M9 or M&P9 [Archive] - M4Carbine.net Forums

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adams77331

06-28-07, 19:09

dialM4murder

06-28-07, 19:32

I love my M&P 9. One of the lightest recoiling 9mms on the market period. Combat accurate, and a custom fit is assured with the 3 interchangeable back straps. David bowie and Dan Burwell both do amazing custom work with the M&P. Its also lighter and has a higher capacity then the M9.

adams77331

06-28-07, 19:38

Good comment. Are there military style holsters available for the M&P9. For some reason the current rules for 9mm qualification requires a holster, just not a drop-leg style. (Is a drop leg holster more scary than not? Sounds like the "scary-looking" gun ban.)

dialM4murder

06-28-07, 19:42

A good number of holsters are now available for the M&P.

http://www.mp-store.com/index.php?cPath=23&sort=2a&page=2&osCsid=aa6a2cc0d93993e732bcb747d3981fdf

http://www.mp-store.com/index.php?cPath=23&osCsid=aa6a2cc0d93993e732bcb747d3981fdf

adams77331

06-28-07, 19:55

Since you've been kind enough to answer this thread, may I break the thread subject for a minute? (I have another post in the competition section).

What is your take on the pros and cons on going with the Colt LE 6920 for the same competition?

dialM4murder

06-28-07, 20:22

That I couldn't answer as Im not a Colt aficionado. A lil too rich for my blood. :D

VA_Dinger

06-28-07, 21:51

adams77331

06-29-07, 07:10

They are leaning that direction for Mexican border deployment. QRT members carry their own sidearms. It is conceivable that we may one day/year be issued M9s and M4s, just not anytime in the near future. I will probably purchase and M&P9 first, then a M9.

Striker5

06-29-07, 08:01

Sounds like a plan. I bought a Beretta some years ago to train with and practice for pistol qual, etc. It was pretty much a business decision and I was surprised at how happy I was when I opened the box and realized just how darn nice a new Beretta is!

You can't go wrong either way. I would go w/ the M&P9. Congratulations on having a choice.

R1pper

06-29-07, 14:56

KevinB

06-29-07, 16:09

State Guard is not the same as the NG.

I'd go with the M&P, I find the M9 a dog, who's adoption was a blight on the .mil. FWIW in a 9mm my preference for duty carry is still the Glock19.

Can't go wrong with the LE6920 either.

ShipWreck

06-30-07, 00:05

I have yet to shoot the M&P 9 but my department went from the SW99 (JUNK!!!!) to the M&P 40. What a difference, I keyholed the first two rounds I fired never did that once with my 99. The M&P will be a lot lighter too, that makes a big difference when carrying it all day long and into over time

Sorry, I disagree - I have a SW99. It is a clone of the P99 A/S - and while I slightly prefer my P99 to my SW99, it really is essentially the same gun.

I pad $439 for my SW99 when they were discontinued in 2005 - I shot it better than a $1200 1911. It was actually irritating. Now that I have a real Walther, I shoot that even better.

NCPatrolAR

06-30-07, 03:01

To the OP, I'd go with the M&P. It has better ergonomics, haas adjustable backstraps, etc

In regard to the SW99, it is a POS. I carry one daily only because I'm forced to.

Pat_Rogers

06-30-07, 07:05

Adams- apparently you are in the TX State Guard, 5th Air Wing (if we assume from your avatar).

My understanding is that the state guard is a non DoD organization with little or no standards (according to the w/s) that is to back fill for the NG when they are deployed.
I say this only because on LF forums a member of the TX Guard attempted to pass himself of as a real guy, and the resulting investigation brought this org out to a number of people. (FYIW, he was from Austin).

In what case then would you deploy to the frontier? Right now there are multiple NG units on Jump Street. has the charter been amended to include supporting the NG when they are still in the state.
I'm confused here...

Back to you original question- as long as there are no standards other then 9x19, and the odds of you carrying "on duty" are slim, get something useful for yourself in your real world and get the M&P. It is clearly superior in all respects to the M9.

ShipWreck

06-30-07, 13:40

To the OP, I'd go with the M&P. It has better ergonomics, haas adjustable backstraps, etc

In regard to the SW99, it is a POS. I carry one daily only because I'm forced to.

To each is own. Like I said, I prefer the original version - the Walther P99 - It is my all time fav gun - and, I've gotten 15 people to buy one since last Nov. I prefer it to a 1911, personally. I shoot it in SA just as well.

