9th circus strikes again...

[Vic303]

Heard it on FoxNews today. 9th Circuit Ct overturns Stolen Valor act. Cited 1st Amendment as reason.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/17/appeals-court-panel-law-faking-receipt-military-medals-unconstitutional/?test=latestnews

[ForTehNguyen]

i guess its constitutional to impersonate a cop then

[John_Wayne777]

i guess its constitutional to impersonate a cop then

The courts won't see attempting to pass oneself off as a police officer in the same light as attempting to pass oneself off as a war hero. There are, as far as I know, no records of people committing violent crimes using something like a bronze star with a V device as cover. There have been numerous examples of criminals using impersonation of law enforcement, however.

Given the responsibilities and powers of a LEO, the courts aren't likely to easily dismiss impersonation of a police officer.

[Business_Casual]

Yeah, sure - but what if I lied about building a
mosque - I bet they'd change their tune then!

B_C

[Belmont31R]

The courts won't see attempting to pass oneself off as a police officer in the same light as attempting to pass oneself off as a war hero. There are, as far as I know, no records of people committing violent crimes using something like a bronze star with a V device as cover. There have been numerous examples of criminals using impersonation of law enforcement, however.

Given the responsibilities and powers of a LEO, the courts aren't likely to easily dismiss impersonation of a police officer.



I have similar feelings about this. As long as the person is not trying to obtain benefits (either public or private) they are not really hurting anyone. Sure its very disgraceful, and an insult but thats not exactly illegal. Impersonating an LEO is different because LEO's are representatives of the State/.Gov, have powers and authority, etc. Walking around in a uniform with badges/awards you didn't earn isn't exactly the same thing. I could see it if someone tried to defraud an organization into getting charity benefits, etc. Theres already fraud laws in every state, and that is what these people should be charged with IF they try to use a false military status for personal gain. If you go to a party/reunion dressed in a uniform you aren't exactly trying to defraud anyone out of anything tangible. You're not really depriving anyone of anything just by walking around in a uniform with awards you didn't earn. They may THINK you are something you are not but thats not illegal UNLESS you use that to deprive them of something tangible based on a false pretense. There's quite a bit of legal precedence in this area. If wearing a uniform you didnt earn is illegal lots of little kids will be disappointed on Halloween, and no more movies with actors wearing uniforms. Think of it like this...if I put on one of those cheesy white Salvation Army uniforms am I breaking a law? How about if I put on that uniform, and go stand outside of a store taking people's money because they think Im something I am not.

[Alex V]

I have similar feelings about this. As long as the person is not trying to obtain benefits (either public or private) they are not really hurting anyone. Sure its very disgraceful, and an insult but thats not exactly illegal. Impersonating an LEO is different because LEO's are representatives of the State/.Gov, have powers and authority, etc. Walking around in a uniform with badges/awards you didn't earn isn't exactly the same thing. I could see it if someone tried to defraud an organization into getting charity benefits, etc. Theres already fraud laws in every state, and that is what these people should be charged with IF they try to use a false military status for personal gain. If you go to a party/reunion dressed in a uniform you aren't exactly trying to defraud anyone out of anything tangible. You're not really depriving anyone of anything just by walking around in a uniform with awards you didn't earn. They may THINK you are something you are not but thats not illegal UNLESS you use that to deprive them of something tangible based on a false pretense. There's quite a bit of legal precedence in this area. If wearing a uniform you didnt earn is illegal lots of little kids will be disappointed on Halloween, and no more movies with actors wearing uniforms. Think of it like this...if I put on one of those cheesy white Salvation Army uniforms am I breaking a law? How about if I put on that uniform, and go stand outside of a store taking people's money because they think Im something I am not.


Just playing devil's advocate here don't kill me:

By that line of thinking, I could show up at my HS Reunion dressed as a NJ State Tropper and as long as I don't give anyone a ticket, arrest them, force my way into their house I am not doing anything illegal right?

Somehow I think I would get arested leaving that party...

