So the ole ATF stopped by....

[Belmont31R]

I guess I've bought too many guns, and came up on someones list. They were satisfied I was not dealing without a license, gun trafficking, etc. No I didn't let them, and they sat on the porch sweating...



The lead guy made several comments about how they don't keep records yet he had a ton of my 4473's, my military records, pictures of my relatives, printed out list of guns Ive bought, NFA and who knows what else.


Didn't like the fact I didn't have a bill of sale for the few guns Ive sold FTF. Said I need to keep records, and I told him I wasn't required by law to do so. He said he can type up a "cease and desist" letter, give it to someone, and it means they cannot sell any guns. Not as a threat to me but he said they often go to people's houses, and they can't show them any guns even though they've purchased several a month.


They were pretty nice, though, and part of the increased effort to keep guns out of Mexico. Id heard the ATF was "flooding" Texas so I guess it was my turn. Towards the end we were talking about areas to go shooting around here, and they said it was good I was a gun owner. They had come here when we were on vacation, and quipped about Fox News being on the TV...lol


Anyways not what I want to wake up to after 4 hours of sleep but it went pretty well, and everything is on the up and up....lol

[pilotguyo540]

I am sure they doing a legit job for a legit problem, and pardon me while I look for some tin foil, but that is scary. They have no records... Hah!!! I know'd it, I know'd it, I know'd it.

Gullibility machine, please insert dollar here.

[sadmin]

whoa...
so if you dont mind me asking, in what range of quantity are we talking about on your end.

[Skyyr]

whoa...
so if you dont mind me asking, in what range of quantity are we talking about on your end.

+1. How many guns did you buy and, more importantly, how many did you sell and how did they know you sold them?

[sadmin]

+1. how did they know you sold them?
They was a purchase record to him, but were missing from inventory im guessing

[Belmont31R]

whoa...
so if you dont mind me asking, in what range of quantity are we talking about on your end.




Less than 20....


He even asked me if it was my writing on the 4473. They had a mix of 4473's, and some sort of printed off spread sheet with guns Ive bought. I showed them what I have, and he was checking them off on his list along with the 4473's. The few Ive sold I told him where they went. A couple FTF sales, a couple traded in, and a few sent to FFL's. I told him I had the FedEx documents for the ones I shipped since I usually scan them, and send them to the buyer. I also mentioned I always use "their" FFL EZ check to make sure the FFL is legit Im sending it to. He seemed pleased with that.


FWIW all my purchases have been spread out over time, and location. The only guns they didn't have a record for were guns I purchased FTF.

[Belmont31R]

+1. How many guns did you buy and, more importantly, how many did you sell and how did they know you sold them?



They didn't know I sold any of them. The ones they had a record for but didn't have I either sold or traded in.




What Im guessing they are doing is collecting 4473's, and then creating a list to each buyer. Im not sure if there is a magical number of purchases one has to meet to get this type of visit but I guess I caught their attention somehow.

[d90king]

When we do nothing wrong we have nothing to fear... I am sure the sphincter tightened a little at first but it sounds like it went well in the end and that they acted professional and treated you as they should have.

I'm surprised I haven't been visited yet... Maybe because I am in Pa and don't have any NFA stuff. YET!

[Artos]

glad it worked out ok bro...dad is really diggin the 22

[pilotguyo540]

When we do nothing wrong we have nothing to fear...

That's not how this country is supposed to work. I will save the political tirade for later. Until next time...be afraid.

[Belmont31R]

When we do nothing wrong we have nothing to fear... I am sure the sphincter tightened a little at first but it sounds like it went well in the end and that they acted professional and treated you as they should have.

I'm surprised I haven't been visited yet... Maybe because I am in Pa and don't have any NFA stuff. YET!




From my understanding they are concentrating their efforts in the border states. I think they even pulled agents from out of state to come down here.


He said they are targeting private sellers at gunshows who are operating a business but do not have an FFL. The guys with a table full of "private sales". But no they didn't seem interested in spending time on guys like me. I just showed them what I had, chatted for a few minutes, and they left. Im sure the heat helped speed up the process but I didn't want them in the house with our dogs, and our twin 4 year old boys getting in the way.

[Belmont31R]

glad it worked out ok bro...dad is really diggin the 22



Yeah that was one of the guns on their list...:p

[Irish]

Double.

[Irish]

When we do nothing wrong we have nothing to fear...

Riiiiiiight... :rolleyes: Glad everything worked out but kind of odd having pictures of relatives and military records, obviously they'd done their homework. I feel much safer now.

[TOrrock]

When there are stories like this, it's not surprising that they've pulled BATFE from all over to look at larger volume buyers.

http://www.koco.com/r/24593657/detail.html

[Belmont31R]

Riiiiiiight... :rolleyes: Glad everything worked out but kind of odd having pictures of relatives and military records, obviously they'd done their homework. I feel much safer now.




The lead guy had a 1/2" binder just for me, and everything separated by tabs. So yeah they sure do their homework...


I think they are told/trained to tell people there is no database but obviously they have access to lots of information.

[Skyyr]

... it sounds like it went well in the end and that they acted professional and treated you as they should have.

Riiiiight... because they showed up with records that the law states they can't keep? :rolleyes:

[Skyyr]

When there are stories like this, it's not surprising that they've pulled BATFE from all over to look at larger volume buyers.

http://www.koco.com/r/24593657/detail.html

I wouldn't consider "less than 20 guns" to be high volume. How many people have more than 20 tools in their toolbox? How many have more multiple powered yard machines? How many have multiple sets of golf clubs? A gun is no different.

If someone has two of each gun, one that's used and one in reserve, and they believe in having one of each type of gun (semi-auto rifle, bolt-action rifle, shotgun, semi-auto pistol, and revolver), that's 10 guns right there. It's really not that uncommon.

It's control and paranoia.

[austinN4]

I just showed them what I had,................
If you don't mind my asking, if you left them on the porch, how did you show them your guns? I have this vision of you leaving them standing there while you went wherever and came back with a couple of guns at a time. I wonder if that made them jumpy?

[Belmont31R]

When there are stories like this, it's not surprising that they've pulled BATFE from all over to look at larger volume buyers.

http://www.koco.com/r/24593657/detail.html



Unfortunately stories like this are common, and why people get visits like I did.


http://130.80.29.3/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/7140752.html

[TOrrock]

I wouldn't consider "less than 20 guns" to be high volume. How many people have more than 20 tools in their toolbox? How many have more multiple powered yard machines? How many have multiple sets of golf clubs? A gun is no different.

If someone has two of each gun, one that's used and one in reserve, and they believe in having one of each type of gun (semi-auto rifle, bolt-action rifle, shotgun, semi-auto pistol, and revolver), that's 10 guns right there. It's really not that uncommon.

It's control and paranoia.


What they're looking at is purchases within a certain period.

If you buy more than one handgun in (I *believe*) ten day period, the dealer is required to send a notice to BATFE. It's been that way for over a decade.

[Skyyr]

If you buy more than one handgun in (I *believe*) ten day period, the dealer is required to send a notice to BATFE. It's been that way for over a decade.

I think it's five business days for handgun purchases, but duly noted.

[Belmont31R]

If you don't mind my asking, if you left them on the porch, how did you show them your guns? I have this vision of you leaving them standing there while you went wherever and came back with a couple of guns at a time. I wonder if that made them jumpy?



Yeah that is what I did, and no they didn't seem nervous. Neither of them were carrying from what I saw. No holsters on the side, cuffs, etc.



I didn't want our dogs or 4YO twin boys getting in the way. They were fine with that, and the wife was doing laundry so she had a bunch of clothes on the couch. Even if we lock the dogs up inside a room they bark and scratch at the door the whole time.

[Belmont31R]

What they're looking at is purchases within a certain period.

If you buy more than one handgun in (I *believe*) ten day period, the dealer is required to send a notice to BATFE. It's been that way for over a decade.




Ive never bought more than 1 handgun in week or 10 days...

[austinN4]

I didn't want our dogs or 4YO twin boys getting in the way. They were fine with that, and the wife was doing laundry so she had a bunch of clothes on the couch. Even if we lock the dogs up inside a room they bark and scratch at the door the whole time.
Don't get me wrong - I would have done the same thing and simply on general principals.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

I think you can see why some are hot to stop private sales. They can string 4473s together and make a database. Private sales bugger that up.

[NCPatrolAR]

The info developed during work-ups on people come from a variety of sources; not some single database.

[Spooky130]

The info developed during work-ups on people come from a variety of sources; not some single database.

I got caught up in this two years ago on the Texas border. I had bought a bunch of AK receivers (8-10) over a six month period. Also some other stuff. They were very interested in stripped receivers (AR and AK) and my FN PS90. I had sold some stuff FTF, to friends, and the out of state FFLs. They slightly accused me of being a dealer without a license - but backed off that line when I told them I sold guns to buy other ones.

From talking to my dealer the agents went to every FFL in the county. When your name showed up more than a handful of times they then started to dig... They pretty well told me everything I bought through that particular dealer. Your 4473s aren't in a database but they are in your dealer's bound book which they have access to.

Spooky

[SHIVAN]

Honestly, I think it's damn scary and I live my life pretty damn squeaky clean.

