View Full Version : The need for Home Defense Training
This Saturday, myself and Sgt. Watson (T-County SO head firearms instructor) taught basic one man CQB to a church security team. The majority of the shooters have been attending our defensive pistol training for the last 1.5yrs. They are authorized to carry concealed in the church, have their State issued CCW, pass the Ohio LE qualification exam every year. They are all good shooters and far exceed the shooting capability of the majority of the LE in my county.
None of them have had any real live fire experience in a building environment.
The shoot house was nothing more than a simple "barrel house" which means that it wasn't anything complex or hard (like one would find at Blackwater).
The reason for the background info on the shooters and description of the shoot house is to make sure that readers realize that the shooters were not some village idiot picked up off the street and that the shoot house was not anything exotic (read very basic).
The first time through the house, the shooters were given ZERO instructions. They were just told that there were armed bad guys in the house and they needed to deal with them (using at least 2rds and preferably 4rds). All targets in the house were shoots (no decision targets were used at this time).
The problems encountered:
1. Poor decision making ability.
2. Poor/no pieing knowledge.
3. Poor use of cover.
4. Poor accuracy /thrown rounds off target (max shot was 21ft).
5. Most shots placed were not in "A" zones.
6. Seeing part of a target through a doorway and leaving that unknown target to look for another one (instead of dealing with that one).
7. Clearing rooms with finger on the trigger.
After everyone had gone through, we explained all the errors witnessed and how to do it the right way.
Second run had new targets put up. These are what I call "decision making targets". Targets are full color, life size, and at least one person in the target has a weapon (lot of hostage targets).
Shooters again entered the barrel house one at a time.
Problems encountered:
1. Slow decision making ability (long periods of time spent on trying to identify who the threat was while exposing themselves to the threat).
2. Rounds fired into a room (clearing it), then backing out of the room (instead of entering it).
3. Moderate use of cover.
4. Poor accuracy /thrown rounds off target (max shot was 21ft).
5. Most shots placed were ineffective hits.
6. Most shooters shot just 2rds. One shot was typically a "C" zone hit with the other round put on the bad guys weapon hand.
7. Hostages shot (on purpose).
8. Clearing corners with finger on the trigger.
9. Crowding walls.
10. Not seeking cover during a tactical or emergency reload.
One of the things that combat veteran instructors always teach is that they only way you will know that your gun is empty is because it will stop making loud noises.
In one instance, a shooter ran out of ammo and the weapon was in slide lock. He started to pie a corner, raised his gun to the threat and realized that he had no BB's in his BB slinger.
I think it should be MANDATORY for folks that have a CCW or plan on using a firearm in the defense of their home to do some CQB based training. It is such an eye opening experience for people and they would benefit GREATLY from it.
This thread's purpose was to open some eyes, have people think about what they don't know and discuss the subject a little. Please feel free to share info and ask questions.
C4
Jay Cunningham
08-16-10, 10:30
I think it should MANDATORY for folks that have a CCW or plan on using a firearm in their home defense to do some CQB based training. It is such an eye opening experience for people and they would benefit GREATLY from it.
NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home is a very good curriculum for average citizens with the end goal usually to retreat to a safe room and call 911 (which is usually the right thing to do). It offers some advice on using cover and concealment, but not CQB per se.
As far as "CQB" being mandatory training, I would be hesitant to agree simply due to what the qualifications might be for the instructor certification (and who does the certifying).
So who gets to teach CQB to the average citizen? And in which facilities?
In theory I agree with you, Grant.
pilotguyo540
08-16-10, 10:37
Thanks for this post. It really shows how much us average joes could learn. While I don't have anything constructive to add, I would love to fly out and attend a course or two in the future. I think it would be worth the airfare (frequent flier miles :D )
NRA Personal Protection Inside the Home is a very good curriculum for average citizens with the end goal usually to retreat to a safe room and call 911 (which is usually the right thing to do). It offers some advice on using cover and concealment, but not CQB per se.
As far as "CQB" being mandatory training, I would be hesitant to agree simply due to what the qualifications might be for the instructor certification (and who does the certifying).
So who gets to teach CQB to the average citizen? And in which facilities?
In theory I agree with you, Grant.
All good points. I have read the course for the NRA HD cert and have two local NRA instructors that teach it. I think it is a good starting point AND do agree that the BEST thing to do is to barricade yourself into a room, call 911, point gun at the door and wait it out.
Where we get into problems with the above thought process is:
1. There are children between the parents and the bad guy.
2. You are not in your home (grocery store, mall, church, etc) and have to deal with the problem.
When I say "CQB" I am not talking about 2-4 man clears (dynamic/offensive). I am talking about 1 man, slow (defensive) clearing.
The problem right now is that the majority of the instructors that can, will and have the facilities to teach "home defense" either don't do it, do it once a year or don't let Civy's in. You and I are fortunate to have contact with two of the BEST CQB instructors in the world and can get into any class they teach on the subject. A lot of people do not get that option.
As I have learned, LE and Ex-Mil are hesitant to teach this subject for fear of what their peers will think of them. I think that this keeps a lot of the other good instructors out there (which are qualified to teach the subject) from doing it. Then we get into the problem of training facilities. Most are controlled by an LE agency (federal or state) and do NOT allow Civy's into them.
In regards to who is qualified to teach what, I would say that the shooter needs to choose the option that best fits their needs. For instance, if you are are active duty and kick doors in for the Military in IZ, then I would seek out a CQB instructor that has a lot of .Mil experience (like Vickers/Hackathorn). If you are LE (SWAT), then I would seek out a LE instructor or even a .Mil one (though they do some stuff differently and some things might not apply). For civy's, any of the above options would be great (if you can get into a class). These classes are few and far between and cost a lot of coin. This puts off most civy's and hinders their ability to train on the subject.
One of the things that concerns me with noob shooters attending a "home defense" class, is that they might be trying to walk before they can crawl. I then think about the fact that people believe that FAT people should be spending their time losing weight VS learning how to shoot in a class.
I think it is a good idea to know how to enter and exit rooms, hallways and doorways ALONG with working on ones accuracy and all the fundamentals.
C4
Any pictures or videos to go with this Grant? Just curious, mainly to see the basic set up you were using and also possible mistakes that others could learn from.
Thanks for this post. It really shows how much us average joes could learn. While I don't have anything constructive to add, I would love to fly out and attend a course or two in the future. I think it would be worth the airfare (frequent flier miles :D )
I think what most people realize and don't think about or just don't realize is that the response time to a 911 call might be 20-30 minutes (like it is for me in Rural Ohio). That is a REALLY LONG TIME to have to deal with a nut job that is trying to kill myself and my family. I personally like the fact that I have a lot of HD based training (especially in the dark) and feel confident that I can "fix" the problem better than my local SO can. Being self reliant is good thing.
We will be putting together a "home defense" class with Mr. Hackathorn in October (in Ohio).
C4
Any pictures or videos to go with this Grant? Just curious, mainly to see the basic set up you were using and also possible mistakes that others could learn from.
Since this was for a local Church security team, no pics or video (sorry).
The house was in the form of a letter "H." It had an opening at the front and three barrels (8ft high) in the middle. The shooter entered the first room and dealt with any threats and then had to pie the right side and left side of the middle wall (that was open on either end).
The majority of the shots taken were under 8-10ft. If I would have said to any of the guys that went through the house that they would throw a round off a human sized target at 8-10ft, they would have called me a name.
We humans do not do well when we get suprised (by a none moving, none shooting back, paper target).
For pics and vids of the last Vickers Tactical HD class, check out this thread: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=58026
C4
Failure2Stop
08-16-10, 11:12
I know that I am VERY hesitant to teach single-man clearing.
Since this was for a local Church security team, no pics or video (sorry).
Thanks for the additional info... which I was in Ohio to train with you.
I know that I am VERY hesitant to teach single-man clearing.
What are your reasons why? I'm just curious to hear from one of our SME's on what their reservations would be. Thanks.
I know that I am VERY hesitant to teach single-man clearing.
Your statement is the norm/common.
A well known instructor and I were talking about teaching (HD) to Civy's. This instructor said that he had has received heat from his fellow instructors over doing it. His comment to them was that Civy's have the right to defend themselves in their home and out in the street under the 2A.
C4
Grant, you're talking about extremely restricted training that the overwhelming majority of forum participants will never be able to attend.
What are folks supposed to take away from this thread? How high-speed you guys are now? :D
Calling CQB training mandatory when such training is nearly nonexistent to civilians... what solution do you propose other than reading in awe?
Grant, you're talking about extremely restricted training that the overwhelming majority of forum participants will never be able to attend.
