View Full Version : Feds Make Twice as Much as Private Sector Employees
geezerbutler
08-10-10, 22:02
Federal Workers are making twice that of workers in the private sector.
This cannot be sustained but it is still going strong.
It's not a Republican or Democrat issue,
it's an out of control Congress( Repub & Dem) / Government Issue.
On top of this I bet they don't factor in the Thrift Savings Plan where the Governemnt "Gives Free Money"to all of it's employees who participate.
You can check out the TSP here.
www.tsp.gov
The article on Federal Salaries is here:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm
I don't give a rip what they do...these salaries, which couldn't exist without taxing entrepreneurs/private sector businesses, cannot be justified.
I don't believe this takes into account military salaries.
But if anyone working for the United States Government should make
$100K, it should be our brave men and women in the military.
These Alphabet Agency employees need to be taken way way down in pay.
Federal Government workers are becoming the Elite in society.
To add insult to injury Feds are "only" going to get a 1.4 % COLA raise in 2011.
They could get more though....
How many of you in non-federal, government jobs, or those in the private sector are guaranteed a raise any time in the near future?
rickrock305
08-10-10, 23:05
How many of you in non-federal, government jobs, or those in the private sector are guaranteed a raise any time in the near future?[/COLOR][/SIZE]
quite the opposite in fact. many folks are taking pay cuts just to keep their jobs.
Littlelebowski
08-10-10, 23:07
COLA increase when there's no inflation.....nice.
sorry meant to create a new topic
Eliminate all forms of health insurance and price discrimination in healthcare and you won't have to pay a penny for those benefits.
Get rid of double dipping after retirement. Put in 30 years and you get 75%, not 100%.
Readjust all federal and state wages to the wage of the average working person in their area. Doesn't matter if you're the dog catcher, patrolman, police chief, councilman, or the mayor. Don't like it? Maybe your heart just isn't in civil service. The free market pays better if you're worth it.
No more collective bargaining needed, you get paid about the same as every other joe in your town.
Take a look at some of these salaries and try not to shit yourself, not all Federal, but plenty of firefighters making close to or in lots of cases more than $250k a year in the Vegas area: http://www2.8newsnow.com/salaries/search.php?agency=all&type=all&limit=25&q=.
Read this article this morning... A great example of honesty & integrity amongst the NYPD: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/ex_cops_in_ych_out_4nU7DbYE1j3TsBLfeaCO3L
The 55-year-old Long Beach councilman was deemed an asthmatic with diminished lung capacity when the city granted him a three-quarters-pay, $86,000-a-year disability pension two months after 9/11 -- earning him the sarcastic moniker "Johnny Lungs" among neighbors.
Despite his pulmonary disability, McLaughlin is a long-distance runner who since his retirement has competed in the New York Marathon, half-marathon races and even grueling triathlons that also include strenuous biking and swimming, sources said.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/paid_for_no_wheezin_jbt34b3pBFo4vbmWHn1DGO
quite the opposite in fact. many folks are taking pay cuts just to keep their jobs.
huffington post tell you that ?
this was from USAToday Aug 10
Last week, President Obama ordered a freeze on bonuses for 2,900 political appointees. For the rest of the 2-million-person federal workforce, Obama asked for a 1.4% across-the-board pay hike in 2011
•Benefits. Federal workers received average benefits worth $41,791 in 2009. Most of this was the government's contribution to pensions. Employees contributed an additional $10,569.
•Pay. The average federal salary has grown 33% faster than inflation since 2000. USA TODAY reported in March that the federal government pays an average of 20% more than private firms for comparable occupations. The analysis did not consider differences in experience and education.
•Total compensation. Federal compensation has grown 36.9% since 2000 after adjusting for inflation, compared with 8.8% for private workers.
The federal compensation advantage has grown from $30,415 in 2000 to $61,998 last year.
http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/longjobs1.gif
USA Today recently reported that in December 2007, a total of 1,868 civilian workers in the Defense Department earned $150,000 or more; by June 2009, the number was 10,100. In late ‘07, the paper says, just one employee at the Transportation Department earned more than $170,000. Less than two years later, 1,690 workers earned that much.
or
http://images.usatoday.com/news/graphics/2010/2010-08-10-fedpay/fedpay.jpg
variablebinary
08-11-10, 03:38
As a kid, it was well known that civil service and public service paid ass, but in return you get nice benefits and no corporate America stupidity, which is worth gold in my book.
Guess that isnt so anymore. You can get paid well, the sweet benefits, and never get fired...
Makes the private sector less appealing for sure.
Still, I don't care about this as much as I care about social security and entitlement reform. You could fire 10,000 federal workers and it wouldn't come close to the savings gained by a meager 2% cut to social security and entitlements.
