View Full Version : Better Than Tinker Toys! Turning a VLTOR MUR Into a "DMR"
I did a bit of research, read a few articles and decided to get the VLTOR MUR upper receiver. Originally I was gonna save the scratch for a complete Stealth upper receiver, but I'm a sucker for forged parts. I found one for a reasonable price, whipped out my wallet and bought said VLTOR MUR upper.
However, dopey me forgot to find out if the upper was cut for M4 ramps or not. Before I buy a barrel assy, it's probably a good idea to know!
So- anyone know? I couldn't find the info on the VLTOR site
PS- Anyone know who has the VLTOR EMOD A5s in stock?
ETA- Collecting parts!
I am about 99% certain they do. However, you could call them and get answer definitively.
I did a bit of research, read a few articles and decided to get the VLTOR MUR upper receiver. Originally I was gonna save the scratch for a complete Stealth upper receiver, but I'm a sucker for forged parts. I found one for a reasonable price, whipped out my wallet and bought said VLTOR MUR upper.
However, dopey me forgot to find out if the upper was cut for M4 ramps or not. Before I buy a barrel assy, it's probably a good idea to find out.
So- anyone know? I couldn't find the info on the VLTOR site
PS- Anyone know who has the VLTOR EMOD A5s in stock?
I have a Noveske N4 low pro upper with the MUR upper and it does have M4 Ramps for sure.
I'm not sure if that is unique to Noveske but all three N4 uppers with MUR I have owned in the past have had M4 feed ramps.
yes- the MURs all have m4s.
Both my newer forged version, the late version billet and my old version billet have M4 ramps. Militarymorons has this information readily available.
Thank you very much for the info. If I were to buy a barrel that does NOT have the M4 ramps, it wouldn't be hard to have it done, would it?
I want an accurate 20" rifle from this build that weighs under 9lbs before optics. I like the handling & balance of the 20" and want the ballistic advantage. When I go shorter, it'll be short, with a 14.5" barrel with a pinned flash suppressor.
Anyone have any experience with the Superior Barrels? From what I understand, the Wylde chamber gives good performance. Or can anyone suggest a good middle weight 20" barrel to consider? I'm building what would be a DMR style rifle and able to hit small targets at longish range. Scope will be a 3.5x10 at the minimum.
Boiled down, how would you build a Stealth type with a 20" barrel upper out of the VLTOR MUR?
i'd try to find a barrel that has M4s.. finding a 20 with them might be hard, as far as selection goes. i wouldn't suggest trying to make an M4 barrel extension out of a rifle extension.. getting the slope right might be a crap shoot.. and changing barrel extensions on barrels with gas ports already drilled is basically impossible.
there's some good 18" barrel options with m4s, however, and 18" barrels perform basically the same as 20s.. the only disadvantage is a slight loss in "effective range," meaning fragmentation range.. but do you really anticipate engaging human targets at 600m?
centurion and noveske both make very good 18" barrels with m4 cuts, for instance. BCM too.
otherwise, there are other good stiff receiver options- Sun Devil, for instance, makes a stiff billet without M4 cuts.
food for indecision.
Heheh! Already bought the VLTOR MUR. Just waiting for it to arrive. I really want the 20". I like how they handle. Had a Colt Competition H-Bar with 20" barrel I humped all over the desert for years terrorizing jackrabbits and the occasional prairie dog. I like how they handle. Fast for close shots on running jacks and it hung well for off hand shots. Good performance on small, distant targets.
Are LaRue Stealth barrel assys available separately? Haven't found them anywhere
Biz Kizzle
08-15-10, 13:14
Are LaRue Stealth barrel assys available separately? Haven't found them anywhere
as far as i know you have to buy a whole upper.
Some Larue Stealth barrels don't have M4 cutouts; in fact, do any of the Stealth barrels come with them?
I emailed LaRue and asked them if they sell their Stealth barrels separately. Their answer was no, they only sell them with a complete upper. I didn't ask about their ramps
No need to buy a barrel from Larue--just order the LW50 directly from Lothar Walther US in Georgia.