[Belmont31R]

I got caught up in this two years ago on the Texas border. I had bought a bunch of AK receivers (8-10) over a six month period. Also some other stuff. They were very interested in stripped receivers (AR and AK) and my FN PS90. I had sold some stuff FTF, to friends, and the out of state FFLs. They slightly accused me of being a dealer without a license - but backed off that line when I told them I sold guns to buy other ones.

From talking to my dealer the agents went to every FFL in the county. When your name showed up more than a handful of times they then started to dig... They pretty well told me everything I bought through that particular dealer. Your 4473s aren't in a database but they are in your dealer's bound book which they have access to.

Spooky



They had gun records on me from at least 5 different FFL's not just one or two.

[Belmont31R]

Honestly, I think it's damn scary and I live my life pretty damn squeaky clean.




Yeah its not very fun to be woken out of a dead sleep to my wife saying the ATF was at the door. I went from dead asleep to heart pounding in about half a second...lol


Not that Ive done anything wrong but I can't say its exactly a warm fuzzy feeling when fedgov guys come knocking, and not knowing exactly why they are there. Im glad it turned out ok, though, and they were nice enough about it as could be expected.

[C4IGrant]

They didn't know I sold any of them. The ones they had a record for but didn't have I either sold or traded in.




What Im guessing they are doing is collecting 4473's, and then creating a list to each buyer. Im not sure if there is a magical number of purchases one has to meet to get this type of visit but I guess I caught their attention somehow.

This is the interesting part. When an FFL dealer get's his audit, the ATF inspector will look through the dealers log book. If they start to see the same person (or dealer) come up over and over, they will start writing things down and asking about this person.

Now, since you say that you have spread your purchases out to various FFL's, F-T-F, etc AND they have a bunch of your 4473's (which are controlled by the DEALER and NOT the ATF), then that tells me that they audited all the local dealers around you and saw your name come up a lot. They then photocopied your 4473's and came to your home. Normally, this type of activity would have ONLY been done if your guns were used in a crime of some sort.

I am fairly certain that what the ATF did to you (and to others) is illegal in some way.



C4

[Skyyr]

Honestly, I think it's damn scary and I live my life pretty damn squeaky clean.

Same here.

[John_Wayne777]

Honestly, I think it's damn scary and I live my life pretty damn squeaky clean.

Too right.

We Virginians already have some experience with needlessly ending up in the crosshairs of a government investigation...like the dragnet they tried to do during the DC sniper episode. They literally went into gunstores, took 4473's, and started showing up at the door of people who had purchased an AR15 asking to take the weapon in to test it.

Now the BATFE is showing up at people's houses over this Mexico bullshit? Cops in Arizona can't inquire about someone's immigration status without the ****ing DOJ suing them over it, but the BATFE can show up on your doorstep asking for your guns and that's perfectly OK?

Pardon my french, but **** that noise. I'm not selling guns to Mexican drug dealers, and if the BATFE pays me a visit because I've bought "too many" guns whomever they send is going to get a polite but very firm earful. If I knew less about how the federal government and the criminal justice system can work, I'd be tempted to tell them to come back when they have a warrant. With my luck they'd probably do exactly that.

[Littlelebowski]

This is scary. How many agents were there?

[Belmont31R]

Too right.

We Virginians already have some experience with needlessly ending up in the crosshairs of a government investigation...like the dragnet they tried to do during the DC sniper episode. They literally went into gunstores, took 4473's, and started showing up at the door of people who had purchased an AR15 asking to take the weapon in to test it.

Now the BATFE is showing up at people's houses over this Mexico bullshit? Cops in Arizona can't inquire about someone's immigration status without the ****ing DOJ suing them over it, but the BATFE can show up on your doorstep asking for your guns and that's perfectly OK?

Pardon my french, but **** that noise. I'm not selling guns to Mexican drug dealers, and if the BATFE pays me a visit because I've bought "too many" guns whomever they send is going to get a polite but very firm earful. If I knew less about how the federal government and the criminal justice system can work, I'd be tempted to tell them to come back when they have a warrant. With my luck they'd probably do exactly that.



I certainly wouldn't allow them to take any of my stuff without a warrant. The guy asked if I had any records on the FTF sales, and I said no because Im not required to by law. He gave me a brief speel about how if they trace a gun I sold back to me Id have a lot of questions to answer about where it went. Said I should get their DL number, bill of sale, etc. As much as they may not like it FTF sales are not illegal, and Im not required to keep any records of the sale.

I was able to tell them exactly what stores I traded in a couple guns too, and he wrote that down.

[Belmont31R]

This is scary. How many agents were there?


2. One guy just sorta sat down on a patio chair, and the other guy did most of the talking.


He didn't have a business card so wrote down his name and PH# on a piece of paper...lol

[Artos]

just an fyi...but you cannot buy an AR in the Academy's down here along the border. They pulled them off the shelf themselves or due to pressure / concern for straws. Been a year or two already. Got to get to san antonio (maybe corpus) to see any on display.

I think it is pretty obvious the narcos are getting most their guns from the same places they find the grenades & rpg's. This is NOT at your walk in gun store. Punish all the good guys for the handful of bg's.

pretty sad...

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

The lead guy made several comments about how they don't keep records yet he had a ton of my 4473's, my military records, pictures of my relatives, printed out list of guns Ive bought, NFA and who knows what else.


Didn't like the fact I didn't have a bill of sale for the few guns Ive sold FTF. Said I need to keep records, and I told him I wasn't required by law to do so. He said he can type up a "cease and desist" letter, give it to someone, and it means they cannot sell any guns.

Good pics of your relatives or license photos and such?

I'd ask them for a summary sheet of the guns they think I have for insurance purposes ;)

Wish I could get one of those letters. "Sorry honey, got to keep them gov't says so right here."

[John_Wayne777]

As much as they may not like it FTF sales are not illegal, and Im not required to keep any records of the sale.


Yeah...well...what's legal or not really doesn't matter when there are federal agents on your doorstep with pictures of your family asking you to prove you aren't a gunrunner. I'm glad you're handling it so well.

Speaking personally it would have been a supreme challenge to veil my absolute contempt for what was transpiring.

[Business_Casual]

I said no because Im not required to by law. He gave me a brief speel about how if they trace a gun I sold back to me Id have a lot of questions to answer about where it went. Said I should get their DL number, bill of sale, etc. As much as they may not like it FTF sales are not illegal, and Im not required to keep any records.

LOL - kind of how he was already there asking questions about guns that weren't used in a crime? Irony, thy name is BATFE.

B_C

[Littlelebowski]

Too right.

We Virginians already have some experience with needlessly ending up in the crosshairs of a government investigation...like the dragnet they tried to do during the DC sniper episode. They literally went into gunstores, took 4473's, and started showing up at the door of people who had purchased an AR15 asking to take the weapon in to test it.

Now the BATFE is showing up at people's houses over this Mexico bullshit? Cops in Arizona can't inquire about someone's immigration status without the ****ing DOJ suing them over it, but the BATFE can show up on your doorstep asking for your guns and that's perfectly OK?

Pardon my french, but **** that noise. I'm not selling guns to Mexican drug dealers, and if the BATFE pays me a visit because I've bought "too many" guns whomever they send is going to get a polite but very firm earful. If I knew less about how the federal government and the criminal justice system can work, I'd be tempted to tell them to come back when they have a warrant. With my luck they'd probably do exactly that.

If there's a background story on that harassment, could you send it to me via PM?

[NCPatrolAR]

He gave me a brief speel about how if they trace a gun I sold back to me Id have a lot of questions to answer about where it went. Said I should get their DL number, bill of sale, etc. As much as they may not like it FTF sales are not illegal, and Im not required to keep any records of the sale.



I don't see anything wrong with them talking to you about bills of sale, getting an OL #, etc. If nothing else they are telling you how to get them out of your hair quicker in the event a trace brings them to your place.

If I did FTF sales, it's a practice I'd be doing

[khc3]

I'd have told them to talk to my lawyer.

You must have balls of steel to willingly talk to the feds.

[Belmont31R]

I don't see anything wrong with them talking to you about bills of sale, getting an OL #, etc. If nothing else they are telling you how to get them out of your hair quicker in the event a trace brings them to your place.

If I did FTF sales, it's a practice I'd be doing



Well as was pointed out they will be in your hair even if you did nothing wrong.



Oh something my wife mentioned...she was outside with them while I was retrieving guns, and the guy who was sitting down said something about how someone else used to live across the street. She thinks they have been watching the house because why would someone say that? That couple moved out a couple months ago. They did say they have been here a couple weeks ago but we were gone. This guy was quiet when I was out there but now my wife says he was pretty chatty when I wasn't. Asked her if she was into shooting, ect.

[Palmguy]

Honestly, I think it's damn scary and I live my life pretty damn squeaky clean.

I agree completely.

[GermanSynergy]

Glad it all worked out for you, OP. Situations like this make it worthwhile having a pro RKBA attorney on speed dial..:fie:

Notice they'll treat you like that, but wouldn't dare ask someone their immigration status.....

[NCPatrolAR]

I see the black helicopters are inbound and with that I'm dropping out of thread. Have a nice one guys

[Belmont31R]

I'd have told them to talk to my lawyer.

You must have balls of steel to willingly talk to the feds.



I didn't tell them anything they didn't already know.


