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C4IGrant
06-28-07, 16:17
Do you now what you don't know when it comes to training? How bout weapons and gear?


C4

RD62
06-28-07, 17:01
Do you now what you don't know when it comes to training? How bout weapons and gear?


C4

I do know I don't know anything about the proper deployment of my AR, malfunction clearance, etc. I'm hoping to find some decent instruction in the local area, when I have the $$$ to do so.

I do have what I feel is pretty good dept training on hand gun deployment to include shooting while moving, use of cover, malfunction clearance, one handed manipulation (shooting, drawing, reloading, etc), weapon retention, ground fighting, and low light, although I'd like to get more training. We have had some training on room clearing and house clearing. But could have been more, alot more.

There doesn't seem to be much offered in the South Carolina area though. And I recently left my Dept. so I won't be able to recieve further training there. I'm going to seek handgun training first as I feel that a home defense/CCW type threat to be my most probable at this point. But do want to attain more than basic carbine training at some point too as $$$ allows.


-RD62

Pat_Rogers
06-28-07, 17:34
RD62- knowing that you don't know everything is a good sign (sorta' like a 12 step program thing...)
Just FYI, Fernando Cohelo (the Woolrich Elite clothing guy) is hosting me in SC in mid December - should be 10-12, but they are not confimed.
Go to my website for more info, or on Alumni or 10-8 where i post upcoming classes.

Greyman09
06-28-07, 17:39
Pat
SC as in South Carolina? Will this be an open class?

Thanks

Pat_Rogers
06-28-07, 17:59
Roger Greyman, SC as in Columbia (vicinity of) and yes, an open class.
It is not yet posted.

Greyman09
06-28-07, 18:21
I will be looking for it to be posted. I would like to try to make this class.

Nathan_Bell
06-28-07, 18:24
Do you now what you don't know when it comes to training? How bout weapons and gear?


C4
Nope, but I am working on it. Which requires those that I am asking to sometimes put up with some stupid questions:D

C4IGrant
06-28-07, 19:40
RD62- knowing that you don't know everything is a good sign (sorta' like a 12 step program thing...)
Just FYI, Fernando Cohelo (the Woolrich Elite clothing guy) is hosting me in SC in mid December - should be 10-12, but they are not confimed.
Go to my website for more info, or on Alumni or 10-8 where i post upcoming classes.


Agree. Realizing what you don't know is a very good sign.

Too many male shooters believe that since they have a penis, that they know all about fighting with a firearm. :rolleyes:

Personally speaking, the key to being a good shooter is knowing what you don't know so that you can become better at it.

Same goes for gear. I am constantly amazed at the number of people that make their weapon/gear selection based off of an ad or one of the many bubble gum forums.


C4

RD62
06-28-07, 19:40
Pat,

Thanks for the info. I didn't see any mention of it on your site or 10-8 though. Can you provide any more info as to type of class, cost, etc. This would be my first training outside of the dept. other than CCW class, and I don't really count that.


-RD62

C4IGrant
06-28-07, 19:41
Nope, but I am working on it. Which requires those that I am asking to sometimes put up with some stupid questions:D

There are no stupid questions. ;)



C4

Pat_Rogers
06-28-07, 20:12
The class is not yet posted. When it is confirmed, it will be up on my w/s as well as Alumni and 10-8.
This is a Carbine Operators Course- a 3 Day Course. It is described in the site.

We'll get this one rolling in a week ot three.

Dport
06-28-07, 20:25
Do you now what you don't know when it comes to training? How bout weapons and gear?


C4
By definition you can't know what you don't know.

Rmplstlskn
06-28-07, 21:22
Being active in shooting sports since childhood and a reader (why I hang out here), I do have HEAD KNOWLEDGE about many things but I am now wise enough (at 41) to know that head knowledge is 10% of knowing, and the 90% of knowing is DOING. Not just once, but muscle memory doing...

So I think I have a good idea of what I DO NOT KNOW to the extent of what I know. The other stuff I don't know will blow me away when I learn it... like a kid hitting his first bulls eye.

I also know that what I do know is not being DONE enough, making me at times look like I don't know, when I do... I just screw up from not DOING.