Voodoochild
08-11-10, 05:16
I can tell you first hand that the USA Today stuff is BS..Gov workers don't get paid squat in comaprison to private sector. If the Gov was setup more like private sector than things would be a lot more streamlined. I was once a .Mil contractor and was paid a nice salary went overseas and worked in Afghanistan and was paid 6 figures. Left there and went to Honduras (HonDirty) and got paid a nice salary. Left there and went into Gov work and took a nice paycut.
Private sector gets paid more and is more streamlined and more efficent. But you have to deal with a butt ton more drama and backstabing.
then dont go to USA Today ? go to any stats gov people in gov are making way more than ever facts are facts
they are making a ton in benefits etc..
mil contractors friging rape the gov cause the gov pays !!!!!!
so yes you make big bucks but lets go to say another company and work like costco !! then see what you make compared
Private sector mil contractors are not truly private since they are paid by gov who over pays for things !
do a job that is not attached to the gov and see how the pay goes
and if that same job was in the private sector chances are it would be less
our military guys and gals are way way way underpaid for what they do
not knocking the contract jobs :) I would not mind one
FD is a good one when I was in back in the 80s it was a good job you got good pay and could get a good living
now I know some in the FD and they have million dollar homes and boats and RVs and make insane amounts and are going to retire with insane amounts
the base is low but the benefits and weird ways they get extra money now is wrong !!!!!!
not all of them get this sadly !
voodoo I don't know exactly your line of work but I don't think we're talking about trigger-pullers here. We're talking about secretaries, file clerks, middle-managers, etc.
VB is right, civil service and gov't jobs used to pay less but in return you got stability, good insurance benefits, and good retirement (frankly if those same people had taken public sector jobs and simply invested the pay differential they would have come out the same, but I digress). My father, for example, chose to work a career in the state govt. because it offered better stability for us, his family.
At some point things on the fed side got out of hand. I have a friend that works in an office with both fed and state workers, and the fed workers doing the exact same jobs get paid significantly more than their state counterparts.
Watch for more and more indignation over this kind of thing. As private sector folks lose more and more jobs, and more and more govt agencies get created by the party in charge, people are going to bitch more and more about the pay scale for govt employees especially when their former coworkers are taking those positions and they aren't.
Nathan_Bell
08-11-10, 06:21
As a kid, it was well known that civil service and public service paid ass, but in return you get nice benefits and no corporate America stupidity, which is worth gold in my book.
Guess that isnt so anymore. You can get paid well, the sweet benefits, and never get fired...
Makes the private sector less appealing for sure.
Still, I don't care about this as much as I care about social security and entitlement reform. You could fire 10,000 federal workers and it wouldn't come close to the savings gained by a meager 2% cut to social security and entitlements.
$13 trillion in unfunded liabilities thanks to SS. There is another $107 Trillion out there in government defined benefit pensions. You have to realize that the benefit and pay balloon went through all levels of government. You will have counties, cities, and states going bankrupt due to these pensions fairly soon. Too many of these defined benefit plans were renegotiated using entirely too optimistic growth models 10%+ annualized growth is not a sane baseline to use to define the future benefit pool, but that is what more than a few did. Now that they are looking at 2-6% they are toast.
$13 trillion in unfunded liabilities thanks to SS. There is another $107 Trillion out there in government defined benefit pensions. You have to realize that the benefit and pay balloon went through all levels of government. You will have counties, cities, and states going bankrupt due to these pensions fairly soon. Too many of these defined benefit plans were renegotiated using entirely too optimistic growth models 10%+ annualized growth is not a sane baseline to use to define the future benefit pool, but that is what more than a few did. Now that they are looking at 2-6% they are toast.
More people need to be aware of and talking about the huge salaries and benefit packages that some (many?) govt workers receive. It is totally out of control for some with fewer and fewer working stiffs to pay for it all. It is simple math and I am surprised more people don't see it. I believe it is one of the biggest problems we face as a nation.
geezerbutler
08-11-10, 07:45
More people need to be aware of and talking about the huge salaries and benefit packages that some (many?) govt workers receive. It is totally out of control for some with fewer and fewer working stiffs to pay for it all. It is simple math and I am surprised more people don't see it. I believe it is one of the biggest problems we face as a nation.
That's right. Without taxes paid by individuals...private sector people there wouldn't be a "Public (Government) Sector"
Yes we know all Government Workers pay the same types of taxes every other non-government worker pays. But they only exist because there are small, medium, and large size businesses paying taxes.
A county wouldn't need a tax collector if there weren't non-government jobs allowing people to earn a living and to purchase cars, homes, etc....
I have a printout from the Thrift Savings Plan that I received a year or two ago that I am going to enclose with a letter to my congressman and ask him to tell me where the "Free" money given to all federal workers in the way of matching funds comes from.
Even if you don't think the USA Today report is wholly accurate, the bottom line is that Federal Workers pay CANNOT be justified.
Spending is spending and while there are many ways to cut it, I also say that we start with entitlements, namely WAGES for Government employees.
