BCM in addition to the 3 LMTs. I have 5 sets of the Troy folding sights they are excellent.
I will second the guys advice above and recommend:
BCM Lower
BCM 16" mid length gas system upper with BCM bolt carrier group and charging handle
BCM mid length handguards
Troy sights
The 16" mid length is the "sweet spot" in the AR rifles.
Cameron
According to this thread, you only gain about 3-4% in velocity going for the 20" over a 16," so I guess that sort of rules out any major ballistic advantage:
https://www.m4carbine.net/archive/index.php/t-26436.html
I still feel drawn towards a full length gas system. I suppose it's because of all the passing comments I've heard about the 20" being cleaner, putting less wear on parts, having lighter recoil, and being more "reliable." I have also heard that these are exaggerations, which seems to be the tone in the current thread. I guess the mid length may be the best of both worlds.
Failure2Stop
08-13-10, 05:40
I highly recommend the BCM 16" middie with 13" JP/Vtac Extreme HG. Cost effective, good barrel protection, free-floated, easy to pull off.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-VTAC-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20vtrx13.htm
I have the same one with a BFH barrel (a little more $, but not much), and it is my favorite GP carbine.
The 16" middies are a great bench-mark; able to do everything pretty well. Unless you are shooting Service Rifle High Power competitions, a 20" barrel with a fixed FSB is not going to bring much more to the capability of the rifle.
But hey, some people just like certain things. If you really want a 20" barrel, go merrily ahead. I am certainly not going to think less of you either way.
Good to see you over here man.
Go 16".
You'll get another AR sooner or later, and with that one, sure, make it a 20" A2 or A4 clone....
Failure2Stop has had to hump around a lot of A2's and A4's, listen to him.....
Nexus, the rifle buffer tube / receiver extension is longer.
As you are broadening the search to 16", here is a great offering:
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=207
And here is a fantastic upper (M249 bbl steel) which you can drop onto any lower of your preference, thus avoiding the large tax:
http://www.centurionarms.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=47&category_id=18&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=134
I liked the idea of going all BCM, but I got the SOPMOD stock that I had been jonesing for at a little below market value by picking up the complete LMT lower with LMT NM 2-stage trigger at a very convenient local shop, out the door for $525 (thanks for the tip, spamsammich). I realize that the stock and trigger are expensive, and maybe not worth it from a cost vs. practicality perspective, but the stock is pretty solid and happens to get a lot of 'cool factor' points from me, and I generally prefer 2 stage triggers.
It sounds like the jury is in on the 16" barrel with mid length gas system, so I will probably place an order with BCM this evening on either the standard 16" midlength or the BFH for $100 more + $135 BCM BCG and charging handle. I really like the free floated, railed uppers posted by failure2stop and 500grains, but they are a little more expensive than I can afford now. I'm just going to get cheap, standard hand guards and save money in the interim while I get used to the platform and save money for optics. I'm pretty happy with the accuracy I can get from my Saigas and Bulgarian 74s, so I will probably be impressed with the AR before taking any steps to accurize it. :)
Thanks for the welcome, Templar. I first heard about this board in some of your posts on the AK forum.
I'll probably post some pics of the complete rifle next week when the upper arrives. Big thanks to the forum.
To me SOPMOD stocks are pretty heavy. If would've went with either a Magpul MOE or UBR.
PrivateCitizen
08-17-10, 16:37
To me SOPMOD stocks are pretty heavy. If would've went with either a Magpul MOE or UBR.
Correct me if I am wrong, but does a UBR not weight more than a SOPMOD?
Might...Not much of a difference, but it seems the UBR is better. But, that's my preference
Where weight is on a design can have more impact than how much. For many, the way a particular stock balances the gun for that person affects the way it feels that has little to do with overt weight.
Two swords, both the same weight, one curved, one straight. They'll feel different when you swing them just because they're shaped differently.
kaiservontexas
08-19-10, 09:10
Howdy Nexus and welcome to the AR world!
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i149/kyleomalley/IMG_2159.png
Hey kaiser, good to see another 'familiar face.'
Well the upper arrived today, the gun is assembled, and I just got back from my first quick trip to the range (150 rds of Walmart Federal 55 gr and Rem. UMC 55 gr). It was a lot of fun to shoot and I was immediately impressed by the accuracy.
An update on the current configuration: I ended up swapping out the ergo grip because the finger grooves started annoying me. I went for the hammer forged barrel, probably due to some bias I have from the AK world. The SOPMOD stock might not be the perfect stock, and it's certainly not the cheapest, but I have no problems with it from a functional stand point and it doesn't strike me as exceptionally heavy. I really like the sealed compartments for my tactical cigars and Slim Jims. :smile:
A few issues:
1 - I wish I could say it shot with no malfunctions, but I did have a stovepipe while rapid firing the fourth mag. It was either with a 30 rd C-Products stainless mag or USGI aluminum mag. I am wondering if this was due to the mag, maybe that the lower came with a carbine buffer rather than an H buffer, or maybe because I did not install the BCM extractor O-ring because I read really quick before leaving for the range that it's not necessary. Also, I lubed up the bolt carrier pretty liberally, but I did not lube inside the gas key because I did not realize at the time that I was supposed to. Any guesses at what caused the failure?
