View Full Version : What is Freedom?
I'm actually kind of scared to post this, because I don't want it to become a flame war. But to be honest, I really do want to know what it truly means to be free in this country.
Everyone talks about how high taxes are in other "free" countries. But honestly I lose close to 50% of my paycheck before I even see it. Then I have to pay Property taxes, then I have to pay sales tax. Then there is gas tax. Hell you even have to pay a tax if you die. If your relatives die they have to pay a tax when they die, then you have to pay a tax if they die (inheritance tax). Then there is excise tax, road tax. Hazardous materials tax when you buy tires for your car. Taxes on electricity. Taxes on natural gas. Taxes on your phone connection.
It is just plain depressing at times how much we actually have to pay in taxes. There's no wonder why we are broke.
I know how much you pay in taxes doesn't equate to not being free. Or relates in any way to how free you are. It's just a rant.
Why is it that we have to have political parties? Why is that any Joe Blow can't run for President? Well I guess he could if he had the money to finance it himself (Ross Perot)
But seriously sometimes I feel like the only real freedom we have in this country is freedom of religion.
We technically don't have freedom of speech.
Freedom of the Press is a gray area. The press can't really print what they want to print. You have the news agencies that only print leftist views and you have news agencies that only print rightest views.
Freedom of assembly (yeah right) those always end up bad once the riot shields show up.
Freedom of choice: hmm another gray area. I don't have the choice of whether or not to wear my seat belt. I somehow have to be protected from myself. And apparently sooner or later I won't have the choice of whether or not I want to purchase health insurance.
2nd ammendment: well I'm allowed to carry a gun as long as I have a permit to carry one. And then if I do carry a gun and someone were to threaten my life. I would be too scared to use my gun in fear of being prosecuted for murder.
Don't get me wrong I still like it here. But I just have my doubts about us actually truly being a free country. ANYMORE.
RancidSumo
08-17-10, 15:20
I'm actually kind of scared to post this, because I don't want it to become a flame war. But to be honest, I really do want to know what it truly means to be free in this country.
Everyone talks about how high taxes are in other "free" countries. But honestly I lose close to 50% of my paycheck before I even see it. Then I have to pay Property taxes, then I have to pay sales tax. Then there is gas tax. Hell you even have to pay a tax if you die. If your relatives die they have to pay a tax when they die, then you have to pay a tax if they die (inheritance tax). Then there is excise tax, road tax. Hazardous materials tax when you buy tires for your car. Taxes on electricity. Taxes on natural gas. Taxes on your phone connection.
It is just plain depressing at times how much we actually have to pay in taxes. There's no wonder why we are broke.
I know how much you pay in taxes doesn't equate to not being free. Or relates in any way to how free you are. It's just a rant.
Why is it that we have to have political parties? Why is that any Joe Blow can't run for President? Well I guess he could if he had the money to finance it himself (Ross Perot)
But seriously sometimes I feel like the only real freedom we have in this country is freedom of religion.
We technically don't have freedom of speech.
Freedom of the Press is a gray area. The press can't really print what they want to print. You have the news agencies that only print leftist views and you have news agencies that only print rightest views.
Freedom of assembly (yeah right) those always end up bad once the riot shields show up.
Freedom of choice: hmm another gray area. I don't have the choice of whether or not to wear my seat belt. I somehow have to be protected from myself. And apparently sooner or later I won't have the choice of whether or not I want to purchase health insurance.
2nd ammendment: well I'm allowed to carry a gun as long as I have a permit to carry one. And then if I do carry a gun and someone were to threaten my life. I would be too scared to use my gun in fear of being prosecuted for murder.
Don't get me wrong I still like it here. But I just have my doubts about us actually truly being a free country. ANYMORE.
What? You're kidding right? Taxation relates directly to freedom, especially things such as property taxes and the worst of the worst, income tax. These things especially are outright theft by the government. When they take a portion of everything you earn and claim it as their own, you are nothing more than a slave allowed some minimum freedom to keep the masses happy. We are not free because these taxes are taken at the point of a gun. If you choose not to pay, your entire life can be ruined. It doesn't matter if you use any of the services funded by those taxes, Big Brother has ordered that you pay them anyway. How can you claim to be free under this system?
The only laws that can be tolerated if you wish to be free are laws that forbid people from directly violating a fundamental right of another. Healthcare is not a right. Education is not a right. A living wage is not a right. When the government starts passing laws that provide for these things, they always, 100% of the time, violate the fundamental right to be secure in one's property.
More on income tax- http://mises.org/etexts/rootofevil.asp
wow, I guess I never really thought of it that way.
Belmont31R
08-17-10, 15:43
You are right. We live in a quasi socialist state now.