Former USDA employee Shirley Sherrod said it best when she asked if anyone has seen any federal workers laid off.
Of course not, and you won't either.
They are the only sector of the economy that is doing well (Other than Firearms :p) , even though they aren't producing or selling anything, just taxing, spending, and printing.
The feds have near total job security, meanwhile the rest of us worry how long our jobs , in the private or non-federal government sector will last.
Every time you hear a congressman , senator, mayor, governor, etc, say they are going to have to lay off firefighters and LEO's ask yourself why don't they just cut some of the exorbitant salaries and ridiculous benefits some people are receiving.
If the wealth needs to be spread around then I say the economic pain and suffering should be doled out as well.
Start with those that make bank working for the federal government.
Like I said they are becoming the Elite in todays America, all by design.
This isn't politics, this is the future of our country.
Spending into oblivion and intentionally putting and keeping people out of work is a path to chains and shackles and a complete loss of freedom.
I appreciate everyone's input.
On top of this I bet they don't factor in the Thrift Savings Plan where the Government "Gives Free Money"to all of it's employees who participate.
You can check out the TSP here.
www.tsp.gov
OK, I need to interject a little reality here as the ErrorNet has struck again. TSP is simply a federal version of the 401K program found in the private sector. It is a pre-tax, tax deferred investment, exactly like 401K. In 99.9% of cases, employees must put into the program, e.g. invest their own money, before getting any returns.
I don't know where all of this "free money" is, but there are only a small number of "feds" who receive matching contributions, and as I understand it, those fall under the FERS system. I know I have not ever received any matching contribution into my TSP, nor have I ever met anyone who has either.
Matching in the private sector is much more common, and as best as I can find, averages 3-6%.
Having said that, is there any logical reason why a "fed" shouldn't be able to participate in a TSP/401K-type investment program?
To add insult to injury Feds are "only" going to get a 1.4 % COLA raise in 2011.
I did a quick Google, and I cannot find a single example that states there will be any COLA increases for 2010 or 2011. In fact most info points to no COLA increases.
Having said that, COLA is a locality pay and I have never seen an "across the board" COLA rate hike, as that would make absolutely no sense. These rates are always based on the location. Therefore, if there are any COLA increases, this may be due to a spike in living costs in that particular area. Just because we have nationwide negative or flat inflation, that doesn't mean there are not locations where the cost of living has actually increased. The national number is simply an average.
NOW, I am not saying that federal spending and salaries are not out of control, but there are mountains of misinformation out there, and too many people are flying off the handle before checking the facts.
If there are facts that I am missing, please post.
geezerbutler
08-11-10, 09:17
I don't know where all of this "free money" is, but there are only a small number of "feds" who receive matching contributions, and as I understand it, those fall under the FERS system
Really?
There are three sources of TSP contribu-
tions:
• Employee Contributions
• Agency Automatic (1%) Contributions
• Matching Contributions
Something smells of the TSA here....
I know I have not ever received any matching contribution into my TSP, nor have I ever met anyone who has either.
If you are not receiving matching money, then you are not under FERS.
I have participated in the TSP and If you say you are not receiving matching money and are a member of FERS then maybe you should educate yourself by looking at your LES.
The program is not even voluntary anymore. Every federal employee receives an agency contribution to the TSP, if you contribute on your own then you also receive matching money.
TSP Eligibility- basically everyone
If this guy is not covered he is most likely not a federal employee.
No, wait, I take that back. He probably is a federal employee - evidenced by the fact that he's not even aware of the free money he's getting.
https://www.tsp.gov/planparticipation/eligibility/participantEligibility.shtml
From the TSP Site on the page linked above.
Who Is Eligible to Participate in the TSP?
Most employees of the United States Government are eligible to participate in the Thrift Savings Plan. You are eligible if you are:
A Federal Employees' Retirement System (FERS) employee (generally if you were hired on or after January 1, 1984), or
A Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) employee (generally if you were hired before January 1, 1984 and did not convert to FERS), or
A member of the uniformed services (active duty or Ready Reserve), or
A civilian in certain other categories of Government service.
From the TSP Brochure
https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/tspbk08.pdf
There are three sources of TSP contribu-
tions:
• Employee Contributions
• Agency Automatic (1%) Contributions
• Matching Contributions
Having said that, is there any logical reason why a "fed" shouldn't be able to participate in a TSP/401K-type investment program?
Did I ever infer or state that Feds should not have a 401 Kish program?
You read something that wasn't there.
I simply adressessd salaries and Matching or "Free" money as referenced here in the Federal Government' own TSP Highlights brochure that I referred to earlier.
Pardon me while I whip this out....... should I dare to use a publication by the Government to back my position?
Go read the 3rd paragraph, or the second bulleted Dollar sign $ on the 1st page.
https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/high09a.pdf
Matching in the private sector is much more common, and as best as I can find, averages 3-6%.
