View Full Version : M4 rail options (MIDDIE)
I am about to pull the trigger on a Spikes Mid LE 16". I CAN get the spikes rail system, which is cool:
http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=63_134&products_id=449
BUT - I'm not so sure I like the large diameter of these quad rail systems. This one runs me about $141.
Or... can I get a Magpul, ANYTIME in the future????? http://riflegear.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=693&SEName=magpul-moe-hand-guards-midlength
(WOnder how long this add has said 'coming soon'?)
While in my local shop today, I saw this:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=VTAC+Troy+STRX-ELI-E0BT
Which would cost me $165 installed.
It is also free float, and is continous, so it looks cool, and to me it feels better than a rail. Makes the gun look pretty unique. But... can the little picatinny attachments be put on anywhere you want AFTER it is installed??? Are there any advantages to this (or any continuous rail) over the magpul, which may have the best ergos...
Thanks.
BTW - shot my buddies RRA today - very impressive gun - should I even think about this instead of a Spikes?
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=462
Also - anyone ever use a Samson rear sight???
justin_247
08-21-10, 19:32
I am about to pull the trigger on a Spikes Mid LE 16". I CAN get the spikes rail system, which is cool:
BUT - I'm not so sure I like the large diameter of these quad rail systems. This one runs me about $141.
Or... can I get a Magpul, ANYTIME in the future?????
Eventually, the Magpul midlength MOE handguards will come out. Just get a standard midlength rifle without the Spike's rail and replace them with these when they are launched. The standard "corncob" handguard works just fine.
Honestly, there are much better rail systems out there than the Spike's - DD, KAC, and Troy, just to name a few.
While in my local shop today, I saw this:
It is also free float, and is continous, so it looks cool, and to me it feels better than a rail. Makes the gun look pretty unique. But... can the little picatinny attachments be put on anywhere you want AFTER it is installed??? Are there any advantages to this (or any continuous rail) over the magpul, which may have the best ergos...
I've heard nothing but good things about the Troy/VTAC rail... in fact, my 18" upper is going to have one. And yes, you can put the attachments pretty much anywhere, but I heard it's a bit difficult. Some people on this forum have some tricks, though, so I wouldn't let that concern you.
BTW - shot my buddies RRA today - very impressive gun - should I even think about this instead of a Spikes?
The Spike's is a better rifle, by far. And for a tiny smidgen more than you'd pay for the RRA or Spike's, you could get an absolutely top-of-the-line rifle from BCM or DD.
I could build a BCM with Spikes lower. That would cost me about the same without the rail.
$520+20(charging handle)+17 Shipping = $547 upper (BCM)
$100 for a rear sight from somewhere.
$250 + 15 shipping Spikes lower.
That is $912 and NO handguard. Add the VTAC and it is $1077. Or by a BCM complete for about $1050 and need a rear sight. And... its an M4.
Total on the Spikes will be about $960 and its a middie. You can keep saying "just a little more and I could have a ...." It never ends.
NO - I want to stay south of $1000, and don't believe I need the premium of BCM. I could have gone S&W as I did for my son. It has MOST of the chart features and the best warranty anywhere.
Is there something wrong with Spike's now?
BTW - my buddies RRA WAS nice, and the trigger was perfect - that is worth some change.
Back to my question. Is the free float VTAC better than the Magpul in any real way?
Thanks.
justin_247
08-21-10, 20:37
You can buy a DDXV for $950 if you shop around, and it comes with a BUIS and a handguard plus a PMAG.
You can get a Magpul MBUS sight for about $55 and handguards for $20.
If you like RRA LPKs so bad, buy a good stripped lower and install it yourself or pay a gunsmith $30 to do it for you. A $70 kit isn't worth all the trouble you're going to have with all the other components on an RRA rifle (ie, lack of a full-auto bolt carrier group, lack of a properly staked bolt carrier, lack of an MPI/HPT bolt, lack of an MPI/HPT barrel, 1/9 twist barrel instead of 1/7, probably an oversized gas port, no M-4 feed ramps, lack of a mil-spec receiver extension, wrong buffer, etc.). There are better LPKs out there... like G&R Tactical's, DD's, or CMT's.