Kinda hard to hide anything when you've been in the mil, held a clearance, and pretty much everything about us is a mouse click away. What would a lawyer have accomplished in this? In my eyes lawyers are just as scummy as the ATF. Im sure some lawyer would love to escalate an issue for no reason as long as Im paying them hundreds of dollars.

This dude had pictures of family members...even my BIL, my military records, spread sheets of the guns Ive bought, 4473's, etc.

Theres really nothing to keep from them as Im already on the "radar" having served Uncle Sam. Especially those with clearances.


I don't like it any more than the next person but its the world we live in. Damn even go to some gas stations now, buy a pack of beer, and they scan your DL on their register. There is no hiding anymore. Earlier this year I got pulled over, and the LEO didn't need my insurance because they can pull it up on their computer, and even see if its up to date. Go buy a pack of Sudafed, and you damn near have to provide as much info as when buying a gun.

[Belmont31R]

I see the black helicopters are inbound and with that I'm dropping out of thread. Have a nice one guys




Thanks for kind words...:rolleyes:

[NCPatrolAR]

Thanks for kind words...:rolleyes:

You're welcome



Try not to read into every little thing said. You're blowing somethings way out perportion ;)

[Littlelebowski]

I didn't tell them anything they didn't already know.


Kinda hard to hide anything when you've been in the mil, held a clearance, and pretty much everything about us is a mouse click away. What would a lawyer have accomplished in this? In my eyes lawyers are just as scummy as the ATF. Im sure some lawyer would love to escalate an issue for no reason as long as Im paying them hundreds of dollars.

This dude had pictures of family members...even my BIL, my military records, spread sheets of the guns Ive bought, 4473's, etc.

Theres really nothing to keep from them as Im already on the "radar" having served Uncle Sam. Especially those with clearances.


I don't like it any more than the next person but its the world we live in. Damn even go to some gas stations now, buy a pack of beer, and they scan your DL on their register. There is no hiding anymore. Earlier this year I got pulled over, and the LEO didn't need my insurance because they can pull it up on their computer, and even see if its up to date. Go buy a pack of Sudafed, and you damn near have to provide as much info as when buying a gun.

Exactly right. There really is no way to be a gun owner and to fly low, below the radar. Best thing to do is to keep your shit clean and documented. Data mining is scary and the feds are doing it. I still shake my head at the knuckleheads that post their entire gun collection online as a signature on a forum.

[SHIVAN]

One screw up by one dealer, where they ****ed up their log with the wrong name of the transferor/transferee, or a ruined/illegible 4473, or whatever, and you're looking at tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees to protect yourself. Aye, I feel queasy at the possibility.

Luckily, most of my stuff is handled through the NFA with a paper trail the length of this room, but still.

[Belmont31R]

Exactly right. There really is no way to be a gun owner and to fly low, below the radar. Best thing to do is to keep your shit clean and documented. Data mining is scary and the feds are doing it. I still shake my head at the knuckleheads that post their entire gun collection online as a signature on a forum.




I also forgot to mention the numerous DNA samples they got from me in the mil, finger prints, photos, scars/tattoos. A lot of these people trying to fly under the radar have no clue how much information is readily available about them. Just a DL and CHL provides a lot of data. I had to get photo'd and finger printed for both of those too.


Unless you were born in a backwoods shack, never got an SSN, never get a DL, birth certificate, never go to public school, get immunizations, ect there is plenty of info on every one of us that can be accessed in seconds.


While this data can be scary to think about Ive already accepted it, and don't think Im fooling anyone. It wasn't really all that surprising to me this guy showed up with a binder full of info on me.

[Skyyr]

I don't see anything wrong with them talking to you about bills of sale

Except for one, tiny, teeny, itsy-bitsy problem...

THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RECORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE. In fact, since they were from five different dealers, it's virtually a given they got them in a technically illegal manner.

That there says everything about their "intentions," in my opinion.

[SHIVAN]

Except for one, tiny, teeny, itsy-bitsy problem...

THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RECORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE. In fact, since they were from five different dealers, it's virtually a given they got them in a technically illegal manner.

That there says everything about their "intentions," in my opinion.

Slow down, while in theory I'd like to agree with you, the 4473's are the property of the dealer, and if the dealer surrenders them willingly, then I'm not sure they were obtained illegally, per se.

[Skyyr]

I still shake my head at the knuckleheads that post their entire gun collection online as a signature on a forum.

I feel the same way. That's just asking for your luck to be burned at both ends.

[Littlelebowski]

Did they say where they got the pics, B31r?

[Skyyr]

Slow down, while in theory I'd like to agree with you, the 4473's are the property of the dealer, and if the dealer surrenders them willingly, then I'm not sure they were obtained illegally, per se.

But, not one, not two, but FIVE dealers? And on top of that, no dealer is going to deny the ATF access to their records - it's detrimental for them to. And on top of that, a 1/2" binder of info on the OP?

They targeted him unjustly and, without absolute proof, I'll all but guarantee you it over-stepped the bounds of the intended law.

[SHIVAN]

But, not one, not two, but FIVE dealers? And on top of that, no dealer is going to deny the ATF access to their records - it's detrimental for them to. And on top of that, a 1/2" binder of info on the OP?

They targeted him unjustly and, without absolute proof, I'll all but guarantee you it over-stepped the bounds of the intended law.

Slow down. If the dealers turned over the records willingly, then the ATF has that info legally. I don't agree that the ATF should be barking up the tree of personal legal activities, but ascribing criminality to their actions is not gonna fly here.

Thanks.

[Belmont31R]

In a little bit Im gonna go to the closest of the dealers Ive purchased from, and let them know about it/ask them if any other of their customers have said anything. I don't know if it makes any difference but they are a C3 dealer, and most of their sales are handguns and AR's.



One of the ones was Cabelas, too, BTW. A few more shops around the area Ive purchased a just a few from.

[Skyyr]

Slow down. If the dealers turned over the records willingly, then the ATF has that info legally. I don't agree that the ATF should be barking up the tree of personal legal activities, but ascribing criminality to their actions is not gonna fly here.

Thanks.

Consider this scenario...

The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

But anyways, what can you one do...

[Belmont31R]

Did they say where they got the pics, B31r?




Both my sister and BIL have both been arrested, and I think they were the mugshots of them. My BIL got arrested in 2006 for driving on a suspended license, and my stupid sister got arrested for writing several thousand worth of bad checks when she went off to college a long time ago.


Not sure about the other ones. They asked about my parents by name.

[pilotguyo540]

I have no idea if they (atf) broke or stretched any laws. Were they there investigating criminal activity? Were they fishing for evidence? We seem to be blurring the lines of due process and exactly where everyone's place is at the table. No matter how you slice it, the OP was on the defensive. He had everything to lose. Not a good place to be. Again, they may have had legitimate business, but I don't like it one bit. The cartels don't need straw hats. That is just absurd. I guess any excuse will do these days.

[John_Wayne777]

Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no."


One did in Virginia back during the DC sniper debacle.

[TOrrock]

The cartels absolutely do use straw purchasers.

[Belmont31R]

Consider this scenario...

The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

But anyways, what can you one do...



I do think its just circumventing the no registery law but I think they have enough regulatory power getting all the 4473's they need isn't really an issue for them.


I think there was 2 or 3 they didn't have records for even though I purchased it from a dealer but those were in WA and CA not TX. But all the ones I purchased in TX they did have. So logically, if Id never bought a gun while stationed in WA or CA, they would have had all the records of me purchasing a gun in this state.


While not just 3-4 guns I seem like a really small fish when I have no more than 20, and they were purchased mostly over a 4 year period. Its not like Im buying 10 guns a month or something crazy. I maybe average one every 4 months. If you go back to 2006 when I started buying most of my stuff, and I had around 15 thats not an overly high or seemingly suspicious count.

[NCPatrolAR]

Except for one, tiny, teeny, itsy-bitsy problem...

THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RECORDS IN THE FIRST PLACE. In fact, since they were from five different dealers, it's virtually a given they got them in a technically illegal manner.

That there says everything about their "intentions," in my opinion.

Let me violate my statement about dropping out of the thread for a second.


I was talking about bills of sale for face-to-face sales. Should have been obvious from the hard to find context clue I left. :secret:

You know; the one that said "If I did FTF sales, it's a practice I'd be doing"

[John_Wayne777]

For FTF sales (with anyone I don't know well enough to let them borrow my car) I do a little letter where the buyer acknowledges the transfer, says that they've presented me with a valid Virginia DL, that they aren't a prohibited person, that they buy the gun as is, and that they absolve me of any and all liability involving the gun. I try to do transfers through a dealer if at all possible...as I'd rather have the ATF update their database with someone else's name on the gun.

[SHIVAN]

Consider this scenario...

The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

But anyways, what can you one do...

Quite simply, the ATF may not have any real interest in Belmont31R, his guns, or his family. Their binder of information may have been due diligence, acquired completely legally, and represents just one check box of "Nope, not involved.", on a long list of a long-term investigation of an FFL, a real gunrunner, or something else entirely.

I don't like their methods, and I think it's scary that they come to you in an adversarial way, if you aren't really the subject. Or even if you are the subject, they have a reasonable idea that paperwork anomalies are not going to lead to anything.

In their mind, this is routine work, and probably view that visit as the least adversarial method they have at their disposal. Even if you and I view it 180º oppositely from the agents.