Honestly, I think putting on awards and a military uniform you did not earn is far worse than puting on a cop uniform you do not belong in. Either way you are dishonoring those who did earn it and either one can be seen as harmless until you eather try to scam someone, of commit a crime otherwise.

I don't understand how the court can say that you can get in trouble to puting on a cop uniform but not a mil uniform. Can't have it both ways.

[JackOSU]

Yet another example of common sense being flushed down the shitter!! :suicide:

[bkb0000]

Just playing devil's advocate here don't kill me:

By that line of thinking, I could show up at my HS Reunion dressed as a NJ State Tropper and as long as I don't give anyone a ticket, arrest them, force my way into their house I am not doing anything illegal right?

Somehow I think I would get arested leaving that party...

Honestly, I think putting on awards and a military uniform you did not earn is far worse than puting on a cop uniform you do not belong in. Either way you are dishonoring those who did earn it and either one can be seen as harmless until you eather try to scam someone, of commit a crime otherwise.

I don't understand how the court can say that you can get in trouble to puting on a cop uniform but not a mil uniform. Can't have it both ways.

you might be arrested, but you would not be prosecuted in Oregon. impersonating requires you to attempt to act under the color of law, in order to be guilty. simply wearing a uniform, or stating that you are a cop, isn't enough. you'd have to write somebody a ticket, or tell somebody to do something, or detain someone, etc.

[bkb0000]

Yet another example of common sense being flushed down the shitter!! :suicide:

no, common sense is recognizing that no matter how dirt-baggish it might be, you cannot prosecute people for lying. i'm with the 9th on this one.

[CarlosDJackal]

i guess its constitutional to impersonate a cop then

Probably not. But you should be okay if you lied about being a 9th Circuit Court Judge though. :D

[CarlosDJackal]

no, common sense is recognizing that no matter how dirt-baggish it might be, you cannot prosecute people for lying. i'm with the 9th on this one.

Yeah, what about committing fraud? How many of those POS received preferential treatment by claiming that they were what they are not?

How many received a discount or free meals or joined Veterans groups by lying about their past? Just sayin'.

[Belmont31R]

Just playing devil's advocate here don't kill me:

By that line of thinking, I could show up at my HS Reunion dressed as a NJ State Tropper and as long as I don't give anyone a ticket, arrest them, force my way into their house I am not doing anything illegal right?

Somehow I think I would get arested leaving that party...

Honestly, I think putting on awards and a military uniform you did not earn is far worse than puting on a cop uniform you do not belong in. Either way you are dishonoring those who did earn it and either one can be seen as harmless until you eather try to scam someone, of commit a crime otherwise.

I don't understand how the court can say that you can get in trouble to puting on a cop uniform but not a mil uniform. Can't have it both ways.


Here is the TX law on it:


§ 37.11. IMPERSONATING PUBLIC SERVANT. (a) A person
commits an offense if he:
(1) impersonates a public servant with intent to
induce another to submit to his pretended official authority or to
rely on his pretended official acts;


So just putting on a uniform isn't illegal. If you put on the uniform, and try to act in an official capacity then its illegal. Lots of people "dress up" in offical looking uniforms. Strippers, Halloween constumes, actors, etc. Its only illegal if you try to act in an official capacity.

Im sure it would be upheld if the person was trying to defraud someone out of something tangible like money, services, benefits, etc. But no walking around in a uniform doesn't fit the legal precedence of "impersonation".

[Belmont31R]

Yeah, what about committing fraud? How many of those POS received preferential treatment by claiming that they were what they are not?

How many received a discount or free meals by convincing hard-working and patriotic individuals they were heroes or even Veterans? Just sayin'.



Thats theft of service.


Again quoting TX law since thats where I live..


Sec. 31.04. THEFT OF SERVICE. (a) A person commits theft of service if, with intent to avoid payment for service that he knows is provided only for compensation:
(1) he intentionally or knowingly secures performance of the service by deception, threat, or false token;


Depending on the amount of the theft its either a misdemeanor or felony.

[bkb0000]

Yeah, what about committing fraud? How many of those POS received preferential treatment by claiming that they were what they are not?

