View Full Version : Need suggestions on a Martial Art to pursue
Gunfighter 9
08-17-10, 17:55
I recently re-entered the world of Corrections. In just the last three weeks we have had two staff members assaulted, and 5 or 6 inmate on inmate assaults. I realize that the PPCT they taught us in the academy is fair, but I don't have any where to practice it. I would like to start taking martial arts again, but I don't want to waste time learning useless techniques such as high kicks, etc. I also don't want to focus on closed fist strikes, as I have seen too many people break knuckles while using them to bet my ass on them. Any suggestions? I like the PPCT stuff but no one teaches it accept the department, and I won't have any refresher training till June of next year. Thanks.
NC Buckeye
08-17-10, 18:52
Alex Haddox's Podcast "Practical Defense 102 - How to Select a Martial Art, Studio and Instructor" is the best description I have heard (It is a great podcast top subscribe to, too).
Here is a direct link to download the audio.
http://media.libsyn.com/media/practicaldefense/Practical_Defense_102_-_How_to_Select_a_Martial_Art_Studio_and_Instructor.m4v
I think Brazilian Jiu Jitsu would be ideal. I can count on one hand the incidences were I've thrown a punch working security, but I cannot count the incidences where I've used BJJ even if I remove my socks:p
Check out ISR MATRIX, not a "Martial Art" per se. Back when I did MMA a few of their instructors came to the gym and taught a course. I recall multiple times working nightclub security where something I specifically learned at ISR MATRIX saved my hide. http://www.isrmatrix.org/
ETA:semi-redundant statements, but when anybody asks for recommendations on hand to hand self defense/getting someone under control, I find that I always recommend BJJ.
When I was a teenager my dad put me into Shaolin Tsu style Kung Fu where I spent years learning traditional style martial arts under the auspices of Grand Master Simon. The major benefits where the control tactics and pressure points. Otherwise the kicks, most punches, and most throws are not suitable in real street fighting ( the theories work but when applied are hard to achieve under high stress situations).
Now, I dont want to get into a practice makes perfect argument. I studied when I was a teen and now I am near 30 so many of the skills have been lost over the last decade.
When I was 20 I put myself in a Russian System class at Eastside Aikido in Bellevue WA. For the short time ( 1 Yr) that I studied, the lessons learned have been the most helpfull to me even to this day. I occasionaly have to go at it with people in my custody and when I do the training between the two styles has been invaluable.
My suggestions from my little bit of experiance are Krav Maga (studied from books), Combat Sambo/ Systema, BJJ, and or Hapkido ( also studied from books, cheaper than actual classes).
My measly .02 cents
Gunfighter 9
08-18-10, 06:48
Thanks for all the replies. I am kind of leaning towards Krav Maga. Can anyone tell me from experience if Krav is applicable to real world encounters, and if the techniques would be useful without focusing on closed fist strikes. I prefer to use palm heel or hammer fists as IMO they are less likely to leave me with a broken knuckle. (saw this happen in an inmate on inmate assault this past saturday)
One of the gals in my Russian System class also studied Krav Maga in another local school. From my experience the style was very effective in multiple person combat. I can say she was far ahead of several of the men in the class with history from other disciplines. The experience from sparring with her gave me the interest of looking into Krav Maga.
I have 10 years of experience in BJJ, Muay Thai, and MMA. I also spent about 20 years prior training in various traditional martial arts that were severely lacking in realistic training, thus the techniques and methodologies were unsuitable with violent, resisting opponents.
Start looking at places near you that teach: MMA (Mixed Martial Arts), BJJ (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu), Muay Thai, Boxing (combine this with grappling training), Western Wrestling, Greco-Roman Wrestling, Submission Wrestling, Sambo, or Judo (particularly Kosen or Kodokan Judo). Find out how many people at each place have fought in a ring or cage (MMA), or competed in major grappling tournaments (Mundials, Grappler's Quest, NAGA, National Submission Wrestling Championships, Copa Atlantica, etc). If there's several fighters/competitors there, you've probably found a suitable place to develop the skills you're seeking. If you find some guys that were NCAA wrestlers training there, that's a good sign, too.