As for gear, I'm just like most everyone else, buying, selling and trading, always thinking the grass is greener over there, only to find out it was a mirage from LACK OF DOING and was no better than what I had. Eventually I have done enough swapping to finally have various weapon systems I think really work for me... except for a few more changes. :D

Rmpl

ashooter
06-28-07, 22:05
In the last couple of years I've learned that there's a BIG difference between a "combat" shooting match and a gunfight. I finally heeded the advice of some people much wiser than me and got some training. The formal training has made my scores at shooting matches lower, but has changed my mindset from focusing on winning the match to focusing on winning the fight. It's changed my mindset from "hobby shooter" to "way of life".

Gear? "Great" gear is hard to come by (and expensive), but nice to have. "Good" gear is good enough.

"Good enough" skills are not enough... The more I learn, the more I feel like I can never learn enough. The more I learn, the more I realize how much I do not know.

FJB
06-28-07, 23:06
"Average isn't good enough. Average only gets you killed. Only excellent to outstanding performance will be accepted." Wise words from a former CO of mine.

Four things American males are born "knowing" what to do from birth: 1) Drinking; 2) Driving; 3) Shooting; & 4) Screwing. Two things American males never do: 1) Read Instructions; & 2) Ask Directions. There in lies the problem. It is one thing to "not know what you don't know" but be willing to search for knowledge. It is another to "not want to know what you don't know" especially if you are in a position of leadership and the lives of others are your responsibility. Too many think only within their own or their organization's parochial ("if it wasn't invented here") box and never realize that education/learning is a journey not a destination.

S/F

NCPatrolAR
06-28-07, 23:08
The class is not yet posted. When it is confirmed, it will be up on my w/s as well as Alumni and 10-8.
This is a Carbine Operators Course- a 3 Day Course. It is described in the site.

We'll get this one rolling in a week ot three.

Pat in SC? Count me in. :D I've been trying to get into one of these classes for several years. I was close back in 05, but had my arm broken while on duty and coudn't go. I'm going to be keeping mye eyes on this.

Jay Cunningham
06-28-07, 23:59
I don't yet know how to properly clear a structure.

I don't yet know supine, urban or SBU prone.

I don't yet know what night-fighting with a carbine is like.

I don't yet know what it feels like to be shot at.

I don't know what it feels like to shoot someone.

I don't yet know...

Don Robison
06-29-07, 02:01
I've been training for close to 20 years. I'm always seeking more knowledge and skill, it's not hard find those with more knowledge or skill than myself, the hard part is accepting new TTP. IMHO, if you don't seek more knowledge and training you become dogmatic, dated and will quickly find yourself with a head full of dated and not so useful TTP. I won't call it useless, but it definitely won't be what you should be striving to achieve.

Army Chief
06-29-07, 07:00
"Average isn't good enough. Average only gets you killed. Only excellent to outstanding performance will be accepted." Wise words from a former CO of mine.

Four things American males are born "knowing" what to do from birth: 1) Drinking; 2) Driving; 3) Shooting; & 4) Screwing. Two things American males never do: 1) Read Instructions; & 2) Ask Directions. There in lies the problem. It is one thing to "not know what you don't know" but be willing to search for knowledge. It is another to "not want to know what you don't know" especially if you are in a position of leadership and the lives of others are your responsibility. Too many think only within their own or their organization's parochial ("if it wasn't invented here") box and never realize that education/learning is a journey not a destination.

S/F


The words of this post should be cast in bronze, and posted on every firing line in the land.

I'm not altogether sure what I really know or don't know (I'll leave that for others to decide), but I know that I want to know more. ;)

Chief

Sgt443
06-29-07, 07:10
Thank you Grant for the topic. I am pleased to find that there actually are others that understand the concept.

As an instructor (for my agency and regional academy) I think it is a more important question for an instructor than a student. Too often I have observed instructors that, in response to a student's question, try to do the "baffle with bs" instead of admitting they don't know. It then falls to me to correct the student without embarrassing the instructor (there's politics everywhere).

I think that when I started to recognize that I know what I don't know is when I really started progressing from instructor to teacher.

Lonnie Buckels

rob_s
06-29-07, 07:18
Then you have the people that don't know who to listen to.:D

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 07:51
By definition you can't know what you don't know.


I tend to disagree. I know that I don't know anything about being a sniper. I know that my CQB fighting skills are not where they should be. I do not know everything about the AR15, etc.

To me, it is recognizing that you have a weakness and need to fix that weakness.