How many received a discount or free meals by convincing hard-working and patriotic individuals they were heroes or even Veterans? Just sayin'.

i dont know... i'm a vet, but i never get any bennies aside from my disability and school, which i doubt a fraud can get his dirty mits on. if he did, then he'd be guilty of fraud.

if a guy is guilty of fraud, then prosecute him for fraud. if he's not, then don't. i keep seeing the whole fraud argument brought up over this debate, and don't know why- lying about your service isn't "fraud," unless it is. they're separate things.

[JackOSU]

no, common sense is recognizing that no matter how dirt-baggish it might be, you cannot prosecute people for lying. i'm with the 9th on this one.

I could go on for days as to why I think you're wrong on this one, but I'll save you, I and the thread from being locked from doing so.

[bkb0000]

I could go on for days as to why I think you're wrong on this one, but I'll save you, I and the thread from being locked from doing so.

its possible to present your argument in a mature enough fashion to keep the debate civil. even if you don't, all it takes is for the other guy to not allow himself to be baited into hostility..

present your argument, otherwise there's no point posting to begin with.

[RogerinTPA]

****in wrong as usual, no surprise there. I consider this fraud in the highest order. They should at least give clemency to a Vet who punches one of those ****ers in the face.

[RancidSumo]

Legally, fraud is-

A false representation of a matter of fact—whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of what should have been disclosed—that deceives and is intended to deceive another so that the individual will act upon it to her or his legal injury.

If I wan't to be a douche and walk around pretending to be a war hero all day, that should be perfectly legal. It only becomes an issue of fraud when I use it to do something like obtain benefits or services reserved to veterans. In that case, there are already legal actions that can be taken, we don't need a special law for it.

Too many people are confusing the definition of fraud as an impostor with what the actual legal definition is.

[Belmont31R]

****in wrong as usual, no surprise there. I consider this fraud in the highest order. They should at least give clemency to a Vet who punches one of those ****ers in the face.



In order to qualify as fraud someone has to be frauded out of something. "Thoughts" do not count in basic example of seeing someone in a uniform walking down the street, and thinking they are military or earned some award. They have to use a false status for personal gain of something tangible (in the legal sense). But then everything they try to get as a result of a false status is already illegal under laws like fraud, theft of services, etc.


There is TONS of legal precedence on this, and just because its a military uniform doesn't change anything legally. Sure its a despicable act but so are a lot of things in society that people are allowed to do.


If you apply the standard of just wearing the uniform/awards then you have to prosecute every 10 year old kid that plays cops and robbers, Allies Vs. Axis, dresses up for Halloween, every stripper that uses a uniform, etc. The law has to apply equally to everyone.

[RogerinTPA]

In order to qualify as fraud someone has to be frauded out of something. "Thoughts" do not count in basic example of seeing someone in a uniform walking down the street, and thinking they are military or earned some award. They have to use a false status for personal gain of something tangible (in the legal sense). But then everything they try to get as a result of a false status is already illegal under laws like fraud, theft of services, etc.


There is TONS of legal precedence on this, and just because its a military uniform doesn't change anything legally. Sure its a despicable act but so are a lot of things in society that people are allowed to do.


If you apply the standard of just wearing the uniform/awards then you have to prosecute every 10 year old kid that plays cops and robbers, Allies Vs. Axis, dresses up for Halloween, every stripper that uses a uniform, etc. The law has to apply equally to everyone.

This individual in question, claimed Medal of Honor status to obtain a favorable rating in obtaining a job, while not ever serving in the Armed Forces. That's fraud in my book.

[bkb0000]

This individual in question, claimed Medal of Honor status to obtain a favorable rating in obtaining a job, while not ever serving in the Armed Forces. That's fraud in my book.

sure, it's fraud. but what does that have to do with the Stolen Valor Act?

[cop1211]

This country keeps sinking lower and lower.

[JackOSU]

sure, it's fraud. but what does that have to do with the Stolen Valor Act?

And that was my point to begin with in simple terms.

