View Full Version : Buidling my first AR..... help!
Mobile-eyez
08-21-10, 00:55
:help: Hey all..... let me first start by saying that before joining m4carbine.net I knew almost nothing about the ar-15 platform and how it functioned..... I've been checking out alot of threads the past couple of days and now I want to build my own rifle by the end of 2011 (money is tight) it will actually be my first "tactical" style rifle...... but I'd like something higher grade.
The base knowledge threads were a great help in learning what to look for in a quality weapon, and I thank all who were involved in the assembly of those threads.
I was looking at Noveske rifles, Daniel Defense, and Lewis Machine & Tool, all of which seem to hold very solid reputations here on the forums. Noveske is too expensive, and I'm not sure if I'd like to go with a piston system, and I think I'd like to have something just a tad heavier than an M4 profile barrel...... I'd like to try to stay below the $2500 for just the rifle and some BUIS.... optics aren't in the picture yet.
I was thinking of putting a 16" Noveske SS upper on an LMT Defender lower, then adding Troy BUIS to the setup. I'd put a Daniel Defense rail on it if I chose not to go with the Vltor monolithic upper offered by Noveske........ which seems like a very durable upper.
Any thoughts on this idea or recommendations on how to make it better?
For $2500 you can pretty much just go buy the very very best of everything you like and build it. Thats a lot of money for just the rifle and buis.
ford7379trucks
08-21-10, 02:49
you can get a Noveske Basic for $1450 and it comes with a Troy BUIS. http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bin/imcart/display.cgi?item_id=lcb-556&cat=103&page=1&search=&since=&status= its a light barrel but its a Hbar. or the upper for $850. You can get a Noveske Lower for $159 http://www.ddsranch.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=570_574&products_id=609 and a very nice Lower parts kit w/ Geissele SSA trigger for $199 http://palmettostatearmory.com/lower-parts-kits.php
If durability (longevity) is your goal then I'm not sure a stainless steel barrel is the best direction. 10,000 rounds represents a typical accuracy lifespan for many ss barrels. I like the Noveske double-thickness chrome-lined M249-spec barrels - arguably the best combination of accuracy and durability.
I think I would go with the M249 profile barrelled upper as well. Or a complete gun if you can get it. Get a decent light and sling and you will be good.
Of course we will also need mags and ammo.
If durability (longevity) is your goal then I'm not sure a stainless steel barrel is the best direction. 10,000 rounds represents a typical accuracy lifespan for many ss barrels. I like the Noveske double-thickness chrome-lined M249-spec barrels - arguably the best combination of accuracy and durability.
You can buy an awesome rifle for less much less than $2500. You could probably buy two. My last LMT was about $1,100 it came with a single 30 round LMT magazine, GI sling and LMT rear sight.
ForTehNguyen
08-21-10, 08:02
just get Bravo Company, you can get a great build (rails, non stock furniture) for $1500+. Very high quality and service. With an red dot or holographic sight, around $2000
will this be for defense or any classes?
Mobile-eyez
08-21-10, 15:47
Thanks for the input on the stainless steel barrels. I'm leaning more toward the M249 steel light profile now. This will probably be my only ar-15 for a while.... so I'd like to get top quality, durability, and accuracy right off the bat.
The Bravo Company USA rifles are interesting... I'll definately look closer into them..... but if I were to purchase a complete Noveske rifle..... is the Geissele trigger upgrade worth the money? Does anyone know about how comfortable the Vltor monolithic uppers are to handle, like about how slim they are? I'd really have no need for a switchblock...
Side note.... kind of unrelated...... but would the pinned and welded flash hider on their 14.5" models exempt the rifle from the SBR classification?
Yes permanently attaching the correct flash hider or brake will get you to about 16.1" and you will not need to SBR your gun.
for your given budget of $2500 for the rifle only you could probably take a look at the kac sr-15. Theres a thread on them here that has alot of great info on it.
..... but if I were to purchase a complete Noveske rifle..... is the Geissele trigger upgrade worth the money? Does anyone know about how comfortable the Vltor monolithic uppers are to handle, like about how slim they are? I'd really have no need for a switchblock...
I have a Noveske Light Recce Basic w/VIS (I prefer the FSB rather than LoPro front sight). The VIS upper is a little wider side-to-side and a little narrower top-to-bottom than the DD Lite 9.0 that I just bought for the Noveske-based SBR I'm building. It's a very nice looking upper and very rigid. Worth the money? I don't know, money wasn't an issue with that purchase, but I like it a lot and certainly would do it again.