Training to fight unarmed requires considerable conditioning and LOTS of time on the mat rolling full steam with other guys trying to slam you, pound your head in, and choke the hell out of you. If your prior experience in martial arts is Tae Kwon Do, Kung Fu, Aikido, etc, you'll be in for a rude awakening. The vast majority of people that come through the door wanting to learn to fight (often after seeing UFC, Pride, or Ultimate Fighter) are usually winded long before completing the 20-30 minutes of conditioning, totally lost during the 30-40 minutes of drills, take a severe beating during the 30 minutes of sparring (rarely lasting through 10 minutes of sparring before total exhaustion sets in and they want to puke), and they never come back after that first class.
If you want to pursue legit training, be prepared for lots of pain and fatigue and getting tooled for a while. You should go at least 3 times a week, and take up a serious regimen for strength and conditioning on the days you aren't training. If you stick with it, you'll build the conditioning and pain tolerance to make it through an entire class, and eventually pick up the skills and attributes needed to start controlling, pounding, and submitting opponents.
Have studied Shorin-Ryu, Muay Thai, Kali, and Tai Chi Chuan for a little over 17 years now. Considering the environment you will be in, I think Kali will serve you the best; Close-quarters fighting, possible WEAPON INVOLVEMENT, grappling/take downs. Conditioning is a must as well to a certain degree. I find that the reason MMA fighters NEED the conditioning is that they are not allowed to target soft-targets, (eye-gouging, throat and groin strikes) which would pretty much end the fight.
And not to downplay BJJ, but it is a weight-class dependant style and only effective one-on-one when on the ground.
How many prison inmates do you know who will fight fair??
Be prepared to have this thread consist of several pages of back and forth as to why what art is better. Whatever art you take, stay safe and eat some popcorn while you read.
Von Rheydt
08-18-10, 09:36
Firstly depends how nice you have to be to your 'potential client group'. Do you want to potentially maim (I stress the potentially) or just restrain.
Classic martial arts are pretty much about form and technique..........some instructors have a 'smell of blood' attitude and like to see good fights, but normally based within the boundaries of the system. Lot's of them have the line of "stick we me and I'll teach you a secret ninja vibrating finger death strike", load of bollocks.
Krav Maga is pretty damn devastating.
The Russian Sambo system is effective.
Can I also suggest you read a good anatomy and physiology book and learn something about the bodies nervous system.
To other officianados this does not mean I don't hold with other styles, I have studied judo, wing chun, escrima and kendo. But, the really nasty stuff I learned from the military.
I'm in Taekwondo and Krav Maga right now. The Taekwondo is mainly for the family. We all are doing it. My kids are 10, 12 and it's good for them. Wife is doing it also. So far I can definitely say that a traditional martial art probably won't suit your needs. Krav Maga, as mentioned a couple of times already, will probably cover what you are looking for. I wrestled for 12 years and when the fight goes to the ground it has been invaluable. BJJ will be next on my list of disciplines. The more well rounded I can be the better off I will be in a wider range of situations.
Cecil Burch
08-18-10, 11:53
And not to downplay BJJ, but it is a weight-class dependant style and only effective one-on-one when on the ground.
That might be the funniest thing I have read in a good long while.
Krav mega and Systema if you want to end fights. Especially if you are out numbered or could be in an ambush situation. Either would serve you well. If you hit a wall in one go the other. Some grapling techniques never hurt either.
Honestly, if you live near a MMA center they will have hybrid defense classes that blend several styles into a good defense class. Also try and be a part of a school that pairs you up and actually strikes each other. Not that gentle toss to the ground this is what you do crap. If you drill for years but never use it under stress(physical, emotional, etc) it's worthless when someones beating your brains out of your ears.
Almost any martial art/sport that is applied within it's own orthodoxy in a modern weapons based environment will have significant holes. I use BJJ heavily within my coursework which is always contextually underscored with weapons, size disparities, and multiples. There is simply no better art to draw from that teaches efficient movement in the horizontal plane. The positional dominance strategies of BJJ translate perfectly into the ability to get off the ground safely and access a firearm when grounded. That being said, the rub is in finding an instructor who can teach what is and is not relevant within a given system.
cant believe i'm the first to say this...
start with wrestling.. learn to shoot, get guys off their feet and how to pin 'em. this is the most applicable shit you're going need/learn. breaking up fights, subduing attackers, shaming drunk assholes without breaking their faces, etc. then join up with a local MMA club and learn how to add knees, elbows, feet and fists.
