Is USMC rifle "expert" a big deal?

[Bill Bryant]

I asked this elsewhere but decided to give it its own thread.

Is "expert" a big deal?

What percentages of USMC recruits "unk," get "marksman," get "sharpshooter," and get "expert"? Any idea?

[theblackknight]

Well yes and no. Big Navy found that on 26% of recruits had used a scoped rifle with magnification BEFORE enlisting. Some adapt really well, but for a lot of POG units, they only touch a rifle once a year, when they qual.

You'd think that Marines with a 4x scope and BDC could hit black all day, but sadly its not the case. Im a coach,Ive been on the range for my BN for 5 weeks and next week will be my 6 straight.

For us gun guys,expert is just another day at the range, but a lot of Marines ARNT:rolleyes: I had a FM tell me thursday"I mean,I want to get expert, but, whatever, my computer is my weapon." She's not in the small minority either. Lots have the mindset that all this is"grunt stuff."

For your son, yes it is a big deal.He got the phone call,which is a big deal. He did it with a new weapon and iron sights. Those crossed rifles are something to be proud of, because, some fleet Marines, SSgts even, with go to the range and DOUBLE UNQ, which mean they dont even rate to wear a shooting badge.

[theblackknight]

I dont know what the percentages are from boot camp, but 1 range ago, out of 250 shooters, 40 double unq'ed.

[Cagemonkey]

Its a big deal as far as building confidence in recruits and its good for ones pros and cons or fitness report. Its not necessarily a very accurate measurement of one practical shooting ability. Its also a good looking badge to wear on your dress uniform. No ones wants to wear a pizza box. By the way, congratulations to your son.

[BrianS]

I dont know what the percentages are from boot camp, but 1 range ago, out of 250 shooters, 40 double unq'ed.

Is that OK or are they forced to do remedial training until they qualify?

[TehLlama]

Is that OK or are they forced to do remedial training until they qualify?

The next time you hear that Marine training is set up for success, you'll recognize the linguistic trick going on ;)

Often poor scores are only a direct result of a different glaring issue (two friends with terrible myopia, and one who literally can't further forward than the pistol grip, let alone see through a scope).

It helps with promotion scores. I for one use a computer as my primary weapon, but thats hardly an excuse not to be proficient with a bang stick.

If you're putting up a score over 235 on Table1 and over 95 on TableII then you're actually a pretty crack shot. I can't do that for T1.

[Bubba FAL]

For us gun guys,expert is just another day at the range, but a lot of Marines ARNT:rolleyes: I had a FM tell me thursday"I mean,I want to get expert, but, whatever, my computer is my weapon." She's not in the small minority either. Lots have the mindset that all this is"grunt stuff."


WTF? Perhaps these folks should rethink their career choice, it's not like they were drafted. No offense intended, but if I were a Marine, I'd be downright embarassed if I wasn't proficient with the primary infantry rifle, regardless of my MOS. It's the Marines fer cryin' out loud. What's this idjit going to do if she's facing an armed adversary, throw the f'n 'puter at them?

I may be a lowly civilian, but I consider it a responsibility of citizenship to at least be familiar with and able to operate the primary infantry weapon of the US armed forces. I'm proud to have earned my Expert classification with the Service Rifle - and I have to buy my ammo.

[JSantoro]

You'd think that Marines with a 4x scope and BDC could hit black all day, but sadly its not the case. Im a coach,Ive been on the range for my BN for 5 weeks and next week will be my 6 straight.


I will not rant I will not rant I will not rant

:D

I know, this has been the larger part of my world since 2000 (pre-RCO), even more so since 2007. I don't have enough ink in ALL of my pens to write a dissertation on how frustrating it is, and I feel your pain, bbrother. That's not lip service; 6+ years after the RCO became a Program of Record, I'm STILL seeing SNCOs get wide-eyed and say "Really? No shit?" when we kick an RCO package with US running the range.

Without proper learning, sustainment training, and application of the fundamentals, that thing has the chance of magnifying errors by a factor of 4x. Lots of folks don't get that.

This'll chap your sac: This past year, of the top 20 units across the Corps, in terms of rifle qual scores, 12 of them were from the air wing. Why? Because it's unfamiliar enough to them that they don't have the "burden of knowledge" interfering, so they pay attention when they go through what sustainment they get plus Grass Week.