Other than that hang up, which I imagine will be ironed out by my next trip to the range (with 500 rounds of Silver Bear, mind you) I had a lot of fun.
2 - Is it normal for the hand guard to have maybe 2 mm of rotational play and 1 mm fore-aft? Also, the hand guard vent holes don't quite line up with the holes in the heat shield. Is that normal? Since I heard it takes 4 hands, I asked the guys at the gun shop (which can remain nameless since I'm otherwise grateful) to help me install it. They had tremendous difficulty with it and didn't get it installed until after taking it to the back room, so I can't help but wonder if maybe it's damaged. (lol).
3 - The upper and lower rattle ever so slightly on the assembled rifle. I saw a picture of someone's disassembled AR where they had an O-ring stretched over the lug for the front take-down pin. Would this eliminate the rattle? Is it worth doing? I don't made the slightly mismatched finish on the upper and lower, but it would be nice to get them mated up more solidly.
Big thanks to the forum.
1- Ammo and mag are the first things to look at. C-prod aren't well regarded, and UMC, if I recall right, is fairly low-pressure ammo. Not automatically The Answer, but try to isolate those two factors before looking at the internal stuff.
2- Some movement in the handguards isn't out of the ordinary, and the delta ring will be tight for some time. There's a simple handguard removal tool you can get, if it comes to that. Vent holes....not sure. Next time you have the handguards off, check the corners of the heat shield to see if they're firmly in the slots that they mount to on the inside of the handguard. Unless they're moving, should have no impact on performance.
3- Not an issue at all. Do a Search using the word "Accuwedge." You'll see uppper/lower slop asked about a couple of thousand times. Unless the fit is so loose that the bloody takedown pins are walking out on you, or some nonsense like that, it's also no impact on either performance or accuracy.
Happy shooting!
spamsammich
08-21-10, 02:43
Using a heavier buffer with underpowered ammo and shitty mags on a middy is a recipe for cycling issues. Leave the gun alone and get better mags and ammo. All of my middys ran fine on carbine or H buffers. I've found carbine buffers to be more friendly with shitty ammo.
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i149/kyleomalley/IMG_2159.png
A few issues:
1 - I wish I could say it shot with no malfunctions, but I did have a stovepipe while rapid firing the fourth mag. It was either with a 30 rd C-Products stainless mag or USGI aluminum mag. I am wondering if this was due to the mag, maybe that the lower came with a carbine buffer rather than an H buffer, or maybe because I did not install the BCM extractor O-ring because I read really quick before leaving for the range that it's not necessary. Also, I lubed up the bolt carrier pretty liberally, but I did not lube inside the gas key because I did not realize at the time that I was supposed to. Any guesses at what caused the failure?
Other than that hang up, which I imagine will be ironed out by my next trip to the range (with 500 rounds of Silver Bear, mind you) I had a lot of fun.
I think much of your problem is probably the UMC. While I have never used any of the Russian steel-cased ammo in my 2 5.56 ARs, when I first got my LMT, I shot a couple hundred rounds of UMC, thinking I got a bargain at Bass Pro. I had numerous FTFs and a couple stovepipes. Since then, the worst (actually not bad, but lowest quality) ammo I have used is Privi XM193, with no malfuntions over a couple thousand rounds. I also use IMI (Isreali Military Industry) and Lake City XM193 as range/plinking ammo. For hunting varmints, I use Hornaday 55gr VMax or SSA 64gr SP, and Hornaday 5.56 75gr T2 TAP for my home defense ammo. My SHTF stash is all TAP or Lake City XM193.
I also have a BCM middy, mounted on a DD lower. It eats up that XM193. So should yours. Lake City is getting down to the $320-345 range for 1000rds, which is a bargain compared to a year or so ago.
kaiservontexas
08-21-10, 19:15
Yep need better ammo and mags. The accuwedge stuff is a non-problem seeking a solution to noobs used to other things. Think of it as that Glock thread on the akforum where the person was asking why they could see through in-between the frame and slide.
RogerinTPA
08-21-10, 19:47
Using a heavier buffer with underpowered ammo and shitty mags on a middy is a recipe for cycling issues. Leave the gun alone and get better mags and ammo. All of my middys ran fine on carbine or H buffers. I've found carbine buffers to be more friendly with shitty ammo.
Agreed.
I use carbine buffers on midlengths and H buffers on carbine lengths. Both function very well with eastern european steel cased ammo (wolf, barnaul, brown bear, silver bear). Sell or trade the CProds for Pmags or good USGI Aluminum like DSG, Bravo (both D&H mags with different floor plates) OKAY or NHMTG mags (they are produced by the same manufactuerer) with MagPull followers. For Christ sakes, do not add an accuwedge.
Thanks for the tips.