What are folks supposed to take away from this thread? How high-speed you guys are now? :D
Calling CQB training mandatory when such training is nearly nonexistent to civilians... what solution do you propose other than reading in awe?
Totally agree. The words HS and me don't go together (by the way). :jester:
For solutions, we are going to do our best to get Mr. Hackathorn to teach at least 3 HD classes a year for long as we can. We will also continue to push Mr. Vickers to teach more than one class a year on the subject.
We (Sgt. Watson and myself) are also going to start teaching BASIC HD classes in Ohio the coming months. The goal is get folks up to speed so that they can get vouched for and have the opportunity to train with Ken or LAV.
C4
NCPatrolAR
08-16-10, 11:38
Grant, you're talking about extremely restricted training that the overwhelming majority of forum participants will never be able to attend.
What are folks supposed to take away from this thread? How high-speed you guys are now? :D
Calling CQB training mandatory when such training is nearly nonexistent to civilians... what solution do you propose other than reading in awe?
There are several companies/people now offering/about to start offering the type of home defense courses Grant is talking about.
The problem with more instructors entering the market is going to be finding out who to train with and who to go running away from.
What are your reasons why? I'm just curious to hear from one of our SME's on what their reservations would be. Thanks.
I won't assume what F2S's reason is, but I can tell you that most folks from his background are afraid to do it. Why? Because imagine teaching someone how to clear a building and then have that person go out and use that info to kill LE or people.
A couple years ago, I played bad guy for a local SWAT team. At that point, I didn't have half the training I now have in HD type stuff. With what knowledge I did have, I cut them down. In most cases they lost 50% to their entire team.
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that they thought it was a bad idea for me to have the training I did (as I knew what they were going to try and do before they did it). I created ambush points, funnels, choke points and put them in bad positions where they could not win.
C4
There are several companies/people now offering/about to start offering the type of home defense courses Grant is talking about.
The problem with more instructors entering the market is going to be finding out who to train with and who to go running away from.
Does the training company you work with offer such courses?
I think a course that taught CCW based concepts, accuracy fundamentals and a some HD tactics would be a win win thing.
C4
Jay Cunningham
08-16-10, 11:44
For my part, I am now acting as Training Coordinator at Beaver Valley Rifle and Pistol Club (http://bvrpc.org/basic%20pistol.html). There is a large cadre of NRA instructors who teach Basic Pistol. A small group (including myself) have received our cert in Personal Protection Inside the Home.
Since I have a say in how this program will go forward, all of the instructors for PPIH will be required to have additional experience and training outside of the NRA to give them some depth of knowledge when they are presenting the NRA curriculum (which is rather well done.)
When students successfuly pass this course, I intend to present them with some additional opportunities outside the NRA.
One-man clearing inside a structure is truly a scenario where the phrase "gun games will get you killed" is pretty much dead-on... no pun intended.
Complication
08-16-10, 11:47
Grant, you're talking about extremely restricted training that the overwhelming majority of forum participants will never be able to attend.
What are folks supposed to take away from this thread? How high-speed you guys are now? :D
Calling CQB training mandatory when such training is nearly nonexistent to civilians... what solution do you propose other than reading in awe?
Well, for one, he's talking about WHY this training is extremely restricted and WHY no one will ever be able to attend. If you had somewhat better reading comprehension, you would realize the points of this thread are:
1) This is training which (at least in simplified forms) the average civilian firearms owner could benefit greatly from.
2) The people qualified to teach this stuff (even in greatly simplified form) tend to be very hesitant for what seem like silly reasons (other people in the industry might call me names behind their back) but also for legitimate reasons (SWAT teams don't want to serve high-risk warrants to BGs trained in CQB fighting).
What we're supposed to take away from this tread (and if you take even the most cursory look, you'll see Grant actually said this) is that Grant has found that there are people out there who should know this stuff, who can greatly benefit from this stuff, but, as you so expertly pointed out, have almost no opportunity to do so.
Grant has made the same conclusion about firearms manipulation/defensive shooting classes and been teaching one for FREE twice a month out here in NE/Central OH (and, it turns out, he knows a thing or two about guns). He's also putting together a $50 one-day home-defense-style class like he's talking about and opening it up to 10 folks from the area before he goes all out and begins offering somewhat more regular, civilian-friendly 2-day classes of the same variety. (On second thought, you're right--Grant's totally a high-speed elitist showoff trying to make us feel bad about our shooting skills, you should definitely pass on any classes he might be able to offer you.)
What have you done for the firearms community today?
Jay Cunningham
08-16-10, 11:50
Complication, please throttle it back a little. Vinh and Grant know each other pretty well.
NCPatrolAR
08-16-10, 11:58
Does the training company you work with offer such courses?
we are looking at starting them up in 1st quarter 2011 now that we have a place to conduct live-fire training. Before we were limited to just airsoft locations and felt the training value wouldn't be as great.
I think a course that taught CCW based concepts, accuracy fundamentals and a some HD tactics would be a win win thing.
indeed it should.
One of the greatest hurdles is making sure the right people are getting into the class. For us; setting up a series of prereq's is an absolute must and is almost as hard as finding a place to teach the course.
Complication
08-16-10, 12:01
My apologies. The suggestion that Grant's post was bragging about elite high speed stuff that he and his buddies were doing struck me as a bit asinine.
Also haven't had my coffee yet.
we are looking at starting them up in 1st quarter 2011 now that we have a place to conduct live-fire training. Before we were limited to just airsoft locations and felt the training value wouldn't be as great.
indeed it should.
One of the greatest hurdles is making sure the right people are getting into the class. For us; setting up a series of prereq's is an absolute must and is almost as hard as finding a place to teach the course.
Good. Understanding about screening folks (as you are all LE).
For a shoot house, using barrels or snow fence works fairly well (for basic type stuff) and can be moved/torn down quickly.
C4
My apologies. The suggestion that Grant's post was bragging about elite high speed stuff that he and his buddies were doing struck me as a bit asinine.
Also haven't had my coffee yet.
No worries. We are all trying to go the same direction and fix the same issues.
C4
As I have learned, LE and Ex-Mil are hesitant to teach this subject for fear of what their peers will think of them. I think that this keeps a lot of the other good instructors out there (which are qualified to teach the subject) from doing it. Then we get into the problem of training facilities. Most are controlled by an LE agency (federal or state) and do NOT allow Civy's into them.
I read the title of the thread and immediately thought of the above. Most are shy about teaching tactics vs shooting. This is something that I need/want to learn because of the layout of my home if someone enters "without permission" they're going to end up being between me and my kids (if the threat isn't already in their room *shudder*)no matter what which leaves me not wanting to take a defensive position but aggressively (offensively?) seeking out and dealing with the threat RFN!
The words HS and me don't go together (by the way). :jester:
Don't know about that. Saw a vid of you shooting steel with an M&P45. Very nice. :happy:
NCPatrolAR
08-16-10, 12:44
Good. Understanding about screening folks (as you are all LE).
For us, we are looking at experience level and criminal background. The former isn't always a good indicator of course performance (as we all have seen) while the latter keeps some away (fear of the man in their life or not feeling they need to prove they aren't a criminal).
For a shoot house, using barrels or snow fence works fairly well (for basic type stuff) and can be moved/torn down quickly.
Scott Reitz showed me this several years ago in a carbine course. Amazing what you can do with some drums, barricades, and sticks
RogerinTPA
08-16-10, 12:48
This weekend I attended a home defense course.
Home invasion scenario:
You are sitting in your living room when the lights dim or go out, followed by a crash, then BGs enter your home.
Topics covered were:
-Knowing the layout of your home.
-Low light shooting.
-Shooting on the move (to get to cover and to engage other hostiles).
-Multiple threats at various distances and various interval movement (using electric programmable target carriers) .
-Proper use of cover.
-Shooting until the threat stops.
-Search and Asses the area for more BGs.
It was an eye opener to see pretty experienced static range shooters I see so often on the range, miss completely, stand by the cover while completely exposing themselves. Not taking time to do tactical reloads to top off the weapon, opting for emergency reloads, then fumbling and losing fully loaded mags. Not searching and assessing the area for more BGs. Two were IDPA guys.:rolleyes:
I ran the scenario twice using my M&P9c with and without the laser. I was able to get good center mass hits with the Henie 2 dot sights, with a few non lethal fliers, while moving to cover. The laser kept them right where I wanted them to go, center mass. I'm convinced while under stress, having a laser & light equipped pistol is the way to go. Time to order a few more CT lasers.;)
Don't know about that. Saw a vid of you shooting steel with an M&P45. Very nice. :happy:
It really wasn't me. Was a guy that just looked like me. :dirol:
C4
the first time I went into an unknown problem and had to deal with a structure/decision making/ interact/verbailize with targets...... well, it wasnt pretty. And my little bit of ego I thought I had fell flat. That was a good thing.
