View Full Version : Noise sensitive shooter, quietest non-supressor muzzle devices?
ChicagoTex
08-12-10, 13:52
I've been considering posting this thread for a long time, but kept delaying it in the hopes I'd stumble across the answer and not have to come off as such a relative newbie, but I only own one AR and don't have buddies/class exposure to let me check out lots of other muzzle devices.
So here goes...
I'm a noise-sensitive shooter. It is by far the most problematic thing about shooting for me. Actual recoil doesn't matter much (within reason), nor is flash a big deal, it's report that kills me.
I wanted to ask y'all what the quietest muzzle device (for the shooter) you've shot is that isn't a supressor, for a 14.5-16" barrel carbine.
Right now I'm running a standard A2 on my 16" carbine and it's tolerable outdoors (though very unpleasant indoors). I was thinking maybe something like a Smith Vortex could lessen report even more though. What say you all?
Noveske kx3 perhaps. Have you tried doubling up on your earpro? Ear inserts with electronic ear muffs.
ChicagoTex
08-12-10, 14:20
I have doubled up my ear pro, and that's all well and good. But I wanted to see if there was anything I could do to mitigate overall report and get more of a good thing.
Noveske kx3 perhaps.
This forum's filled with threads demonstrating that the Flaming Pig really doesn't do anything for you on a 14"+ barrel, so I doubt that's the way to go (besides, the weight penalty on a 16" barrel would be intolerable).
I am using a Troy Claymore on a 11.5" barrel to help redirect some of the noise away from me. It did help on a 11.5" - I have no experience using it on a 16" rifle.
http://store.troyind.com/Claymore_Muzzle_Brake_p/sbra-clm-05bt-00.htm
ETA: DPMS sells a cheaper version (came out before claymore). I never used one.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=829
Crow Hunter
08-12-10, 14:50
In my experience, the only way to get it quieter is to reduce the powder burning outside of the barrel and/or move the barrel farther away from you and/or direct the blast away from you/sound reflective surfaces.
A 20" barrel is alot better, a 24" barrel firing .223 is dramatically better. I have a 6724 and there is no comparison to the 6920 w/556.
Are you shooting inside/shooting lanes/under cover? Anything that is reflecting the soudwaves back in your direction will make it worse.
Keep in mind, ANYTHING, that you do that actually reduces sound signature(rather than just reflecting it downrange) COULD be taken the wrong way by certain alphabet agencies.
Wear double ear-pro is the best thing you can do. What type of muffs are you running now? Other than that, desensitize yourself.
dorchester
08-12-10, 15:23
Sadly, there is no free lunch. The differences between various flash suppressors are so small as to be invisible, just don't use anything advertising itself as a muzzle brake. I fought this battle vigorously on a 16 inch .308 AR-10 (brutal is the adjective that comes to mind, if fired under a roof or indoors). Here are the solutions 1) KX-3 (works amazingly well, adds about 4 extra ounces on the end of the barrel, assuming a muzzle device of some sort), 2) good hearing protection 3) flinch and bear the pain and damage (!), 4) put a 20 inch barrel on it (actually a bit lighter than a 16inch w/KX-3, more muzzle velocity, and only about 2 inches longer). There you go, an 18 inch barrel might be enough of a difference to help also and of course a .308 is a lot worse than a 5.56, so YMMV. I switch between 1 and 4 depending on my mood.
ChicagoTex
08-12-10, 15:33
What type of muffs are you running now?
Howard Leight 33s.
Kinda what I figured, not much that can be done. Bummer, I guess I'll have to learn to deal with it.
For the cost you'd be looking at modifying a weapon, see if that would get you better earpro. I have the same set of HL's, but they're not the best in that department.
When I run surefire earplugs under even badly worn Sordin's I'm unable to hear a truck I'm inside - maybe get prescription earplugs and run them under muffs?
I see the earpro as a problem much more than the weapon system.
ChicagoTex
08-12-10, 20:24
I see the earpro as a problem much more than the weapon system.
Fair enough. I've been seriously considering picking up some Surefires for doubling up (the plugs I have now are pretty crappy and generic) and obviously I'd love to have a pair of Soridins, but my financial situation would have to improve a bit for that to happen.
Shoot an SBR without earpro for a while. Then you won't be able to hear the noise at all any more.
variablebinary
08-12-10, 23:23
Double up on earpro
Get a 20" barrel
Shoot outdoors
Shoot more till you get acclimated.
eternal24k
08-13-10, 12:21
Double up on earpro
Get a 20" barrel
Shoot outdoors
Shoot more till you get acclimated.
this,
if report while shooting is bothering you, I dont know if a different muzzle device will do much, i never feel the report while shooting except supine. But in general, a flash hider (A2) will come off quieter than a brake
For the muzzle device I would vote for the KX3. It doesn't lower the report but it does direct it away from you. It was great on my 10.5" rifle.