That's great because the majority of those matching funds would be shareholder monies and I don't care if a corporation matches 15% if that's what it wants to do. The Government giving it's employees matching money is another thing entirely.
I did a quick Google, and I cannot find a single example that states there will be any COLA increases for 2010 or 2011. In fact most info points to no COLA increases.
I was wrong there, when I stated COLA -
It's just a raise period that they get every year. It's ONLY 1.4% this year.
Read it here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020103588.html
Peter Orzag, the completely clueless elitist idiot with Timothy Geithner like skills said, when refering to the 1.4% increase
"frankly, I think to a lot of Americans, sounds pretty good,"
HAVING A DAMN JOB WOULD SOUND PRETTY GOOD TO A LOT OF AMERICANS. - Getting any type of raise would be icing on the cake.
And yes, I am yelling.
What type raises did M4c'ers or anyone else reading get this year and what are you slated to get next year?
The Dems are up there saying these 2 teachers are going to be fired if they don't spend $26,000,000,000 dollars.
I've got an idea....CUT all federal non-military salaries gradually over the next serveral years starting at 5% and work your way up to 20%.
They always want to talk about how much their SPENDING cuts the deficit.
How about cutting spending to cut the deficit?
Why won't some conservative non-politician run on a platform such as this? He may not win, and would get beat up in the media.....but I don't believe we're a country of panzies. People like this need to come out of the woodwork and stop this shit now.
What do all the previously employed, now unemployed workers who were told that the stimulus bill was passed to keep theirjobs think about this new bill when they're still out of work?
I would be nice if about 70% of the voting populaiton would call bullshit on these policies of both the right and left.
Sadly, a large portion of the population can't see or smell bullshit even when the politicians are steadily rubbing it in their face.
First, "Cool out, McCloud." And I don't really like the personal implications you're making. :nono:
Second, OK, I stand corrected on the Civilian side of TSP. I am not under FERS, I am military, fall under "High Three", and receive NO automatic contributions or matching into my TSP. Every dollar in my TSP I either put there myself or earned on return.
Third, even with your clarification, and while some of my premises were incorrect, my general argument is still valid. TSP is still no more beneficial than private 401Ks. In fact they sound extremely similar, even down to the automatic contributions. Private companies do that all the time, although admittedly they may have been reduced somewhat during the recession, I don't know.
And again, don't lump me in with "federal workers". I am not on any one's side and I really don't care if the GS schedule gets the dickens cut out of it. But too often, feelings get in the way of interpretations.
Really?
There are three sources of TSP contribu-
tions:
• Employee Contributions
• Agency Automatic (1%) Contributions
• Matching Contributions
Something smells of the TSA here....
If you are not receiving matching money, then you are not under FERS.
I have participated in the TSP and If you say you are not receiving matching money and are a member of FERS then maybe you should educate yourself by looking at your LES.
The program is not even voluntary anymore. Every federal employee receives an agency contribution to the TSP, if you contribute on your own then you also receive matching money.
TSP Eligibility- basically everyone
If this guy is not covered he is most likely not a federal employee.
No, wait, I take that back. He probably is a federal employee - evidenced by the fact that he's not even aware of the free money he's getting.
https://www.tsp.gov/planparticipation/eligibility/participantEligibility.shtml
From the TSP Site on the page linked above.
Who Is Eligible to Participate in the TSP?
Most employees of the United States Government are eligible to participate in the Thrift Savings Plan. You are eligible if you are:
A Federal Employees' Retirement System (FERS) employee (generally if you were hired on or after January 1, 1984), or
A Civil Service Retirement System (CSRS) employee (generally if you were hired before January 1, 1984 and did not convert to FERS), or
A member of the uniformed services (active duty or Ready Reserve), or
A civilian in certain other categories of Government service.
From the TSP Brochure
https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/tspbk08.pdf
There are three sources of TSP contribu-
tions:
• Employee Contributions
• Agency Automatic (1%) Contributions
• Matching Contributions
Did I ever infer or state that Feds should not have a 401 Kish program?
You read something that wasn't there.
I simply adressessd salaries and Matching or "Free" money as referenced here in the Federal Government' own TSP Highlights brochure that I referred to earlier.
Pardon me while I whip this out....... should I dare to use a publication by the Government to back my position?
Go read the 3rd paragraph, or the second bulleted Dollar sign $ on the 1st page.
https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/high09a.pdf
That's great because the majority of those matching funds would be shareholder monies and I don't care if a corporation matches 15% if that's what it wants to do. The Government giving it's employees matching money is another thing entirely.
I was wrong there, when I stated COLA -
It's just a raise period that they get every year. It's ONLY 1.4% this year.
Read it here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/01/AR2010020103588.html
Peter Orzag, the completely clueless elitist idiot with Timothy Geithner like skills said, when refering to the 1.4% increase
"frankly, I think to a lot of Americans, sounds pretty good,"
HAVING A DAMN JOB WOULD SOUND PRETTY GOOD TO A LOT OF AMERICANS. - Getting any type of raise would be icing on the cake.