this is probably the fastest and cheapest way to learn how to street fight, and what my pro-fighter buddy suggested i do for myself and my boys.
but if you're just looking for a glorified yoga with small amounts of testosterone added, the asian "martial arts" will all give you that.
cant believe i'm the first to say this...
start with wrestling.. learn to shoot, get guys off their feet and how to pin 'em. this is the most applicable shit you're going need/learn. breaking up fights, subduing attackers, shaming drunk assholes without breaking their faces, etc. then join up with a local MMA club and learn how to add knees, elbows, feet and fists.
this is probably the fastest and cheapest way to learn how to street fight, and what my pro-fighter buddy suggested i do for myself and my boys.
but if you're just looking for a glorified yoga with small amounts of testosterone added, the asian "martial arts" will all give you that.
^
Great advice here.
Then...
-Jeet Kun do (My favorite by far, incorporates many styles)
and
-Krav Maga
I also don't want to focus on closed fist strikes, as I have seen too many people break knuckles while using them to bet my ass on them.
In my limited amount of Krav training, I saw quite a bit of emphasis on palm/heel and hammer strikes. There's nothing fancy or "showy" about it, it's all business.
OP, what restraint,impact weapons are you permitted to use. Find a system that utilizes these tools as well as fighting unarmed.
cant believe i'm the first to say this...
start with wrestling..
You weren't, I suggested a few types of Wrestling up above. You make an excellent observation. Learning to fight well in the clinch is key because you control whether the fight stays on the feet or goes to the ground (with you dictating what position you're in if taking it to the ground). This is why clinch/tie-up methods from Wrestling, Judo, and Muay Thai are so important. Think of it as trigger control in regards to shooting.
Up above, someone mentioned BJJ only being effective one-on-one. ANY method of unarmed fighting is poor against multiple opponents, not just BJJ. There are an overwhelming number of stimuli and variables to track and account for when fighting more than one opponent. Getting rushed or piled on by multiple people will overcome anyone that's unarmed.
Time for me to head to MMA class.
I stated "one on one", on the ground.
.
And not to downplay BJJ, but it is a weight-class dependant style and only effective one-on-one when on the ground.
I will politely disagree with this. Jiu Jitsu literally means "gentle art" because such a huge amount of it is based on leverage, not strength. Many a time I've been tapped out by girls that were 5'4 and maybe 80 pounds. Granted they'd been doing this for years.
Also take a look at the first few UFC events. The Gracies were tapping out guys twice their size and above. I will agree with you that some martial arts are very weight class dependent, but the beauty of BJJ is that a much smaller, weaker individual can put a great deal of hurt/control a much larger individual.
Also, Von Rheydt talked about what the purpose would be, i.e to possibly injure/kill someone, or merely to gain control of a non-compliant individual. With BJJ, you could put someone in a lock just to control them, do the same lock but harder to give them a little pain and let them know what will happen if they don't comply, or just all out completely destroy their body.
I firmly believe that if you train with a well-respected MMA gym, with good instructors, you will find exactly what you are looking for.
Oh Boy, another "whose kung fu is stronger" thread :suicide2:
If this is for corrections, my honest advice is to take a mix of a striking art and a grappling art. Why?
B/C BJJ and wrestling give you some ground control training and ground fighting awareness- enough to know that being on the ground sucks, especially in a street/prison fight environment (hard floors, no rules, uniform with belt vs. gi). Being able to control someone from the side or top, and knowing how to get out of the basic holds that you'd find yourself in in a correctional setting is key. southnarc, who knows his stuff in case you don't know, is dead on in his assessment, in my humble opinion.
A striking art like Muay Thai is useful for close quarter hand, knee, and elbow strikes, but you will likely find that too much of your training time will be spent on long range kicks, which won't help in your situation. A more combat oriented art might excel here; Krav, for instance. Don't sell sport striking arts short. Sport oriented striking arts (boxing and MT) offer one thing that Krav and karate can't: experience getting punched in the face. This is useful- even priceless- in an L/E or correctional setting. Ask me how I know.