Most people have no idea just how much they pay in taxes either directly or indirectly. Business pay their taxes because we give them money for goods. Part of the built in price of those goods is the tax that business has to pay. So everything you buy is higher priced because of it. On top of that most goods are subject to sales taxes. If you buy a $10 item you are probably paying about $3-4 dollars in direct and inderect taxes. Oh aside from the taxes businesses pay the employees who work there also get taxed, and that raises the price of goods because people have to earn enough to offset the taxes they pay.
I've always contended if you need a permit to do something then its not really a right anymore. Permit = permission, and if you need to ask permission to do something then you have no free will to do whatever it is you want to do.
And there are plenty of other countries that have more freedoms than we do in some areas, and less than others. There are a couple countries in Europe where you can buy a supressor over the counter for instance. In Germany in many places you can drive as fast as you want but you are responsible if your speed causes an accident. You can walk around with a beer, and not get hassled about public intox or open container in pubic. Theres really no such thing as minor in possession. At least they would not do anything about it if the kids weren't causing any harm or being obnoxious. Of course their gun laws are harsher than ours but then you look at states like CA who go out of their way to restrict gun ownership, and prosecute people. You don't see the Federal government suing states like CA even though the SCOTUS incorporated the 2nd Amendment and ruled it a fundamental right. No matter who we have had in office in the last 30 years no one single president has gone out of their way to improve gun rights, and most of them have made gun rights more restrictive. FOPA? Yeah there are quite a few people who get busted for driving through a state, get hemmed up with guns that are illegal there. Has the Feds ever done anything to enforce FOPA? Did anyone ever make a decent effort to repeal the 94 AWB? The feds have NEVER looked out for gun rights. All they have done is try to restrict them more and more. Under Republicans new MG's got banned, import bans, and GWB said he'd sign the AWB back into law if it came across his desk. At least we got a couple court victories, and even that was by ONE vote. I don't feel that our government is fulfilling its primary purpose of protecting our rights. Instead they try to erode them at every opportunity, and both parties do it. I don't really trust either party to look out for my rights. Both parties support income redistribution which means they don't think you have the right to the fruits of your labor. They just let you keep some of it so you don't get too mad.
But no I don't think the US has the market cornered when it comes to freedoms. Most of our freedoms are just a memory now. I can't even go for a damn 10 minute drive without seeing police all over the place ready to write me a ticket for any little thing. Somehow we can afford to keep so many LE writing traffic tickets but can't keep illegals out. Another failure of the primary purposes of government (protecting our sovereignty) but I guess there's no money in keeping illegals out, and our government sees them as a future voting block to pay more taxes. They need a lot more people who won't be using SS for 20-30 years to prop that ponzi scheme up.
I've always contended if you need a permit to do something then its not really a right anymore. Permit = permission, and if you need to ask permission to do something then you have no free will to do whatever it is you want to do.
Can't argue with that...
"No State shall convert a liberty into a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefore." -Murdock v. Pennsylvania, 319 US 105, US Supreme Court, 1943
We emphasized that the 'inherent vice and evil' of the flat license tax is that 'it restrains in advance those constitutional liberties' and 'inevitably tends to suppress their exercise.' 319 U.S. page 114, 63 S.Ct. page 875, 146 A.L.R. 81.-Follett vs. Town of McCormick, S.C., 321 U.S. 573 [1944]
And there are plenty of other countries that have more freedoms than we do in some areas, and less than others. There are a couple countries in Europe where you can buy a supressor over the counter for instance. In Germany in many places you can drive as fast as you want but you are responsible if your speed causes an accident. You can walk around with a beer, and not get hassled about public intox or open container in pubic. Theres really no such thing as minor in possession. At least they would not do anything about it if the kids weren't causing any harm or being obnoxious. Of course their gun laws are harsher than ours but then you look at states like CA who go out of their way to restrict gun ownership, and prosecute people. You don't see the Federal government suing states like CA even though the SCOTUS incorporated the 2nd Amendment and ruled it a fundamental right. No matter who we have had in office in the last 30 years no one single president has gone out of their way to improve gun rights, and most of them have made gun rights more restrictive. FOPA? Yeah there are quite a few people who get busted for driving through a state, get hemmed up with guns that are illegal there. Has the Feds ever done anything to enforce FOPA? Did anyone ever make a decent effort to repeal the 94 AWB? The feds have NEVER looked out for gun rights. All they have done is try to restrict them more and more. Under Republicans new MG's got banned, import bans, and GWB said he'd sign the AWB back into law if it came across his desk. At least we got a couple court victories, and even that was by ONE vote. I don't feel that our government is fulfilling its primary purpose of protecting our rights. Instead they try to erode them at every opportunity, and both parties do it. I don't really trust either party to look out for my rights. Both parties support income redistribution which means they don't think you have the right to the fruits of your labor. They just let you keep some of it so you don't get too mad.