I practiced, I studied, I thought about the problems a lot.
The second time I entered a "simulator" in a class, well, it still wasnt perfect, but it was much better.
"Tactics I" is an in house class hosted by The FIRE Institute that deals with the issue of structures, real life civvy problems, dealing with real time problem solving, ect ect ect... all the basics. Its a great course, and its cheap. It was canceled this year for lack of enrollment. The problem seems to be that the intructor cadre just arent cool enough, dont market well, dont do this for a living and so arent concerned with image or personalities, like old school gun handling techniques (which has no real impact on this class as its not a shooting class) and while the local area (PA) may host a HUGE number of gun owners those guys just arent generally interested in training.
Problem I personally deal with now in this enviroment:
Patience
Looking back into the back corners (a note on gun games, which I find very useful, is that you can get very used to NEVER having anything back behind the 180....)
Making the right decisions fast enough (hesitation)
This weekend I attended a home defense course.
Home invasion scenario:
You are sitting in your living room when the lights dim or go out, followed by a crash, then BGs enter your home.
Topics covered were:
-Knowing the layout of your home.
-Low light shooting.
-Shooting on the move (to get to cover and to engage other hostiles).
-Multiple threats at various distances and various interval movement (using electric programmable target carriers) .
-Proper use of cover.
-Shooting until the threat stops.
-Search and Asses the area for more BGs.
It was an eye opener to see pretty experienced static range shooters I see so often on the range, miss completely, stand by the cover while completely exposing themselves. Not taking time to do tactical reloads to top off the weapon, opting for emergency reloads, then fumbling and losing fully loaded mags. Not searching and assessing the area for more BGs. Two were IDPA guys.:rolleyes:
I ran the scenario twice using my M&P9c with and without the laser. I was able to get good center mass hits with the Henie 2 dot sights, with a few non lethal fliers, while moving to cover. The laser kept them right where I wanted them to go, center mass. I'm convinced while under stress, having a laser & light equipped pistol is the way to go. Time to order a few more CT lasers.;)
I have seen HSLD types (what I consider to be "been there and done that") types totally screw the pooch. Along with LE SWAT, civy's that run circles around me, and everything in between totally shut down and make mistakes. This is why I think it is SOOOOO important to get folks exposed to this stuff.
Lasers on pistols are like optics on a long gun. They are another MUST HAVE on a defensive pistol.
C4
Problem I personally deal with now in this enviroment:
Patience
Looking back into the back corners (a note on gun games, which I find very useful, is that you can get very used to NEVER having anything back behind the 180....)
Making the right decisions fast enough (hesitation)
Corners are death and people never check them.
(HD) is about making life altering decision on the fly. You must be able to constantly alter you plan and overcome obstacles. All the while SEARCHING for someone that is trying to kill you.
I have seen more than my fair share of folks come out of a shoot house (with paper targets as bad guys) hyper ventilating and white as a ghost. This type of work isn't for everyone, but everyone should know it.
C4
Failure2Stop
08-16-10, 13:57
What are your reasons why? I'm just curious to hear from one of our SME's on what their reservations would be. Thanks.
Sorry, my post was pretty vague, but was more to reinforce Grant's observation that Team-Based CQB guys tend to be hesitant to teach individual CQB.
My reasons-
CQB with trained, experienced, fit, motivated, and disciplined teams can get shredded by a lucky or skilled adversary that does not have to worry about securing his own immediate environment. With a team I have options and security to deal with that possibility that are not open to a single man clear.
My experience with single-man clearing is for extreme cases of necessity or where no other option exists. It's very hard to do even moderatly well unless you know where (specific room/have a safe back) the threat is and know the layout. Entering the room is very different than a normal team-based entry because the shooter won't be able to hold the strongwall by himself. Like I have said before, it is possible to place objects within the room to greatly reduce risk, but that risk is not something I would recommend others to take unless control of that enclosure is absolutely essential.
The probability of engaging without full ID is very high due to the stress level associated with going in alone.
As if that isn't enough, a bad guy with a death-wish could cause a lot of damage on his way down. While it is a valid point, a badguy could also cause a lot of trouble if he bunkers down as generally taught in home-defense courses. Still, if I was dealing with the situation I would rather have the guy stationary over moving from room to room.
More reason: I have pretty significant experience in evaluating, teaching, and conducting team-based CQB, with successful real-world application. My experience in the same for individual application is far less, and it's success is more linked to intuition and luck than tactics or skill.
Should one of my students wind up hurt or hurting an innocent after my training I would have significant moral and legal issues.
NCPatrolAR
08-16-10, 14:06
Should one of my students wind up hurt or hurting an innocent after my training I would have significant moral and legal issues.
Do you feel this is a greater risk than teaching a pure shooting course to the private sector?
Do you feel this is a greater risk than teaching a pure shooting course to the private sector?
Good question.
More reason: I have pretty significant experience in evaluating, teaching, and conducting team-based CQB, with successful real-world application. My experience in the same for individual application is far less, and it's success is more linked to intuition and luck than tactics or skill.
This is a good point. When I talk about single man clears, I try and compare it to hunting. When searching for a threat, you need to look, listen and be quiet. Intuition, common sense and knowledge of ones house goes a long way.
C4
Failure2Stop
08-16-10, 16:30
Do you feel this is a greater risk than teaching a pure shooting course to the private sector?
It isn't like I sat down and figured all the skills I was willing to teach and the pros and cons of each, simply stating my gut reaction to the thought of teaching single-man enclosure clearing. As it is, I teach and evaluate that which is requested, to those that have a definite need to know. Please do not take that to mean that only those students have a need to know, simply that my choice is made for me by the powers that be.
I agree that there is risk involved with all those activities involving the interpersonal use of firearms, but the point at which I find myself telling someone how to go in is a distinct departure from teaching someone how to get out.
I am in no way saying that the skill shouldn't be taught, I guess what I am really getting at is that the first part of my class would be a lengthy explaination about risk acceptance based on potential outcome.
My reasons-
Thank you for your response. My reasons for taking this type of class, and being involved in this type of discussion, is purely for the sake of defending myself and my family in the unlikely event that someone were to break in to our home.
We have our game plan as far as retreating to what's considered to be our "safe room" for the rest of my family and my job is to protect that room. I have no grandiose ideas of being a one man ninja SWAT team :ph34r: clearing houses & buildings by myself but am interested in at least getting some basic instruction and practical exercises to go along with it.
I've only had to "clear" our house once by myself, and luckily it was nothing, but the pucker factor was through the roof. No internet bravado here, my pulse was hammering, palms sweating, muscles tensed and my spidey sense was going off to beat the band. I'd simply like the additional training to deal with things that go bump in the night but that don't warrant wasting the police's time. Our first lines of defense, which I recommend to everyone, are our alarm system and a psychotic Boxer and if those lines of defense are breached then it's game time.
Failure2Stop
08-16-10, 19:35
Rereading my posts has caused me to want to clarify my position.
1- If you have a potential need to clear enclosures alone, you should seek professional training.
2- Most of the people teaching CQB (myself included) come from a team-based background, which is not the same thing.
3- Find someone that knows what they are doing and can clearly communicate the reasons.
4- I would want a lot more experince before I put the shingle out for single-man clearing instruction.
1- If you have a potential need to clear enclosures alone, you should seek professional training.
2- Most of the people teaching CQB (myself included) come from a team-based background, which is not the same thing.
Is there anyone out there you might suggest, or is that a question that you would feel more comfortable not answering? (coming from someone new to the game trying to get a few classes in ASAP)
4- I would want a lot more experince before I put the shingle out for single-man clearing instruction.
A very respectable position that some wouldnt make.
John_Wayne777
08-16-10, 20:04
An eminently sane position, F2S.
My contribution would be this:
The fact that you have done the CQB thing at a high level and that you realize there's a difference between life in a stack and life by your loneseome means that you're better suited than most to understand the challenges posed and to think your way through them based on having seen what you've seen bad guys do.
If the instructor/school is doing it's due diligence to ask students for a concealed pistol license or a criminal history report is the perception of liability in this arena real or imagined?
I can't imagine a driving school getting sued for a speeding student or a flying school getting sued if one of their students went kamikaze. Is there any legal precedent for an instructor being sued after accidental or deliberate misuse of their training by a student?
RogerinTPA
08-16-10, 21:02
If the instructor/school is doing it's due diligence to ask students for a concealed pistol license or a criminal history report is the perception of liability in this arena real or imagined?