Something else to think about is weapons defense. I like Filipino arts for this. Escrima/Kali/Arnis was developed with the intention that the skills translate from empty hand to stick (you see those in corrections, on both sides) and knife (hmmm...) work. Moreover, these techniques were intended to be used in a more close quarter setting, and many schools will incorporate ground work, or at least offer BJJ classes alongside.
If all this sounds like a plug for JKD, well, it kind of is. But, instead of looking all around for a JKD school, you can piecemeal it all together, as long as you understand what attributes you'll want and need.
We had a thread on this a few months ago, if memory serves. I'm too lazy to post it; find the link yourself.:D
PS: tampam4, i'd be careful of using the argument that smaller people can tap out larger people a la early UFC. This is true for almost any sport martial art: skill beats size. The contrast isn't so clear when you're fighting for real, though.
However, with the advent of the UFC mass marketing hype, MMA is now available to the masses, and many mopes in and out of the hoosegow have some sort of ground-fighting training, either formally or informally. And these guys are big, strong, and have been fighting in some form or another all their lives. Size vs skill issues go out the window. Skill is great, but size, strength, pain tolerance, and angry buddies can make up for it somewhat.
These unarmed martial arts/self defense threads often deteriorate and REALLY badly.
Let's start by asking what martial arts self defense places are within a distance that you are willing to drive and have classes that meet your schedule and budget.
If you don't mind saying so for Persec, where do you live? There is a good chance some people may know places close to you and instructors in your area.
I've done the ISR Matrix course twice and it is top notch--especially for arrest& control and breaking up fights and corrections. I've also done other thigns that are top notch--but the ISR Matrix was the most LEO oriented.
And let me give a big shout out to Southnarc.
I think that's all I have to write in this thread because my chi is feeling really weak right now. :)
Gunfighter 9
08-19-10, 06:35
OP, what restraint,impact weapons are you permitted to use. Find a system that utilizes these tools as well as fighting unarmed.
I am issued one pair of cuffs and a radio. The inmates on the other hand have access to improvised knives, broom and mop handles, and the good ole' lock in a sock. They don't target staff specifically very often, but I don't want to hedge my life on that. Unfortunately I am kind of limited in choices for training around here. There is one place that teaches Krav, but he also teaches Tae Kwon Do so I was a little worried about how legit he is. There is also an MMA place so I may check out them both and see how it goes. The rest of the places are all traditional, Karate, Aikido, Judo, etc. I did study Judo for about seven years as a teenager, so I have some ground fighting skills, but the take downs are entirely too complicated to use in a real fight IMO. I live in Lincoln, NE and it seems kind of limited in choices in this kind of training. I did look at the ISR Matrix course, but I didn't see any being offered near me. I guess I will keep checking it and see what else comes up. Thanks for all the info guys.
Gunfighter9, just because the Krav instructor also does Taekwondo doesn't mean he isn't legit. I do both also with the same instructor and don't feel cheated in anyway. One good thing about it for me is that when we spar in Taekwondo there are a couple of guys from Krav there also. Are instructor let's us go full bore when we spar. There has been a few times when I've been kicked in the head so hard I have had to turn my head gear back around to be able to see. His philosophy is give it as good as you get it. So we usually do not hold back when sparring in Taekwondo. You may want to check him out if he is the only Krav instructor in your area. I would pursue only the Krav Maga though.
There is also an MMA place so I may check out them both and see how it goes. The rest of the places are all traditional, Karate, Aikido, Judo, etc. I did study Judo for about seven years as a teenager, so I have some ground fighting skills, but the take downs are entirely too complicated to use in a real fight IMO. I live in Lincoln, NE and it seems kind of limited in choices in this kind of training.
Some Judo takedowns are quite applicable such as morote gari (double leg takedown) and ouchi gari (inside trip takedown). Though some Judo throws momentarily place your back to your opponent, so you could be in for a bad day if you hose the attempt.
If you're talking about Lincoln MMA (http://www.lincolnmma.com), that place will cultivate the skills you want. I wouldn't waste my time with the other places you mentioned. Good luck, dude.
Gunfighter, not that I am in the know dealing with things related to corrections work, but I cant believe they dont issue you guys a baton/ASP of some sort.
Gunfighter 9
08-19-10, 12:25
Gunfighter, not that I am in the know dealing with things related to corrections work, but I cant believe they dont issue you guys a baton/ASP of some sort.