And yes, I am yelling.
What type raises did M4c'ers or anyone else reading get this year and what are you slated to get next year?
The Dems are up there saying these 2 teachers are going to be fired if they don't spend $26,000,000,000 dollars.
I've got an idea....CUT all federal non-military salaries gradually over the next serveral years starting at 5% and work your way up to 20%.
They always want to talk about how much their SPENDING cuts the deficit.
How about cutting spending to cut the deficit?
Why won't some conservative non-politician run on a platform such as this? He may not win, and would get beat up in the media.....but I don't beleive we're a country of panzies. People like this need to come out of the woodwork and stop this shit now.
What do all the previously employed, now unemployed workers who were told that the stimulus bill was passed to keep theirjobs think about this new bill when they're still out of work?
geezerbutler
08-11-10, 12:15
I have been looking into this for years now, but I'm no SME on it.
I have read a lot of the TSP docs, was in the program, and am pretty informed about the plan. Maybe someone else can chime in on the merits of the free money- and where it comes from exactly.
First, "Cool out, McCloud." And I don't really like the personal implications you're making. :nono:
You should have stated that you were in the military and you knew you didn't receive matching funds or conversely I could have replied and asked you a question instead of making a statement.
My post was obvious that in referring to federal employees, I meant those in non-military service. My previous post even referenced that.
Military is Military and federal employee means civilian-non uniform.
The implications were for someone who was under FERS, which you have stated doesn't apply to you.
I don't know where all of this "free money" is, but there are only a small number of "feds" who receive matching contributions, and as I understand it, those fall under the FERS system.
I didn't realize a federal civilian workforce numbering in the millions was a "Small number", all getting *their word* FREE MONEY.
Every dollar in my TSP I either put there myself or earned on return.
And if you read and understood my post you would know that I didn't knock that. That is the way it should be done.
Third, even with your clarification, and while some of my premises were incorrect, my general argument is still valid. TSP is still no more beneficial than private 401Ks. In fact they sound extremely similar, even down to the automatic contributions. Private companies do that all the time, although admittedly they may have been reduced somewhat during the recession, I don't know.
But where you are wrong is making a correlation between the retirement programs of PRIVATE companies ( controlled by a Board and the Shareholders) and completely taxpayer funded government agencies, which was already addressed in the previous post.
And the Non-military TSP is taxpayer funded and should not be giving away anything. The Government has nothing to give, other than what it takes and that is vastly reduced because of the destruction of tax revenue from millions being out of work.
But it's wrong even in the best of times.
Having said that I do realize corporations are given taxpayer money but they are not funded 100% by taxpayer money like the USG is.
I would agree that the military TSP is not any better than most other state, local, or private 401k's, but again I stated all along and provided references that showed I was talking about the TSP for civilian non-uniform government workers.
And I'm sure you're right about private CO. 401k's benefits taking a hit...which is why it's so important to point out that the Federal Government's TSP has NOT been affected by this economy
I certainly don't know all of the countries various retirement plans, but if it's a private company and I'm not a shareholder then I don't really have a say.
If it's the USG using my tax $$ or the state, local, or city using my Tax $$ then we ALL have a say.
My whole point in the post was educating those who've never worked for the USG in a civilian role that the TSP exists and that in this despicable economy , the federal spending juggernaut is still blowin' and goin' unchecked without the proverbial "pot to piss in"
Meanwhile, most other sectors of the economy and most non-government workers are affected, in terms of present or future employment.
I really don't care if the GS schedule gets the dickens cut out of it.
We can agree on that
But too often, feelings get in the way of interpretations.
The feelings are out, yes, but the important component of the post was the personal experience, and the documented facts, which were on full display, and available for those that were interested in learning more or fact checking what I had posted.
And again, don't lump me in with "federal workers".
I didn't, you simply chimed in to a thread about Federal Employee's TPS's - I never said the Military, and most @ M4c, including me, would have made such a distinction by saying "Those in the military".
You stated some things as fact and didn't reveal your employer in a thread talking about non-military benefits.
you lumped yourself in with federal civilian employees.
[SIZE="2"]I said this in the post that started the thread:https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=730539#post730539/SIZE]
But if anyone working for the United States Government should make
$100K, it should be our brave men and women in the military.
Ultimately, the sad thing is that the military has been denied the benefits afforded by the TSP to those non-uniformed federal employees until legislation gave them access in 2000 and even now they are don't get the "free money" the civilian Feds do!
Another point to be made about the government treating those in the military disparately to it's civilian workforce.
http://www.militaryhub.com/militarypay-retirement-thrift.cfm
Belmont31R
08-11-10, 12:23
This is the way of the future. Work for the government, get paid well, and have a huge retirement along with mostly steady work.