I can't imagine a driving school getting sued for a speeding student or a flying school getting sued if one of their students went kamikaze. Is there any legal precedent for an instructor being sued after accidental or deliberate misuse of their training by a student?
Agreed. All of the advanced shooting courses I've attended required a current CCW Permit, US Citizenship, as well as a signed liability questionnaire, which vets the student as far as criminal background is concerned, while insulating the instructor from that enrollment liability.
If the instructor is teaching valid information that is sound, practical and safe, he/she should have no worries being held accountable for what the student does with that information after the fact, unless of course the instruction is on car jacking or bank heists. The instructor, outside the class room/range environment, is not responsible for a former student's mental state or lack of judgment.
okay.. neven had any experienced when it comes to Home Defense CQB. I was only trained once by a former marine while using an airsoft gun. Pretty much he taught me the basic fundamentals of clearing a room or hallway of a house.
Here's my situation: I have a 2 young boys and each has it's own room. I have an alarm system and a small loud pomeranian. If i have a choice i would barricade myself with my wife in our safe zone, call 911 and wait for the police to arrived if an intruder will home invade our household. However, if circumstances dictates that i have no other choice but to retrieve my kids prior to barricading ourselves and that prompted me to train on some basic CQB and house clearing.
Just having fun at the range with my buddies while practicing CQB/house clearing or whatever you call it.. :lol:
we increase our stress level by running 300 feet x 4 the 10 times of burpee and then directly engage the bad guys. :suicide2:
here's a small clip and feel free to correct my mistakes.. :shout: :D
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7136807@N05/4900161724/
FWIW- I have had some CQB training back in '04 out at BW. All of it was team based. I consider myself pretty savvy when it comes to tactics. We also did some CQB/ clearing stuff in the Surefire low-light instructors course.
Having said all of that I still wouldn't feel comfortable clearing my own house by myself, though my first instinct would be to do so if something happened. Unless I was absolutely compelled I would hunker down, and wait for the police to arrive.
If I were coming home and saw something amiss I would call 911 and do the same. There are so many things that can go wrong and so many deadpspots that can't be covered.
NCPatrolAR
08-17-10, 07:38
While some elements of clearing a structure will be shared across the spectrum; I think there are specific things that need to be addressed when we look at non-mil/le application of the material. I view the topic as being difficult; but not near impossible. This is probably due to my LE-expereince and the fact that we are clearing structures with only 2 people in most cases.
Any instructor that is teaching a course such as this should be making it a point that the material should be used only during the most extreme of cases; not as the default option. Other things than need to be stressed is the overall danger of the solo clear, general statutes covering lethal force (general ideals and specific for that state), decision making, target hardening (Jay spoke of this before), and interacting with responding law enforcement.
As mentioned; the NRA's Personal Protection Inisde the Home course is a good starting point for people interested in this type of training. While their material is far from perfect; it does have a great deal of good ideas contained in the lesson plan. Another stepping stone to a home defense course would be the NRA's Personal Protection Outside of the Home course.
Knowledge is never a bad thing (even if you will most likely never need it).
C4
/this
Rereading my posts has caused me to want to clarify my position.
1- If you have a potential need to clear enclosures alone, you should seek professional training.
2- Most of the people teaching CQB (myself included) come from a team-based background, which is not the same thing.
3- Find someone that knows what they are doing and can clearly communicate the reasons.
4- I would want a lot more experince before I put the shingle out for single-man clearing instruction.
You thoughts/approach are very common sense (rare thing these days).
Most of the errors I have ever witnessed when doing single man clearing came from guys that are used to operating as a team (both in the LE/SWAT world and .Mil arena). Some of the best clears came from lowly civy's with no LE or Military background.
You are what you practce and if you are always going to be alone, you better be damn good at it.
C4
Good thread. I'm going to look into the NRA courses, I hadn't really considered any of them.
Jay Cunningham
08-17-10, 09:46
Good thread. I'm going to look into the NRA courses, I hadn't really considered any of them.
A lot of people seem to dismiss the NRA stuff as "not high speed enough" without really knowing the content. The current revisions of both Basic Pistol and PPIH are actually rather good.
Ga Shooter
08-17-10, 11:14
Here are my thoughts.
I would love to take this type of training but facilities and oppurtunity in my area(south GA) does not exist. There is a facility but only mil/le have access to it. I live only about an hour away from where the FBI has a huge training facility and I even am very good friends with the local Feds but htey get very quiet when you ask about it. I think it is very important and would probalby save lives overall if more people had this type of training. I watch good shooters every month fall completly apart during IDPA matches because they have never done anything like that before. I agree best move is to barricade and wait but that is always not possible.
As far as instructors teaching the wrong people; it may happen. I know at one time of gang members joining the army to get in better shape, learn how to shoot, and learn how to fight to be mor valuable to their gangs when they get out. But do you ignore the need of the good for the fear of a few bad?
Last. In toaday's world and times being uncertain do you think the bad people are not training? We should be prepared because you never know what tomorrow brings.
NCPatrolAR
08-17-10, 11:20
For this type of training most people are going to have to travel for it. How far you're willing to travel will be the ultimate question
Ga Shooter
08-17-10, 11:30
With my schedule and family responsablilties I would like to keep travel to about 5 hours or so by car.
2. I have done some (but not a great deal) of single and team shoothouse training over the last few years from people who are well qualified to teach it. Many knowledgeable folks are reluctant to teach single person CQB training scenarios because it is such a high risk, desperate, and dangerous approach and is almost never the preferred response. That is specious reasoning in my mind, as it's sort of like not teaching emergency tracheotomy because it's a last resort, higher risk technique that should only be done if other approaches would be or have proven futile. Part of the training is emphasizing its application (and when it is NOT the correct approach) and the criteria that justify its use given the risks and alternatives.
I think exposure to this stuff can certainly not hurt the regular guy, but I also think it might even serve as a way to find out that you 100% do not want to have to do this. I know many things that I do not want to ever do, and lead my life in a way so that I have lowered the odds of having to do such things.
For this type of training most people are going to have to travel for it. How far you're willing to travel will be the ultimate question
Totally agree with the above statement.
Fact is there a lot of opportunities to do 1 man room clears in training, what I've found is that many students aren't willing or unable to put the time and effort to making it to those classes.
I've taken classes at Frontsight, Gunsite and TDI Ohio where students were taught to do 1 man room clears. I did a 5 day shoot house class with Pat Rogers a few years ago at Pat Goodale's facility in WV as well as the H/V low light class at Tom Taylor's place in Ohio.
None of those classes were restricted as far as civilian enrollment.
I know that Paul Howe has a Home Defense class listed on his website but don't know much about it.
Are there any instructors or courses like this in Colorado? I am very interested.
pilotguyo540
08-17-10, 14:45
Now how about a 2 man husband and wife house clearing course? That would be great. Also a fantastic alternative to marriage counseling :D !
Now how about a 2 man husband and wife house clearing course? That would be great. Also a fantastic alternative to marriage counseling :D !
The wife and I would love this!!! I hope there is a good course/instructor in Colorado at least for single CQB Home defense, but husband/wife would be awesome!
Now how about a 2 man husband and wife house clearing course? That would be great. Also a fantastic alternative to marriage counseling :D !
Two man type training requires that both shooters be up to speed. Meaning good weapon handling (read safe), good shooters and familiar with their guns.
Training like this is not the place to be teaching malfunction clearing, sight alignment, trigger press, tac reloads, etc, etc.
C4
thopkins22
08-17-10, 17:22
CSAT is doing a civilian home defense course a couple of times a year now as well.
CSAT is proud to announce the instruction of a HOME DEFENSE COURSE I at the training facility in Nacogdoches. This course was developed for the American Citizen who wishes to learn how to protect themselves and their family. Students practice responding to high risk confrontations while at or arriving home.
Technical and tactical skills will be taught for a one person response to armed intruders along with legal considerations. A comprehensive list of units/ departments that CSAT has trained can be found at www.combatshootingandtactics.com
This class focuses on the tactical employment of the rifle/pistol/shotgun under normal conditions. The class will also address the following:
• Safety
• Equipment Selection
• Weapon Familiarization
• Discrimination
• The use of cover
• Tactical response to four core scenarios and legal considerations
• Link up procedures with police
• Medical
I'm in.
Two man type training requires that both shooters be up to speed. Meaning good weapon handling (read safe), good shooters and familiar with their guns.
Training like this is not the place to be teaching malfunction clearing, sight alignment, trigger press, tac reloads, etc, etc.