It is pretty common place in Corrections. The only state I know of that really takes officer safety seriously when it comes to corrections is CA. In, AZ we were at least issued OC.
Krav Maga will serve you well. I've trained at it for almost 22 years. Long before it was mainstream. My first teacher was a cop that I worked with who was a former IDF "black bag" guy and instructor. Several other guys and me would meet three times a week in the precinct gym or at his house and smack each other around.
It's a no nonsense style of fighting that seeks to end the confrontation as rapidly as possible. You can learn it quickly and along with learning some Chin-Na joint lock techniques (great for stopping people who flip out as the cuffs are going on or who passively resist), it's the best thing I ever studied and has gotten me though several ugly assaults. It is quick, powerful and ruthless. Just like you need to be when the wolves attack. Be safe.
Not to knock anyone elses style or choice, but I am really fond of Chinese Kenpo (not to be confused with Kempo)...
Tons of effective techniques for dealing with one or more attackers...
I havn't read every reply so far, so I don't know if anyone has suggested this yet, but I've become a big fan of MAC, the new(ish) army combatives program. I got level one training at Basic, and overall it seems to be an effective "practical" style. There's not much at all in the way of fancy moves- just techniques that, as we learned, can be brutally effective.
For comparison purposes, it borrows alot from muy thai, judo, and wrestling, with it's own sort of emphasis on modern combat scenrios.
Other levels of certification even include techniques you can use while carrying a weapon. We drilled with M16s, which are a little large for what we where doing, but the demonstration was done with an M4, which was perfect.
If you can find a manual or training video for MAC, or even better a training center, I would highly reccommend it- some of the most useful training the Army has given me.
Gunfighter my first three years on the job were as a CO in a county jail so I completely understand your needs. I think the first thing to do is look at what your needs are.
1) Getting up off the floor. As I stated, there's probably not a better system than BJJ for learning ground mobility. If you can find a class start training. Concentrate on moving your hips and escaping from the bottom. Don't worry so much about submissions. I've been doing BJJ since about '92 on and off but I'm only ranked a three stripe blue and the reason for that is that I'm not a big finisher. I'll probably never attain a black belt simply because I'm not interested in submissions unless they are relevant to accessing a weapon. With that being said, most everyone I roll with cannot keep me on my back, pass my legs, get me off them if I take a top position, or keep me from acessing a weapon. That's all I want from BJJ.
2) Not getting tangled up and taken down. Judo and Greco-Roman are king here. The most relevant thing you can get from Judo is a good foot sweep game. I wouldn't focus on commited throws or any technique that has you turning your back to him. However the ability to dump a guy quick and stay on your feet is really great in a correctional environment. Greco Roman will give you the ability to get unentangled and take a dominant position for escaping. Focus on arm control. I tend to stay away from things like collar ties because any time we lose arm control, those hands are usually creeping towards a weapon. Focus on a good underhook/arm tie game that gives you the ability to take his back and escape. Here's some vid for reference.
http://www.vimeo.com/4617754
http://www.vimeo.com/5301613
As far as striking goes, I'd stick to something simple like a good cycling hammerfist. Keeps you from breaking your hands and has plenty of power. If you get McCann's DVDs he has a good section on how to do that. You don't really need a martial arts school to learn that.
The main thing with Judo, Wrestling and BJJ is that you are training in a pressure based non-consensual model. I can't over-emphasize the importance of that. You can get away with anything when your partner let's you in a training environment. If where ever you're training doesn't have that validation model, then you're setting yourself up for failure IMO.
Failure2Stop
08-22-10, 14:13
The main thing with Judo, Wrestling and BJJ is that you are training in a pressure based non-consensual model. I can't over-emphasize the importance of that. You can get away with anything when your partner let's you in a training environment. If where ever you're training doesn't have that validation model, then you're setting yourself up for failure IMO.
While I have nowhere near SouthNarc's credibity in contact distance fighting, I completely agree with him, especially on the last little bit I quoted. That statement should be your test if something is really worth pursuing: it has to work when the other guy doesn't want it to. There isn't much less than structural stress/destruction that works on highly motivated opponents.
More important than what martial art is what instructor. There are many roads that lead to the same destination.