Thanks! I looked at their website and I'm going to contact them and see how much a barrel configured the way I want it will cost.
I'm also considering a BCM barrel. According to their website all of their barrels have M4 ramps
I've got a line on a new 20" Lothar Walther barrel and I' m seriously thinking of getting it. Also looked at the BCM barrels with the Ion Black but not only are they a bit more (meaning I have to save up longer), they are out of stock. Gave the Kreiger barrel a hard look as well and it too is very tempting.
I have a MagPull UBR coming to me and some MagPull windowed magazines. I still have a few parts to give thought to, such as which bolt carrier to use. What bolt carrier gets your endorsement?
What is the good, bad & ugly about charging handles? I've been looking at the Gas Buster & the Gunfighter. The Gas buster is more expensive but is it better? Or is this a case of "git what you want, you'll be fine!"?
Some Larue Stealth barrels don't have M4 cutouts; in fact, do any of the Stealth barrels come with them?
I don't think Larue Stealth uppers have M4 ramps. However, I've never heard someone who owned one complain about feeding issues or really anything about their uppers either.
What is the good, bad & ugly about charging handles? I've been looking at the Gas Buster & the Gunfighter. The Gas buster is more expensive but is it better? Or is this a case of "git what you want, you'll be fine!"?
if you use a modern support-hand manipulation, you'll want a latch that accommodates that better than standard. i'm really partial to the LMT charging handles- forged alum, perfect latch shape and orientation. the big latches tend to torque on the shank sideways as you yank back, so i recommend against 'em. plus they poke the shit out of you and get caught on everything.
the gunfighters have a good rep.. since i found the LMTs, i haven't experimented, so i have little first-hand 'speriance with 'em.
the gas-busters are really expensive for a charging handle, and pretty much totally useless on a non-suppressed, non-SBR gun.
...the gas-busters are really expensive for a charging handle, and pretty much totally useless on a non-suppressed, non-SBR gun.Thanks for the tip. I don't plan to suppress this rifle any time in the foreseeable future.
Sounds like the big latches are more trouble than they'd be worth for what I want. I'm going to check out the LMT.
Anyone have any tips about bolt carriers?
Anyone have any tips about bolt carriers?
Hello,
You'll find a high quality carrier on the page via. the link.
http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/Colt_AR_15_Parts-4-0.html
I recently built an upper based on a 20" White Oak SDMR barrel. It's got M4 ramps & it's rediculously accurate. My new fav! Rainier Arms stocks them: http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=774.
What is the good, bad & ugly about charging handles? I've been looking at the Gas Buster & the Gunfighter. The Gas buster is more expensive but is it better? Or is this a case of "git what you want, you'll be fine!"?
GasBuster provides gas an escape route off to the side as opposed to straight back into your face. Only a benefit if you are getting gas in the face (suppressed, etc). However, it still has the same weak link as standard charging handles: the roll pin.
Gunfighter is completely redesigned to distribute the stresses across more surface area. If you're going to do one-handed charging, the Gunfighter would be the way to go.
I don't think Larue Stealth uppers have M4 ramps. However, I've never heard someone who owned one complain about feeding issues or really anything about their uppers either.
My understanding is that complete Stealth uppers (with barrel, etc) from Larue do NOT have M4 ramps (and therefore the barrels also do not have M4 ramps).
However, Larue supplied some stripped uppers to suppliers WITH M4 ramps. Clear as mud, eh? :D
My understanding is that complete Stealth uppers (with barrel, etc) from Larue do NOT have M4 ramps (and therefore the barrels also do not have M4 ramps).
However, Larue supplied some stripped uppers to suppliers WITH M4 ramps. Clear as mud, eh? :DYou ain't lyin'. I emailed Superior Barrels and they informed me that there 20" barrels do not have M4 ramps and they do not do custom orders. Then I see they advertise their 20" barrels installed on an M4 upper! From what I understand, M4 uppers have the M4 ramps cut in them.