You could also try a longer upper. The shorter you go the more violent the report.
Also better ear pro is a must. Spend once and it will last a long time. I double up with a set of disposable foams and a set of Peltors on top turned up. I can still hear whats going on but it doesn't let anything bad in. Plus if the muffs get knocked off I won't go deaf.
Also +1 on shooting more and in a wide open space if possible.
-Mike
ChicagoTex
08-13-10, 19:33
Take up scrap booking.
.22 upper?
I think some of you are confusing "noise-sensitive" with "scared of the big boom". I've been shooting all kinds of things for years. I can handle it. It's not like I'm twitching with every shot or anything. It's just that noise happens to be the most distracting element of shooting for me and I was looking to see if there was anything I could do to improve my current situation.
It's not the end of the world or especially prohibitive (particularly outdoors).
I am using a Troy Claymore on a 11.5" barrel to help redirect some of the noise away from me. It did help on a 11.5" - I have no experience using it on a 16" rifle.
http://store.troyind.com/Claymore_Muzzle_Brake_p/sbra-clm-05bt-00.htm
ETA: DPMS sells a cheaper version (came out before claymore). I never used one.
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=829
While I am not noise sensitive, I've been playing around with the same concepts due to Massachusetts obnoxious retention of the "AW ban." Most muzzle brakes are "side blasters," directing pressure and vibration to the sides or rear. Some muzzle devices, which may or may not be brakes, direct the blast and sound forward. Often these are designed for full auto or CQB applications and may help avoid muzzle rise during firing, but tend to direct the recoil straight backward. Sometimes these are termed "linear" recoil compensators.
I have only seen four of these in common use, and CQBDRIVER mentions two. The others are the Noveske KX3 or "flaming pig" (really designed for short barreled [i.e., < 10" full auto] firearms) and the new BattleComp (which I have no experience with and which does have some side slots).
I have just installed a DPMS/Levang compensator, but have yet to try it out. It's a bit of a PIA as there are no wrench flats and you really should use a strap wrench and softer crush washer, such as the YHM version rather than the DPMS version.
Midway sells them for less than the DPMS store, BTW.
decodeddiesel
08-16-10, 14:28
I know you are looking for something that "isn't a supressor" however, in all seriousness have you considered taking that next step into NFA land and purchasing a real suppressor? I see from your location that you are in TX and everything should be good to go there af far as NFA laws are concerned.
There are options like the OPS-INC M4S (http://www.adcofirearms.com/acc/productLine_.cfm?brand=OPS%20INC&product_category=silencers) that is very reasonably priced. (http://www.adcofirearms.com/itemdetails_.cfm?inventorynumber=3823) While it may not offer "hearing safe" sound levels it will bring down the noise of 14.5 or 16 inch AR considerably. Also it is very compact, lightweight, and did I mention cheap?
I have a good deal of experience with suppressed M4s (14.5") using the Knight's NT4 and it makes the shooting experience much more enjoyable. YMMV and all that...
decodeddiesel
08-16-10, 14:30
Another thing to consider is that as per the BATFE any muzzle device that reduces the sound signature of the weapon AT ALL, even by 1dB, is considered a suppressor.
You could...
1) Buy a suppressor and do the NFA thing
2) Try other/multiple hearing protection (Or custom make your own)
3) Train yourself to not be so effected/distracted by the loud noises
4) Get hypnotized...
Not much else I can figure as helping seeing as just about any noise reduction device would be NFA classified.
I know for musicians they have very custom and expensive Personal Audio ear inserts that allow you to adjust the frequency level and DB level allowed into the device and thus into your ear; they look like hearing aids. Those are about as expensive as several rifles... But they would do what you wnat them to do; I don't have a link but I remember them being very specialized and only offerred from (1) manufacturer (as far as I know?).
Out of curiosity; what is the specific "distraction" you are coming up against? Anxiety from the boom that is coming? Head beeps/sounds after the bang? The actual report itself? ETC...?
Good luck.
Heavy Metal
08-16-10, 15:38
Serious question:
Have you been to an audiolgist and been checked for Ménière’s disease?
ChicagoTex
08-16-10, 17:27
I know you are looking for something that "isn't a supressor" however, in all seriousness have you considered taking that next step into NFA land and purchasing a real suppressor? I see from your location that you are in TX and everything should be good to go there af far as NFA laws are concerned.
There are options like the OPS-INC M4S that is very reasonably priced. While it may not offer "hearing safe" sound levels it will bring down the noise of 14.5 or 16 inch AR considerably. Also it is very compact, lightweight, and did I mention cheap?