The old way of not so great pay is going away. Just look at your local city/county/state jobs, and people are getting paid pretty good. Maybe not as much as private sector but its still not bad. 45-65k a year starting out is pretty decent pay, and there are lots of other jobs around 80k. That is without benefits. Ive seen some real rediculous jobs, too, like community counselor that just needed a 4 year degree, and making 60k + all kinds of bennies.
The way I see it is our governments are addicted to tax money, and they just look ways to spend as much as possible. Where my dads house is located is is extra guilty of this. Nearly half the shit in that town is city or county owned. All these community buildings, parks, sports fields, pools, etc. They spend so much friggin money on all this shit its no wonder why we have to pay taxes every time you do anything but breathe. In my city they are building a 20 MILLION dollar HS football stadium, and there is a 30 million dollar one for the next city over that is about 2 miles away. Why on Earth does a HS sports team need that kind of field? I drove through one small town in North Carolina 2 weeks ago, and the place didn't look like it had a lot of money. There is this one really nice building, and as I drove past I saw it was a Federal building. Kinda a punch to the nuts when you live in a poor small down, and then here is this super nice looking building right in the middle of the place. Kinda says something doesnt it? But worker salaries are just part of this. Government is addicted, and drunk off our money. They cannot keep spending, and it gets more ridiculous every year. They just look for ways to spend huge amounts of money. 20 million for a hs football stadium? Sure why not. 10 million for a public park? Go ahead. 15 million for a new traffic lights along a 3 mile stretch of road? Who gives a **** its just tax money.
At the same time they are spending money several employers I talked to right after I got out of the Army said we'd love to hire you but we just had to lay a couple people off ourselves. Its not a good sign when governments can throw away money left and right....millions at a pop....but you contact some small businesses about employment, and they can't do it even if they wanted to. But they fall under the "rich" category so we gotta tax em to the tune of 40%, and then take 30% of their workers salaries, too.
I'm a DOI officer. At least for Department of Interior law enforcement, it depends on your duty location. For instance if you compare the salary of a 5-year veteran GL-09 field officer working near a major PD such as Austin(my brother is a LEO here) or Vegas(my cousin is a LEO here), then the salaries are almost identical between $45k-$50k a year. Some state officers that I've met make more than I do and I've put in almost 10 years in the Feds.
However, if you take the stats from rural Tennessee, the average deputy or PD officer makes only about $25k-$35k per year. The Federal law enforcment salary changes little between locations.
The AUSA(Assistant US Attornies) that I work with are lucky if they can make $100k a year. The average private sector attorney makes $250k a year.
I always remain skeptical of articles such as this one which lay down blanket statements that are often not entirely true. As always, given two different views of the same story, the truth is somewhere in the middle.
However, if you take the stats from rural Tennessee, the average deputy or PD officer makes only about $25k-$35k per year.
That's about right. The local PD here in Murfreesboro is hiring @ 35k / year.
dwhitehorne
08-11-10, 15:01
I would guess they are averaging all of the Federal salaries to all of the private sector. Here in the DC metro area. My LE pay is very close to the local LE here. In New York our pay scale starts out better than NYPD but after 5 years they start making more. In San Fransisco, our pay scale can be 5 to 10 thousand less than SFPD. As for retirement. I am in the FERS system and my LE retirement is 20 years at age 50. 25 years at any age and mandatory retirement at 57, but I can't get to my full thrift (401K) until 59 without a penalty. The max my pension can be is 47 percent of my high three years and you don't get 47 percent if you retire after 20 years. With the pension they then I can add my TSP. The value of my TSP was cut in half about 2 years ago like everyone elses.
As for the free money with TSP. I put in 15 percent. TSP adds a free 1 percent to all FERS employees and matches contributions up to 5 percent for a total of 6 percent.
As for us Feds being rich, well I do consider myself fortunate to have a job that I love. Full service PD with hardly any domestics. I will be transfering to the Firearms Section Supervisor position in the Fall :D so I will love it even more. My father-in-law retired from one of the larger local PD's in the area. 20 years and his pension is 85 percent. Much better that what I will get.
I think alot of the where the inflated number come from is the make up of the Federal Work force. I worked for one Agency where the average joe came in as a GS9 and went up 9,10,11 and 12 every year automatically. So everyone in the Agency after a few years was a 12, 13 with branch chiefs being 14's and SES. SES is where the big money is in the USG. From what I understand over the past 2 years the 14's and SES staff has gone up greatly in the USG. David
Cascades236
08-12-10, 15:05
Damn! I should apply for the Feds. Chaching
I don't think that the USA Today article was only talking about Fed LE. I think they were talking all civilian Federal employees. So the averages may be right, but maybe not really applicable to LE.
thopkins22
08-12-10, 22:41
Steven Greenhut, Editor in Chief of CalWatchdog.com and author of the new book, Plunder! How Public Employee Unions are Raiding Treasuries, Controlling Our Lives and Bankrupting the Nation sat down with Reason.tv's Ted Balaker to discuss the widening gap between public and private sector employment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or7jxSv29E8)
Steven Greenhut, Editor in Chief of CalWatchdog.com and author of the new book, Plunder! How Public Employee Unions are Raiding Treasuries, Controlling Our Lives and Bankrupting the Nation sat down with Reason.tv's Ted Balaker to discuss the widening gap between public and private sector employment. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or7jxSv29E8)
Just want to make the clarification that this is wholly respective to California, which is broke (wonder why?), and probably the poorest-run and over-legislated government in the nation.