C4
Not necessarily, I think for a HD class you can structure it so that the second person can be utilized as an asset without having to be trained to the same level as the primary shooter or even armed.
For those "bump in the night" scenarios having the second person available to visually hold on real estate already cleared, provide rear security, to work comms, run lights or open doors can be a huge force multiplier.
Would it be better to have a 2 people armed with tricked out AR's, NVG's, body armor and hands free comms? Sure, but if that's not feasible then the key is to leverage your potential liabilities in to assets.
FromMyColdDeadHand
08-17-10, 21:18
Outside of the instruction of a class, how does a well designed IDPA differ from these drills? Too many targets?
How screwy of a world where we hand out CCWs and then worry that training them might have a downside.
I think the perfect CCW class would be split between psuedo CQB/PSD since securing your house is one thing, but when I'm in public I usually have my family in tow.
NCPatrolAR
08-17-10, 21:25
Outside of the instruction of a class, how does a well designed IDPA differ from these drills? Too many targets?
type of targets, timer, mindset of shooter, etc
This is an interesting discussion. Here are some of my thoughts thus far. Hopeful the community finds them valuable in some way.
I believe the skills we develop at shooting courses are necessary, but tactics rule the day in a violent confrontation. Confidence in skills will help cultivate a proper mindset. However, confidence in tactics (your ability to manipulate the environment/situation to your advantage) breeds a dominant and victorious mindset.
This usage of the term “CQB tactics” (Close Quarters Battle tactics) in this thread is new to me. Traditionally, I have always used this term to describe team building combat in a military or LE context. The foundational tactic in this is the 4 man dynamic room entry which quickly and efficiently allows a team to dominate a room with in a structure. I supposed however in a more broad sense there is close quarters battle (lower case) which could be defined as any type of combat that one is involved in at close distance typically in a structure. Thus, I suppose it would be fair to use the term “cqb” to describe a violent confrontation that involved a single person that needed to move within a structure safely and efficiently.
As previously stated, using the term “CQB” is controversial for some and is certainly sexy and appealing to others. From a marketing perspective there are obvious assets and liabilities. For those concerned with the stigma associated with teaching private citizens “CQB,” I think the obvious way to resolve the problem is by using the common term of “home defense tactics” or something similar.
I have had the opportunity to be involved in many types of tactics training both team and individual as a student and instructor over the years, here are some of my thought and observations regarding the particulars of the training:
The goal should be to internalize tactical principles (use of cover, channelization, verbalization, use of light, etc) so that one can apply the principles to new and different situations/environments under the stress of a violent confrontation. This is not effectively achieved for the student through 3 to 6 repetitions of moving through a shoot house and being coached through the nuisances of that particular shoot house.
The foundation should be laid in a somewhat sterile environment using red/blue guns. An emphasis should be placed on the variety of situations and quantity of repetitions. The more problems you can present to a student the more tools they will have to apply in a new scenario.
Once the foundation is laid with inert guns, then the use of airsoft or simuntions becomes valuable. Personally, I find airsoft to be the most effective way to train tactics for a team or an individual. Simunitions can work well, but it is cost prohibitive for most and causes a lot of admin down time with all the reloading. With airsoft and a quality structure, students can literally get hundreds of repetitions in a single training day. It also allows for the use of many different structures that one could not do live fire in.
The student should also seek more advanced live fire training when ready. Training should focus on precise execution of shooting fundamentals and accuracy during more dynamic drills involving movement, positions, communication, and multiple shooters. The drills should challenge students to process information under stress not just press the trigger.
Live fire scenarios will now be much more valuable and effective for the student. The stress and complexity of a live fire shoot house is excellent training. However, the heavy administrative costs and lack of useable facilities makes this difficult for the private citizen. A solid foundation in tactics prior to shoot house work will make it that much more valuable.
Students should participate in well thought out and planned force on force scenarios. This is equivalent to the scrimmage in athletics. Complex structures, multiple roll players, a mix of sims and blank guns for the bad guys and much more can contribute to the stress and realism of a well done scenario.
Thanks,
Jeff
I've been teaching a solo structure movement course for the past three years to qualified citizens. It's strictly airsoft so it lacks the live fire componant, but so far so good on not having any bad guys show up that I've had to turn away.
Here's the syllabus.
ShivWorks
Armed Movement in Structures (AMIS)
The ShivWorks Armed Movement in Structures (AMIS) course is a contextually underscored twenty hour block of instruction focusing on negotiating movement problems within structures with limited or no resources. Realizing that moving through a structure that contains armed hostiles, perhaps by one’s self, is probably the most dangerous task one can undertake, the best options for winning a confrontation are presented with the qualification that there is no safe way to do this.
Topics covered include:
Day One (12 hours):
•Viewing the environment in terms of the unseen
•Vertical, Horizontal, and Diagonal planes of visual obscurement
•Distance variables and the visual apex
•Threshold evaluation
•Dynamic and Deliberate movement
•Room Entry factors (known versus unknown)
•Minimizing multiple exposure
•Modifying the fighting platform to conform to cover and concealment
•Re-setting/Disrupting the adversary’s OODA loop
•Chalk board exercises
•Dry-runs
•FoF evolutions
•Low-light module
Day Two (8 hours)
•Practical Exercises for egress, search, and third-party rescue
Equipment Required
Airsoft pistol, airsoft ammunition, wrap around eye/face protection suitable for Airsoft and man-marking cartridges, holster, groin protection, flashlight. Course cost for 20 hours of instruction is $400.00
Here's couple of reviews.
http://www.mdtstraining.com/AAR_7-19+20-08_SouthNarc_AMIS.pdf
http://ingunowners.com/forums/tactics_and_training/82728-aar_southnarc_s_amis_class.html
Failure2Stop
08-18-10, 08:35
Its good to see that there are reputable trainers offering these to the public.
One of these classes will probably be my next self-paid training event.
Not necessarily, I think for a HD class you can structure it so that the second person can be utilized as an asset without having to be trained to the same level as the primary shooter or even armed.
For those "bump in the night" scenarios having the second person available to visually hold on real estate already cleared, provide rear security, to work comms, run lights or open doors can be a huge force multiplier.
Would it be better to have a 2 people armed with tricked out AR's, NVG's, body armor and hands free comms? Sure, but if that's not feasible then the key is to leverage your potential liabilities in to assets.
This would depend on each persons situation. In my case, I want my wife in the safe room with the kids and the spare weapon.
If we did not have kids, I want her armed, and providing rear security along with helping me take 50/50 rooms.
C4
Gunfighter 9
08-19-10, 07:15
Many have said here time and again that clearing a house is a last resort activity. I disagree with that for one reason. Most of us have children, and unless you have the means to afford a custom home where you can specify the layout of the rooms there is going to be some distance between the master bedroom and others. This means that you have no option but to retrieve your children before barricading. I could not in good conscious barricade in my room while my children were exposed to any type of danger. I know there is reluctance to teach these skills, but I think they too critical to not be taught. Can any of you say that you would not begin doing a one man clear in order to safe guard your family?
Jay Cunningham
08-19-10, 07:42
I could not in good conscious barricade in my room while my children were exposed to any type of danger. I know there is reluctance to teach these skills, but I think they too critical to not be taught. Can any of you say that you would not begin doing a one man clear in order to safe guard your family?
I don't see where anyone has suggested this. What we have suggested is that one man defensive clearing - even with training - is extremely dangerous.
There are also times when the potential risk to a family member forces you to move rapidly to the scene, bypassing rooms that you might otherwise methodically clear.
I don't see where anyone has suggested this. What we have suggested is that one man defensive clearing - even with training - is extremely dangerous.
There are also times when the potential risk to a family member forces you to move rapidly to the scene, bypassing rooms that you might otherwise methodically clear.
bingo.
There is a difference between me clearing my entire home (every under sink, in every closet) and moving from point A to point B as quickly and safely as possible.
My house is set up so that all of the rooms are on one side. The distance from our master bedroom to my sons room is about 20 feet. Assuming that we were in the room and he was in his room I did a little test.
The scenario was "they" came in through the front door. I reacted and ran into his bedroom, snatched him up and ran back to our room where we barricaded ourselves. It took about 30 seconds.
This was under ideal conditions where everyone knew what was happening. Add sleep, etc... and other factors to the equation and who knows.
Like the others have stated, no one said anything about just leaving family members out in the cold. What has been said is that conducting a one man clearing of a dwelling or structure sucks and shouldn't be done unless there are no other options.