Too many times on too many bubble gum forums, I see people telling others that they don't need no "stinking" training as they already know how to fight and shoot. These people don't know what they don't know.


C4

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 07:54
The words of this post should be cast in bronze, and posted on every firing line in the land.

I'm not altogether sure what I really know or don't know (I'll leave that for others to decide), but I know that I want to know more. ;)

Chief

Agree!


C4

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 08:01
Thank you Grant for the topic. I am pleased to find that there actually are others that understand the concept.

As an instructor (for my agency and regional academy) I think it is a more important question for an instructor than a student. Too often I have observed instructors that, in response to a student's question, try to do the "baffle with bs" instead of admitting they don't know. It then falls to me to correct the student without embarrassing the instructor (there's politics everywhere).

I think that when I started to recognize that I know what I don't know is when I really started progressing from instructor to teacher.

Lonnie Buckels

Your welcome.

I have had the opportunity to be around several instructors that will admit when they don't know something and others that will BS you to death.

I think they are afraid that by them not knowing the answer, the student will lose respect for them as an instructor. This isn't the case (at least for me). It tells me tha they are human like everyone else and are always searching for the answer and aren't going to waste my time with BS!

I will use LAV as an example. In his classes, when he gets a gear question (could be pricing, availability or compatibility) that he doesn't know the answer and or the exact details, he will turn and ask my opinion on it. LAV is FULLY aware of what he does and doesn't know (which there really isn't much that he doesn't know). That is one of the things I like about him and what makes him an excellent instructor.



C4

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 08:07
Then you have the people that don't know who to listen to.:D

Ah yes, this is my favorite one. I don't know chit about weapon XYZ, but I am going to listen to someone on the errornet that just bought a BM, and has fired 500rds in 2 years through it. Where as I can come along and tell them that the two leading instructors in the country (Rogers/Vickers) advise against a BM and they COMPLETELY ignore what I have said. I then tell them, based on my experience why they don't want a BM and they tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. It amazes me that they will take some guys opinion that barely knows which end of the gun the bullet comes out, but won't take mine.

NOTE: BM was used as an example of what not to buy, but there are many others as well. ;)



C4

Don Robison
06-29-07, 08:21
NOTE:[/B] BM was used as an example of what not to buy, but there are many others as well. ;)



C4


You mean like Oly;)

rob_s
06-29-07, 08:45
Ah yes, this is my favorite one. I don't know chit about weapon XYZ, but I am going to listen to someone on the errornet that just bought a BM, and has fired 500rds in 2 years through it. Where as I can come along and tell them that the two leading instructors in the country (Rogers/Vickers) advise against a BM and they COMPLETELY ignore what I have said. I then tell them, based on my experience why they don't want a BM and they tell me that I don't know what I am talking about. It amazes me that they will take some guys opinion that barely knows which end of the gun the bullet comes out, but won't take mine.

NOTE: BM was used as an example of what not to buy, but there are many others as well. ;)


I have a good friend, great guy, career Army, fellow IDPA club member, without whom my carbine matches just wouldn't run, but he makes me nuts with his purchases. He went to the local shop to get a complete lower, and was looking for LMT originally, but after talking to them and reading a couple of threads on TOS he decided that LMTs weren't as good as Bushmasters. Fortunately his wife intervened, called me and asked for advice on a birthday present for him, and she bought him the LMT.:p

Fast-forward two weeks and what does he do? Calls up BM and orders one of their complete uppers to slap on it.:eek:

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 08:47
NOTE:[/B] BM was used as an example of what not to buy, but there are many others as well. ;)



C4


You mean like Oly;)


I love Oly, they make the best, mil-spec weapons on the planet! :D


C4

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 08:51
I have a good friend, great guy, career Army, fellow IDPA club member, without whom my carbine matches just wouldn't run, but he makes me nuts with his purchases. He went to the local shop to get a complete lower, and was looking for LMT originally, but after talking to them and reading a couple of threads on TOS he decided that LMTs weren't as good as Bushmasters. Fortunately his wife intervened, called me and asked for advice on a birthday present for him, and she bought him the LMT.:p

Fast-forward two weeks and what does he do? Calls up BM and orders one of their complete uppers to slap on it.:eek:

Good Lord! Tell him to STOP getting his weapons advise from TOS!! :rolleyes:

Its like asking the French on how to fight a war. Sure they will give you an answer, but it won't be worth anything.