We have men and women in the military who have risked their lives and while most of them don't view their medals as being a "hero" I find it disgraceful to put on a uniform let alone wear honors one has not earned and to top it off try to gain any advantage from their deceitful acts by douche bags like this person.

To me "common sense" on this is to not allow the act to go unpunished and in my opinion a very harsh penalty is due. I'm fine if said douche bag wants to verbally say something and lie about it, but once they put on a uniform and medals they have not earned the priviledge to wear is crosssing the line in my opinion. The intent of this is a key element in my said opinion. I'm not looking to lock up a kid who wears a police uniform etc on Halloween or to school for show and tell. To me there's a huge difference.

Another fine example of my thoughts are the mosque on ground zero. Sure they have the Constitutional right to build a mosque. My thoughts are it's in very bad taste and common sense to me says they shouldn't be allowed to in that specific area especially when the money trail can't be verified and the actions by this Ihmam in question and his statements right after 9-11 and his recent refusal to speak with the governor of NY on trying to remedy things with finding another location. That intent to me is all I need to know of their intent of this mosque/learning center or whatever anyone wants to call it.

[BrianS]

no, common sense is recognizing that no matter how dirt-baggish it might be, you cannot prosecute people for lying. i'm with the 9th on this one.

Same here. Federal prison is not an appropriate punishment for nerds caught playing dress up and make believe. The fact so many of these guys are outed as fakes proves you can easily check to verify somebody's claims about military service.

[Belmont31R]

And that was my point to begin with in simple terms.

We have men and women in the military who have risked their lives and while most of them don't view their medals as being a "hero" I find it disgraceful to put on a uniform let alone wear honors one has not earned and to top it off try to gain any advantage from their deceitful acts by douche bags like this person.

To me "common sense" on this is to not allow the act to go unpunished and in my opinion a very harsh penalty is due. I'm fine if said douche bag wants to verbally say something and lie about it, but once they put on a uniform and medals they have not earned the priviledge to wear is crosssing the line in my opinion. The intent of this is a key element in my said opinion. I'm not looking to lock up a kid who wears a police uniform etc on Halloween or to school for show and tell. To me there's a huge difference.

Another fine example of my thoughts are the mosque on ground zero. Sure they have the Constitutional right to build a mosque. My thoughts are it's in very bad taste and common sense to me says they shouldn't be allowed to in that specific area especially when the money trail can't be verified and the actions by this Ihmam in question and his statements right after 9-11 and his recent refusal to speak with the governor of NY on trying to remedy things with finding another location. That intent to me is all I need to know of their intent of this mosque/learning center or whatever anyone wants to call it.


If their "intent" is to defraud someone, and gain a tangible personal gain from it there are already laws on the books for that.


I personally think someone is a douche of the highest order if they go around wearing a uniform and medals they never earned but criminal?

And no, precedence in our law says laws have to apply equally to everyone. So if some douche wants to wear a uniform that law has to apply equally to everyone who puts on a uniform they havent "earned". You have to apply that to movie actors, kids who dress up, strippers, ect. If someone is doing it for personal gain by tricking people into thinking they are something they are not then, again, there are numerous laws already on the books to cover any of their actions.


And I don't really care if someone puts on cammies. I used to do it as a kid, and still wear my DCU's and ACU's went going to the range, around the house, and just to go pick up something from the store. Just the pants but they are comfortable, and otherwise they'd be collecting dust in a drawer. To some that is "disrespecting" the uniform but we are all entitled to their own opinion on wearing uniform items. I just don't think dawning a uniform should be an illegal act UNLESS the person uses a false military status for personal gain by defrauding others of assets/services/benfits/charity (et al).

[JackOSU]

If their "intent" is to defraud someone, and gain a tangible personal gain from it there are already laws on the books for that.


I personally think someone is a douche of the highest order if they go around wearing a uniform and medals they never earned but criminal?

And no, precedence in our law says laws have to apply equally to everyone. So if some douche wants to wear a uniform that law has to apply equally to everyone who puts on a uniform they havent "earned". You have to apply that to movie actors, kids who dress up, strippers, ect. If someone is doing it for personal gain by tricking people into thinking they are something they are not then, again, there are numerous laws already on the books to cover any of their actions.