But no I don't think the US has the market cornered when it comes to freedoms. Most of our freedoms are just a memory now. I can't even go for a damn 10 minute drive without seeing police all over the place ready to write me a ticket for any little thing. Somehow we can afford to keep so many LE writing traffic tickets but can't keep illegals out. Another failure of the primary purposes of government (protecting our sovereignty) but I guess there's no money in keeping illegals out, and our government sees them as a future voting block to pay more taxes. They need a lot more people who won't be using SS for 20-30 years to prop that ponzi scheme up.
Can't argue with much of that either. Well said.
If you want more freedom in our country than you need to look outside the typical mainstream Republicans & Democrats. Personally, I think that the philosophy of the Libertarians/Constitutionalists is more inline with how this country was started and I'm definitely in favor of giving them a shot. Although I may not agree with everything Ron Paul said during his campaign, his ideas are much more inline with what I'd consider a free country than what we've experienced for the past 50+ years.
The "usual suspects" are already involved in this thread, myself included, and I'd just remind everyone to keep it on track and have a grown up conversation about freedom in our country. There can be a lot learned from this type of conversation without insulting one another.
Another one that chaps my ass is when someone says we are truly free because we can own our own land.
Really? Well that may be true to a certain point, it is also completely false.
If I were to live in a subdivision and I paid cash for my property and my dwelling. You would think I could do whatever I damned well please to my house. After all it is a free country right. Wrong! I'm not allowed to change my oil in my car. I'm only allowed to have my garage door open two hours out of the week. I am not allowed to have any cars parked in my driveway. I am only allowed to plant certain bushes in my front yard. I am not allowed to have a fence. I'm not allowed to park on the street in front of the property that I own, even though it is not posted. I'm not allowed to have a birthday party, because that would require either people parking in my driveway or on my street.
Who are these people to tell me what I can and can't do to the house that I paid for? My neighbor bought an F350 pickup truck. You know the big diesel truck. Well apparently someone complained about how loud it was. They were then told they could not drive the truck that they legally own in the subdivision. They refused to get rid of the truck and then there was a lien put on their house for $25 a day that they drove the truck home.
I think that pissed me off more than them.
Another one that chaps my ass is when someone says we are truly free because we can own our own land.
Read up on eminent domain if you really want to get pissed.
PrivateCitizen
08-17-10, 16:02
I think it is helpful to define what freedom really is. It may seem obvious but isn't so much in literal terms.
Freedom is what the government or ruling entity gives you. Freedom is a relative illusion as it is an arbitrary allowance.
Freedom can be stripped at any time as its very existence is contingent on someone 'allowing' you to have it.
Liberty is that in which you are 'free' to do what you will.
As evidenced by many of your points, freedom is most definitely in danger in the nation as never before. Slow erosion is vile.
Another one that chaps my ass is when someone says we are truly free because we can own our own land.
Really? Well that may be true to a certain point, it is also completely false.
If I were to live in a subdivision and I paid cash for my property and my dwelling. You would think I could do whatever I damned well please to my house. After all it is a free country right. Wrong! I'm not allowed to change my oil in my car. I'm only allowed to have my garage door open two hours out of the week. I am not allowed to have any cars parked in my driveway. I am only allowed to plant certain bushes in my front yard. I am not allowed to have a fence. I'm not allowed to park on the street in front of the property that I own, even though it is not posted. I'm not allowed to have a birthday party, because that would require either people parking in my driveway or on my street.
Who are these people to tell me what I can and can't do to the house that I paid for? My neighbor bought an F350 pickup truck. You know the big diesel truck. Well apparently someone complained about how loud it was. They were then told they could not drive the truck that they legally own in the subdivision. They refused to get rid of the truck and then there was a lien put on their house for $25 a day that they drove the truck home.
I think that pissed me off more than them.
A subpoint to that would be whether or not you actually can own your own land. Try not paying property taxes and let me know how that works out for you...
A subpoint to that would be whether or not you actually can own your own land. Try not paying property taxes and let me know how that works out for you...
yep.. i rent my privately owned land from the county, apparently.
RancidSumo
08-17-10, 17:00
In regards to what freedom is, I believe that freedom is the ability to exercise, unrestricted, your rights to life and property. Neither of these is a guarantee however. You do not have a guarantee that you will be able to live or obtain any property. Rather these rights are the right to pursue these things and not to have another forcibly take them from you.