Many have said here time and again that clearing a house is a last resort activity. I disagree with that for one reason. Most of us have children, and unless you have the means to afford a custom home where you can specify the layout of the rooms there is going to be some distance between the master bedroom and others. This means that you have no option but to retrieve your children before barricading. I could not in good conscious barricade in my room while my children were exposed to any type of danger. I know there is reluctance to teach these skills, but I think they too critical to not be taught. Can any of you say that you would not begin doing a one man clear in order to safe guard your family?
Ga Shooter
08-19-10, 22:19
My house is set up so that all of the rooms are on one side. The distance from our master bedroom to my sons room is about 20 feet. Assuming that we were in the room and he was in his room I did a little test.
The scenario was "they" came in through the front door. I reacted and ran into his bedroom, snatched him up and ran back to our room where we barricaded ourselves. It took about 30 seconds.
This was under ideal conditions where everyone knew what was happening. Add sleep, etc... and other factors to the equation and who knows.
Like the others have stated, no one said anything about just leaving family members out in the cold. What has been said is that conducting a one man clearing of a dwelling or structure sucks and shouldn't be done unless there are no other options.
Iraq did you time to see how long it took you to get from your front door to your or your children's bedrooms? That might give you an idea of how much time you have to react. If it is less than 30 sec. confrontation will be inevitable. Just extra thoughts.
Iraq did you time to see how long it took you to get from your front door to your or your children's bedrooms? That might give you an idea of how much time you have to react. If it is less than 30 sec. confrontation will be inevitable. Just extra thoughts.
I understand what you're saying, but... Your operating under the premise that the invaders will know the inside layout of the house. I would imagine on breaking in they'll need a few seconds to orientate themselves due to furniture, lay out, casing the place, oh shit nervousness factor. Also, I do not think that finding kid's rooms is the first thing on their agenda, I could be wrong. Stealing shit and dealing with the threat/home owner is probably a lot more pressing than finding Jr's toys. Unless of course that's their motivation, but I don't think most pedophiles are doing home invasions to get to kids, again, I could be wrong.
I did not. I'll check that as well. I was kind of thinking along the lines of Irish. They will be unfamiliar with my layout and proably be focused on other things, but it is something to think about.
Iraq did you time to see how long it took you to get from your front door to your or your children's bedrooms? That might give you an idea of how much time you have to react. If it is less than 30 sec. confrontation will be inevitable. Just extra thoughts.
Ga Shooter
08-20-10, 07:15
I agree with both of you but just like checking how long it takes while awake and everybody knows what is going on it will give you an "idea" then you could assume that the sleep factor from you and fam will be same as the diorientation of "them". While not perfect it could you a base line to work from but far from ideal.
I agree with both of you but just like checking how long it takes while awake and everybody knows what is going on it will give you an "idea" then you could assume that the sleep factor from you and fam will be same as the diorientation of "them". While not perfect it could you a base line to work from but far from ideal.
Absolutely, and you've made good recommendations. I was just playing a little bit of devil's advocate and looking at the other side of the coin. I think one of the most important things you can do is "target hardening" and making it extremely difficult for anyone to enter. If they can't get it in, you don't have to shoot them and you don't have to go to court ;)
Dirk Williams
08-20-10, 12:05
A new market or niche is being developed to exploit/market "CQB". Perhaps its a good tool. Perhaps its a disaster waiting to happen.
Thoughts On Traveling to training. Seems to me that a serious student wanting to protect his family and turf has the ultimate training tool at his disposal without leaving his or her residence.
The home owner has the distinct advantage of training and re-training in his own home which in most applications will be the location of the confrontation.
Think about it, if your serious you can work the battle problem out in real time in the actual location, from every possible angle.
You can run the plan backwards for weakness identification and forward from every crack and door you have within the residence. You as the victim/home owner can in fact master the terrain via daily/weekly practice, known distance, terrain between doors and entry points.
If your serious the family should be working this thing first as a team ,then as individuals, then as the bad guy to better understand the total dynamic of both ends of the upcoming bad juju your training for.
I don't see how you could get better or more realistic training by going to a school, except to maybe learn and become more confident in your weapons handling and failure drills.
In most police applications CQB is in its simplist form is really doing the same thing with taped outlines/ doors/ and room size which is rehersed repeatedly Or in another building with the same lay out until its failure proof as possible.
Just my 2 cents
Respectfully
D Williams
Jay Cunningham
08-20-10, 12:12
I don't see how you could get better or more realistic training by going to a school, except to maybe learn and become more confident in your weapons handling and failure drills.
I would tend to disagree. You can be as "serious" as a heart attack, but if you have not been trained in some of the less obvious techniques of one-man defensive clearing, you are going to "self-train" your way to false confidence.
You need a trained eye watching you perform these techniques to advise you what you are doing right and wrong.
thopkins22
08-20-10, 12:29
Dirk touched on something in his post and Jay did too, but as has been pointed out many times on this board, there's a difference between training and learning.
They are "training courses," but in reality I'm going to learn something new. I'll do the training and repetitions on my own.
If I've never taken a corner, retreated to a safe room and barricaded it, or stormed out of my bedroom butt naked with a rifle and screaming "Get out of my house!" in an obscene fashion, then all of the planning and dry runs around my house/apartment aren't going to do me all that much good.
I don't think anyone has ever really argued that it's a good idea to take down a house full of armed criminals, but that there are plenty of situations where you have absolutely no clue what it was that you heard(therefor it doesn't really warrant a call to the police does it?) and you want to inspect further. If I've never received instruction on how to do that safely, it's very possible that I devise plans/tactics that are unsafe for me, my neighbors, and my family.
Dirk Williams
08-20-10, 12:31
Good morning Jay, what would these one man tactics look like, Im having a hard time defining less obvious tactics.
For the common male in a family defending his turf, seems to me KISS should apply. Nothing fancy just defend the castle or kill the turd which ever is needed.
D Williams
Jay Cunningham
08-20-10, 12:43
There are tactics but there are also plans (strategy).
Something like NRA PPItH gives a lot of food for thought concerning how to harden and safeguard the house, use of force in your state, conditions of readiness (white, yellow, orange, red) and plans for dealing with law enforcement when they do show up. There is also good advice for what your wife/girlfriend should be doing while you are going to guns. Use of cover and concealment is touched upon.
When it comes to one-man clearing, some important issues have already been mentioned such as checking your corners, "pie"ing off to keep yourself behind cover, dealing with doors, etc.
Unless you have been through a shoothouse with an experienced instructor observing you, many seemingly obvious things will slip under the radar. For instance, unless you have been on the catwalk at the end of a long hall observing, you probably won't realize how much more you expose of yourself when you roll out to your weak side - unless you have taken proper measures to mitigate it.
There's much more to this topic.
The scenario was "they" came in through the front door. I reacted and ran into his bedroom, snatched him up and ran back to our room where we barricaded ourselves. It took about 30 seconds.
I think making the kids room the safe room is overlooked. Getting my wife into the kids room is much faster and easier than getting my kids into the master.
Also in a home invasion gaining control of the master bedroom/man of the house would be my first priority if I was the BG.
Dirk Williams
08-20-10, 14:00
Jay Point taken.
My stated training platform of back play or from the bad guys perspective/view was to counter that specific issue and other issues. in the exact enviornment the incident will occur.
That concept gives everybody on your team or, in play, the oppertunity to see both ways and work their tactics and the enviornment/space.
To train as the good guy is always good, to have a working understanding of the bad guy and his objectives and what he or they see upon entry is critical.
In this gig time is money, distance and space are everything.
It is totally realistic to expect that you will expose yourself at some point. Timing issue's are critical and needs to be at your disposal, not the bad guys. Lady Luck also plays a roll in this gig.
Todd you are right on point, control the alpha dog you win. Everybody else will comply. Control my kids or wife all your going to do is piss me off, and then I gotta ****ing kill you.
Ive said this before and it's a show stopper, the terrain will dictate the combat and or your tactics.
Jay I understand your point on training however I don't think at least in my application a cat walk session is going to help me in my living room.
At some point you will be exposed if your pro active, that is certain. Hopefully it's after the turds have enter a sort of fatal funnel or KZ
Respectfully
D Williams
I think making the kids room the safe room is overlooked. Getting my wife into the kids room is much faster and easier than getting my kids into the master.
Also in a home invasion gaining control of the master bedroom/man of the house would be my first priority if I was the BG.
ToddK,
Great point, I've had this discussion with others before and suggested the same thing.
Part of the HD plan is to minimize exposure to the bad guys so being able to make a 1 way trip to the kids room is easier than. 2 way trip to and from the master bedroom.
Also, it may be easier to be working with 1 adult who can follow instructions rather than trying to corral one or more kids in a high stress situation.
I think te reason this gets overlooked is because most people automatically default to the master bedroom as the "safe room" since that's where the adults stay, concurrently that's where the guns/phone are located.