The Dumb Gun Collector

06-30-07, 14:39

I agree, the Walther P99 is an excellent firearm. Frankly, the M&P owes a lot of its design to it. The Walther was certainly the most influential design of the 90s--despite which fact it never reached any real success for itself. Thanks to Walther, most modern service weapons have MUCH better ergonomics, and generally more thoughtful layouts.

davemcdonald

06-30-07, 15:10

I wouldn’t advise packing any heat in the state of Texas without credentials or a concealed carry license. The TSG is a volunteer support group. They are not Peace Officers nor are they an actual military unit. If your volunteer unit orders you to buy weapons in order to arm yourself during a deployment, you should get something in writing articulating your authority to carry and your use of force. That may save your bacon from getting arrested and allow you a tax break. You may also want to take a look at your choice of hobbies as this is not 1836 and providing your own rifle and horse is a bit out-dated.

Other than that, if you are just wanting a pistol and a good AR, then the S&W M&P 9 and Colt 6920 are good choices in my opinion.

Texas State Guard
Our Volunteers, similar to not for profit organizations, receive no compensation for their time, simply, the satisfaction from helping others in need. Hence, our motto; “Texans Serving Texas”

We have Texas State Guard components throughout the State of Texas that provide the following services in times of emergency;

•Shelter Management
•Shelter Control
•Shelter Operations
•Medical Services (Doctors Nurses, Paramedics)
•Assists local authorities in mass feedings
•Volunteer Coordination
•Legal Support (Attorney’s and Paralegals)
•Communications
•Chaplain Services

Dave

adams77331

07-01-07, 08:26

Dave, Pat & Kevin,

I never indicated that I was going to be armed when on State Active Duty and I should not have made any reference to any border operations. I currently am not authorized to bear a weapon of any kind, that doesn't mean that others are not. Current policy doesn't equal forever policy and it doesn't hurt to be prepared/skilled. If there was zero chance of the state guard ever bearing arms, then there would be no need for weapons qualifications, as is offered at AT. My OP stating "possible military carry" was only to make sure that I don't purchase any pistol that would not be suitable for military carry. I can't afford to purchase many of these weapons. The comment about my "choice of hobbies as this is not 1836 and providing your own rifle and horse is a bit out-dated" was funny.

I won't get into an arguement here about the Texas State Guard, but we are not merely a volunteer support group and we are an actual military unit, one of the three branches of the Texas Military Forces, Army National Guard, Air National Guard, and the Texas State Guard, all under the command of the TAG. http://www.agd.state.tx.us/

I think you automatically mischaracterized all of my statements as I have not been ordered to purchase or carry any firearm. Let me make it clear that no one in my unit would carry any type of firearm unless specifically authorized. I'd be happy to discuss anything with anyone concerning this subject offline.

Pat_Rogers

07-01-07, 08:51

I need to buy a 9mm for possible military carry (State Guard). Pistol qualification is only offered for the 9mm, using military ammo, so other calibers are not an option. I'm trying to decide whether to go with the Beretta M9 or S&W M&P9.
I may be using this pistol to compete with our marksmanship team.

Thanks.

Adams- When i saw your original post (quoted above) you stated that you wanted to buy it for possible military carry. :rolleyes:
What did you mean then> What you said in your first post or last?
Can you eleaborate on who in the State Guard is authorized to carry weapons?

Your OP actually didn't concern marksmanship competition, and it appeared that it was an afterthought.

Perhaps my confusion is when you refer to military the unstated inference is real military- such as United Stated Army; United States Marine Corps et al, and not a State support organization.

Don't misconstrue. I am glad that people volunteer to assist the community. Like many, i have issues with some people/ organizations that appear similar to, but do not meet the standards of, those groups they mimic.
Groups like the Civil Air Patrol and USCG Auxillaries, certain SAR and others provide unique skill sets to assist local and other agencies in helping their communities.
Good luck with your endeavors!

Army Chief

07-01-07, 09:31

Essentially, taking nothing away from the Texas State Guard, I guess the moral of the story is what we're really talking about here is a private citizen, seeking to make a private purchase of a privately-owned weapon for private purposes, since the State Guard has neither the charter nor the authority to specify that any of its functionaries employ a firearm in the performance of their (voluntary) duties.

Again, I'm not belittling the State Guard at all; I just think that membership in this organization appears to be largely irrelevant to the original question. Were we talking about a National Guardsman (ARNG, ANG), I might actually recommend the M9 for commonality of parts/training/manual of arms/familiarity, but in this situation, the M&P9 is an easy choice.

Chief

Pat_Rogers

07-01-07, 10:09

Nice to see you back Chief!

QuietShootr

07-01-07, 10:12

Adams- When i saw your original post (quoted above) you stated that you wanted to buy it for possible military carry. :rolleyes:
What did you mean then> What you said in your first post or last?
Can you eleaborate on who in the State Guard is authorized to carry weapons?

Your OP actually didn't concern marksmanship competition, and it appeared that it was an afterthought.

