Opinions -- Rangemaster Urban Defense Carbine Course

[Grin Reaper]

I'm thinking about taking the plunge an investing in some closer-range carbine training. I've shot beaucoup at 200-400yards, but very little at under 50yds (except with a handgun).
So, who's dealt with the guys at http://www.rangemaster.com/ , and what impression did you get from their courses?
I know there are some more well-known schools out there, but their prices are outside my comfort zone.

PS -- I'm considering this vendor because the price is right and they are located less than a day's drive from my home -- I hate flying when I need to take a firearm to my destination.

[Wayne Dobbs]

You will NEVER regret going to really first class training, just as you never regret acquiring first class gear. Do it right:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=5529

Names that should be on your list to train carbine with:

Pat Rogers
Larry Vickers
Dave Harrington (usually teaches around Atlanta)
Paul Howe

Rangemaster has a good reputation and Tom Givens is a top notch guy, but why would you travel to Memphis to shoot only 200 rounds in what is most likely a very elementary course that will do little to challenge you? Pat Rogers took us through 1300 rounds in three days of carbine class and it was worth every penny spent on travel, ammo, food, etc. Larry Vickers and the others listed have stellar reputations and backgrounds and I doubt you would ever regret taking a class from one of these guys.

[Pat_Rogers]

Tom Givens has a great reputation, and you would probably learn a lot.

If that does not meet your req's, i am teaching a 3 Day Carbine Operators Course in StJoMo 11-13Aug, and at Memphis PD 15-17 Aug.

As Wayne points out, my classes are not beginners classes.

[ashooter]

Ditto what Wayne said. I've hosted Pat a couple of times and if you get a chance to train with him, you're probably better off to do that. Learning to FIGHT is not the same thing as learning to SHOOT.

That's not meant to put down anybody else, but the "big name" carbine guys got their big names for a reason.

[Pat_Rogers]

Thanks Lloyd, and looking forward to seeing you again in 08!

[rhino]

Rangemaster has a good reputation and Tom Givens is a top notch guy, but why would you travel to Memphis to shoot only 200 rounds in what is most likely a very elementary course that will do little to challenge you?

I can think of several good reasons, which may or may not pertain to the original poster's motives:

1. It's one day. Some people for various reasons prefer to do this stuff in smaller chunks. It's probably more attractive to someone who lives closer to the site for a one day class, but it still can be a factor.

2. The price is a lot easier to swallow for people with less financial resources than some who buy whatever classes they want, when they want. Note that the ammunition is included in the tuition, and while it's only 200 rounds, it's still significant given the current price and availability of 5.56/.223.

3. Assuming the class is "elementary," that's not necessarily a bad thing. A lot of people prefer to ease into these things, especially those with very little actual shooting experience. I don't see anything wrong with it, and for some I think it's actually a better way to go, especially if they tend to get overwhelmed by new information easily.

Different people have different needs, resources, and desires. It's good that the market is providing different options to help match people to opportunities.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Rhino,

I based my response on what Grin Reaper supplied: that he was an experienced rifle shooter (see his appleseed program), that he wanted a good close quarters carbine course and that he was driving. His location is 450 miles from Rangemaster and doing a minimum of 900 miles of driving to shoot 200 rounds in one day seemed to be pretty inefficient. I don't know who would teach the RM class as it doesn't say there. It may be a good trainer or it may be somebody regurgitating off a "script". I know the price point is attractive, but if you break it down into per day costs and amount of actual repetitions/rounds, then Pat's class of about 1100-1300 rounds total and $160 per day of REAL WORLD FIGHTING with the carbine training is a much better deal.

He can do the class with Pat in Fayetteville, NC which is a 100 miles closer one way. Since Grin is in the Atlanta area it also opens up opportunities to work with Super Dave Harrington and Larry Vickers. Basically, he's in a pretty sweet spot from a geographic standpoint on accessing some great trainers.

I understand your stance on this, but this one looks like a no brainer from the cost vs benefit analysis.

[Grin Reaper]

Wow. Thanks for the input, guys. Wayne, I really appreciate the cost vs benefit analysis; I never looked at it that way. And rhino, you're right about the 1-day course being the most attractive quality (for now); by the end of 2007, I will have instructed at 6 two-day Appleseed Shoots -- talking Mrs. Reaper into another 3-day weekend at an out-of-town range (when you factor in travel), well, that would require training for fighting. ;)

[rhino]

Good luck making your decision!

You might also keep an eye open for some of the classes available in Georgia. There is at least one guy who hosts various traveling instructors in the Atlanta area (I think the River Bend club).