NCPatrolAR
08-23-10, 19:42
More important than what martial art is what instructor. There are many roads that lead to the same destination.
While true to a certain extent; some martial arts are better suited for certain tasks than others. While you can possibly find a Tai Chi instructor that can actually fight; these types of instructors are extremely rare and one would be better off to spend the time in the gym training in a functional system than painting the fence while waiting on Mr Miyagi to appear.
VooDoo6Actual
08-24-10, 01:29
Mindset & Fuc-u-up come to my mind.
Use what's useful, discard what is not.
Use your unique attributes.
No MA has it all or is complete despite the dialogue and claims.
ALWAYS keep situational awareness paramount and DO NOT give up Tactical Mobility unless you are certain of environment, furtive threats etc.
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e225/teehee321/DSC00091-1.jpg
spelingmastir
09-02-10, 11:58
I'll preface this by saying that I have been doing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for about six years and judo for about two. I appreciate the "art" of both but BJJ more so. Still, my choice for the "best" self defence art is judo. Most BJJ schools are seriously lacking in takedown skills, a very important part of the game. Judo may be less sophisticated on the ground but still works there. I know cops who are good judoka who have and do use throws in the line of duty. I plan to have my kids do judo before they ever try jiu-jitsu.
I have an associate who came over the Filipino arts a couple years ago. Prior to that, he was a classically-trained judoka and boxer. He worked the psycho ward in a large, max security prison for 25 years. His comments to me have been that judo served him very well. He doesn't have much good to say about BJJ in that environment. Too much rolling around on the ground.
Some Judo takedowns are quite applicable such as morote gari (double leg takedown) and ouchi gari (inside trip takedown). Though some Judo throws momentarily place your back to your opponent, so you could be in for a bad day if you hose the attempt.
This echoes what my associate said. He's also a big fan of some of the outside trips/throws. Apparently, dumping someone on their back or head onto concrete tends to take the fight out of them...
Krav Maga hands down. My 2 cents.
NCPatrolAR
09-02-10, 19:15
Recognize that whichever system you choose to train in; you are going to have to spend time tweaking it to make it your system. This means if you are training in Judo (as an example), your Judo is unique to you and meets your goals in training. This could mean an emphasis on non gi-dependent throws, increased newaza with a focus on escaping from positions of disadvantage, etc.
If you are working in a DOC environment I'd make sure you have a healthy dose of skill when it comes to dealing with people armed with makeshift weapons. This can be accomplsihed through a variety of sources also.
Im going to cast another vote for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Im a LEO in the Hampton Roads area of Virginia and Ive used BJJ countless times at work. Im 5'8" and about 175lbs WITH all of my gear on. Ive been heavily involved in Combat Submission Wrestling(basically MMA) and BJJ for the better part of a decade. As much as ive learned about striking from CSW, Ive never used it in a confrontation(use of force policy prohibits effective striking). But Ive used BJJ in situations ranging from simply restraining someone, to a knock down drag out fight following a pursuit. All of those individuals were larger than me and I was able to control and subdue every single one, by myself, using BJJ.
My suggestion would be to research local schools that teach BJJ and look for some specific things. The best thing would be a certified training center under the official Gracie Academy. Official CTC's teach the Gracie Combatives program which is BJJ geared specifically towards a violent confrontation. Gracie Combatives also covers how to get the fight to the ground which is often overlooked at BJJ schools. If you cant find that then find a school that also teaches MMA so you can work some striking into your BJJ training. Not to improve your own striking, but to learn how to negate someones elses while you attempt to control them. If neither of those are an option then train wherever you can and supplement your training by joining gracie university online or ordering the Gracie Combatives DVD's and finding a partner to train the techniques with.
sniperfrog
09-08-10, 15:07
I would agree about learning a grappling style like BJJ, Sambo, wrestling, Judo, etc...Most of the time your going to be trying to control an inmate not kickbox with them. That said you need to learn defense against punches/kicks as well. Muay Thai is great because of the clinch work and knee and elbow strikes. Some BJJ schools have become a little too sport orientated and leave out the true self defense stuff. The Rorion Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is geared more towards self defense and he has a great LE/Military course which focuses on things someone in that field will encounter. Also keep in mind that techniques that work in a gi or t-shirt/shorts don't always work when you have a belt on with gear (radio, flashlight, cuffs or whatever), so you need to test some techniques with your duty gear on.