[pilotguyo540]

The cartels absolutely do use straw purchasers.
I may be wrong, but with the quantity of weapons needed by the cartels and the other heavy duty hardware they have, straw hats just seem so juvenile and small scale.

I would put these facts with their political connections in Mexico and come to a logical conclusion that the arsenal was procured in Latin America. The political climate is way too corrupt in almost all of Latin America to really need straw hats. Why go through all the trouble to buy a few things in america when you can buy cases of anything south of our border?

[TOrrock]

There are a bunch of people in jail, both here and in Mexico, convicted of running guns via straw purchases down to Mexico.

It's a huge operation.

The flow of guns purchased by straw men in this country used to flow north to DC, NY, NJ, and MA, and many still do, but the shift to down to Mexico has been dramatic.

I was involved in a gun running case up to the north east almost 20 years ago when it was the crack wars that were the main draw.

Sure, the real military hardware the bigger cartels are getting come from different sources, but a bunch of cheaper AR's and semi auto AK's are bought "legally" here and sent down there.

Do not jump to the conclusion that I advocate a new AWB, but the facts are it does happen.

[Heavy Metal]

Copying documents in an investigation is pie easy. I do it all the time with a digital camera. Works pretty good.

[MarshallDodge]

Interesting thread. Thanks for posting Belmont, it definitely shed some light on the subject.

[Belmont31R]

I may be wrong, but with the quantity of weapons needed by the cartels and the other heavy duty hardware they have, straw hats just seem so juvenile and small scale.

I would put these facts with their political connections in Mexico and come to a logical conclusion that the arsenal was procured in Latin America. The political climate is way too corrupt in almost all of Latin America to really need straw hats. Why go through all the trouble to buy a few things in america when you can buy cases of anything south of our border?



Like it or not there have been several big busts down here with people trying to take car loads full of weapons across the border.


While, no, I don't think its a majority of the cartel weapons Obama ordered a lot more agents from other areas of the country to do exactly this type of thing like what happened to me today. Frankly in the pics Ive seen I mostly see what look like MX mil/le weapons, and FA AK's. Ive seen some pics of American commercial AR's but its mostly the MX gov weapons and FA AK's. Our government sold the Mexicans a lot of Colt M16's and Carbines....a lot of corrupt cops go work for the cartel, and take their weapon with them. They steal them, shoot people and take their guns, etc.


Frankly Id rather see these agents on the border where they could probably do a bit more good in keeping illegals/drugs out, and our guns from going to the cartels. Im not sure how successful this effort is to scour dealer records, and go hassle the purchaser actually is. If we had a secure border from both sides shit like this wouldn't be necessary. Thats the real root of the problem. Obama and Bush before him refused to secure the border, things flow through both ways, and the answer is to not secure the border but knock on mostly legal gun owners doors?

[pilotguyo540]

There are a bunch of people in jail, both here and in Mexico, convicted of running guns via straw purchases down to Mexico.

It's a huge operation.

The flow of guns purchased by straw men in this country used to flow north to DC, NY, NJ, and MA, and many still do, but the shift to down to Mexico has been dramatic.

I was involved in a gun running case up to the north east almost 20 years ago when it was the crack wars that were the main draw.

Sure, the real military hardware the bigger cartels are getting come from different sources, but a bunch of cheaper AR's and semi auto AK's are bought "legally" here and sent down there.

Do not jump to the conclusion that I advocate a new AWB, but the facts are it does happen.

Thank you for the correction and education.

That adds way more to the dynamic description of what's going on. I am getting a little off topic, but I have to ask anyways. The drug cartels will always be there. Nature abhors a vacuum. Now is it better to have many "micro-cartels" or a few major cartels?

[TOrrock]

Thank you for the correction and education.

That adds way more to the dynamic description of what's going on. I am getting a little off topic, but I have to ask anyways. The drug cartels will always be there. Nature abhors a vacuum. Now is it better to have many "micro-cartels" or a few major cartels?


No worries. I posted this link on the first page....

http://www.koco.com/r/24593657/detail.html

When you have corrupt LE organizing straw purchases.....it's bad.

The amount of money that these cartels can throw around makes it easy for them to get what they want.

[d90king]

Since it appears a couple folks have taken my comments waaaaay out of their intended context I want to clarify them so people understand them and stop making stupid assumptions...

The point I was making was that when you do things the right way you have no reason to fear the FEDs or the legal system in general because THE LAW is on our side. I fear no one because I know I haven't done a damn thing wrong. Period.

Just like we have consequences for our actions, the FEDs also have consequences when they violate it. This was not an incident where a bunch of FEDs showed up acting like assholes and intimidated or harassed Belmont IMHO. It seems like they were checking on what from a distance looked like someone who might have been in the business of selling firearms without a license who also possessed NFA weapons...

They quickly were able to determine that he was not and respected his wishes to stay the **** out of his house and he would retrieve his weapons for inspection (which I believe they have a right to do with NFA weapons) I could be wrong... In reality if it was my job to do what these guys had to do I would be a little jittery of someone coming out the door with a loaded NFA weapon....

On the surface I don't see harassment I see the FEDs doing the job that they are required (ordered) to do... I could be wrong but it is simply how I viewed it at a glance...

The part that does bother me is the dossier that they apparently had on him but if I had to guess in todays day and age they probably have it on most of us like it or not. How do we change it?

There is a reason that I have legal council on speed dial and if I had felt in any way threatened by their actions I would have hit send and had someone there to protect my best interest. If they were to ever rape me of my rights you can bet your ass that my attorneys would return the favor and they would suffer the consequences of their actions.

The court system works both ways when it comes to doling out justice.

As much as we would love to have the Republic that our forefathers envisioned and intended... It gone and as they said.. "Once gone its gone forever"... All we can do is hope to end the decaying that has been happening over the last 100 years.

I in no way support any violations of our rights wether granted by God or by the constitution... There are several current threads were I was enraged at the actions of LE but this incident didn't strike me that way.

On a side note BATF has reigned in states in the past who were violating "registry" laws... Pa being one of them...

Look at California right now where they are getting ready to force a registration of all long arms... I believe the second circuit ruling must give them some teeth in feeling that it is lawful (even though case law was never meant as a way to "settle law")


I am not a great writer and often times have a hard time getting thoughts into words on a screen. This just didn't jump out to me as a black helicopter moment. I could very well be wrong its just how I read it at a glance... Hell, wasn't it Texas where they just arrested the cop for selling AR's to the cartels?

[khc3]

I didn't tell them anything they didn't already know.



That's precisely my point.

I have a number of NFA tax stamps, so I'm not worried about being anonymous, but that still doesn't make me want to talk to them.

Having already been visited by LE without a warrant, I've had practice in saying "Come back with a warrant (or "cease and desist letter," in your case).

And it's more from me being kind of a chicknshit when confronted by official people who can put me in prison, confiscate much of my property, and kill my dog.

Heck, after a few minutes of trying to "help out," I'd probably confess to killing OJ's wife.

[Artos]

There are a bunch of people in jail, both here and in Mexico, convicted of running guns via straw purchases down to Mexico.

It's a huge operation.

The flow of guns purchased by straw men in this country used to flow north to DC, NY, NJ, and MA, and many still do, but the shift to down to Mexico has been dramatic.

I was involved in a gun running case up to the north east almost 20 years ago when it was the crack wars that were the main draw.

Sure, the real military hardware the bigger cartels are getting come from different sources, but a bunch of cheaper AR's and semi auto AK's are bought "legally" here and sent down there.

Do not jump to the conclusion that I advocate a new AWB, but the facts are it does happen.


no doubt & it would make sense for folks to be approached locally being so close to the border...i do know this is a huge concern for atf agents down this & what they spend a bunch of time on. I also was told we too got several new agents for our area.

It is my opinion the straws are a small percentage of the narcos inventory.

The reports i hear of weapons recovered in mx have the majority of them coming directly from their own govt/military purchases...it is so much easier to demonize the U.S. & point the finger elsewhere. Let's not forget that bogus road blocks are done by the narcos with issued fatuiges as well. Hell, the leading candidate for governor of tamaulipas was killed by narcos thinking it was a legit check point. Nothing sticks in my craw more than to hear a mexican official (or an anti news reporter for that matter) say the gun violence is directly tied to the U.S. gun market.

ATF still needs to stay on top of dirty dealers & lazy sales people who can't recognize a straw purchases but i don't hear of huge round up of straw purchasers. Again, my opinion but i think the straws are more of a onesey-twosey type buyer who then wises up...very difficult for ATF to recognize on high volume audits.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Yeah its not very fun to be woken out of a dead sleep to my wife saying the ATF was at the door. I went from dead asleep to heart pounding in about half a second...lol


Your wife knows how to get your ass out of bed in hurry now..




Now the BATFE is showing up at people's houses over this Mexico bullshit? Cops in Arizona can't inquire about someone's immigration status without the ****ing DOJ suing them over it, but the BATFE can show up on your doorstep asking for your guns and that's perfectly OK.

Damn, now that's funny- because its true.


I see the black helicopters are inbound and with that I'm dropping out of thread. Have a nice one guys

Dude, its the nano-bot insect RPVs! BHs are so 2000s. :p


Slow down, while in theory I'd like to agree with you, the 4473's are the property of the dealer, and if the dealer surrenders them willingly, then I'm not sure they were obtained illegally, per se.