In the Marine subculture, yes, Expert is a big deal. Particularly in the Combat Arms, but it's a major portion of every junior Marine's composite score.

The dirty secret, however, is that the bar within the perfect possible score is set fairly low, and attaining Expert really only means that the shooter has achieved a basic mastery of the fundamentals, not that he/she is a crack shot. It's like a black belt in a martial art; certainly an achievement, but is not an automatic indicator that you're hell on wheels when engaged in fisticuffs. Whether or not that Expert becomes a gunfighter or not depends on lots of follow-on factors.

Mr. Bryant, in case I need to say it: that in no way is meant to downplay the pride you should feel toward the things your son is accomplishing. He's Doing It Right, and should be getting some strut in his walk by now, and hitting Expert the first time out is a building block for that. If I recall correctly, there has been, in the entirety of our nation's history, something like 6 or 7 million US Marines. Our current population exceeds 300 million souls. Therefore, as it stands now, even before graduation, he has already experienced and performed things that the overwhelming majority of the population (EVAAAARRR!) is either unwilling or unable to do.

You think you were proud of him before? Get ready for that bucket to overfill.

[Alaskapopo]

WTF? Perhaps these folks should rethink their career choice, it's not like they were drafted. No offense intended, but if I were a Marine, I'd be downright embarassed if I wasn't proficient with the primary infantry rifle, regardless of my MOS. It's the Marines fer cryin' out loud. What's this idjit going to do if she's facing an armed adversary, throw the f'n 'puter at them?

I may be a lowly civilian, but I consider it a responsibility of citizenship to at least be familiar with and able to operate the primary infantry weapon of the US armed forces. I'm proud to have earned my Expert classification with the Service Rifle - and I have to buy my ammo.


I am not in the military nor have I been. But this is my take on it. If the female in question is a data processing intel geek and she provides a valuable service that helps the guys on the ground do their jobs then leave her the hell alone. Yes help her to shoot better. But her primary mission is not sending bullets down range. The armed forces has lots of jobs and lots of skills are needed. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water because some good intel geek can't shoot.
Pat

[Belmont31R]

I am not in the military nor have I been. But this is my take on it. If the female in question is a data processing intel geek and she provides a valuable service that helps the guys on the ground do their jobs then leave her the hell alone. Yes help her to shoot better. But her primary mission is not sending bullets down range. The armed forces has lots of jobs and lots of skills are needed. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water because some good intel geek can't shoot.
Pat


What happens when said clerk goes on a convoy to FOB XYZ, and said convoy gets engaged enroute.


One thing people seem to not grasp in this "war" is that there is no such thing as front lines. Anyone can find themselves in a position facing an ambush, and finding themselves in the middle of a firefight. Every company, no matter how "insignificant" there job is to warfighting, has to be prepapred. Key in the Jessica Lynch story here. Support unit finds itself engaged by main line oppositiion forces, and because the old army says support units just need the bare minimum that convoy got ****ed.

BTW I was a commo nerd, and found myself on convoys quite a bit. We supported all our own people, and did our mail runs, change of personnel, etc. It wasnt any infantry or scout unit taking our people out. We ran around Baghdad all by ourselves, and we had our own share of IED strikes, engagements, ect. More than a couple people in my BN came away with purple hearts. No we didnt do any door kicking but if you look at the casualty rates that was not the most dangerous thing to be doing. Being on the road was. On my 2nd deployment I went on convoys with our brigade scout teams, and were escorting EOD guys around to go blow stuff up. But the lesson here is that it doesnt matter what your MOS is. No one is immune from danger so long as their job takes them off the bases. At the same time I was commo, and running around the city we had CA units tasked with security who never left the wire except maybe around the perimeter. But Ive also seen FULL BIRD Col's manning turrets on MITT teams.