The difficult part of moving to the kids room is that the rooms are generally smaller, harder to pre-stage weapons/phones without having to worry about the kids messing around and if you have multiple childrens room you may still have to do a round trip to one of the other rooms.
While I know there is no real substitute for actual training with a professional, considering training options are limited for this topic, I'm wonder what industry professionals (or those with experience) think about books like The Tactical Advantage by Suarez (http://www.amazon.com/Tactical-Advantage-Definitive-Personal-Small-Arms/dp/0873649753/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1282332949&sr=1-1). I purchased this in the early 2000s and it seemed (from a noob perspective) to have some interesting food for thought. I guess that was my first introduction to slicing the pie and the like, since at that time, I was a year or so from going to my first IDPA match. Basic things like which side of the hallway to stand on when approaching a door were no even a thought in my mind before reading that book.
If all else fails, there is always the wikihow version:
http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-a-Building-with-a-Firearm. There is even a Rob S listed as an author, so you know it's good to go :D
If all else fails, there is always the wikihow version:
http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-a-Building-with-a-Firearm. There is even a Rob S listed as an author, so you know it's good to go :D
15k+ contributions (http://www.wikihow.com/User:Myrmidon101)? Definitely not me!
That concept gives everybody on your team or, in play, the oppertunity to see both ways and work their tactics and the enviornment/space.
Gaming you house is a great idea but it will be far more productive after the basic ideas of movement, corners, etc. are learned. You are right that owning the terrain is an advantage you want to exploit.
If the thought of clearing a building alone does not make you brake out in a cold sweat you probably don't know what you don't know. Force on force building clearing is a humbling experience with a team.
Ga Shooter
08-20-10, 15:47
Absolutely, and you've made good recommendations. I was just playing a little bit of devil's advocate and looking at the other side of the coin. I think one of the most important things you can do is "target hardening" and making it extremely difficult for anyone to enter. If they can't get it in, you don't have to shoot them and you don't have to go to court ;)
I understand and I agree. No matter the internet bravado some may have; I still think the best idea is to barricade and wait it out but as we have seen in this thread that may not be possible.
Ga Shooter
08-20-10, 15:50
I think making the kids room the safe room is overlooked. Getting my wife into the kids room is much faster and easier than getting my kids into the master.
].
This is how my plan works.:ph34r:
Dirk Williams
08-20-10, 19:01
Todd K, Agreed searching a business, house or any building alone is never a good situation, unfortunatley its a harsh reality.
Protecting your castle or not is also a choice. Having kids in the residence also makes the pucker factor rise. I would recommend that the readers learn what they can and then plan for the reality of what might happen in there specific residences.
Good luck to anybody crossing this bridge, I did and made a potentially deadly choice which I didn't realize until after the intitial contact with a man at the front door of my residence with a gun.
Have a great weekend.
D Williams
NCPatrolAR
08-20-10, 20:23
While you should certainly do countless runs of clearing your own residence and doing "rehearsals" with family members; it doesn't replace going out and receiving formal training in doing these things. While the training isn't occurring in your residence; it should be teaching you the universal principles of cover/concealment, slicing the pie, quick peeks, decision making, marksmanship under high amounts of stress, etc.
Also keep in mind that while we are most likely to need these skills at our own residence; there is still the chance that you may need to do this as the residence of a friend, family member, etc. We only short-change ourselves if we restrict our ability to perform these skills in only one "area of operations".
I just keep some flash bangs handy so they will know what it's like to be "disoriented" as I wake from my beauty sleep. :)
I agree with both of you but just like checking how long it takes while awake and everybody knows what is going on it will give you an "idea" then you could assume that the sleep factor from you and fam will be same as the diorientation of "them". While not perfect it could you a base line to work from but far from ideal.
I don't know if "kid" is the proper term for this lad. He is 16, 5'7" and weighs 147 lbs. And he does know how to shoot. :D
I think making the kids room the safe room is overlooked. Getting my wife into the kids room is much faster and easier than getting my kids into the master.
Also in a home invasion gaining control of the master bedroom/man of the house would be my first priority if I was the BG.
Complication
08-20-10, 21:39
I just keep some flash bangs handy so they will know what it's like to be "disoriented" as I wake from my beauty sleep. :)
Haha. Regardless of how serious you were being: I'm curious as to how likely would setting your house ablaze be if you started tossing flashbangs around?
Most of my house has tile flooring except for a small patch in the formal living room. But, I would be replacing quite a few windows. HC white smoke also comes in handy. :p
Haha. Regardless of how serious you were being: I'm curious as to how likely would setting your house ablaze be if you started tossing flashbangs around?
This would depend on each persons situation. In my case, I want my wife in the safe room with the kids and the spare weapon.
I'm with Grant on this one. If I'm going to be running and gunning in my house, I want the wife holding what she's got and out of my way.
There are also times when the potential risk to a family member forces you to move rapidly to the scene, bypassing rooms that you might otherwise methodically clear.
Indeed. I'm not going to go into the specifics of my house plan here. I'll just say that the layout of my house and status of occupants precludes the possibility of holing up in the master bedroom.
I know the points of domination in my house; from which, I can control all the real estate I need to secure what needs to be secured. The basic plan is to drive hard from point A to point B, shooting anyone in my way whom I don't recognize, bypassing some rooms along the way. Once I get to point B, I can slow down and hold. I have a hard time envisioning a need to immediately clear my entire house. I just need to take care of the immediate threat and then hold until the 5-O arrive. In my particular case, this means that I have to move. However, I'm only going to move as necessary to accomplish my planned task -- no less, no more.
It seems to me that many folks get caught up with the notion that they need to go fully dynamic and clear their entire house, tool shed and dog house. Home defense is not the same as raiding a cartel dope lab, retaking a hijacked airliner, or hitting a house looking for HVT's in A-stan.
As Dirk pointed out, the homeowner has the advantages of knowledge of the terrain, who does and doesn't belong; generally, where the friendlies are/should be; and the ability to prepare and rehearse a plan ahead of time. That's huge.
I've been reading these pages with great interest. I'm a noobie and have taken 3 classes but, still at the bottom of the learning curve. Many things pointed out in this thread that I had'nt thought about. Which goes back to Grant's original post - regular family guys like me could use some form of HD training. We don't need HSLD tactics just a good course on the fundamentals. Grant, wish you were in TExas. I'd be the first to sign up. Brad
While you should certainly do countless runs of clearing your own residence and doing "rehearsals" with family members; it doesn't replace going out and receiving formal training in doing these things. ".
I agree. As previously stated, "you don't know what you don't know."
As many hear can probably attest, it is a humbling wakeup call the first time you attend a shooting course from an instructor who has real world experience, top notch skills, an analytical mind to break down why things work, and the ability to effectively communicate and coach these skills. This is a rare combination and separates the few top quality instructors from the rest. You really find out that you didn’t know much and you probably are not doing it correctly.
While it is rare to find this with a shooting course, it is even more rare to find this with a tactics course. A true tactician who can break tactics down to the principles and can effectively teach them to you doesn’t happen very often. I know lots of guys that are skilled at tactics, and I would not think twice about going through a door with them, but I haven't encountered many that can effectively teach tactics.
Tactics courses separate those who are serious about preparing for a violent confrontation and from those who are just interested in fantasy camp. In my experience, it is really easy to fill a gun course, but it is hard to fill a tactics course when the students realize they are going to run around with blue guns and airsoft for three days. "What no live fire..."
In my experience, it is really easy to fill a gun course, but it is hard to fill a tactics course when the students realize they are going to run around with blue guns and airsoft for three days. "What no live fire..."
This is very true. The emphasis on round count, for its own sake, is ridiculous. I don't go to a course to maximize the amount of rounds downrange, rather, I go to learn gunhandling or tactics (or both), and whether that involves one round or a thousand rounds, I couldn't give a crap.
I am very fond of going to a particular instructor in VA (CCJA), where I have often heard, "This course is not to teach you how to shoot, but rather how to fight." There's quite a difference.
Ga Shooter
08-21-10, 06:55
I just keep some flash bangs handy so they will know what it's like to be "disoriented" as I wake from my beauty sleep. :)
Great idea! Want to share some with those of us who don't have any?:lol:
While you should certainly do countless runs of clearing your own residence and doing "rehearsals" with family members; it doesn't replace going out and receiving formal training in doing these things. While the training isn't occurring in your residence; it should be teaching you the universal principles of cover/concealment, slicing the pie, quick peeks, decision making, marksmanship under high amounts of stress, etc.