Further, in regard to this entire thread, remember that there are always eight sides to every story, regardless of the subject-matter. It's only after all sides have been observed that anyone can make informed decisions that result in a valid opinion.
but in return you get nice benefits and no corporate America stupidity, which is worth gold in my book.
No, you just trade to a different kind of stupidity, because corporate America expects one to produce results. Gov't billets expect one to fill a space, justify a budget line, lack innovation and be cripplingly risk-averse.
I swear, they hand out razors with the DoD civilian hiring paperwork, so that the individual can sever their brain stem and get the Borg hive-mind implant. They will never use three words when they can use three paragraphs. There's at least one federal holiday each week and somehow a randomized spare day off, so contacting them is like trying to talk to the Pope (with usually the same level of actual desire; nobody WANTS to talk to a silk-robed pederast in a funny hat). Plus, the combination of an original thought and a cold drink of water taken at the same time would kill most of those yuckapucks, from the sheer strain of it. They KNOW they can't get fired, short of getting into fisticuffs.
It gets worse when you shift levels. Having worked cheek-in-jowl with federal gov't civilians for a few years, it's an absolute joy compared to dealing with a dimwit county or municipal gov't worker as they joyfully slouch toward mediocraty.
There's a REASON the gov't side doesn't get paid as much; it's historically known that they're not hitting 60% of their capability because they can hardly be released for cause. Now that there's more money being pumped into the pay bands, a bad effeciency rate is going to get abysimmally worse from paying even more for even shittier performance.
Littlelebowski
08-13-10, 10:55
No, you just trade to a different kind of stupidity, because corporate America expects one to produce results. Gov't billets expect one to fill a space, justify a budget line, lack innovation and be cripplingly risk-averse.
Exactly right. Once in place, gov't employees are well nigh untouchable, especially with the growth of public service unions.
Imagine gov't employees with the smug sense of entitlement and ridiculous contracts and benefits of the New Jersey teachers, firefighters, and police. Then vomit.
Get rid of double dipping after retirement.
This absolutely pisses me off. Paul Howe had an excellent rant recently on his website about generals and admirals.
Littlelebowski
08-13-10, 11:41
This absolutely pisses me off. Paul Howe had an excellent rant recently on his website about generals and admirals.
I'm trying to find that; mind PMing it to me?
Imagine gov't employees with the smug sense of entitlement and ridiculous contracts and benefits of the New Jersey teachers, firefighters, and police.
Hell, I only wish I had to imagine it. Ask me about something called "Venom," one day.....
Get rid of double dipping after retirement.
I know in general what "double dipping" is but I would like to know what you mean in this case by "double dipping".
Damn, I shoulda stayed with the Feds. But when your young and want to run off and join the circus, its the price you gotta pay.
I know my old Fed job (if I stayed), would have been close to double my current pay and I could be eligible to retire and get another job. Funny, but I am not complaining as the circus is much more entertaining. :)
Double dipping as defined as getting paid twice as much as a non-gov employee in your area, retiring at 100% pay, then returning to that same exact position or getting a job doing the same exact thing in the next county for the same amount of money while being "retired". I'm not opposed to paying people well who do good work, but there's no reason to pay someone twice for doing one job. It strangles the budget of one town, and makes sure another town can't employ a new guy... or in the case of crooked east coast school districts you can retire, then return to work earning the same or more.
Double dipping as defined as getting paid twice as much as a non-gov employee in your area, retiring at 100% pay, then returning to that same exact position or getting a job doing the same exact thing in the next county for the same amount of money while being "retired". I'm not opposed to paying people well who do good work, but there's no reason to pay someone twice for doing one job. It strangles the budget of one town, and makes sure another town can't employ a new guy... or in the case of crooked east coast school districts you can retire, then return to work earning the same or more.
Ok thanks.
I agree that retiring with full benefits and then returning to work within the same "system" should be a no-no. The definition of "system" is of course important here. I would say that if a town has its own retirement system set up, then going to another town with a different retirement system is perfectly ok. But if both towns are part of the same retirement system, then that would be a no-no. Once you retire, you could not work again in that same system without "un-retiring".
I don't see how we cannot allow someone to retire at 20 years or 30 years (assuming that is the policy and rule) and then go work somewhere else, perhaps doing the same thing. They then are not being paid twice for doing one job. Either we have a benefit like "early" retirement or we don't, but we shouldn't prohibit these people from further working (at a different position).