But speaking of qualifying its a joke, and not just with who I served with. My best friend is a Marine, and its pretty much the same with them. His last deployment was with 2/7 in Afghan. However unit leaders tend to place a lot of emphasis on qual scores, and not on the individuals character. Ive known people who shot expert but were absolute vagina's when it came to going out the gate. Ive seen people promoted who on deployment hid behind a terp when rounds started flying. Somehow if you are a PT stud, and shoot well that means you would make a good team or squad leader....:rolleyes:

[Bill Bryant]

But speaking of qualifying its a jokeNo doubt there's far more to being an effective warrior than what kind of score you get in boot, and I'm no Marine or any other kind of pro and never have been so take this for what it's worth. But if qualifying is a "joke" why do they bother with it at all? Or any of boot for that matter. Why not just send the boys into battle without training them at all--why not just hand them some gear, point them at some bad guys, and just let the chips fall?

[JSantoro]

But her primary mission is not sending bullets down range.

....until it is, and there's a laundry list of examples to bear this out.

That said, things being as they are from a current training standpoint, "every Marine a rifleman" is a catchy recruiting slogan. The Army and the Corps both have Mondo-Turbo Big Problems turning their riflemen into riflemen that they need to tackle.

I generally refer to the following phrase as one of the "Three Great Marine Corps Cop-Outs," but in this case, it's dead on: it's a leadership issue.

It's also a Too Many Golf Courses On Base issue. YOU CAN GOLF WHEN YOU GET OUT, JACKWAGONS.

[variablebinary]

No doubt there's far more to being an effective warrior than what kind of score you get in boot, and I'm no Marine or any other kind of pro and never have been so take this for what it's worth. But if qualifying is a "joke" why do they bother with it at all? Or any of boot for that matter. Why not just send the boys into battle without training them at all--why not just hand them some gear, point them at some bad guys, and just let the chips fall?

The Army puts a lot of emphasis on APFT because it is one of the few non-subjective ways of measure a soldiers capability. Same for qualification. Either you meet the standard or you don't

It's hard to know what really lurks in the heart of the Soldier, but there is no way to get around a crap APFT score, or the inability to qual.

While it would be great to make everyone highspeed, I'm not sure how feasible that is. I do think every unit should commit at least 15% of their strength toward additional combat arms type training and leadership in addition to their native MOS.

This would ensure if there is another Jessica Lynch type situation, there is always someone in the ranks who knows what the hell to do.

[JSantoro]

But if qualifying is a "joke" why do they bother with it at all?

Sir, the picture isn't as bleak as we may be painting it to appear, and for a number of reasons.

The training we engage in is whole paradigm shifts better than that of our adversaries, and not simply in regard to raw marksmanship. Both tours in Iraq, our unit never got away from the feeling that one of the safest places to be was in an Iraqi's sights.

Training methodology, even at the basic level, has come a loooooong way in the last century, partially because it needed to keep up with technology, but also because we have developed a professional military tradition, not just a bunch of rubes on horses following the one schmo out in front on a horse, screaming his head off and waving a tulwar over his head until he gets killed and we wonder what the hell we were thinking.

ASIDE: Pick up On Killing and On Combat, by Dave Grossman, if you haven't already. I and many others question some of his source material, but both are still very good primers. They're also a couple of the many books the Corps will encourage your boy to read!

Our order of battle and the doctrine used by it is designed so that a lack of capability of one is complimented by the strengths of another.

And the beauty of our doctrine is that we can bloody well ignore it when a situation calls for it. Any plan represents nothing more than something to deviate from if the situation it was designed for changes. Centralized planning, decentralized execution. Initiative ceded to the lowest possible levels whenever possible.

We gripe about the bar being set low because in our hearts and our heads and our balls that we KNOW we (brothers in arms) can do better, be better. It's why after-action reports are more than just a buzzphrase, and why ego drives us to step aside from ego and what we wish were fact to do a no-BS assessment of what's wrong. So that there's a fighting chance of reinforcing the strengths and maybe correcting the weaknesses.

And it gets frustrating when something fundamentally simple....isn't, and is made more difficult by things that shouldn't be insurmountable...but are. It haunts us because combat is the most corrosive, Darwinian environment there is, made worse by the fact that you can do everything absolutely right and still get killed because the enemy has a vote, too.

So, things get a bit...terse, and the medium makes the message look like something it's not. The frustration sneaks in and makes it look like, let's face it, whining and talking down. It really isn't.