In the real world what this translates too is the right to, as Heinlein put it, "bargain in a free marketplace". The government however has time and time again violated this most basic right with restrictions against being able to exercise this fully. I can't go to a local shop and buy a machine gun, rocket launcher, or grenade. I can't buy a larger tank size for my toilet or a higher output shower head. I should be able to own anything I damn well please so long as it isn't stolen or being used in an aggressive fashion but, since I am not free, I cannot.
Additionally, a government should not have any rights that an individual does not because it is nothing more than a group of individuals. Simply because some people decide to band together does not give them rights above and beyond everyone else. As such, a government should not be able to take my property or my life unless I forfeit those things (ie. by stealing from another or by taking another's life). In either of those cases, if it is alright for a government to take ones property or life as punishment, then it is alright for any individual to do so.
The only truly free society is an anarchy because all governments, by their very nature use aggression and force to coerce their subjects. This is incompatible with freedom.
Belmont31R
08-17-10, 17:24
yep.. i rent my privately owned land from the county, apparently.
Yep and they would seize it to pay a 5k tax bill of whatever, and you'd still be stuck paying the mortgage on it since the mortgage is in your name. They would then own it, and you'd still have to pay for it.
Belmont31R
08-17-10, 17:27
I think it is helpful to define what freedom really is. It may seem obvious but isn't so much in literal terms.
Freedom is what the government or ruling entity gives you. Freedom is a relative illusion as it is an arbitrary allowance.
Freedom can be stripped at any time as its very existence is contingent on someone 'allowing' you to have it.
Liberty is that in which you are 'free' to do what you will.
As evidenced by many of your points, freedom is most definitely in danger in the nation as never before. Slow erosion is vile.
I think rights and freedoms are something everyone is born with but if you want to keep them you have to fight to keep them. Some people choose to accept a certain amount of erosion on their rights and freedoms. If you don't fight for freedom someone will take it from you.
I think rights and freedoms are something everyone is born with but if you want to keep them you have to fight to keep them. Some people choose to accept a certain amount of erosion on their rights and freedoms. If you don't fight for freedom someone will take it from you.
Ahh now we are in a catch 22. If we were to try and fight for our freedoms, then we would be seen as traitors or terrorists. Just like the Militia that was arrested in Michigan a few months ago. They were just talking about standing up for our freedoms and look what happened to them.
RancidSumo
08-17-10, 17:41
And that is precisely why we are not free*. You stand up for your freedoms and a huge monster with unlimited resources devoted to ruining your life steps in and works its magic. Until many more people realize that their freedoms are being trampled and decide to stand up for it, we are screwed.
*Note that I am speaking of people standing up for their freedoms being prosecuted. Not necessarily the "militia" group you spoke of as I have not followed that closely enough to know what has been going on.
Don't get me wrong I still like it here. But I just have my doubts about us actually truly being a free country. ANYMORE.
I am totally with you. We need to get things back on track. Still, there is nowhere I want to move to, but our freedom and liberty are severely curtailed.
PrivateCitizen
08-17-10, 19:16
I think rights and freedoms are something everyone is born with but if you want to keep them you have to fight to keep them. Some people choose to accept a certain amount of erosion on their rights and freedoms. If you don't fight for freedom someone will take it from you.
I don't disagree and wholeheartedly stand with you in that they need to be defend … daily it seems.
I was just pointing out that as a matter of definition freedom and liberty are not the same thing. Freedom implies you have something to be 'free' from. Liberty is the power to act as one pleases and does not necessarily acknowledge the existence of any authority.
It is a fine distinction, just making it a point as it is clear our freedom is being usurped … rather aggressively anymore.
Cagemonkey
08-17-10, 19:50
If you want more freedom in our country than you need to look outside the typical mainstream Republicans & Democrats. Personally, I think that the philosophy of the Libertarians/Constitutionalists is more inline with how this country was started and I'm definitely in favor of giving them a shot. Although I may not agree with everything Ron Paul said during his campaign, his ideas are much more inline with what I'd consider a free country than what we've experienced for the past 50+ years.
The "usual suspects" are already involved in this thread, myself included, and I'd just remind everyone to keep it on track and have a grown up conversation about freedom in our country. There can be a lot learned from this type of conversation without insulting one another.I agree. I'm sick of seeing the same old retread politicians. Romney's now a conservative. Ya right. He was the closest thing Massachusetts was going to get as a conservative, but that doesn't count for much. We have to reboot the country. Get back to the Constitution and being a Republic. Re affirm the Declaration of Independence and the 10th Amendment. Amend sec 1 of the 14th Amendment. Repeal the 16th, 17th and 26th Amendments. Leave the Electoral College alone. Create a non politically biased public education system. Teach American History that isn't PC. This is just a start in the right direction.
Okay SteyrAUG I hope you're taking notes for when you run for President. You know what issues are truly on the American Peoples minds.
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