Sometimes I think I should just get a Stealth upper. The Stealth barrels have all the feature I want- 20" length, LW50 alloy, Wylde chamber, polygonal rifling and the Ion Bond coating. If I could find a barrel with all the above with M4 ramps, at a price I can afford, I'd be happy. For now, I'll keep looking. The Lothar Walther barrel is still high on the list as and I'm looking at a couple others including the White Oak, BCM and Superior Barrel (though with the last, I'd have to get a different upper).
I got my UBR stock and 5 MagPull windowed magazines today, all in FDE. Ordered a MIAD grip, also in FDE.
I like what I'm hearing about Geissele triggers and I think I'll give one a shot.
So far I have
-LRB lower
-VLTOR MUR upper
-Pmags
-UBR
-MagPull aluminum trigger guard
-MIAD grip (ordered today)
What I still need
-Barrel assy w/bolt
-Bolt carrier
-Charging handle
-Muzzle device (want to try the BCE)
-Barrel nut
-Gas tube
-gasblock
-handguards & mounting hardware
-Trigger group
-Safety
-Bolt release
-mag catch
-Recoil spring
-Buffer
-Buffer retainer pin & spring
I know I missed a few things. On the one hand, it's a bit overwhelming trying to collect all these parts. On the other, it's amazing at how few parts there are to the basic rifle
You ain't lyin'. I emailed Superior Barrels and they informed me that there 20" barrels do not have M4 ramps and they do not do custom orders. Then I see they advertise their 20" barrels installed on an M4 upper! From what I understand, M4 uppers have the M4 ramps cut in them.
Sometimes I think I should just get a Stealth upper. The Stealth barrels have all the feature I want- 20" length, LW50 alloy, Wylde chamber, polygonal rifling and the Ion Bond coating. If I could find a barrel with all the above with M4 ramps, at a price I can afford, I'd be happy. For now, I'll keep looking. The Lothar Walther barrel is still high on the list as and I'm looking at a couple others including the White Oak, BCM and Superior Barrel (though with the last, I'd have to get a different upper).
You can't go wrong with any of the barrels listed. From what I understand, Superior Barrels uses Lothar Walther barrels. If they truly are using non-M4 cut barrels installed on an M4 upper, that is bad news--and I can't imagine they are actually configured that way.
What handguard/rail are you planning to use?
I don't have the need for lots of rail space on this rifle. For handguards, I've been looking at the PRI carbon glass, either the round or the triangular style. Or the Troy TRX Extreme Battle Rail. I'd prefer the carbon glass handguard because I think they'll be more comfortable the heat of a desert or during the cold of winter. I'd also like to keep the handguards light.
I'm still learning what's out there, so if anyone would like to suggest other handguards to look at, I'd like to hear it.
One thing I've though about is a rail that sets on top of the receiver and extends out over the handguard, like the one VLTOR makes available for the MUR so I can push the scope forward enough to get good eye relief. Those mounts that use a sort of gooseneck set up don't look very stable or strong
One thing I've though about is a rail that sets on top of the receiver and extends out over the handguard, like the one VLTOR makes available for the MUR so I can push the scope forward enough to get good eye relief. Those mounts that use a sort of gooseneck set up don't look very stable or strong
The extended scope mounts that Larue makes are plenty strong--and battle tested. There is no flex to them whatsoever.
The extended scope mounts that Larue makes are plenty strong--and battle tested. There is no flex to them whatsoever.I know they are battle tested and I'm sure they are strong. No flex? That's impossible. Everything has flex. Maybe they're stiff enough, but mounts that are attached at both ends have less flex and damp vibrations better. The technician in me would be much happier not mounting a scope on the tine of a tuning fork :)
Here is a pic of what I have so far. I don't have PhotoShop on this comp so I wasn't able to correct the color. Look at that! I also got a couple of stickers!