I'm well aware of my rights and capabilities in the state of Texas. My goal of avoiding a supressor wasn't centered around confusion about their legality. It's about cost. a $225 supressor + a $200 tax stamp is noticeably pricier than a ~$50 MD. If I had the scratch for a supressor, I'd first invest it in something like Sordin earpro.
Another thing to consider is that as per the BATFE any muzzle device that reduces the sound signature of the weapon AT ALL, even by 1dB, is considered a suppressor.
Which is why all conventional MDs REDIRECT sound, not reduce it.
ChicagoTex
08-16-10, 17:41
Out of curiosity; what is the specific "distraction" you are coming up against? Anxiety from the boom that is coming? Head beeps/sounds after the bang? The actual report itself? ETC...?
The actual report itself. It's not huge or crippling in a .223 carbine, but it is my biggest distraction.
Serious question:
Have you been to an audiolgist and been checked for Ménière’s disease?
I have not as I have never demonstrated any symptom of the disease. I do not have progressive hearing loss, dizzy spells, vertigo, lasting pain or ringing in my ears (unless shooting WITHOUT earpro, a mistake I made exactly once).
Again, I think a lot of you are imagining this as a lot worse or more debilitating than it is. I was just wondering if there was an MD alternative to the A2 FH that significantly reduced perceived report for the shooter that wasn't a supressor. There isn't, I get it. We can all move on now, thank you.
RogerinTPA
08-16-10, 17:46
As others have stated, get better electronic EarPro and use plugs. Spend more time on the range. How does the report from others going off on the range affect you? The same as your weapon or no?
ChicagoTex
08-16-10, 17:52
How does the report from others going off on the range affect you? The same as your weapon or no?
Because of the way the ranges I've shot at are set up, I've yet to shoot alongside others shooting centerfire rifle simultaneously. I've done a lot of that on the indoor handgun range though. In that situation the people in the stalls immediately next to me sound about as loud as my gun does (when we're shooting the same round, usually 9mm or .45), I don't really notice people in stalls further away unless they're shooting something considerably louder (i.e. 44 mag and up).
Heavy Metal
08-16-10, 18:40
Worng term.
How about Hyperacusis?
http://hubpages.com/hub/Hyperacusis-Sensitivity-to-Noise-Symptoms-and-Treatments
ChicagoTex
08-16-10, 19:27
How about Hyperacusis?
Nope. I do have very sensitive hearing, but it's never been a problem or distraction in normal day to day life.
decodeddiesel
08-16-10, 22:10
I'm well aware of my rights and capabilities in the state of Texas. My goal of avoiding a supressor wasn't centered around confusion about their legality. It's about cost. a $225 supressor + a $200 tax stamp is noticeably pricier than a ~$50 MD. If I had the scratch for a supressor, I'd first invest it in something like Sordin earpro.
Which is why all conventional MDs REDIRECT sound, not reduce it.
Wow dude, take it down a notch, all I was trying to do was help.
ChicagoTex
08-16-10, 22:41
Wow dude, take it down a notch, all I was trying to do was help.
Sorry if I came off harsh or mean, I didn't mean to, I was just in a hurry and wanted to make my points clear.
Revised:
Point #1. Suppressor, know I can, would love to, but too broke :(
(PS thanks for the referral on the $225 supressor, if I ever do go this route that could be helpful as I had been operating under the impression that the cheapest decent .223 supressor around was more like $600)
Point #2. No villainous/constructive intent here, just looking for something that'd make more racket for people who aren't me than... yknow, me :p
I appreciate your help. The supressor tip in particular may make a big difference down the line.
decodeddiesel
08-16-10, 23:24
Sorry if I came off harsh or mean, I didn't mean to, I was just in a hurry and wanted to make my points clear.
Revised:
Point #1. Suppressor, know I can, would love to, but too broke :(
(PS thanks for the referral on the $225 supressor, if I ever do go this route that could be helpful as I had been operating under the impression that the cheapest decent .223 supressor around was more like $600)
Point #2. No villainous/constructive intent here, just looking for something that'd make more racket for people who aren't me than... yknow, me :p
I appreciate your help. The supressor tip in particular may make a big difference down the line.
NP. Glad I could help. I am in a similar situation as most of the shooting I do I have a 14 month old child near by (with ear pro of course) so an overly loud rifle is something I am leery of. Me personally, I have so much permanent hearing damage it doesn't really make a difference to me.