[Looey]

For me it is a was and it is still a big deal to have been a rifle EXPERT in the Marine Corps(with that said i was a owner of a pizza box out of boot camp :rolleyes:) first time i went to the range when i got to the fleet i got my crossed rifles and never looked back.
I was proud of that moment, now i was able to make fun of the rest of the pizza box wearers :D. I got out of the Marine Corps as a 7th award expert and 5th award pistol expert with Iron sights only(I got out before the RCO days), in the infantry ranks it will always be a big deal.

I would have to say that even now, a Marine is still one of the best basic marksman right out of boot camp. we can either make them better or worst depending what unit they end up in, grunts will always rely on their mastery of tactics and marksmanship.

I hope your son is very proud of his expert badge i would be.

[Bill Bryant]

Thanks for that very thoughtful post, Mr. Santoro. Much to ponder there.

[RogerinTPA]

The Army puts a lot of emphasis on APFT because it is one of the few non-subjective ways of measure a soldiers capability. Same for qualification. Either you meet the standard or you don't

It's hard to know what really lurks in the heart of the Soldier, but there is no way to get around a crap APFT score, or the inability to qual.

While it would be great to make everyone highspeed, I'm not sure how feasible that is. I do think every unit should commit at least 15% of their strength toward additional combat arms type training and leadership in addition to their native MOS.

This would ensure if there is another Jessica Lynch type situation, there is always someone in the ranks who knows what the hell to do.

Agreed....however, the Jessica Lynch deal was more of a leadership failure than anything else. Poor weapon care (not cleaned and lubed), lack of situational awareness, poor map reading skills, poor convoy integrity, etc... was where the wheels came off the track.

It is always a good thing to qual everyone at the Expert level, however, imho, annual qual is not sufficient to remain at that level.

[Thomas M-4]

Most would on this forum would be surprised to see how the military in general views going to the range. Quick story buddy was stationed at 29 Palms getting his grill worked on and was in the motor T him and his NCO didn't get along at all. Has punishment for some of the bone headed stuff he did he was sent to the range :lol:They liked him so much at the range they tried to get him transferred out of the motor T. Until his NCO found out and realized that he just sent his bitch boy on a 3 week trip to Disney World :haha: Guess were he was sent next.. That's right the Armory.

[Armati]

ASIDE: Pick up On Killing and On Combat, by Dave Grossman, if you haven't already. I and many others question some of his source material, but both are still very good primers.

The Army has been formally studying PTSD (shell shock, battle fatigue, the 1000 yard stare) since WWI. As Grossman points out, there is about 2% of the population that he calls 'Natural Soldiers' (natural born killers?).

In volunteer forces these guys tend to aggregate in commando or shock troop type units like Special Forces, Airborne, Marines, Guards, and Watch. I would argue, that thru personality testing and observation, these sorts troops can be selected for. In fact, I would argue that our combat troops should only be made up of people with this unique psychological profile.

If you have ever been in one of these types of units you know that there are two different kinds of guys - the guys who passed the schools and the guys who are the real-deal-seal-a-meal.

Every troop should know how to defend themselves and there fellows. But only a very small number will ever be competent 'gunfighters.' Most people just don't have a combat mindset and I am not sure if can train this.

[cop1211]

It should be a "big deal". I too, shot with just iron sights. I qualed expert every time I went to qual. (x6). On Oki for my last qual before getting out I shot a 299.

I should be something that everyone should strive for.

[Bill Bryant]

I should be something that everyone should strive for.Yes you should. Keep working out and maybe someday . . . :p

[cop1211]

Yes you should. Keep working out and maybe someday . . . :p


lol ,sorry typo "It"

[Bill Bryant]

Cop1211, just having some fun. ;)

[cop1211]

No worries brother:)

[variablebinary]

It is always a good thing to qual everyone at the Expert level, however, imho, annual qual is not sufficient to remain at that level.

No it really isnt. I shoot all year around so qual is cake. But 90% of my unit, only shoots at qual time.

My last qualification had many people out there for nearly 5 hours trying to qual. I was done on my first attempt and spent the reminder of my time doing mag dumps and eating pizza :p

[GermanSynergy]

No it really isnt. I shoot all year around so qual is cake. But 90% of my unit, only shoots at qual time.