I removed the hand guards. Apparently the heat shields were kind of mangled. I bent them back into proper shape so that they are straighter and so that they aren't touching the plastic except at the tabs and aren't touching the barrel, and reinstalled them (which was actually pretty easy--go figure) I also might have flipped the top and bottom halves. Anyway, now it seems a bit better, or at least it isn't bothering me.
As for the lower and upper having slight play, I won't worry about it.
Luckily, I don't have a bunch of those C-products mags, or the Walmart UMC ammo. I have p-mags coming in the mail, but for the sake of driving straight from the shop to the range to test fire the gun, I bought 2 USGI mags, 2 p-mags and a C-products mag off the shelf. I was hoping I could get away with buying a cheap mag but I guess not. The UMC and Federal brass was just what they had in stock at Walmart on my way to the range. If I stop there for ammo again soon, I'll just stick with Federal.
From what I've heard, Russian ammo is underpowered, so I hope I don't run into problems with that too, because I would like to avoid plinking with spendy ammo. In line with what you are saying Roger, I've heard people say, 'If your AR can't shoot wolf, there's something wrong with your AR,' so with good mags, I'm going to assume it will be fine. Anyway, I guess there isn't much use in speculating any further. I'm going to head back to the range as soon as the case of Silver Bear arrives and blast off half of it in one session. Hopefully with a little testing, I can simply chuck a bad mag, avoid the UMC, and proceed trouble-free. Thanks again.
ETA 8/26: Well the Silver Bear still doesn't arrive until tomorrow, but since I was dying to take the gun out again, I picked up 160 rds of some overpriced Wolf and S&B ammo at a local place and blasted it off at the range, this time without using the C-Products mag or the UMC. It ran perfectly. Not that any of you were expecting it to fail, but I will probably post again after giving it a little 500 round steel case 'torture test' this weekend.
Not that anybody was eagerly awaiting an update, but since I've been to the range a couple times since I last updated this thread, I thought I would do a little recap.
So far, I have put about 1,200 rounds through the rifle, and as you already know, I've had some mixed results. My first trip with the USGI, P-Mags, and a C-Products mag with Federal XM193 and Rem UMC didn't go that well, as I had a FTF, which based on the forum's counsel, I have blamed on the UMC and C-products mag. Next, I went to the range and blasted off a couple hundred rounds of Wolf and S&B FMJ with no issues, using only USGI D&H mags and P-mags.
My next trip was with a case of half Silver Bear FMJ and half HP. I fired about 450 rounds and had many failures with the hollow points, particularly with the USGI mags. Almost one FTF per mag as the HPs jammed up against the feed ramps.
Today, I just got back from firing another 450 rounds of S&B, Wolf, and Silver Bear FMJ, and also some Silver Bear HPs. This time I brought only the P-Mags, and the gun ran like a raped ape, alternating between slow fire and mag dumps, with some cool down periods as I shot pistols. I cleaned and lubed it yesterday, but the gun didn't get any new oil today.
My findings: Silver Bear HPs and D&H USGI mags don't mix with this rifle, but it shoots the HPs fine with P-Mags. C-Products mags and Rem UMC failed, and I have yet to test which one was really the culprit (and I won't bother finding out, because avoiding both of the above in the future will be easy enough).
The gun seems to run perfectly with cheap FMJ, ie., Silver Bear, Wolf, and S&B through USGI or P-Mags. Offhand, as I have been shooting it so far, it is more accurate than me. I am very happy with the rifle, and I owe the forum a big thank you for helping me make these first few steps into the AR world. THANKS.
...and back to lurking I go...
Funny you should say an LMT Defender with SOPMOD stock, and a 20" barrel with a BCM upper. This is exactly the configuration of what I'm currently working on.
To me, it gives the best of both worlds that I'm looking for; a 1-7 twist WOA barrel gives me long range accuracy and rifle reliabity that I desire, while the SOPMOD gives more flexibility for CQB when compared to carrying an A2 stocked full length rifle.
I've also seen photos of such 20" carbines as a common configuration of the Canadian Military.......perhaps not such an implausible configuraton after all? (Not that I'm saying anything used in conjunction with a French based military has been of historical excellence :D )
Good luck with your new rifle. Enjoy.
Yeah, I'm really happy with the 16" mid length, but I am still interested in getting a C7 type configuration at some point. I wouldn't mind seeing a range report after you get yours running. I think my next AR will probably have a pencil barrel, but I'm really not sure which gas system, as I have a few different ideas in mind.
Yeah, I'm really happy with the 16" mid length, but I am still interested in getting a C7 type configuration at some point. I wouldn't mind seeing a range report after you get yours running. I think my next AR will probably have a pencil barrel, but I'm really not sure which gas system, as I have a few different ideas in mind.
This 20" project is looking to take FOREVER. I couldn't believe that there wasn't one cotton-picking upper (out of 5) to fit tightly on it at the gun-show! Not sure if I'll ditch the LMT lower, or send it back to LMT and ask them to hand fit an upper and sell it to me. I might end up using the tight RRA NM A4 upper/lower combo. Yea.....I'll eventually let you know how it goes. LOL
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