BTW, a muzzle device does not redirect the sound, it redirects and reforms the supersonic gasses into forming a specific shockwave front. This can be to promote the rapid oxygenation of the expanding gasses and therefore reduce the amount of muzzle flash, or they can be focused into concentrated jets which add a reactive force to the mechanical recoil system therein reducing the felt recoil. It is this redirection that largely determines the sound pressure level (SPL) that is apparent to the shooter and others in the area. The reason why a suppressor is so effective at reducing sound pressure levels is that it slows the expanding gasses to below supersonic levels. Anyway, my mechanical engineer is showing.
ChicagoTex
08-16-10, 23:42
BTW, a muzzle device does not redirect the sound, it redirects and reforms the supersonic gasses into forming a specific shockwave front. This can be to promote the rapid oxygenation of the expanding gasses and therefore reduce the amount of muzzle flash, or they can be focused into concentrated jets which add a reactive force to the mechanical recoil system therein reducing the felt recoil. It is this redirection that largely determines the sound pressure level (SPL) that is apparent to the shooter and others in the area. The reason why a suppressor is so effective at reducing sound pressure levels is that it slows the expanding gasses to below supersonic levels. Anyway, my mechanical engineer is showing.
Makes sense. Certainly explains why a big open can (as opposed to a supressor, which is a closed can) shrouding the muzzle and beyond would be crap idea.
decodeddiesel:
Some follow-ups:
(1) Can I use your explanation? It's much cooler than mine.
(2) As regards this: 'Another thing to consider is that as per the BATFE any muzzle device that reduces the sound signature of the weapon AT ALL, even by 1dB, is considered a suppressor.'
If you know, what does BATF&E use as a baseline to compute if the sound signature has been decreased? Do they measure the firearm's sound signature with and without the muzzle device? Use an industry standard barrel without the device? (I have no idea how they do this.)
(3) How do you divide your name? Is it "decoded/diesel" or "decod/eddie/sel" or "deco/ded/diesel"? I've wanted to know for some time.
Noveske kx3 perhaps.
This one presently resides on a 16" barrel.
It will be moved to a 12.5" once the Form 1 clears.
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/4/4/4/1/cqbr-024.jpg
decodeddiesel
08-17-10, 09:11
decodeddiesel:
Some follow-ups:
(1) Can I use your explanation? It's much cooler than mine.
Sure thing. This sort of thing is literally my bread and butter at my work. Usually it is one a much larger scale though, but the basic physics still apply here.
If you know, what does BATF&E use as a baseline to compute if the sound signature has been decreased? Do they measure the firearm's sound signature with and without the muzzle device? Use an industry standard barrel without the device? (I have no idea how they do this.)
I wish I knew to be honest, however this is the definition which seems to be embraced by the ATF. Logically I would guess that the baseline would be a bare muzzle, but that is just a guess.
(3) How do you divide your name? Is it "decoded/diesel" or "decod/eddie/sel" or "deco/ded/diesel"? I've wanted to know for some time.
decoded/diesel I guess. It is kind of a play on words from my first call sign from when I first joined the Army.
CarlosDJackal
08-17-10, 09:53
Howard Leight 33s.
Kinda what I figured, not much that can be done. Bummer, I guess I'll have to learn to deal with it.
Wear those inexpensive foam ear plugs underneath and you'll be good to go. I do it at times (except I use the Surefire Defender Plus ear plugs). I also use the MSA/Sordin Supreme X with gel pads and they are awesome!!
Other than that, generally the longer the barrel the less perceived noise the shooter will experience. Shooting a smaller caliber (IE: .22LR or 9mm) with the same barrel length should also help.
Good luck!!
Is it illegal for someone to market a muzzle device that just partially reduces the noise - maybe by half - without it being considered a can? Seems like there would be a huge demand.
It would go a long way to reducing health care costs for those that have "not yet" suffered serious hearing loss. Most young people are too [fill in the blank] to realize that even with good muffs hearing loss is inevitable for a serious trigger puller. Even double plugged around other shooters with brakes is no guarantee.
ETA: Let me rephrase: Is it too much to ask our elected representatives to allow such a device?
ChicagoTex
08-17-10, 12:58
Is it illegal for someone to market a muzzle device that just partially reduces the noise - maybe by half - without it being considered a can?
Yes. If it silences/supresses to ANY degree, it's a silencer/supressor and is therefore an NFA regulated item. That's what these guys keep saying.
1:Shoot an SBR without earpro for a while. Then you won't be able to hear the noise at all any more.
2:Shoot airsoft
3:Shove your tampons in your ears:lol:
I had the same problems. Have had cans for a while have shot them less and less after f'n one up , picked up sordins, they're good when shootin with others but are still a little loud.Especially with sbrs All in all I think the 22 route is best the can on it is super quiet, and cheap.Runnin the sordins and listenin to the ipod is kinda cool though.
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