The problem is more that the conditions of retirement themselves were set too leniently. Why should a public service employee get to retire at 50 or 55 with cadillac benefits on the taxpayer dime? That is more the problem than "double dipping"
It's just unaffordable to have people doing this on the taxpayer dime. If it was affordable I wouldn't have any complaints.
It's just unaffordable to have people doing this on the taxpayer dime. If it was affordable I wouldn't have any complaints.
Which is why I questioned the whole early retirement thing in the first place. That is what is really unaffordable.
As others have mentioned in various topics, the public employee unions are the real culprits.
Public employees don't need unions, period.
Public employees don't need unions, period.
+100000000000000
There are five "feds" in my group and another four local "task force officers". The feds don't get overtime. The locals all make more than we do and are not capped salary-wise. We regularly work 70 hours or more a week. We are subject to night and weekend call-outs and are frequently called out, I sleep with a cell phone and Blackberry on the nightstand. My wife is accustomed to us going to bed at the same time and her waking up in the morning and finding me gone before her alarm goes off. Working Saturdays and Sundays for free occurs more often than not. Giving unused annual leave back at the end of the year because we can only carry so much over to the next year is a regular occurrence. In June we were out for twelve straight days on a controlled delivery before we took it down, only rotating out for 4-6 hour stretches for a nap and a shower. We do not have a union. We are subject to frivolous lawsuits that we have to defend against, we pay all or most of our own civil liability insurance. We can be fired at will. Being found not credible at a hearing or at trial is a career ender. We do what we do because we believe it is important and we believe in our mission. I doubt any of you could or would do what we do for what we do it for. We earn every dime we take home.
geezerbutler
08-14-10, 10:47
Public employees don't need unions, period.
Did you see this thread here where I posted about this?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=57471
This legislation, to quote our gafe prone VP, is a 'Big F'in deal" and it gives a green light for the damn labor unions to come in and unionize those public safety/fire/ems entities that aren't unionized.
Then you'll pay dues so they can "look out for you" while your dues go to support the political campaign of some pro governnment, pro hamas- pro marxist- anit-capitalism candidate.
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[COLOR="Green"]KMRTNSN There are five "feds" in my group and another four local "task force officers". The feds don't get overtime. The locals all make more than we do and are not capped salary-wise. We regularly work 70 hours or more a week. We are subject to night and weekend call-outs and are frequently called out, I sleep with a cell phone and Blackberry on the nightstand. My wife is accustomed to us going to bed at the same time and her waking up in the morning and finding me gone before her alarm goes off. Working Saturdays and Sundays for free occurs more often than not. Giving unused annual leave back at the end of the year because we can only carry so much over to the next year is a regular occurrence. In June we were out for twelve straight days on a controlled delivery before we took it down, only rotating out for 4-6 hour stretches for a nap and a shower. We do not have a union. We are subject to frivolous lawsuits that we have to defend against, we pay all or most of our own!
civil liability insurance. We can be fired at will. Being found not credible at a hearing or at trial is a career ender. We do what we do because we believe it is important and we believe in our mission. I doubt any of could or would do what we do for what we do it for. We earn every dime we take home.
That'called being a law enforcement officer/investigator/narc.
Any of WHO couldn't or wouldn't do what you do?
You didn't actually state who you worked for, local or feds, you just state you work with both.
The feds do have FLEOLA -
Every officer fed, state, local, whatever, would be subject to Giglio issues.
Any officer can be sued for absolutely nothing.
A large portion of state, city, and county LEO's can be terminated and are will and pleasure employees.
Most officers don't pull a straight 8 and go home.
Non Feds are doing the same damn thing day after day that the feds are doing except the guy making $35k in TN is paying the taxes to let the Federal GS13 take home 5k-7k a month.
And on overtime, your're right.
But if they're full time fed 1811 Criminal Investigators they get LEAP for an addtional 25% of their base salary - did you not know that?
Also locals assigned to federal task forces as TFO's do get supplemental pay.
So they're getting paid plenty for all those long, long, hours.
Only about 50% of us are paying the taxes that make any federal government function possible.
The math makes it impossible to keep paying Federal Govt' and state employees like those in CA, NY, etc what we're paying them.
I know a guy who just retired as an ICE 1811 and is drawing federal retirement but just went back contracting doing the same thing for DHS/ICE and drawing a salary on top of the retirement - because of a law that was changed to allow such a thing.
The federal government tells us we need to cut back and do with less and they never take their own advice.....which is our fault as voters for not making them responsible for their own actions.
Hallelujah! A few are actually getting the point of the thread.
Gee, I wonder why this is...
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Washington, D.C., posts highest median income in 2009 - Sep. 28, 2010
http://money.cnn.com/2010/09/28/pf/household_income_report/index.htm
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