Would the list of guns he owns have to be destroyed after ascertaining that he was doing nothing illegal/the investigation was closed? Gun sales records have to be wiped clean after 24hrs (or so) right? But what good is that if they can just go and copy all the 4473s?

[Belmont31R]

Alright I spoke to my local dealer, the C3 guy, and he said they came in 2 weeks ago looking for 4473's to pull. He also said one of them made some comment about how they could his license because they found to grammar/clerical errors in the ones they did pull. I guess he told them back that they could pull his license, and he'd just do something else for a living. Then all the guns in his shop would be his to do what he wants with them.


But that doesn't really explain how they had documents for me from so many different dealers. He told me they were looking for people who are dealing firearms with a license but Im not quite sure how someone who purchases ~15-20 guns in a 4 year period can be construed as possible dealing. At this one dealer Ive had maybe 3 transfers and 2 or 3 buys in around a 3 year period.


I think this entire year Ive sold maybe 2 guns but most likely one, and that was to Artos through this forum, and he is an FFL holder. A sold a few last year, and those went out to state to FFL's verified by the FFL EZ check.


If they do come back for any reason I will not be as cooperative as I was this time. Once is plenty for them, and I was able to produce the vast majority of the firearms they had on record for me. Anything else beyond this is not acceptable.


Im also going to write out a letter, and send it to both my House rep and my Senator. I know my House rep is VERY pro gun, and even has a picture of him with a gun on his website. I doubt they will be able to do anything but it doesn't cost me anything but 30 minutes or so to type something out.

[TOrrock]

Alright I spoke to my local dealer, the C3 guy, and he said they came in 2 weeks ago looking for 4473's to pull. He also said one of them made some comment about how they could his license because they found to grammar/clerical errors in the ones they did pull. I guess he told them back that they could pull his license, and he'd just do something else for a living. Then all the guns in his shop would be his to do what he wants with them.

Im also going to write out a letter, and send it to both my House rep and my Senator. I know my House rep is VERY pro gun, and even has a picture of him with a gun on his website. I doubt they will be able to do anything but it doesn't cost me anything but 30 minutes or so to type something out.

The first part, about them threatening to take his license over clerical errors, is a very real possibility. A number of dealers, especially high volume, politically unconnected dealers have lost their licenses over "clerical" errors.

Big box stores seem to get away with it easily though.

Let us know what kind of response you get from your Representative and your Senator. Squeaky wheel gets greased sometimes.... :cool:

[armakraut]

Get rid of all gun laws.

**** Mexico.

Don't talk too much to these people without an attorney present. They will present anything you tell them as an irrefutable admission of guilt in a court of law.

Many of you people on this board have led very squeaky clean lives by anyone's standards. However by the certified socialist legal code that stretches to the moon and back, you have been committing multiple felonies every day. They like lots of laws, because their legal system revolves around the concept that if you show them the man to crucify, they will show you his crimes.

Honestly, I'm beginning to think the best course of action is just to put firearms where they can't find them and tie Oliver North for saying "I can't recall". If they can't find them, they can't steal them (that goes for the common crooks and the federal crooks).

I can't remember doing anything, ever. I only wish to serve the state. I stare at a wall all day long and sing the international. Thank you comrade, you are a credit to the state for diligently performing your duties. I hope you find all the saboteurs and reactionaries.

[John_Wayne777]

But that doesn't really explain how they had documents for me from so many different dealers. He told me they were looking for people who are dealing firearms with a license but Im not quite sure how someone who purchases ~15-20 guns in a 4 year period can be construed as possible dealing. At this one dealer Ive had maybe 3 transfers and 2 or 3 buys in around a 3 year period.


That's what worries me. If you can get targeted by this nonsense, I'd say that the majority of us are potentially at risk if the BATFE is going just on numbers of transactions.

It's possible your name ended up on their radar another way...but knowing that they've been combing through records because of this Mexico nonsense it wouldn't surprise me if they have some sort of database that's spitting out names for them to check out because of a particular pattern they've identified.

[Business_Casual]

That's what worries me. If you can get targeted by this nonsense, I'd say that the majority of us are potentially at risk if the BATFE is going just on numbers of transactions.

It's possible your name ended up on their radar another way...but knowing that they've been combing through records because of this Mexico nonsense it wouldn't surprise me if they have some sort of database that's spitting out names for them to check out because of a particular pattern they've identified.

Come on, JW777, you know exactly what is happening. There is some "manager" who has been "tasked" with the "gun running" on the border. So to look like he is "doing something" he holds a meeting and his direct reports come up with ideas to investigate gun running. Someone suggests visiting dealers and reviewing the forms, and they go and tell supervisors to tell the street-level agents to check on it and before long they are creating binders full of Belmont's relatives.

This is why we don't want government intrusiveness. It leads to nonsense in the name of "doing something."

Also - I hate the intimidation they use. Show us your papers, indeed.

B_C

[PrivateCitizen]

That's what worries me. If you can get targeted by this nonsense, I'd say that the majority of us are potentially at risk if the BATFE is going just on numbers of transactions.

It's possible your name ended up on their radar another way...but knowing that they've been combing through records because of this Mexico nonsense it wouldn't surprise me if they have some sort of database that's spitting out names for them to check out because of a particular pattern they've identified.

Honestly, this freaks me out a little bit …

I can turn a blind eye to the tinfoil … but when reasonable, responsible people start getting antsy (yeah, JW, I mean you) that just feeds the paranoia … which is generally of a very low quotient for me.

It's the suck. I have 2 Form 1s in front of me that are going in for CLEO tomorrow and then off and up out …

Belmont, if nothing else, thanks for being here and keeping us posted.

ETA: Damn, can't find the Reynolds …

[Heavy Metal]

Come on, JW777, you know exactly what is happening. There is some "manager" who has been "tasked" with the "gun running" on the border. So to look like he is "doing something" he holds a meeting and his direct reports come up with ideas to investigate gun running. Someone suggests visiting dealers and reviewing the forms, and they go and tell supervisors to tell the street-level agents to check on it and before long they are creating binders full of Belmont's relatives.

This is why we don't want government intrusiveness. It leads to nonsense in the name of "doing something."

Also - I hate the intimidation they use. Show us your papers, indeed.

B_C

In .govspeak, what you describe is called "Bean Counting".

That ATF Inspector is proabally expected to get so many beans per month.

He too is just numbers on a spreadsheet to someone a few levels above him.

[thopkins22]

Would the list of guns he owns have to be destroyed after ascertaining that he was doing nothing illegal/the investigation was closed? Gun sales records have to be wiped clean after 24hrs (or so) right? But what good is that if they can just go and copy all the 4473s?

I'm wondering the same thing. If they aren't allowed to keep the records they can't possibly keep these "legally" obtained records once determining that he isn't smuggling guns to the cartels...right?

Nonetheless, this is BS. Being an enthusiast in TX, I imagine it's only a matter of time before they visit me. As the son of a lawyer I know I shouldn't say diddly squat to them and call my lawyer, but damn it seems easier to do what Belmont did and show them the rifles/handguns/serial numbers in question.

I'm talking to my lawyer about a trust I inherited tomorrow anyway, I'll be sure to ask about this.

[dbrowne1]

Honestly, I think it's damn scary and I live my life pretty damn squeaky clean.

I agree.

And Belmont, you were far more cooperative and a lot more forgiving about this visit that I would have been.

[FromMyColdDeadHand]

Being a member of this forum, I wonder if Belmont's choice of firearms was more the rationale than then number. A bunch of O/U's and bolt actions might not have peaked their interest, but ARs and other EBR type stuff might have raised a flag?

Just a thought, not a rationale.

[dbrowne1]

You're welcome



Try not to read into every little thing said. You're blowing somethings way out perportion ;)

No he isn't. Federal agents coming to see you, with a dossier on you and your property and demanding to see it, along with thinly veiled threats, is not acceptable. If you have the goods on somebody, go get a warrant. This sort of thing is nothing more than a harassing fishing expedition.

[dbrowne1]

I don't see anything wrong with them talking to you about bills of sale, getting an OL #, etc. If nothing else they are telling you how to get them out of your hair quicker in the event a trace brings them to your place.

If I did FTF sales, it's a practice I'd be doing

Ok. Do you see any problem with closing the door and NOT talking to them?

Unless a gun I owned at some point was involved in a crime, and they provide me with satisfactory proof of that or a subpoena/order to produce it, they are not getting anything other than deafening silence.

[dbrowne1]

I don't like their methods, and I think it's scary that they come to you in an adversarial way, if you aren't really the subject. Or even if you are the subject, they have a reasonable idea that paperwork anomalies are not going to lead to anything.

In their mind, this is routine work, and probably view that visit as the least adversarial method they have at their disposal. Even if you and I view it 180º oppositely from the agents.

Their methods (unannounced visits at home with scare tactics) are at least half the reason why I have a policy of non-cooperation. If you plot and plan and pounce on me at home and try to intimidate, it will backfire horribly at least in my case. What you will get is a closed door and silence, and an even poorer view of your agency.

Maybe these tactics work on 90% of sheep out there, but they piss me off.