C4

Jay Cunningham
06-29-07, 08:58
More after consideration:

I know that I don't know how reliable any particular firearm is until I put 1,000 trouble free rounds though it.

I know that I don't know how any particular piece of gear will benefit me until I run it through a training class.

I know that I don't yet understand the true dynamics of a gunfight. I know a lot of theory about violent encounters, but I have almost no experience.

John_Wayne777
06-29-07, 09:49
I think the best I can say is that I know where the limits of my knowledge are. In the vast cloud of knowledge that exists I can't possibly be aware of everything I am missing.

What I shoot for is trying to know when I am approaching the limitations of my knowledge on a topic and hopefully to shutup and listen if someone is competently navigating deeper waters than I've ventured into.

I've trained enough that I am pretty sure that I can make decent decisions in a gunfight should I be called upon to do so. I've also trained enough to realize how unpleasant and nasty gunfights are, and thus not getting into one should be a primary focus.

I do that because I *do* know what it feels like to get shot, and it sucketh mightily.

Dport
06-29-07, 10:58
I tend to disagree. I know that I don't know anything about being a sniper. I know that my CQB fighting skills are not where they should be. I do not know everything about the AR15, etc.

To me, it is recognizing that you have a weakness and need to fix that weakness.

Too many times on too many bubble gum forums, I see people telling others that they don't need no "stinking" training as they already know how to fight and shoot. These people don't know what they don't know.


C4
I understand your point.

I was going to start a thread that is somewhat similar in effect. I was going to ask what are your requirements. As in what scenarios do you feel you are likely to encounter, and how does your equipment meet those requirements.

It's sort of the exact opposite way of going about what you're getting at. We work of the known. We know our lives, our daily routine, our habits. We are, or should be, aware of our surroundings. Therefore, we should be aware of the most likely threats. So how do we go about planning for them? We also take risks. We make tradeoffs. For instance, you might never envision that you need sniper training, but theoretically you could be put in a situation where you need those skills. We make tradeoffs all the time. It doesn't make us bad people. If it works out it doesn't make us smart people. It just makes us people.

Now on to the point. I go to training to learn what I don't know. To expose myself to new ideas and tactics that I would have never heard of without the training. I have learned many things in training that I had no clue about prior to attending the training. I literally learned what I do not know. Some things apply to my life. Some things likely will never apply to my life.

That said of the knowns, I know what my weaknesses are. I could, for instance, use a defensive tactics class, preferably one that focuses on ground fighting. I think it is quite likely given the distances that most crimes take place at that, I might be able to use those skills. And the last one I took was 10 years ago, so its time for a refresher.

Anyone that says I they know it all proved in that one statement that they don't.

Dport
06-29-07, 11:02
I know that I don't know how reliable any particular firearm is until I put 1,000 trouble free rounds though it.

Does the manner in which you reach 1000 rounds trouble free play into your perception of reliability? For instance, if you take the gun out and shoot 20 rounds a day for 50 days, cleaning it after every range session, would you consider it reliable? Alternately, if you put fewer rounds down range in a very short amount of time would you consider that test enough to be reliable? Also how many guns have you had that failed a 1000 round trial period? To be honest, I don't think I have had a gun that has failed in the first 1000 rounds that could not be traced to bad ammo or a bad magazine. Based on my experience, I'm more concerned about bad magazines than bad weapons.

Barry in IN
06-29-07, 11:14
Do you now what you don't know when it comes to training? How bout weapons and gear?


C4

I hope not! Then I'd really be in trouble!

What is a mystery to me is that some people don't want to get any training.
I just don't understand it. I always wanted to go.
I sent to Gunsite (well, API then) for info when I was 15, which was as soon as I heard there was such a place.
I didn't get there then, but have tried to correct that later.

I can sorta see the reason of not having the money and/or time, but there often seems to be money for a new gun. I guess each person has to answer if the money would be better spent on training or another gun. I just wish they would answer themselves honestly.

I guess many people think they don't need it, although I haven't met anyone yet who couldn't gain something.

And some don't think anyone needs it.
After taking my first class, I mentioned to a "gun friend" of many years that I had gone. His response?
"Why? I can't imagine you learned anything."

WTF?!?! That was a few years ago, and I'm still trying to figure out what planet that one came from.
I told him that I learned more in the first 15 minutes on the range, and five rounds fired, than I did in all the time practicing on my own and competing in a half-dozen different types of matches, but I don't think I ever convinced him.