I would also recommend the Fillipino Martial Arts - Kali, Escrima, and Arnis (all the same thing). It does alot of weapons based stuff like stick and knife fighting as well as improvised weapons. FMA also has grappling, punching/kicking as well as joint locks. Take a look at the Dog Brothers Martial Arts or Pekiti Tersia Kali on YouTube. The Dog Brothers test everything in sparring sessions which are usually pretty brutal. Pekiti Tersia Kali is used by Fillipino military and law enforcement and even has alot of firearms techniques.
If you can find a good Jeet Kun Do school than that would be ideal. Most JKD schools with Inosanto lineage will also teach Kali, Muay Thai, BJJ and/or Shoot fighting.
Worst case you can't find a good MA school than try to workout with some wrestlers and take up boxing. Anything that uses live sparring in a dynamic environment is better than drilling techniques with a compliant training partner. Many times you find the techniques don't work against someone going 100%.
This is my 1st post on this forum although I've been reading it for some time, mainly to get good weapons advice and techniques. I've been a full time LEO in a major city for the past 24 years and worked in "corrections" for a while before, so on this subject I do have a qualified opinion.
My "Martial Arts" experience began 45 years ago when my father initially taught me Judo. Since then I traveled (Army brat) a lot and studied many martial arts, obtaining at least "black belt" status in: Judo, Aiki-Jujitsu, Karate, Gung-fu, and Bagua, with experience in Boxing and wrestling. This isn't meant to boast, just to state a qualified opinion.
Through my travel and work experience (LEO in patrol, SWAT, Narcotic's, Organized Crime, etc.), I found that by far, my knowledge of Judo, Jujitsu, and wrestling served me best and saved my butt most often, especially with multiple opponents. The ability to maintain your own balance while being able to disrupt the opponent's is crucial in CQC, which Judo and Jujitsu excel at. When you gain usable techniques it is totally up to you how and how hard you put the opponent down. Landing on your head or dislocating your shoulder tends to take the fight out of everyone.
One of the most important elements (I found out the hard way) is the ability to maintain mobility while disbalancing the "bad guy". Like with many other CQC skills, if you become a stationary target you are much more likely to be hit, so practice any you choose with a focus toward constant movement. I believe that a strong foundation in Judo or Jujitsu will enhance any other practice you may choose, IMHO. Good Luck
dookie1481
10-20-10, 12:32
If you are interested in this topic I highly recommend you register at Total Protection Interactive. I think it's SouthNarc's board (or at least he posts there a lot). It is a wealth of information.
Jay
I recently re-entered the world of Corrections.
I've been training TMA, BJJ, MMA, MT and FMA for 13+ years and I am also a LEO.
I love to roll, but BJJ is not the training you need - rolling for a tap or even GnP is NOT where you want to be in a cellblock, believe me. The ground game needs to be addressed, but it does not need to be focused on for your career.
Krav is a good place to start, or MT. Explosive violence is what's gonna take you home at night. Remember that schools vary in how reality based they are, so make sure you watch a class and meet the instructor before making a decision. If your BS meter starts going off in either case, walk away.
I might also recommend some decent blade trianing (I prefer AMOK! but there are a few out there).
Good luck, stay safe.
I'll throw in my vote for Systema. I've never studied Krav Maga, but Systema is similar in principle from what I hear. I only tried it because it's taught at the MMA gym I go to. It turns out that I was able to put some of the movements and techniques to use at work. This gym occasionally emphasizes multiple attackers and defense when handicapped, like by a broken hand for example.
I've never studied martial arts, but have been doing Krav for a while. Krav presents itself as the most natural form of self defense training. The moves are simple, natural - not "artistic". The concept is defend, attack, finish and remove yourself. I highly recommend pursing Krav. What's more, there is a law enforcement specific training within Krav. Not all instructors are licensed, but find one and your in luck! http://www.kravmaga.com/programs/law-enforcement-military/
I would also agree with an earlier poster, mix in Judo and Jujitsu for the balance and takedown. That is not Krav's focus and most fights will result in some form of grappling, eventually. Good luck in whatever you choose.