[Belmont31R]

See guys closing the door in the face, and having a "come back with a warrant" door mat might seem like the manly thing to do you are still one man against the entire Federal government. I really hate to say it but sometimes its more practical to just show them what they want to see, and be done with it. Im not rich, and can't throw money at lawyers left and right. We were already investigated by CPS in 2008 after one of ours kids unbuckled himself from his high chair, and feel onto our kitchen floor. Not only did we have to deal with CPS coming to our home to accuse of us child abuse but we had several thousand dollars in medical bills to pay even after our 500/mo insurance took care of their part. Ive really grown to abhore government intervention for "doing good" but WTF is someone like me supposed to do? NONE of us have the money to take on the government by ourselves. If they really want you in jail they will find a way to do so. There are so many laws on the books each one of us is committing a crime doing normal everyday things only an "idiot" would think would land you in jail. If I had to face some overly bored ATF agent looking for a prosecution to add to his resume it would bankrupt me. Up until a year and a half ago I was poor E4 trying to feed his family, and work hasn't come easy since then. So for those of you who keep a lawyer on speed dial and would slam the door on their faces you don't really know what you could be up against if one of them got a wild hair up their ass. Its happened to plenty of good men, and if it means I have to swallow my true feelings for 30 minutes to end the situation then so be it. I have a 23 year old wife, and twin 4 year old boys I have to keep fed and moving. If I were single with nothing to lose, and pocket full of money Id love to tell them to f-off. I disdain the ATF but damn there is no single "David" out there who can slay this "Goliath" on his own.

[kry226]

Belmont, looks like (like you suspected or heard) you've become a target of Project Gunrunner.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/

By the way, what area of Texas are you in?

[thopkins22]

Found this gold nugget. http://www.atf.gov/field/houston/


Since Houston is the number one origination point of firearms recovered in crimes in Mexico, firearms trafficking is an investigative priority. Recently we detailed 100 agents, investigators and support staff for 120 days to Houston and the border with Mexico to combat firearms trafficking. The initiative, called Gunrunner Impact Teams (GRIT) was very successful resulting in hundreds of criminal investigations and over 1000 firearms dealer inspections.

Success=Many Investigations

I suppose I'm successful at picking up girls at bars...I've tried a bunch(though no mention of my attempt/scoring ratio will make the internet.)

[Belmont31R]

Belmont, looks like (like you suspected or heard) you've become a target of Project Gunrunner.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/programs/project-gunrunner/

By the way, what area of Texas are you in?



I am outside of Austin in Williamson County.

[d90king]

Belmont, I honestly don't think you did anything wrong at all. I think you did what the vast majority of guys on here would do if they opened the door to a couple of badges first thing in the AM...

Its easy to talk tough and say chuck you farley, but when the event happens in real time and you have nothing to hide, I don't think you're any different from most of us on here. If they became antagonistic or unprofessional and made allegations, then I am sure your attitude would have changed.

You have to do what's best for you and your family. Period, and if somebody judges your actions thats their problem.

I think what most find scary is what occurred, not how you handled it. After reflecting on some of JW's and BC's posts it certainly doesn't give you warm fuzzies when you think about it over time....

Its easy to sit behind a screen and Monday morning it without having gone through the experience first hand...

[mr_smiles]

I would have asked for legal counsel and if told I'm not under arrest they can bugger off.

I'm sorry but they have zero ground for coming to your house and making accusations, and that's just what they did.

Like it or not they treated you as the bad guy no matter how friendly they seemed (you get more bees with honey than vinegar), they wouldn't have the work up if they believed you to be innocent of any crimes.

[thopkins22]

Belmont, I honestly don't think you did anything wrong at all. I think you did what the vast majority of guys on here would do if they opened the door to a couple of badges first thing in the AM...

Its easy to talk tough and say chuck you farley, but when the event happens in real time and you have nothing to hide, I don't think you're any different from most of us on here. If they became antagonistic or unprofessional and made allegations, then I am sure your attitude would have changed.

You have to do what's best for you and your family. Period, and if somebody judges your actions thats their problem.

I think what most find scary is what occurred, not how you handled it. After reflecting on some of JW's and BC's posts it certainly doesn't give you warm fuzzies when you think about it over time....

Its easy to sit behind a screen and Monday morning it without having gone through the experience first hand...

The problem with talking with law enforcement as the subject of any investigation without counsel is that you can be as clean as a whistle, and the investigating officers/detectives/agents/whomever can be as honest and as sincere in their desire to see the actual criminal charged...and things can go extraordinarily bad for you.

At some point waiving your constitutional rights becomes the ballsy move.

[NCPatrolAR]

No he isn't.

Since its rude to ignore direct questions...................


I wasnt talking about the overall incident when I made the "reading into" comment. That was made in reference to the agent talking about someone that used to live across the street from the OP.

[Palmguy]

Consider this scenario...

The ATF shows up at a dealer and asks for all of the 4473's. What is the dealer going to do? Say "no"? Even though none of them would, consider that, for sake of argument, one does say "no." The ATF leaves and then comes back with a warrant and they get them anyways. Any method they use to get the 4473's from the dealer is legal, so the term "legal" is meaningless.

They then thumb through them and sort them by name. Wash, rinse, repeat at every dealer within a 100 mile radius. They then make a file on you, and knock on your door with ALL of your firearms purchase history, even though a registry is illegal.

It may not be "technically" illegal, but it goes against the spirit of the law and circumvents the entire reason that we don't have a firearms registry. I'm sure if enough people started a case, they could take it to court.

But anyways, what can you one do...

Yep. We basically have a de facto national registry maintained by FFLs and subject to examination whenever the BATFE feels like it.

[NCPatrolAR]

Ok. Do you see any problem with closing the door and NOT talking to them?



Contrary to the popular belief of some that I'm some die-hard TBL'er; no I dont have an issue with people that dont want to cooperate in an investigation. I run into all the time and it doesnt phase me a bit.

[Belmont31R]

Here is the "business card" the lead agent left. Redacted name, and PH#'s.




http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj245/BM31R/4c3a5c27.jpg

[VooDoo6Actual]

No he isn't. Federal agents coming to see you, with a dossier on you and your property and demanding to see it, along with thinly veiled threats, is not acceptable. If you have the goods on somebody, go get a warrant. This sort of thing is nothing more than a harassing fishing expedition.

+1 to these comments.

SPOT ON.

[SHIVAN]

This is getting personal awfully quick for me. Can't we discuss the bigger issues without coming down to personal defenses stemming from previous posts in the thread?

Pretty please? :help:

[thopkins22]

ETA:Don't think I was really going the route Shivan was concerned about but I redacted it nonetheless.

[dookie1481]

TBig box stores seem to get away with it easily though.

I work at a big box FFL, we got fined $25K (I believe) for errors found during an ATF audit I was involved in a couple of years ago (not my errors :p).

They could have easily fired me and the entire management staff if they wanted, but we lucked out. On a related note, Walmart pulled guns from ALL Las Vegas stores except one (out of probably 40-50 stores). Big box stores don't really get away with much.

Jay

ETA: By "they" I meant our corporate office

[Iraqgunz]

My wife used to work for Walmart. It is my understanding that Walmart was doing away with most firearms sales due to the fact that they hire idiots and simply put them behind the counter with minimal training. They then wonder why they have problems.


I work at a big box FFL, we got fined $25K (I believe) for errors found during an ATF audit I was involved in a couple of years ago (not my errors :p).

They could have easily fired me and the entire management staff if they wanted, but we lucked out. On a related note, Walmart pulled guns from ALL Las Vegas stores except one (out of probably 40-50 stores). Big box stores don't really get away with much.

Jay

ETA: By "they" I meant our corporate office

[dookie1481]

My wife used to work for Walmart. It is my understanding that Walmart was doing away with most firearms sales due to the fact that they hire idiots and simply put them behind the counter with minimal training. They then wonder why they have problems.

Yeah that's the gist of it. My understanding is that the ATF went easy on them in exchange for them cleaning up their firearms sales (i.e. pulling firearms from most of their stores). I believe that the store managers have discretion over whether or not they sell firearms.

Jay

[500grains]

This whole ATF gun smuggling escapade is ridiculous. The Mex gangs get their guns from the Mex army and cops. Just look at the loads of M16s the cartels use.

[John_Wayne777]

Folks, it is absolutely true that there are people running guns to the mexican cartel dumbasses who are causing all sorts of problems. I have absolutely zero problem with the BATFE using reasonable methods to target and prosecute those gunrunners.

I simply don't consider this sort of behavior reasonable just as I don't consider asking male between the age of 18 and 46 to submit DNA evidence to the police to solve a rape case, or asking people to hand over their AR15 rifles so they can be tested to eliminate you as a potential DC sniper suspect. Dragnets irk me. Since I'm the law-abiding, tax paying, wholesome type whose worst criminal offense has been driving on an expired registration, I get rather perturbed when I'm expected to prove to the government's satisfaction that I'm not a scumbag or risk the chance that they will take an even keener interest in me and do God-knows-what to my life in the process.

A BATFE agent investigating me for gunrunning would be the height of stupidity...especially since I can drive them to a trailer park a few miles away where they can watch living, breathing, in-the-flesh mexican gangsters coming and going and probably develop a solid lead that would actually accomplish something.

I'm as pro law enforcement as a person can get...but this kind of stuff crosses a line.