I've tried to get him to go to a class with me, but he's above that, I guess.
That's OK. It's his choice, as foolish as it is.
If either of us gets into a gunfight, I'll use the training that I'm still getting.
He can hide behind his ego.

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 11:24
I understand your point.

I was going to start a thread that is somewhat similar in effect. I was going to ask what are your requirements. As in what scenarios do you feel you are likely to encounter, and how does your equipment meet those requirements.

It's sort of the exact opposite way of going about what you're getting at. We work of the known. We know our lives, our daily routine, our habits. We are, or should be, aware of our surroundings. Therefore, we should be aware of the most likely threats. So how do we go about planning for them? We also take risks. We make tradeoffs. For instance, you might never envision that you need sniper training, but theoretically you could be put in a situation where you need those skills. We make tradeoffs all the time. It doesn't make us bad people. If it works out it doesn't make us smart people. It just makes us people.

Now on to the point. I go to training to learn what I don't know. To expose myself to new ideas and tactics that I would have never heard of without the training. I have learned many things in training that I had no clue about prior to attending the training. I literally learned what I do not know. Some things apply to my life. Some things likely will never apply to my life.

That said of the knowns, I know what my weaknesses are. I could, for instance, use a defensive tactics class, preferably one that focuses on ground fighting. I think it is quite likely given the distances that most crimes take place at that, I might be able to use those skills. And the last one I took was 10 years ago, so its time for a refresher.

Anyone that says I they know it all proved in that one statement that they don't.

I personally look at what can happen that would require me to defend myself. I break them into three different areas. CCW encounters and natural disaster/civil unrest/home invasion. In the CCW situation, I will not have a long gun. In the other three, I will have a long gun. I try to train for these situations and have the correct gear/weapon for the job (if possible).

I agree that some training might never be used, but believe it better to have the skill and not use it than to need the skill and not have it.



C4

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 11:29
Does the manner in which you reach 1000 rounds trouble free play into your perception of reliability? For instance, if you take the gun out and shoot 20 rounds a day for 50 days, cleaning it after every range session, would you consider it reliable? Alternately, if you put fewer rounds down range in a very short amount of time would you consider that test enough to be reliable? Also how many guns have you had that failed a 1000 round trial period? To be honest, I don't think I have had a gun that has failed in the first 1000 rounds that could not be traced to bad ammo or a bad magazine. Based on my experience, I'm more concerned about bad magazines than bad weapons.


We all have our standards on the number of rounds needed to see if a weapon is reliable or not.

The AR is not really broken in till about 500rds.
My AR's are not reliable to me till about the 3K mark.
I prefer that the 3K mark be realized through training classes if at all possible.

I believe that lack of lubrication and bad magazines attributes to about half of all malfunctions in the AR platform (maybe more). Why people ignore proper PM's, and shoot junk or worn out mags has always escaped me.



C4

Jay Cunningham
06-29-07, 11:32
Does the manner in which you reach 1000 rounds trouble free play into your perception of reliability? For instance, if you take the gun out and shoot 20 rounds a day for 50 days, cleaning it after every range session, would you consider it reliable? Alternately, if you put fewer rounds down range in a very short amount of time would you consider that test enough to be reliable? Also how many guns have you had that failed a 1000 round trial period? To be honest, I don't think I have had a gun that has failed in the first 1000 rounds that could not be traced to bad ammo or a bad magazine. Based on my experience, I'm more concerned about bad magazines than bad weapons.

I guess you are telling me that I don't know what I don't know.

:cool:

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 11:36
I hope not! Then I'd really be in trouble!

What is a mystery to me is that some people don't want to get any training.
I just don't understand it. I always wanted to go.
I sent to Gunsite (well, API then) for info when I was 15, which was as soon as I heard there was such a place.
I didn't get there then, but have tried to correct that later.

I can sorta see the reason of not having the money and/or time, but there often seems to be money for a new gun. I guess each person has to answer if the money would be better spent on training or another gun. I just wish they would answer themselves honestly.

I guess many people think they don't need it, although I haven't met anyone yet who couldn't gain something.

And some don't think anyone needs it.
After taking my first class, I mentioned to a "gun friend" of many years that I had gone. His response?
"Why? I can't imagine you learned anything."