The Geissele SSA trigger is a GREAT trigger and I did buy it as an upgrade when I ordered the rifle. Bear in mind, however, that the upgrade is $155, and you can buy it separately from BravoCompany for $170. If you do that and swap it out, you'll have a complete extra FCG for $15.
WillardCW4
08-21-10, 16:43
I have a Spikes Tactical Lower and an LMT upper (16", 1/7 twist, chrome lined). I am very pleased with the upper, but I think for my next build, I will do a BCM lightweight build. BCM is right up there with LMT, Noveske, etc., and they are really affordable.
As far as assembly, if you don't want to buy a complete rifle, the lower you buy isn't too important. Find something cheap, as long as you know it is mil-spec and forged (I prefer forged vs. billet, but thats another discussion :)). I got my spikes tactical lower for $80 stripped, a parts kit for $60, and some magpul gear and was good to go! Invest the money in a high quality upper + optics...
I highly recommend that you reconsider the whole 14.5" pinned thing. Especially with a Noveske barrel. Just get a 16".
I would also recommend against the Geiselle trigger unless you are performing some type of SDM/DMR role. A standard trigger is more than adequate for a combat rifle.
BCM does make super quality stuff and I wouldn't rule them out.
Thanks for the input on the stainless steel barrels. I'm leaning more toward the M249 steel light profile now. This will probably be my only ar-15 for a while.... so I'd like to get top quality, durability, and accuracy right off the bat.
The Bravo Company USA rifles are interesting... I'll definately look closer into them..... but if I were to purchase a complete Noveske rifle..... is the Geissele trigger upgrade worth the money? Does anyone know about how comfortable the Vltor monolithic uppers are to handle, like about how slim they are? I'd really have no need for a switchblock...
Side note.... kind of unrelated...... but would the pinned and welded flash hider on their 14.5" models exempt the rifle from the SBR classification?
ford7379trucks
08-21-10, 21:19
i would not recomend against the Geissele SSA. If you can aford it get it. if not. the stock is fine but Geissele is perfact.
I highly recommend that you reconsider the whole 14.5" pinned thing. Especially with a Noveske barrel. Just get a 16".
I would also recommend against the Geiselle trigger unless you are performing some type of SDM/DMR role. A standard trigger is more than adequate for a combat rifle.
"More than adequate" isn't necessarily the same thing as "optimal". I'd be curious to know you reason for recommending against an SSA.
I'm also interested in your reasoning for recommending against a 14.5/pinned FH, unless it's only because of the possibility he might change his mind and want to go to a compensator or suppressor on that barrel someday.
ford7379trucks
08-22-10, 00:00
with a 16" barrel you get 100 more fps and w/ fh you have a 17.5" barrel. Its realy just for looks. There both good to 600m. I prefer the 14.5"
I don't think that the cost is worth it, unless you are going to be using it in such a role. That's my opinion.
yes, because he may change his mind and also because most people cannot really differentiate between a 14.5" or a 16".
"More than adequate" isn't necessarily the same thing as "optimal". I'd be curious to know you reason for recommending against an SSA.
I'm also interested in your reasoning for recommending against a 14.5/pinned FH, unless it's only because of the possibility he might change his mind and want to go to a compensator or suppressor on that barrel someday.
I don't think that the cost is worth it, unless you are going to be using it in such a role. That's my opinion.
I think the Geissele SSA is a great trigger and noticeably better than the stock trigger in the Stag or RRA LPKs. I do think it's a reasonable aftermarket purchase and in a reasonable ballpark price-wise compared to some of the other aftermarket stuff we put on our rifles.
Having said that, and since it makes more sense to buy the Geissele from Bravo aftermarket rather than purchase it from Noveske as an upgrade, I agree that on his first AR rifle it probably makes more sense to just go with the stock trigger, shoot it for awhile, and upgrade later if desired.
The stock trigger is less money an said to be more robust.
I am not knocking the Geissele. My point being that myself (and others) can shoot good with stock triggers. My Noveske 16.1" Recon is topped with a Leupold 2.5x8 MR/T and using Prvi Partizan match ammo I shooting 1 MOA using a stock trigger.
Since I am not using it for SMD/DMR work I think that is more than acceptable. If I was using it for precision then I would surely purchase a Geissele. I think that the OP would be better served in using that money for ammo, mags, sling, light, etc... first. YMMV.