Perhaps my confusion is when you refer to military the unstated inference is real military- such as United Stated Army; United States Marine Corps et al, and not a State support organization.

Don't misconstrue. I am glad that people volunteer to assist the community. Like many, i have issues with some people/ organizations that appear similar to, but do not meet the standards of, those groups they mimic.

Preach it, brother. I've had encounters with the Indiana Guard Reserve when I was in the INARNG, and to call them a bunch of ****-ups would be a grave injustice to ****-ups worldwide.

Arming them would be a pure-d recipe for disaster. This is the kind of cornhole they have in that organization -

From the Indianapolis Star

Student in body armor is arrested at airport
Plastic pellet gun also found on teen at security checkpoint

A high school student said Monday he made a mistake when he walked through an airport metal detector wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying a pellet gun.

"I just wasn't thinking," said Carlos Delay, a 19-year-old senior at Tech High School, who was arrested Sunday night at Indianapolis International Airport. "But I don't think it was as big a deal as the police made it out to be."

Delay was preliminarily charged with disorderly conduct and detained for five hours after his body armor set off alarms in an X-ray machine about 6:30 p.m. He also had a hard-plastic pellet gun in his waistband.

Airport Police Chief Bill Reardon said Delay told police he likes to carry protection when he goes to the airport.

"He said since 9/11 he gets prepared when he goes to the airport," Reardon said.
Delay escorted his mother and cousin to the airport before they boarded a flight for Los Angeles. He had obtained a gate pass from the airline to see them off.

He said in an interview he simply forgot he was wearing the vest and carrying the weapon, which was loaded "but doesn't work."

Along with his high school identification, Delay carried a card saying he was a member of the Indiana State Defense Force and another identifying him as a participant in a Southern Indiana bio-terrorism attack and defense drill.

Delay said he is a member of the Indiana Guard Reserve, a volunteer group that backs up the National Guard.

Reardon said airport officials used sound judgment when dealing with Delay.

"Anytime you are carrying a replica gun, it is a concern, especially if a person were to pull it out," Reardon said.

Pat_Rogers

07-01-07, 10:21

a 19-year-old senior at Tech High School

Holy Mackrel..:confused: Did he not know about the no child left behind thing? 19 and still in HS:rolleyes:

Unfortunately, there are those on the fringe who do dumb things, and while he may believe that "it was a big deal", who did he intend to impress with armor and a pellet pistol?
Talk about a lack of critical thinking skills..
How have you been Brother?

QuietShootr

07-01-07, 10:38

adams77331

07-01-07, 11:11

I get the point that y'all don't think much of state defense forces. You're entitled to your opinions. The NG people we work with don't think of us or treat us the way you do and the majority of our ranks consist of prior "real" military, myself included. I could post pages and pages of horror stories involving leos and "real" military, far more than could be posted about state guards. Individuals being unfit to bear arms or being in positions of authority exist in every group.

I just came to this forum for expertise on the M4.

Pat_Rogers

07-01-07, 11:18

Brother- I guess that after the sorta' convoluted post where you contradicted yourself, it had me wondering.
You never did clarify that....
From a practical standpoint, it would have been a lot cleaner and simpler to just ask for opinions on your hardware choices and not mention the SG thing, deployments to the frontier and so forth.
I agree completely that there are great numbers of cops, mil and average civilians who shouldn't be allowed to have guns. Or cars. Or children. Or oxygen.

Thank you for your service to our country! In what branch did you serve?

davemcdonald

07-01-07, 11:31

I am a solid proponent of every citizen having the right to own and train with his or her personal weapons so let’s clear that up first.

Your own words are what lead us down the trail of mischaracterization

“I need to buy a 9mm for possible military carry (State Guard).”

“I never indicated that I was going to be armed when on State Active Duty”

Your first sentence indicates your need to be armed for State Guard. You can try to spin that how you like but word games are for politicians.

Current policy doesn't equal forever policy and it doesn't hurt to be prepared/skilled. If there was zero chance of the state guard ever bearing arms, then there would be no need for weapons qualifications, as is offered at AT. My OP stating "possible military carry" was only to make sure that I don't purchase any pistol that would not be suitable for military carry. I can't afford to purchase many of these weapons. The comment about my "choice of hobbies as this is not 1836 and providing your own rifle and horse is a bit out-dated" was funny.

The CMP has qualifications also but there is no charter for the CMP to carry a weapon. If you want to train for possible military carry then I would highly suggest getting a Berreta 92 instead of the S&W. If you just want a good weapon for personal training and defense then I would select the M&P. I had the opportunity to shoot Ernest Langdon’s personal M&P 45 and the guys at the S&W custom shop can do wonders with that pistol.