WTF?!?! That was a few years ago, and I'm still trying to figure out what planet that one came from.
I told him that I learned more in the first 15 minutes on the range, and five rounds fired, than I did in all the time practicing on my own and competing in a half-dozen different types of matches, but I don't think I ever convinced him.

I've tried to get him to go to a class with me, but he's above that, I guess.
That's OK. It's his choice, as foolish as it is.
If either of us gets into a gunfight, I'll use the training that I'm still getting.
He can hide behind his ego.


Your friend suffers from the question. He doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Vickers does this "ball and dummy" drill and you might fire 5 rounds in an hour. People will learn more in an hour than they most likely EVER knew about how to properly shoot a HG.


C4

C4IGrant
06-29-07, 11:40
I guess you are telling me that I don't know what I don't know.

:cool:

I think one of the other issues that type "A" males have is that they cannot stand to have someone tell them what they don't know. Its ok to be a type A, but don't let it get in the way of learning something.

It is always easy to spot these types in a class. The instructor will walk up to them and ask WTF were they doing. The instructor will give correction on how to properly perform the task. The student seems to not only not hear what the instructor has said, but will continue to do it the wrong way again and again. These types of people have to learn things the hard way because their ego has gotten in the way from being able to learn the easy way.


C4

Jay Cunningham
06-29-07, 11:49
Similar discussion going on in this thread:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6000

Dport
06-29-07, 16:20
I guess you are telling me that I don't know what I don't know.

:cool:No, just curious. I see Grant has already given his criteria. I'm much more flexible in mine. I don't think a specific round count says all that much. I look at how the weapon has performed under the use I've given it. As long as it performs well, I'll trust it. I am not likely to trust a weapon with less than 1000 rounds through it, however.

Jay Cunningham
06-29-07, 22:37
I've learned that I would never take a pistol or carbine into a class unless I had put 1,000 trouble-free rounds through it.

Aside from sighting in, I'd be shooting drills as commonly performed in classes. A "range session" for me typically is 150 rounds. So seven trips to the range, putting about 150 or so rounds through the gun each time with lubing and wipe down but no detail strip.

After that and a class I'll be willing to bet my life on the gun.

Nathan_Bell
06-30-07, 11:40
I discovered something I didn't know that I didn't know. Shoot on the move drills are a heck of a lot harder in 4-6" tall grass than a perfectly groomed range.

Pretty obvious, but I had not thought about it until I was doing the drills and wobbling all over the target from having to get my feet UP and THROUGH the grass.

I wonder how many other little stupid things are out there that we don not think about, but are obvious when we encounter them.

rhino
07-01-07, 06:57
I wonder how many other little stupid things are out there that we don not think about, but are obvious when we encounter them.

The first that comes to mind is the set of accomodations one may need to make when carrying/shooting in very cold weather. Not everyone has chosen to see if they can access their gear quickly while wearing winter clothes (including real gloves) under any kind of externally applied stress. Some have no idea if their gun(s) will function at low temps or whether or not they can manipulated the controls while wearing real gloves.

UVvis
07-02-07, 08:55
The first that comes to mind is the set of accomodations one may need to make when carrying/shooting in very cold weather. Not everyone has chosen to see if they can access their gear quickly while wearing winter clothes (including real gloves) under any kind of externally applied stress. Some have no idea if their gun(s) will function at low temps or whether or not they can manipulated the controls while wearing real gloves.

Plus things work differently in cold to very cold.

I was shooting on a rain/sleet day in Montana in probably 15-20 degree weather. I learned that the stuff falling on your barrel can steam, which will freeze on everything else on your gun, like an aimpoint.

Having a trigger guard that swings open is really nice for shooting with heavy gloves on.

rhino
07-02-07, 15:34
. . . and lubrication issues.

It's not a big deal with a pistol you wear close to your body, but with open carry in the cold, or on a long gun, the wrong lube can make a gun malfunction.

I choose to use lubes that are unaffected by the cold (TW25B for grease, FP-10 and Kellube for oils). But then I know for sure they're fine with my guns in the cold because I have tested them down to -8F.

Some lubes get really thick or gummy when the temp drops below freezing. When you need your guns and it's -20F is a bad time to learn you made the wrong choice.

Leonidas
07-02-07, 23:06
I know that I need alot more training to help me figure out what I don't know.

Hint: Anymore training classes in the future at GTA by the gearmeister?