I think the Geissele SSA is a great trigger and noticeably better than the stock trigger in the Stag or RRA LPKs. I do think it's a reasonable aftermarket purchase and in a reasonable ballpark price-wise compared to some of the other aftermarket stuff we put on our rifles.
Having said that, and since it makes more sense to buy the Geissele from Bravo aftermarket rather than purchase it from Noveske as an upgrade, I agree that on his first AR rifle it probably makes more sense to just go with the stock trigger, shoot it for awhile, and upgrade later if desired.
I am not knocking the Geissele. My point being that myself (and others) can shoot good with stock triggers. My Noveske 16.1" Recon is topped with a Leupold 2.5x8 MR/T and using Prvi Partizan match ammo I shooting 1 MOA using a stock trigger.
Since I am not using it for SMD/DMR work I think that is more than acceptable. If I was using it for precision then I would surely purchase a Geissele. I think that the OP would be better served in using that money for ammo, mags, sling, light, etc... first. YMMV.
I never even came close to implying that you were knocking the Geissele trigger. I even agreed with you that he shouldn't upgrade right off the bat - should shoot the stock trigger and "upgrade later if desired".
My only point was that if he wants to spend his money on a trigger upgrade, it makes more sense to buy it later rather than now. He'll get a better deal, and may find that the stock trigger is just fine and he won't need to upgrade at all.
For that kind of money, why not also consider a KAC SR-15? Pretty much all the OP would have to do is change the grip. add a light and sling and he'd be GTG. If he doesn't care for the SOPMOD stock he can always sell it and put on a Magpul or Vltor. The money he'd make from the sale would probably be more than whatever stock he would replace it with.
ford7379trucks
08-22-10, 23:05
The stock trigger is less money an said to be more robust.
My SSA looks alot more robist then the stock trigger. The stock triggers dont fail tho.
spamsammich
08-22-10, 23:22
Pay close attention to what Iraqgunz is telling you and take a serious look at the BCM offerings. They are the best deal going for a rifle that is as close to mil spec as you're going to find from somebody without a .mil contract. I keep telling myself that I"m going to get a KAC sr-15, but when I shell out the cash, it's almost always a BCM box that shows up at my door. I've got more BCM hats than heads in my household now :D
Belmont31R
08-22-10, 23:46
Standard triggers are OK as long as you get a decent one, and they are not all decent. Ive kept a couple LMT trigger groups in a couple lowers but other ones Ive gotten go in the parts bin as spares. They were really up in the 8-10lb range, and it would be difficult to shoot decent groups with them. Doesn't so much matter if you aren't into shooting groups, and are just punching paper at 100 yards and closer.
Having SSA's in 5-6 lowers now I can appreciate how consistent they are. If I had all standard triggers I could get behind one, and have a 6lb pull. Go to another gun, it feels different, and is in the 10lb range.
Ive only ever heard of 1 or 2 SSA's having trouble, and I know I have many thousands of rounds down range with them without a single issue. I also have a DMR in my MK12, and it hasn't skipped a beat. Only ~1200rds through that one but the SSA's have a lot more than that. The reliability concerns most people have are because people started putting competition triggers in their guns, and they are really not beefy enough to take the abuse in a combat gun. Some are made poorly, too, and people started breaking them. The SSA is designed from the ground up as a combat trigger, and designed to take the abuse. Its not the best feeling 2 stage out there but they are reliable from my own experience, and everything Ive seen since they have come out. I was hesitant at first because of all the negatives Id read about 2 stages in general, and how many people were popping up with broken triggers. After about a year of following the SSA I bought one, and slowly but surely they have found their way into all but 3 lowers now. Id replace those 2 LMT's, too, but they don't get used so theres no point, yet.
Belmont31R
08-22-10, 23:49
Pay close attention to what Iraqgunz is telling you and take a serious look at the BCM offerings. They are the best deal going for a rifle that is as close to mil spec as you're going to find from somebody without a .mil contract. I keep telling myself that I"m going to get a KAC sr-15, but when I shell out the cash, it's almost always a BCM box that shows up at my door. I've got more BCM hats than heads in my household now :D
If you add up the cost of the SR15 part by part its really in the same ball park price as a BCM rifle. I love BCM products as much as anyone but the SR is actually very competitively priced when you add things up. Not too mention the lower has features no other lower has, and the barrel extension/bolt is a stronger design than the standard bolt design BCM uses.
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