And I don't really care if someone puts on cammies. I used to do it as a kid, and still wear my DCU's and ACU's went going to the range, around the house, and just to go pick up something from the store. Just the pants but they are comfortable, and otherwise they'd be collecting dust in a drawer. To some that is "disrespecting" the uniform but we are all entitled to their own opinion on wearing uniform items. I just don't think dawning a uniform should be an illegal act UNLESS the person uses a false military status for personal gain by defrauding others of assets/services/benfits/charity (et al).

Perfect. You just made my point for me. I think we are in agreeance on this. I though feel that it is disrespectful for those with the intent of gain by doning a uniform. I'm old school I guess and feel those that do should be drug behind the wood shed for an old fashioned ass kicking myself.

I see both of my grandfather's folded flags hanging on a wall in my place with their pictures and honors below. I feel as though I try to respect the uniform and the people who wear them as much as many who have served do even though I did not have the priveledge myself. For me it's respect and those that have ill intent are scum. Just my .02 I guess.

[500grains]

Newt Gingrich has the solution for the 9th circuit. It is not necessary to impeach the judges. The next Prez and Congress can dissolve the 9th circuit. There will still be an 8th circuit and a 10th circuit but no 9th circuit. The territory covered by the 9th would be "redistributed" to the 8th and 10th circuits.

And lifetime appointments for the judges? If another court rules that the .gov must keep paying judges' salaries, fine. That is less expensive than the bad rulings the 9th makes.

[chadbag]

According to Wikipedia, the Stolen Valor Act of 2005 does not address the wearing of uniforms by non military personnel. It only addresses the wearing of decorations and medals.

"U.S. law that broadens the provisions of previous U.S. law addressing the unauthorized wear, manufacture, sale or claim (either written or oral) of any military decorations and medals. "

So comparisons to cops, dress ups for kids, etc are not really applicable if it is true.

[Alex V]

So just putting on a uniform isn't illegal. If you put on the uniform, and try to act in an official capacity then its illegal. Lots of people "dress up" in offical looking uniforms. Strippers, Halloween constumes, actors, etc. Its only illegal if you try to act in an official capacity.

Im sure it would be upheld if the person was trying to defraud someone out of something tangible like money, services, benefits, etc. But no walking around in a uniform doesn't fit the legal precedence of "impersonation".

As I said, just playing devil's advocate because I happen to agree with you.

You wanna dress up a cop? Fine. You want to dress up as a soldier. Go right a head. But as Chadbag said, the Stolen Valor act is more about the decorations and not the uniform. If the 9th says the whole thing should be thrown out, then the part about medals and decorations is thrown out and that is what I am not cool with. No one should wear medals they did not earn. Weather they are trying to defraud people of funds or goods or not, they are still stealing non-tangable goods from those who have earned those decorations.





And no, precedence in our law says laws have to apply equally to everyone. So if some douche wants to wear a uniform that law has to apply equally to everyone who puts on a uniform they havent "earned". You have to apply that to movie actors, kids who dress up, strippers, ect. If someone is doing it for personal gain by tricking people into thinking they are something they are not then, again, there are numerous laws already on the books to cover any of their actions.



I think I could be okay with that as long as female stripers are exempts.

:laugh:

In the end, you are probobly right, and we should just let the laws that are on the books regarding fraud take care of the problem, but I still can't help but feel sick when someone posts a news article about some asshat wearing a uniform and decorations he did not earn.

[Nathan_Bell]

Sad thing is that 40 years ago this would have been dealt with by the people whose coat-tails the wanna-bes were riding. A few guys would get half drunk at the VFW or Legion, then beat the hell out of the fake and tell him next time it would be worse. If they didn't judge the fake to be too bad, they would just let him know what would happen if the faker ever stepped over the line that only those that were going to administer the assbeating knew the location of.

[rickrock305]

This was a good decision. Yes, people who go around wearing medals they didn't earn are douchebags of the highest order. But the law was worded too broadly.