...and to followup on what Shivan said earlier, let's avoid being personal here. The people on this site, whether they wear a badge or not, aren't the source of these kinds of problems.

[arizonaranchman]

That's not how this country is supposed to work. I will save the political tirade for later. Until next time...be afraid.

Exactly. Scarey stuff... This isn't communist China.

[Belmont31R]

Heres some key indicators according to the ATF:


Want to buy a large number of
the same model firearm, or
similar firearms.

Choose only tactical type semiautomatic rifles (.223 or
7.62x39) and large frame semiautomatic
pistols (.38 Super, 9mm, .45 and 5.7mm)



More at: http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-3317-6.pdf



So if you live in a border state, and have quite a few AR's or AK's be prepared to have this happen to you. This reminds me of that FBI "ring wing extremist" flier they had where doing completely legal activities makes you a potential criminal. Believing in, and exercising your rights makes you a target in an investigation.

[parishioner]

This reminds me of that FBI "ring wing extremist" flier they had where doing completely legal activities makes you a potential criminal. Believing in, and exercising your rights makes you a target in an investigation.

Yea, this is the same government that has you tabbed as a possible threat to the homeland just for being honorably discharged, don't forget. I guess maybe this whole incident really isn't that shocking.

[Artos]

I'm simply amazed what folks will do to sacrifice their freedoms...REALLY, how much money is your name & honor worth.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

South Texas Gun Seizures Tied to Ex-Drug Agent

Friday, August 13, 2010 | Borderland Reporter Gerardo
By Guillermo Contreras
San Antonio Express-News


Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics undercover agent Francisco Javier Reyes Luna is facing three counts of federal firearm violations.


Three firearms seizures in South Texas this year, totaling 131 weapons headed toward Mexico, appeared unrelated, until federal agents traced several of the weapons to an unlikely source.

This week, agents with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives arrested a now-former agent with the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs on charges that he bought and sold high-powered guns for illegal export to Mexico.


more here:

http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2010/08/south-texas-gun-seizures-tied-to-ex.html

[Belmont31R]

Yea, this is the same government that has you tabbed as a possible threat to the homeland just for being honorably discharged, don't forget. I guess maybe this whole incident really isn't that shocking.



If anyone has any NFA stuff the ATF has a legimate authority to see those. But I doubt that really has anything to do with this. Basically if you buy some handguns, and some "tactical semi auto's" its suspicious. An ATF agent is one of the few LEO that have the legal authority to request for NFA forms, and you have to give them to them for examination upon request. Local LEO not so much but it would probably make your life easier if you showed it to them, and explained what it is to them. Many local LEO's have no clue about NFA firearms laws, and Ive talked to a couple who had no idea it was legal to own these items. Actually I just gave away a dog to a local sheriff's deputy, and he met me wearing a Larue hat. We talked about guns for about 20 minutes, and he had no idea about CHL reciprocity. Now I carry a printout of what states TX recognizes because it would just be my luck to get hemmed up because an LEO didn't have the training on our laws.


I just don't like something like owning some guns being called suspicious, and the fact they are using the FFL system as a sort of registry instead of maintaining their own. I don't think dealer records should be able to be confiscated unless they are investigating a crime that has already occurred. Now they are using those FFL records to comb for possible crimes, and then going to people's homes without a knowing if a crime ever occurred. The Feds are doing this, and yet the DOJ thinks its illegal for a lawman in Arizona to ask a person if they are an American citizen or not? If we had a secure border there would be no need for this "Project Gunrunner". To top it off this is being paid for out of the "Stimulus Bill". Yeah they are really stimulating the economy by hassling people over legally purchased firearms.

[dbrowne1]

If anyone has any NFA stuff the ATF has a legimate authority to see those.

Not really, and not nearly to the extent that many people on the internet seem to believe. Legal ownership of NFA items does not alter the 4th or 5th Amendments, and does not give the ATF special license to show up and start questioning you unannounced.

There is a lot of rumor and bullshit out there about whether owning NFA items opens you up to warrantless inspections, etc. It doesn't. End of story.



An ATF agent is one of the few LEO that have the legal authority to request for NFA forms, and you have to give them to them for examination upon request. Local LEO not so much but it would probably make your life easier if you showed it to them, and explained what it is to them. Many local LEO's have no clue about NFA firearms laws, and Ive talked to a couple who had no idea it was legal to own these items.

Not to open another can of worms that gets rehashed periodically in the NFA forum, but state/local LEOs do in fact have the authority to demand to see your forms, at least in effect. Every state I've ever looked up has a state law that bans or restricts NFA items unless they are properly registered via the NFA. Which in turn means that if you don't produce a form to the state/local LEO, you're likely to win a ride downtown.

The broader point in all of this is that shutting up and then closing the door or walking away (after clarifying that you are free to go if there is any question), and keeping a low profile with your firearms in public and visible areas of your house, is the easiest way to live. Don't talk to them, don't give them a reason to talk to you.

[Belmont31R]

Not really, and not nearly to the extent that many people on the internet seem to believe. Legal ownership of NFA items does not alter the 4th or 5th Amendments, and does not give the ATF special license to show up and start questioning you unannounced.

There is a lot of rumor and bullshit out there about whether owning NFA items opens you up to warrantless inspections, etc. It doesn't. End of story.




Not to open another can of worms that gets rehashed periodically in the NFA forum, but state/local LEOs do in fact have the authority to demand to see your forms, at least in effect. Every state I've ever looked up has a state law that bans or restricts NFA items unless they are properly registered via the NFA. Which in turn means that if you don't produce a form to the state/local LEO, you're likely to win a ride downtown.

The broader point in all of this is that shutting up and then closing the door or walking away (after clarifying that you are free to go if there is any question), and keeping a low profile with your firearms in public and visible areas of your house, is the easiest way to live. Don't talk to them, don't give them a reason to talk to you.



Well no its not waving your 4th Amendment rights to own an NFA item but you do have to show them the forms if they ask. No they cannot enter your home at will, search your car, etc.

Ive read the TX NFA laws, and there is no mandatory requirement to show NFA forms. Yes doing so would be the prudent thing to do but its not the same requirements if an ATF agent asks to see them. In effect, yes, but you aren't violating any laws if you say no. Yes, that may mean you go for a ride if you refuse because they can arrest you until they figure out if they are legal or not. Im just saying on "paper" there is no requirement for local LEO but in "reality" you'll probably be in for a bad few days if you don't.


From ATF:



Section 12.1 Maintaining proof of registration. The NFA requires that a person possessing a firearm
registered in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR) retain proof of
registration which must be made available to the Attorney General, specifically an ATF agent or
investigator, upon request.184 Proof of registration would be on a Form 1 registering a firearm to its
maker, Form 2 registering a firearm to an importer or manufacturer, or a Form 3, 4, or 5 showing
registration of a firearm to a transferee.

[Littlelebowski]

See guys closing the door in the face, and having a "come back with a warrant" door mat might seem like the manly thing to do you are still one man against the entire Federal government. I really hate to say it but sometimes its more practical to just show them what they want to see, and be done with it. Im not rich, and can't throw money at lawyers left and right. We were already investigated by CPS in 2008 after one of ours kids unbuckled himself from his high chair, and feel onto our kitchen floor. Not only did we have to deal with CPS coming to our home to accuse of us child abuse but we had several thousand dollars in medical bills to pay even after our 500/mo insurance took care of their part. Ive really grown to abhore government intervention for "doing good" but WTF is someone like me supposed to do? NONE of us have the money to take on the government by ourselves. If they really want you in jail they will find a way to do so. There are so many laws on the books each one of us is committing a crime doing normal everyday things only an "idiot" would think would land you in jail. If I had to face some overly bored ATF agent looking for a prosecution to add to his resume it would bankrupt me. Up until a year and a half ago I was poor E4 trying to feed his family, and work hasn't come easy since then. So for those of you who keep a lawyer on speed dial and would slam the door on their faces you don't really know what you could be up against if one of them got a wild hair up their ass. Its happened to plenty of good men, and if it means I have to swallow my true feelings for 30 minutes to end the situation then so be it. I have a 23 year old wife, and twin 4 year old boys I have to keep fed and moving. If I were single with nothing to lose, and pocket full of money Id love to tell them to f-off. I disdain the ATF but damn there is no single "David" out there who can slay this "Goliath" on his own.

Well said. It's one thing to pound one's chest on the internet but our public servants can ruin your life by "doing their job."

[dbrowne1]

Well no its not waving your 4th Amendment rights to own an NFA item but you do have to show them the forms if they ask. No they cannot enter your home at will, search your car, etc.

Which means they can call and make an appointment, like a normal human being, instead of stalking you and showing up unannounced at your house. Which is the only point I was making.

[dbrowne1]

Well said. It's one thing to pound one's chest on the internet but our public servants can ruin your life by "doing their job."

You're far more likely to talk yourself into more trouble than you are to "silence" your way into more trouble. If they already have the goods on you, they aren't there to "knock and talk." They already have a warrant and they're there to arrest you.

There's really no "chest thumping" required here, and no reason to be rude about dealing with them. Just say "I'm not going to talk to you" and close the door. Pretty easy. No need to mention lawyers or any other nonsense.

[khc3]

You're far more likely to talk yourself into more trouble than you are to "silence" your way into more trouble. If they already have the goods on you, they aren't there to "knock and talk." They already have a warrant and they're there to arrest you.