My last qualification had many people out there for nearly 5 hours trying to qual. I was done on my first attempt and spent the reminder of my time doing mag dumps and eating pizza :p

Ever see E-7's and E-8's that can't zero their weapons? Used to see it all the time on the zero range when COSCOM/DISCOM units got there- holding us up....

[RogerinTPA]

For those that have recently deployed, what is the current range training requirement for those units deploying, both Army and Marine?

Is the training on a KD range?

Is close in fighting and CQB included, as well as malfunction drills, mag changes etc....

[theblackknight]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35656314/MCO-3574-2K-USMC-Rifle-Range-Order

[RogerinTPA]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35656314/MCO-3574-2K-USMC-Rifle-Range-Order

Good read. Thanks for providing that info. I'm glad to see the Marines have incorporate realistic rifle marksmanship training in steps using basic, intermediate and advance training (shoot on the move, FTS, controlled and hammer pairs, tactical and speed reloads).

Curious, how long has this training been adopted? My friends who are former Marines didn't get this in the 1st Gulf War.

[Caeser25]

What happens when said clerk goes on a convoy to FOB XYZ, and said convoy gets engaged enroute.


One thing people seem to not grasp in this "war" is that there is no such thing as front lines. Anyone can find themselves in a position facing an ambush, and finding themselves in the middle of a firefight. Every company, no matter how "insignificant" there job is to warfighting, has to be prepapred. Key in the Jessica Lynch story here. Support unit finds itself engaged by main line oppositiion forces, and because the old army says support units just need the bare minimum that convoy got ****ed.

BTW I was a commo nerd, and found myself on convoys quite a bit. We supported all our own people, and did our mail runs, change of personnel, etc. It wasnt any infantry or scout unit taking our people out. We ran around Baghdad all by ourselves, and we had our own share of IED strikes, engagements, ect. More than a couple people in my BN came away with purple hearts. No we didnt do any door kicking but if you look at the casualty rates that was not the most dangerous thing to be doing. Being on the road was. On my 2nd deployment I went on convoys with our brigade scout teams, and were escorting EOD guys around to go blow stuff up. But the lesson here is that it doesnt matter what your MOS is. No one is immune from danger so long as their job takes them off the bases. At the same time I was commo, and running around the city we had CA units tasked with security who never left the wire except maybe around the perimeter. But Ive also seen FULL BIRD Col's manning turrets on MITT teams.


But speaking of qualifying its a joke, and not just with who I served with. My best friend is a Marine, and its pretty much the same with them. His last deployment was with 2/7 in Afghan. However unit leaders tend to place a lot of emphasis on qual scores, and not on the individuals character. Ive known people who shot expert but were absolute vagina's when it came to going out the gate. Ive seen people promoted who on deployment hid behind a terp when rounds started flying. Somehow if you are a PT stud, and shoot well that means you would make a good team or squad leader....:rolleyes:

You would think that the Jessica Lynch incident would enforce this 7 years later. Every story on the news was blamed on the wepaons being junk and jammed. I call it poor pmcs and piss poor leadership :mad:

Exactly, I was freaking arty. Our Paladins were here in the USA. We ran convoys from Camp Bucca in Umm Qasr to Abu Ghraib and back once a week. I had an E-7 try to send us out with only 100 rounds for our M2 on our first convoy, " that's you'll need" what if we half to lay down cover fire nad blow thorugh it in 1-5 mins, then what? "oh you can get more when you get there" whiskey tango foxtrot. I had to go over everybodys head (platoon sgt, butter bar platoon ldr) to our 1st sgt to get ****ing ammo, I didn't wanna get caught with my pants down and run out of ammo with my vehicles primary weapon when needed most. **** my rank. I wanna bring me and my squad back.

[Surf]

While I have trained some Marines in firearms skills, it was not geared towards shooting their quals. I like to think the info I taught would help them in shooting their quals, so take this FWIW.

In general, I think it is a big deal. I think as a progression of learning, setting personal goals or achieving benchmarks set as standards have good value in training. It may keep us interested and motivated to progress even further. Of course Shooting "Expert" at the quals should not be our final destination either. But only a stop along the way. A stop that I feel one should take pride in achieving, but never be satisfied with and think its the end of the road.

My humble .02. :)