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/ProjectAR.jpg
Here's a pic of my previous rifle. It's a Colt Competition H-Bar I've had for about 15 years. Shoots good. I wanted to remove the front sight so it wouldn't be visible in the scope. Yes, the front sight showed up faint & fuzzy in the scope and made it difficult to place the cross hairs precisely. Rather than modify this rifle, I decided to build another. I'll miss the H-Bar, but it's going to give a fine young man a good introduction to ARs
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/Liberty/056.jpg
I know they are battle tested and I'm sure they are strong. No flex? That's impossible. Everything has flex. Maybe they're stiff enough, but mounts that are attached at both ends have less flex and damp vibrations better. The technician in me would be much happier not mounting a scope on the tine of a tuning fork :)
If you want everything taken literally, then every conversation will be needlessly long.
"Mounts that are attached at both ends have less flex and damp vibrations better"--to what practical end do you wish to compare this? Do you actually think the Larue scope mounts have 'flex and vibrations' to the extent that you would ever notice them?
Do you honestly think you would ever be able to tell the difference in 'flex and vibrations' between a Larue cantilevered mount vs. one that is non-cantilevered, from a shooting perspective? A solid billet scope mount may have less physical 'flex and vibrations', but wouldn't gain you anything from a practical standpoint--at least for anything you would shoot from an AR platform.
You're asking questions, but not listening to answers: a high-quality cantilevered scope mount will provide as solid a mount as any other.
If you want everything taken literally, then every conversation will be needlessly long.
"Mounts that are attached at both ends have less flex and damp vibrations better"--to what practical end do you wish to compare this? Do you actually think the Larue scope mounts have 'flex and vibrations' to the extent that you would ever notice them?
Do you honestly think you would ever be able to tell the difference in 'flex and vibrations' between a Larue cantilevered mount vs. one that is non-cantilevered, from a shooting perspective? A solid billet scope mount may have less physical 'flex and vibrations', but wouldn't gain you anything from a practical standpoint--at least for anything you would shoot from an AR platform.
You're asking questions, but not listening to answers: a high-quality cantilevered scope mount will provide as solid a mount as any other.
I didn't say cantilever mounts don't work. However, they way they are designed, they will flex and they will vibrate more than a mount fixed at both ends, both conditions the enemy of optics. The cantilever design also has increased arm & moment which places more stress on the mount and offers less protection to the scope from impacts. I may not be able to tell the difference when shooting. But I wonder if my scope can in long term reliability.
As a Airframe & Powerplant Technician, when I design a repair to an aircraft, I have to ensure the design doesn't have flaws that will cause a failure later.
Just because I have a different point of view or question a statement does not mean I don't listen.
I don't want to have an argument. I'd like to continue asking question and be able to discuss the answers as I build this rifle
I didn't say cantilever mounts don't work. However, they way they are designed, they will flex and they will vibrate more than a mount fixed at both ends, both conditions the enemy of optics. The cantilever design also has increased arm & moment which places more stress on the mount and offers less protection to the scope from impacts. I may not be able to tell the difference when shooting. But I wonder if my scope can in long term reliability.
I don't want to have an argument. I'd like to continue asking question and be able to discuss the answers as I build this rifle
I can appreciate your keeping an open mind. Think of it this way: the greater enemy to a scope beyond 'flex and vibration' is the rapid acceleration experienced when the round is fired. (Which, BTW, is a non-issue for any quality scope--this is why you don't put a scope designed for .22LR onto a .50 BMG)
To satisfy your technical craving (legit, certainly, but let's keep our eyes on the bigger picture i.e. practical functionality vs. measurable 'flex and vibration'), any 'flex and vibration' will actual dampen the high-G acceleration experienced by the scope.
So theoretically, as long as a cantilevered scope mount returns to its original position (as all high-quality ones do), you should see the cantilever design as superior in accordance to your argument/concerns above.
I by no means claim that the above is actually a practical, real-world advantage of a cantilever scope design, but it should assuage your concerns in terms of what you perceive to be a shortcoming.
I ordered a bunch of pins, springs, levers & buttons, including a carbine buffer spring & carbine buffer for the lower receiver. The only thing left to get is a trigger group from Geissele. That should finish the lower.
Originally, I worked up an order for each part individually, including bolt release, safety and mag catch without trigger & grip. That came out to nearly $140! Digging further, I found they had all the parts I needed with the exception of the buffer & buffer spring for under $50. With buffer & spring and shipping, it came out to less than $70. Much better!
