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I have recently made a gun trade with another M4c member. My question is, Is it legal for a private individual to send a rifle across state lines to a licensed FFL dealer without having a local FFL dealer ship it for them? Basically we made a gun swap, both of us shipped our rifles to each others dealer and now my dealer is giving me a bunch of crap about it and the fact that he sent a copy of his license to someone who was not a licensed dealer. Am I screwed or is my FFL incorrect? :confused:
Barring some state law you did fine and IMO you dealer is full of it. How could the other trader ship his rifle to your FFL dealer (and show proof of such) w/o said dealer's license as a back-up?
Always check with your FFL before having a firearm shipped to him for transfer. Unless there are state or local regulations requiring the firearm to be shipped from an FFL, it can be shipped from an non-FFL to an FFL.
Some FFL holders will only accept firearms shipments from another FFL although no state or local regulations require it. They worry that someone with a copy of their FFL can cause them mischief.
There is an official website that explains what's required but I don't recall how to find it. If someone can point you to it, you might be able to explain to your FFL that everything is kosher.
If he knew you were going to have a non-FFL ship a rifle to you for transfer before hand, he doesn't have much of a gripe
Completely legal under federal law.
Belmont31R
08-18-10, 19:32
Already basic said but:
Across state lines- has to be sent TO an FFL in the purchasers home state. Does not have to be sent FROM an FFL.
Within a state- no FFL required.
State laws may vary. What state is it going to, and what state is it coming from?
That's just it, I've had at least 5 guns sent to him from non-ffl holders before without issue. The guy did say he spent all day yesterday with the ATF and maybe that's what's got him all riled up. I'm ready to clear out the safe and do a quick sale to a friend for the time being just in case. But for now I'm not getting my gun until he verifies everything with the atf.
The more research I do the more confused I get. Trying to understand the legal terms from the atf website makes it worse.
As far as I'm aware an individual is supposed to verify that they are sending a gun to a licensed ffl holder before they send the gun. Usually I do this by having the ffl fax a copy of the license beforehand which is why I asked him to fax a copy to another individual and to expect a delivery from another FFL dealer(dealer x). I think he thought he was sending his license to dealer x instead of an individual. But then he brought out the whole illegal transaction crap and now I need a xanax.
State laws may vary. What state is it going to, and what state is it coming from?
PA to NJ and vice versa
I have recently made a gun trade with another M4c member. My question is, Is it legal for a private individual to send a rifle across state lines to a licensed FFL dealer without having a local FFL dealer ship it for them? Basically we made a gun swap, both of us shipped our rifles to each others dealer and now my dealer is giving me a bunch of crap about it and the fact that he sent a copy of his license to someone who was not a licensed dealer. Am I screwed or is my FFL incorrect? :confused:
It's not a law (assuming your state doesn't have a specific law to that effect).
But a LOT of FFLs have a POLICY about not providing copies of their FFL to individuals. This is because an individual doesn't need a copy of the FFL. They only have to verify they are sending to a valid FFL and they can do that with EZ check.
The main problem is how easy it is to scan a FFL and change the info. ATF has most FFLs so damn paranoid they would feel safer giving away guns without doing a 4473 than giving an individual a copy of their license. So what was once common practice, is now something to worry about right up there with straw purchasing and all the other crap ATF makes a guy worry about simply because he chooses to deal in firearms.
The other problem is FFLs don't want to receive from individuals. Individuals are more likely to cause "bad deals" by sending guns that are "other than advertised" and now the FFL is in the middle of the deal gone bad. This is less likely when the deal is from another FFL because then the person has a vested interest in making sure the customer is happy.
The FFL should have confirmed who was getting a copy of his FFL before giving it to you. And honestly I'm surprised he did, I always send copies directly to the FFL myself. I'm assuming here that you didn't misrepresent the deal in any way to make him believe the gun was coming from another FFL.
Bottom line is you want to work out ALL the details first, that way you can use the same FFL the next time.
Barring some state law you did fine and IMO you dealer is full of it. How could the other trader ship his rifle to your FFL dealer (and show proof of such) w/o said dealer's license as a back-up?
ATF EZ check.
There is no "on file" requirement for individuals, only dealers are required to maintain a copy of the FFL. And for a good many reasons, FFLs don't want individuals to have copies of their license.
A LOT of guys get funny when a FFL wants a photocopy of their drivers license (which a FFL needs for verification of origin of a firearm when receiving from an individual).
But the same guys who act like sending a photocopy of their DL is as unsettling as providing a sample of their DNA think nothing of asking a guy who is regularly subject to agencies like ATF for a copy of their business license which they depend on for their livelihood.
Now this is usually solved by simply explaining a procedure to individuals. FFLs get a copy of my FFL, individuals get part of my FFL number so they can verify my license and ship to that address only. And in 10 years it's never been a problem unless somebody is trying to be offended.
That's just it, I've had at least 5 guns sent to him from non-ffl holders before without issue. The guy did say he spent all day yesterday with the ATF and maybe that's what's got him all riled up.
As far as I'm aware an individual is supposed to verify that they are sending a gun to a licensed ffl holder before they send the gun. Usually I do this by having the ffl fax a copy of the license beforehand which is why I asked him to fax a copy to another individual and to expect a delivery from another FFL dealer(dealer x). I think he thought he was sending his license to dealer x instead of an individual. But then he brought out the whole illegal transaction crap and now I need a xanax.
There you have it.
1. ATF does this shit all the time. They act like their recommendations are already current laws on the books and those recommendations are constantly changing. Funny how guys who own bars and cigar shops don't get the same treatment.
2. Sounds like he simply got confused and believed he was faxing to a FFL. You'd probably have similar reservations about faxing a copy of your DL to a private individual you don't know. If you ran a licensed business, you'd probably laugh at the notion of providing a copy of that license to anyone.
Well I called the ATF to verify that my and the other guys but was covered, and it was. I got my gun and everything seems to be smoothed over. Next time I'll be using EZ check so that there will be no missunderstandings. Thanks for the info guys. Dead on as usual.
:thank_you2:
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