BCM BFH mid-length upper receiver assembly w/ charging handle and full-auto BCG - $610
Spike's stripped lower - $100
RRA LPK - $70
BCM M4 stock kit w/ H-buffer - $77
BCM mid-length handguards - $20
Magpul MBUS rear-sight - $55
That's $932 right there for a top-quality rifle!
Add in another $25 for the FFL transfer fee on the lower and $40 for gunsmithing to install your LPK and stock, and it comes to $997.
WIN.
P.S. If that *still* doesn't work for you and you could care less about whether or not an upper receiver has an HPT bolt and barrel, you can save yourself $87 by buying a Spike's mid-length upper receiver and, since it already comes with an ST-T2 buffer, buying only a carbine buffer when you do the order for the BCM M4 stock kit. I think this is a bad choice, but it is FAR SUPERIOR to paying a dime to RRA.
Maybe I'm just a thick head but is the only difference between the Spikes and the BCM being HPT'd?
Again, I get the VTAC done and a complete warrantied rifle for less, and with a metal sight.. I think I'll stick with that. I can TALK to Spikes. I cannot talk to BCM - I've tried.
Is Spike's that bad? HPT - maybe if I've into Class 3, but I'm not. I want a solid and reliable rifle .
Please. Is the VTAC better than having the Magpul?
OK - on another note - how is DD better? I'm just not familiar with the 'purist' M4 arena as you can tell. Is it really about $160 better than the Spikes? I think I can nail one for $950 - so are they as GOOD as BCM??? How is their Customer Service? Is it really better than getting a MIDDIE WITH A VTAC for about the same price? Please explain this ti a newbie.
justin_247
08-22-10, 05:27
Maybe I'm just a thick head but is the only difference between the Spikes and the BCM being HPT'd?
That and BCM's seriousness about this business, customer service, and desire to continually improve the weapons system is what makes BCM better than Spike's.
Again, I get the VTAC done and a complete warrantied rifle for less, and with a metal sight.. I think I'll stick with that. I can TALK to Spikes. I cannot talk to BCM - I've tried.
You can't talk to BCM? Via e-mail, or via phone? The best way to contact BCM is via e-mail.
Is Spike's that bad? HPT - maybe if I've into Class 3, but I'm not. I want a solid and reliable rifle.
No, Spike's is better than S&W, but it's not a Colt, DD, KAC, Noveske, LMT, or BCM.
Please. Is the VTAC better than having the Magpul?
YES.
OK - on another note - how is DD better? I'm just not familiar with the 'purist' M4 arena as you can tell. Is it really about $160 better than the Spikes? I think I can nail one for $950 - so are they as GOOD as BCM??? How is their Customer Service? Is it really better than getting a MIDDIE WITH A VTAC for about the same price? Please explain this ti a newbie.
Familiarize yourself with "The Chart," ie, what goes into making a reliable M-4. You can find it here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA#gid=2
It's not about "purism" - it's about quality components manufactured to proper standards to maximize reliability, and there aren't many people who do it right. Colt, DD, BCM, Noveske, LMT, and KAC all do it right.
BCM customer service is superb. They go above and beyond, and there are plenty of stories about that on this forum. Browse around a little and learn.
Why do you want a FF rail? What do you want to accomplish with it? What do you need to mount to it?
Without knowing more about your needs it's pretty much impossible to recommend anything.
I do agree that the current Spike's BAR is too wide (I have 1200 rounds on one) but they are supposed to be introducing a narrower version that I think will be better.
Won a DD XV last night on GB.
I'll deal with the rail later.
I guess I'll see quality soon.
IMHO no rail system compares to those offered from DD. The omega is simply awesome. Check it out, check the equipment exchange boards, good deals can be had. I picked up a omega 9 for $175. Congrats on the new rifle, DD makes a damn fine rifle. I use lots of their parts (barrels, rails, LPK's, lowers) and if I was to buy another complete one, it would be a DD. Just don't start building them, lol....then the choices get much harder.
justin_247
08-22-10, 11:14
Won a DD XV last night on GB.
I'll deal with the rail later.
I guess I'll see quality soon.
A fine choice! You made the right decision.