There's really no "chest thumping" required here, and no reason to be rude about dealing with them. Just say "I'm not going to talk to you" and close the door. Pretty easy. No need to mention lawyers or any other nonsense.

Exactly.

I didn't tell the deputies to come back with a warrant because I thought I was some badass giving it to the man.

I was scared as heck, had no idea what the deputies were talking about, had no information to help them, and stated so repeatedly.

I will say that the longer he ignored my statement that I was not letting him in my house without a warrant, the more determined I got.

I apologize if it sounded like I was slamming you (Belmont 31R) for "pussing out" and talking to them. That wasn't my intention at all. I've been in a very similar situation and know how stressful it is. I think the only people who aren't at least a little nervous when talking to the cops are sociopaths.

I didn't sleep well for a year after it happened.

[Safetyhit]

I think the only people who aren't at least a little nervous when talking to the cops are sociopaths.


You forgot dbrowne1. ;)


In all seriousness, of course it isn't at all fair to jump one someone who is just trying to do the right thing and talk to authorities who have what they deem to be important questions. Whether it's really the best thing to do and whether those questions are based on anything legit is relevant, but if someone does indeed believe they have nothing to hide then they try to be helpful in order to hopefully diffuse the situation.

And after all, it's easy to interpret a "I have nothing to say unless you have a warrant" response as an invitation for escalation. Why act like you have something to hide if you know you don't is a natural question to ask oneself under such stressful circumstances.

[dbrowne1]

You forgot dbrowne1. ;)

No, no. I don't get nervous when I talk to them because I just don't talk to them in the first place.

Whether I'm a sociopath is a totally separate question I suppose.:D


In all seriousness, of course it isn't at all fair to jump one someone who is just trying to do the right thing and talk to authorities who have what they deem to be important questions.

I don't think less of people who do talk to LE in situations like this one - I just don't think it's a good idea for the individual in most cases, and I don't think it's a good idea for society in general to reward these "in your face" tactics by cooperating.


And after all, it's easy to interpret a "I have nothing to say unless you have a warrant" response as an invitation for escalation. Why act like you have something to hide if you know you don't is a natural question to ask oneself under such stressful circumstances.

As I said before, you can decline to speak with them without being rude or flippant about it. There's no need to piss them off by talking about needing a warrant or lawyering up or anything else. Just politely tell them you don't wish to speak with them and be done. Not a big deal.

[khc3]

You forgot dbrowne1. ;)


In all seriousness, of course it isn't at all fair to jump one someone who is just trying to do the right thing and talk to authorities who have what they deem to be important questions. Whether it's really the best thing to do and whether those questions are based on anything legit is relevant, but if someone does indeed believe they have nothing to hide then they try to be helpful in order to hopefully diffuse the situation.

And after all, it's easy to interpret a "I have nothing to say unless you have a warrant" response as an invitation for escalation. Why act like you have something to hide if you know you don't is a natural question to ask oneself under such stressful circumstances.

At the time my incident happened, I truly didn't know anything that would help them. I suppose I could have let them into my house at 1:45 AM to look for a fugitive from WA state, but I knew he wasn't there. The whole thing was handled so unprofessionally, so half-assed, with such little concern for the public these guys are supposed to be serving, that I resolved then to never interact with the police any more than is required by law.

And I am fully prepared to accept the consequences of that resolution.

I mean, if the police are canvassing a general area, asking for witnesses or something that's one thing. If they're wanting to talk to me specifically, they'll have to do it with my attorney present.

If that bothers them, I guess I have to deal with that.

[Belmont31R]

Well that will probably be the last time I do anything like that. If one visit isn't enough to satisfy their curiosity then they either need to have a warrant for something to charge me with or leave me alone.




I do realize most people talk themselves into a conviction or at least greatly help LE's case against them but Im certainly not dealing without a license or running guns into MX.

[Littlelebowski]

You're far more likely to talk yourself into more trouble than you are to "silence" your way into more trouble. If they already have the goods on you, they aren't there to "knock and talk." They already have a warrant and they're there to arrest you.

There's really no "chest thumping" required here, and no reason to be rude about dealing with them. Just say "I'm not going to talk to you" and close the door. Pretty easy. No need to mention lawyers or any other nonsense.

Insulting you was not my intention.

[RWK]

Well, on the bright side, at least they bothered to knock...

Overall, I think Belmont31R played it well. Did you verify their credentials...?

[Heartland Hawk]

Belmont, I'm glad you posted this. And by account, you handled this encounter well and professionally.

It is a little more infuriating and terrifying all at once to know that:

1.) Belmont realizes (as most of us do) that it is way easier to just cooperate, than stand up for any infringement of any rights that this incident illustrates. His explanation of not having the resources to not IMMEDIATELY cooperate is one of the most terrifying realizations that was illustrated here. This is a huge red flag - this shows that something is already terribly (perhaps irrevocably) wrong with the relationship between this Republic's citizens and the government.

2.) this experience shows (once again) that there is in fact already a de-facto gun registry in the US. It is in place and exceptionally easy for a federal agency to access. Nice end run around the intent of the law.:mad:

[BrianS]

2.) this experience shows (once again) that there is in fact already a de-facto gun registry in the US. It is in place and exceptionally easy for a federal agency to access. Nice end run around the intent of the law.:mad:

GCA of 68 being step removed registration has been a common complaint for a long time, even pointed out in various pop culture references. Remember the scene in Red Dawn where the Cuban commander tells an underling to go to the sporting goods stores and pick up the 4473s?

[Bubba FAL]

All this over 20 guns? Damn - I've, oh wait...nevermind. :)

Belmont, I'm not blaming you for cooperating with the agents, I'd probably grit my teeth and do the same in that situation.

But, you do realize that when the nice men from the alphabet agency were chatting up your wife on the porch they were on a major fishing expedition? This is a common interrogation tactic - and a highly successful one at that. Better to have them sit there in uncomfortable silence or limit the conversation to the weather than volunteer information that may give them probable cause for a warrant.

The letter to your representatives is a wonderful idea. That is, what they're there for, after all. Maybe if enough complaint letters reach them, programs antagonizing law-abiding citizens will cease. Maybe follow up with a phone call or two to make sure they got the letter?

[Mac5.56]

The lead guy had a 1/2" binder just for me, and everything separated by tabs. So yeah they sure do their homework...


I think they are told/trained to tell people there is no database but obviously they have access to lots of information.

And one of those tabs contained every post/thread/response that you have submitted viewed, or subscribed to on M4Carbine.net and every other internet forum of this nature you have viewed since the first time you said "guns are neat" online. He just didn't show that tab to you.

[Mac5.56]

I don't think less of people who do talk to LE in situations like this one - I just don't think it's a good idea for the individual in most cases, and I don't think it's a good idea for society in general to reward these "in your face" tactics by cooperating.


Agreed 100% on this!

I understand the stress as well, but these are our rights we are protecting, and yes it is stressful when the state attempts to take them away, but we are the only people capable of insisting that they are ours! Every word of the Constitution, and every Amendment are ours, and no person know matter how high and mighty they may feel in their new tighy wighties has a right to challenge that.

[HeavyDuty]

And one of those tabs contained every post/thread/response that you have submitted viewed, or subscribed to on M4Carbine.net and every other internet forum of this nature you have viewed since the first time you said "guns are neat" online. He just didn't show that tab to you.

Tinfoil hat much?

[Boss Hogg]

"Don't talk to them, don't give them a reason to talk to you."

Some of the best advice ever offered on M4C. Be courteous and professional if you ever do have to show your Form 1/4. I think most LEOs on here would not agree to a search of their vehicle or car without a search warrant.

[RWK]

Tinfoil hat much?

No doubt!

[500grains]

Originally Posted by khc3 View Post
I think the only people who aren't at least a little nervous when talking to the cops are sociopaths.

Type "police planted evidence" into Google and see what comes up.

The fact is that any encounter with law enforcement has the potential to go bad, especially if they already suspect you of something (such as gun running), even if their suspicion is unfounded. "The truth always wins out" only works in Disney movies. This is real life.

I do not intend to bash cops here, but there are no deaf mutes in prison. Hint, hint, hint.

[Safetyhit]

I do not intend to bash cops here, but there are no deaf mutes in prison. Hint, hint, hint.


So as long as someone can't hear or speak clearly they are immune from prosecution? Astounding.


That's almost as silly as Mac's comment above about every single firearm forum post of Belmont's being part of a file. Come on, fellas.

[Irish]

So as long as someone can't hear or speak clearly they are immune from prosecution? Astounding.
I don't think it was meant literally. In other words don't participate in a conversation with someone who can put you in jail and then you won't have to worry about it.

[Safetyhit]

I don't think it was meant literally. In other words don't participate in a conversation with someone who can put you in jail and then you won't have to worry about it.


Well actually I was well aware of that, just believe it to be too simplistic a statement to be making here in this relatively serious context. Plus it sends a gray message at best.

But maybe I am over thinking a subtle joke again, no big deal. Probably a sign to get out and cut the grass while I still have time.

[SHIVAN]

Per usual, this thread has taken a turn for the retarded, and personally motivated posting.

I'm very unclear on why some people can not discuss an issue without leaping in to some sort of personal judgements/assessments.

Locked.