Since you want defense skills fairly fast, start with an enormous boost in confidence and skill by taking either SouthNarc's Practical Unarmed Combat or Insights Training Centre's Unarmed Defense class. What they will teach you in a weekend, takes years to learn in most dojos.
Thanks for all the replies. I am kind of leaning towards Krav Maga. Can anyone tell me from experience if Krav is applicable to real world encounters, and if the techniques would be useful without focusing on closed fist strikes. I prefer to use palm heel or hammer fists as IMO they are less likely to leave me with a broken knuckle. (saw this happen in an inmate on inmate assault this past saturday)
Can you get in trouble for striking an inmate's genitals multiple times before they hit the ground? If not, Krav Maga is a great fit ;)
My $.02 - I've trained in martial arts for near 16 years with most of my efforts in the last 7 being in the "reality based / combatives" vein. I have trained with Southnarc (who's already contributed to this thread) multiple times. It doesn't make me an expert, but it's given me the opportunity to to test myself and see where I am still lacking. Additionally, I'm a cop so have some idea of what is needed and how that differs from what most martial arts offer.
I look at most martial arts in the light of good, better, best. In general, it's good to know something rather than nothing (except for TKD :sarcastic:)
I view Krav Maga as "better". It's better than the standard fare. IMHO KM is a good vehicle for instilling or drawing out an aggressiveness that is often lacking in more traditional martial arts. In short, they train hard. Technique-wise I don't believe they set up the most realistic context in which to train.
Personally, I would look to combat sports as you are training in a pressure based, non-consensual model (to quote Southnarc). These arts can give you the fundamentals that you can integrate into other training venues. You are learning skills and are applying those skills against fully resisting opponents. Progress in these arts is easily measured as you can see the results of your efforts in class.
BJJ, wrestling, Sambo, and Judo focus on controlling your opponent. If you can control them (their movement, their ability to access a weapon, etc...), you can add strikes if needed. This fits in better in dealing with a non-compliant, resistive, or aggressive subject. Striking alone offers little in the way of control, unless you dish out major trauma, which is often less then desirable in most circumstances.
I would also look to training with Southnarc, and has been mentioned checking out TPI. The emphasis is on contextual training, which will result in a paradigm shift for most. Seen through that filter, questions about best martial art and what will work take on a new meaning. The forum is chock full of guys who have asked similar questions and pressure tested what they thought would work. Liberal use of the "search" function over there will yield answers by guys more knowledgeable and articulate than myself.
Master-of-None
10-28-10, 08:28
Check out Rory Miller's book Meditations on Violence. He's got many years in corrections. The book is all about how sport martial arts translate to real, violent interactions. His blog (http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/) is great, too.
Check out Rory Miller's book Meditations on Violence. He's got many years in corrections. The book is all about how sport martial arts translate to real, violent interactions. His blog (http://chirontraining.blogspot.com/) is great, too.
+1
I was just going to say that exact thing. Rory has a TON of information and experience. That book will change your outlook on defending your life vs fighting for other reasons (monkey dance). He also has a lot of great book references in there as well.
Whatever you learn please stay on your feet. I worked in a max/supermax area of our county jail . If you went down you would get stomped,punched ,kicked, etc. by inmates not involved in the fight.
Two cents in no particular order:
Many fights end up on the ground. Nearly all start standing up, and if you do your part they should end standing up.
Krav, Systema, and traditional Combatives of the W.E. Fairbairn type are good for learning opening moves and finishing moves and you should have them in your tool box. However, they very much require that things go according to plan. Should you miss, or your opponent moves, or your opponent requires additional 'treatment' you may not have the tools you need other than to try the same technique again.
You need to learn how to fight in a fluid manner. Boxing, Judo, BJJ, Muy Thai, and JKD emphasize this. I would put some of this in your tool box.
Learn the Brachial Stun to the neck. For LEO's it is damn near perfect. Just keep in mind you may need a back up plan.
Learn how to stay on your feet and control the space around you. Boxing, Judo, Muy Thai and JKD also focus on this.
If you end up on the ground this is very bad. Have a plan. BJJ is without peer on the ground. Traditional wrestling is also very good as long as you learn No Holds Barred / Catch-as-catch-can techniques.
Always keep in mind that people are ROUTINELY beaten to death. ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep this in mind.
When looking for a gym, sparring is essential.
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