Thanks. I would have been able to get more for features on the Spikes, but oh well - I'll take your word that the DD is more 'robust'. One thing that helped was reading a thread from a guy who blew up his DD because he used bad ammo. They told him they would fix it right on their dime - impressive. I can start somewhat bare bones. Sheesh - would have loved to have an M4 back at Ranger School some thirty years ago.
Hope the fit/finish is as good as my buddies RRA - very nice.
Yes - the shop sells DD rails, but they are EXPENSIVE - $300+.
I just like the VTAC because it is skinny and round - feels good. You still get a good top continuous rail, and free float (possibly good for a tad more long range accuracy?). Also, you get to pick WHERE you want to have pic rails.
Guess you guys don't care for free float. (I know a retired SF Sniper and he doesn't like free float). I won't tell you what he owns - you'd cast him out.
Yes, the DD's look very nice. Just not sure about the feel of piccatinnies even when covered.
The shop will put them on for free - and the VTACs are very reasonable and lightweight. BUT, if I found a DD for $175 that I could put on with the collar, I might be interested.
Thanks. I would have been able to get more for features on the Spikes, but oh well - I'll take your word that the DD is more 'robust'. One thing that helped was reading a thread from a guy who blew up his DD because he used bad ammo. They told him they would fix it right on their dime - impressive. I can start somewhat bare bones. Sheesh - would have loved to have an M4 back at Ranger School some thirty years ago.
Hope the fit/finish is as good as my buddies RRA - very nice.
Yes - the shop sells DD rails, but they are EXPENSIVE - $300+.
I just like the VTAC because it is skinny and round - feels good. You still get a good top continuous rail, and free float (possibly good for a tad more long range accuracy?). Also, you get to pick WHERE you want to have pic rails.
Guess you guys don't care for free float. (I know a retired SF Sniper and he doesn't like free float). I won't tell you what he owns - you'd cast him out.
Yes, the DD's look very nice. Just not sure about the feel of piccatinnies even when covered.
I don't think anyone is dissing the idea of a free-float handguard. It is just without some idea of the intended use for the rifle and what gear you want to mount, it's tuff to make a recommendation.
Just for the record, I have two ARs with carbine length Magpul MOE handguards, 1 midlength with standard handguards waiting for a midlength MOE, and a BCM midlength with 9" Daniels Defense Omega X rails.
As for DD being expensive, get your hands on a set. Very light, high quality equipment. In this case, it's a get what you pay for situation.
The shop will put them on for free - and the VTACs are very reasonable and lightweight. BUT, if I found a DD for $175 that I could put on with the collar, I might be interested.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/Daniel-Defense-EZ-CAR-7-0-Rail-Carbine-Handguard-p/dd%205010.htm
Try this from Bravo Company
The omega rail system requires no modification or removal of anything from your rifle, including delta ring. It is also free float, very slim, and very light. You need to hold one to see the differences that make it worth it.
Calling the Omega "light" is a bit of a misnomer. The only thing the Omega has going for it is the ease of installation by those that can't or won't remove the FSB for install. That's it.
Folks say it's "light", but it really isn't. You have to factor in the retained weight of the barrel nut, delta ring, and handguard cap which is nearly 3 oz and which pushes the Omega up to 4 oz. heavier than the Troy TRX Extreme mentioned elsewhere when comparing identical lengths. It's nearly 1.5 oz. heavier than the Lite Rail and M4 also both from DD.
Folks say it's "slimmer", but it really isn't. It's 1.94" wide while the DD M4 rail is 1.94" wide and, as mentioned above, the M4 is lighter to boot. While it doesn't have 4 full rails the Troy mentioned above is only 1.74" wide and does not require covers. Put covers on any of the full-railed systems and they get even heavier.
Not sure if the OP bought a carbine-length or a mid-length gas system, but IMHO a carbine-length rail is all but useless regardless of the make.
I'm not anti-FF tube, but you sound like you're on a pretty tight budget and, call me crazy, but I'd go spend that money on ammo and, you know, shoot.
Anyone know anything about VTAC?
Can you mount the short rails once it is on (requires sight/gb removal, etc.)?
How heavy is it compared to DD stuff?
How well does it deal with heat?
Thanks.
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