I want a good trigger for this rifle and a good trigger should get good trigger pins. I don't know if the Geissele will come with pins, but I found the anti-rotation pins made by KNS. I don't know if they are necessary or if I can justify their cost. They are supposed to work well, they look good and they also fall under the "Rule of Cool".
http://www.knsprecisioninc.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/nrthpmod2.jpg
I ordered them in FDE to go with the stock & MIAD I'm waiting delivery on.
STILL TO COME- The Upper: Build the VLTOR MUR or Buy a Stealth?
I've been looking at bolt carriers. From what I understand, the full auto carrier is preferred. Still, there are different options that add to the cost. Are the options worth it?
LMT sells a standard full auto carrier and an enhanced version that's supposed to increase bolt dwell time. I'm not sure how, unless the cam keyway is a bit longer in the straight section. The claim is that the increased bolt dwell time lets pressures drop off even more for improved extraction. Theory makes sense but how well does it work in practice?
Another option I've run across is the National Match bolt carrier. It's dimensioned so the front of the carrier fits with closer tolerances. The idea is that taking out some of the play in this area will improve accuracy and with a larger contact area, reduce battering. Again, the theory makes sense but how well does it work in practice? Will the tighter tolerances reduce reliability? Will the rifle be more susceptible to jamming from fouling?
They have bolt carriers covered with every miracle coating you can think of- hard chrome, ion bond, titanium nitride, and something the maker claims is self lubricating. Do any of them work as advertised? Are they worth the extra money? I saw one bolt carrier that the seller claims is a hard chromed enhanced national match carrier but did not list the maker.
One was selling a hard chromed national match carrier made by SEI. When I went to the Smith Enterprises website, I could find nothing about it, not even so much as "yep, we offer bolt carriers for sale". Anyone know anything about it? Would I be better served with a simple, milspec carrier from a quality manufacturer rather than worrying about "pimping my carrier"? Will John tell Marsha he bought a new carbine? Will Marsha banish John to the DogHouse or demand a "Hers" carbine done in lavender?
Order the BCM GunFighter CH and do the RTV gasbusting treatment and be done with the CH part.....Look up 03design if not already familiar with the RTV trick----it's an old highpower trick
The parts I ordered arrived this last week, springs, buttons, levers & pins along with the buffer spring & buffer and grip. Picture to follow when my camera charges.
The lower is assembled with the exception of the trigger group. The A2 grip has always been too skinny for me and the finger groove uncomfortable. The MIAD with the thickest backstrap is the most comfortable AR grip for my hands I've tried so far. The only front strap sent with the grip was the one with the finger groove & trigger guard. I contacted the shop & they are sending the rest of the parts. When they do, I'll swap out the finger groove/trigger guard front strap for a plain one and install the Magpull aluminum trigger guard.
When I can afford it, I'll order a trigger group. I'm leaning strongly towards the Geissele.
Assembly was straight forward. I did booger up the finish a little installing the bolt lever. I think I've got it figured out so it doesn't happen with the next lower I assemble. Is there a press the factories professionals use?
Does anyone have experience with DEZ barrels? I'm looking at a 20" HBar Match barrel with a 5.56 chamber they offer made from 4150 CMV steel. It's not chrome lined. The price is good, around $170, about $130 less than than what I've seen a Lothar Walther going for. How well do the DEZ Arms match barrels shoot?
Arise from the grave, O Necrotic Thread- I command thee Arise!
I started this thread when I began collecting parts to assemble my precision AR. Blessed Bovine of Divinity, was I ever all over the map! I cannot believe I bought KNS trigger pins! (Ended up giving them away.) I owe everyone a special thanks for all the time and patience in answering my questions.
In any case, the rifle turned out well. Just needs a better sling, better scope mounting and I want to replace the Leupold 10x with a variable
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n289/SgtSongDog/AR%20Build/DSC_0196.jpg
The hardest lesson for me to learn was that I didn't know what I didn't know. I think that still applies.
Thanks to everyone who has put up with me since I started posting, for all the help given and for sharing your knowledge & experience
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