I won't get into an arguement here about the Texas State Guard, but we are not merely a volunteer support group and we are an actual military unit, one of the three branches of the Texas Military Forces, Army National Guard, Air National Guard, and the Texas State Guard, all under the command of the TAG. http://www.agd.state.tx.us/

The organizational charter that I posted above in blue is cut directly from the TSG web site. You may be asked to support the National Guard in an emergency but if you do not show up for duty you will not spend time at Leavenworth, KS or even Sugarland. At no time will you ever be called to active duty to serve with the DOD while serving in the TSG. The Texas National Guard gets called to active duty to serve the DOD. The potential to be called into active duty by the DOD is the dividing line for most of us on the definition of military service.

I think you automatically mischaracterized all of my statements as I have not been ordered to purchase or carry any firearm. Let me make it clear that no one in my unit would carry any type of firearm unless specifically authorized. I'd be happy to discuss anything with anyone concerning this subject offline.

Any mischaracterization was caused by your statements in your original post. Pat Rogers is considered a tactical guru and subject matter expert by many military industry insiders and mischaracterization is not one of his known strong points. I, on the other hand, have only spent 18 years serving Uncle Sam, in one capacity or another with active duty military, US Border Patrol and DHS but I respectfully decline your offer of private tutorials on the organizational charter of the Texas State Guard.

If you want to buy a weapon and learn how to use then pray tell, get with it and shag a$$, but leave the misdirection at home. Buy what you want and feel comfortable with and get good with it. :)

QuietShootr

07-01-07, 11:41

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/1/19/250px-D_oh.jpg.

Army Chief

07-01-07, 12:42

I just came to this forum for expertise on the M4.

Then let's focus upon that, brother, because quite honestly, I don't think any of us particularly care much about the State Guard issue as it pertains to firearms. That's another matter entirely, and not an especially impressive one when you're addressing an audience filled with vets, combat vets, LEOs, contractors, trainers, and active military. Appreciate what you're trying to say, but it's rather short on relevance here.

If, as a solid, civic-minded citizen, you wish to carry and or train with arms, that is both your right and your privilege, and I don't know a man here that would offer anything but encouragement to you.

So, let's talk about the M4.

Chief

Pat_Rogers

07-01-07, 13:04

Well said!

adams77331

07-01-07, 13:07

Thanks for terminating that subject, Chief.

OK. Me and some other "citizens" are forming a marksmanship team that will/may be competing against "real" military teams that will be using issue weapons, M4/M16 and M9s. Our "citizen" team must purchase our own, civilian equivalent, to the federal issue arms. There is some latitude as to which arms we may use...but they must use military issue ammo, 9mm and 5.56mm. I'm trying to decide between the M9 or the M&P9, and, is it worth the extra money to go with a Colt M4/M16 (LE 6920) or one of the other variants? I don't want to "build" a rifle, just slightly improve on a stock version. Also, I believe the competition to be limited to the standard qualification routines. We have not yet received the official rules.

Army Chief

07-01-07, 13:12

Too easy. ;)

Welcome!

I'd go with the M9 in that case, so you'll be more standardized with the other service-related competitors (who will have M9s), and no one ever went wrong buying a Colt IMO. The LE6920 is the no-brainer default, if you're willing to pay a little more money for a lot more peace of mind. Keep in mind, though, that the LE6920/M4 is a 16"/14.5" carbine, and the other competitors will likely be using the M-16A2; if so, it might actually be to your advantage to consider a full 20" rifle. Just food for thought, since most Guard units don't yet have M4s.

Chief

Pat_Rogers

07-01-07, 13:23

And with more refined information i too would suggest the M9. While not as user friendly it has commonality with the issue system, not an insignificant thing.
I would strongly suggest the 6920 as well. You cannot go wrong with the Colt.
As your competition is not defined, consider that the 16" 6920 will most everything a 20" gun will do, though if iron sights only the reduced sight radius may (or may not be an issue.

davemcdonald

07-01-07, 16:47

You may also want to look into LMT complete rifles. It may save you some coin compared to a 6920. The Colt's can be a pain to find in any numbers. Either will work fine.

Is the competition for irons only or are optics allowed?

If you have access to plenty of ammo I would suggest taking a carbine course.
Getting into a high end course with little start up time could be difficult. I do know that Jim Smith has a carbine course coming up in the DFW area in July (IIRC). You can google Spartan Tactical. Pat may be able to make some other suggestions in the training area

Dave

adams77331

07-01-07, 19:07

Thanks for all of the good advice. Also, I don't know whether optics are allowed or not. Kind of hoping not, since optics aren't cheap.

I'm going to start a new thread under the M4 section on what points to check when buying a used rifle, to try and determine just how used the weapon is. I welcome any responses to that thread.