Also keep in mind that while we are most likely to need these skills at our own residence; there is still the chance that you may need to do this as the residence of a friend, family member, etc. We only short-change ourselves if we restrict our ability to perform these skills in only one "area of operations".
One of the best posts in the thread, and goes to more than just CQB/home tactics.
General and specific concepts with an understanding of where, how, and why to employ them is a much better approach for training purposes. Take that home and apply it to your "castle", but also take away the evaluation skills both for those times when you're away from home but also when your initial plan goes to hell.
(such as, you rush into the teenager's room either to recover him or barricade with him, and he's not there. what now?)
Ga Shooter
08-21-10, 07:16
Thank you Grant for starting this thread. It is one of the best threads I have seen in a long time. But I think while most now agree that this type of training is needed it is still hard to come by for us civies. If we do find someone willing to teach how do we know htey are qualified? As has been stated here so many times get quality training. Because of the community that M4C has we know who and who not to take training from in respects to shooting pistols, carbines and shotguns.
Tactics is a whole other category. As Jeff stated in his post knowing tactics and teaching it is 2 very different things. Maybe we can start incorporating those instructors and classes in with the training forum?
Thank you Grant for starting this thread. It is one of the best threads I have seen in a long time. But I think while most now agree that this type of training is needed it is still hard to come by for us civies. If we do find someone willing to teach how do we know htey are qualified? As has been stated here so many times get quality training. Because of the community that M4C has we know who and who not to take training from in respects to shooting pistols, carbines and shotguns.
Tactics is a whole other category. As Jeff stated in his post knowing tactics and teaching it is 2 very different things. Maybe we can start incorporating those instructors and classes in with the training forum?
You are welcome and glad I could be of service.
For me, finding a quality instructor is easy. I just wait and or create a HD class with Vickers or Hackathorn. :D
There WILL be options for you come this Fall (if you don't mind a little road trip to OH).
C4
NCPatrolAR
08-21-10, 09:04
If we do find someone willing to teach how do we know htey are qualified? As has been stated here so many times get quality training. Because of the community that M4C has we know who and who not to take training from in respects to shooting pistols, carbines and shotguns.
Tactics is a whole other category. As Jeff stated in his post knowing tactics and teaching it is 2 very different things. Maybe we can start incorporating those instructors and classes in with the training forum?
Finding a solid "tactics" instructor is the same as finding a good shooting instructor. Do some research and find a class that sounds good to you. Look at the bio of the instructor teaching, email specific questions to the instructor (ex: what's your background to teach a HD class, how did you learn to do clears, etc), and finally ask about that person on here.
Thank you Grant for starting this thread. It is one of the best threads I have seen in a long time. But I think while most now agree that this type of training is needed it is still hard to come by for us civies. If we do find someone willing to teach how do we know htey are qualified? As has been stated here so many times get quality training. Because of the community that M4C has we know who and who not to take training from in respects to shooting pistols, carbines and shotguns.
Tactics is a whole other category. As Jeff stated in his post knowing tactics and teaching it is 2 very different things. Maybe we can start incorporating those instructors and classes in with the training forum?
Dave Blinder with Personal Defense Training in Norcross, GA will occasionally host Insights' Courses. Including Street and Vehicle Tactics or Home Defense Tactics. At this time, the instructor most likely to teach would be John Holschen.
pilotguyo540
08-21-10, 10:37
You are welcome and glad I could be of service.
For me, finding a quality instructor is easy. I just wait and or create a HD class with Vickers or Hackathorn. :D
There WILL be options for you come this Fall (if you don't mind a little road trip to OH).
C4
What would the prerequisites be for this class?
Pistols only?
Any date in mind?
Complication
08-21-10, 10:41
What would the prerequisites be for this class?
Pistols only?
Any date in mind?
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59073
pilotguyo540
08-21-10, 10:45
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=59073
Doh!!! That was so long ago I must have forgot.
What would the prerequisites be for this class?
Pistols only?
Any date in mind?
If Hackathorn is teaching it, basic pistol would be required I think.
We are currently thinking end of October.
C4
Ga Shooter
08-23-10, 10:08
For me, finding a quality instructor is easy. I just wait and or create a HD class with Vickers or Hackathorn. :D
C4
I don't know if I should love you or hate you.:D
This fall is busy for me but maybe I can squeeze a trip in that far but probably will be next year.
Ga Shooter
08-23-10, 10:13
Dave Blinder with Personal Defense Training in Norcross, GA will occasionally host Insights' Courses. Including Street and Vehicle Tactics or Home Defense Tactics. At this time, the instructor most likely to teach would be John Holschen.
I have seen them on the web but have never talked to anyone who has used them. Has anyone here heard of them?
I have seen them on the web but have never talked to anyone who has used them. Has anyone here heard of them?
In the past 10 or so years I've taken these classes from Insights.
Street and Vehicle
Intensive Handgun Skills
Unarmed Self Defense
Defensive Folding Knife
Handgun Retention and Disarming
Close Quarters Combat
General Defensive Rifle
Greg Hamilton and John Holshon are great instructors and have created a solid integrated set of courses. I just wish they came to Texas more often these days.
Gringop
wedgehead30
08-27-10, 10:12
Grant, you're talking about extremely restricted training that the overwhelming majority of forum participants will never be able to attend.
Calling CQB training mandatory when such training is nearly nonexistent to civilians... what solution do you propose other than reading in awe?
I can only speak about my area, which is NE Ohio. But off of the top of my head I can think of at least 3 ranges within a two hour drive where anyone can show up and do some realistic training including home defense. Usually the fees are minimal, just to cover targets and other range costs. The instruction is usually more of a group effort by folks that have had more extensive training and experience. Normally a nice mix of Military, Police and Civilian backgrounds.
If you don't have anything close by, perhaps starting up your own training group would be an option? At my home range we have a nice mix of people who bring a lot of good information to the table. We try to utilize that to our best advantage. Keep in mind this is not intended to replace a solid training class from Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, etc. But there are a lot of knowledgeable people out there who are happy to pass on what has and hasn't worked for them.
Scott
:D
To piggy back onto this thread about the need for Civy's to get room clearing experience, we just finished up a class with M4C members out of the OH/PA/WV Regional Training Forum.
The training was held at Ft. Harmar's fantastic new shoot house in Marietta Ohio.
To put it plainly, they all got a look at the great white elephant and learned what they did not know.
C4
Magic_Salad0892
10-12-10, 04:28
For once I feel like I can add something to a training discussion. (I lurk, normally don't post in the training forum.)
This isn't the best example of one man clearing in the methods talked about, more like independent combat in a hostile environment. (Very much like a BnE with multiple people.) but I feel it's better to train in LTL means (Airsoft) with live people, rather than paper targets.
In California a few years ago, I was doing airsofting pretty regularly (AR, Glock clones.) and in December of 2007, I went to place near Sacramento that was very much set up like a bank.
8 of us we ''robbers'', 8 of us were ''cops''.
The ones playing ''cops'' were a mix of local LEO, private security, and former-mil. The ''robbers'' were me and some civis. Two of which were former USMC.
The ''robbers'' objective was to break in and grab 4 duffel bags loaded with plastic balls simulating money. (Bags were between 8-15 lbs.)
The ''cops'' were to stop them.
Tactics wise, the ''cops'' were to work as a team based on training, etc. The ''robbers'' were to go in, get the objective, and get out fast. No real tactics required, just get the objective and stay alive.
See how this is similar to a break in?
We went 6 rounds. I survived 3.
My teams mistakes:
Not looking around corners, exposing one self to incoming fire, friendly fire (IE: Poor target identification), slow reloads, misplaces shots. Poor coordination in low light conditions. (When it got nighttime, we decided the robbers should cut the power, so it would be harder for everybody...)
My mistakes:
Slow reloads, moving too slow, moving too fast, attempting to take a hostage (''cop'') only to be shot in the kidney :help:, not being quiet, friendly fire, dropping a magazine and breaking it (stupid airsoft magazines), once I ran out of ammo I picked up a weapon I was unfamiliar with and couldn't use it.
''Cops'' mistakes:
Tactically reloading full magazines, poor interpretation of the phrases ''team work'', and defensive room clearing, not scanning rooms properly (I shot two in the back because of this.), poor target identification (I shot 3 in the chest because of this.), missing under stress, friendly fire under stress.
A majority of the time, I was the last one standing. Or I wasn't remotely near the other person left. (See how this is similar to a break in?)
I survived alone once. Out of the 3 times I was alone. :(
It was eye opening. Even people who are trained can totally shit the bed under stress.
I'd love to read some feedback. (I've gotten a bit better, and this is why I still go airsofting. It may be lame, but it's better than shooting at the paper range. IMHO.)
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