View Full Version : Bushmaster XM15 E2S 25k vs others, reliability/durability
5904
5905
5906hey guys, i have a Bushmaster right now, that has at a minimum 25k rounds through it, and still works great...i did replace springs, and some other high wear parts recently and feel confident that it is good to go. but this last weekend i decided i need another, so i called a few friends around who have different "high quality" AR's. a DD, RRA, LWRC, and a BCM upper on a Bushy lower. we were shooting and my gun wasnt missing a beat but the others were jamming machines (except the LWRC)...i know the owners take great care of their equipment, so i guess my question is are the "high quality" AR's worth the extra cash or is it all a lot of brand loyalty and logo purchasing?
5904
5905
5906hey guys, i have a Bushmaster right now, that has at a minimum 25k rounds through it, and still works great...i did replace springs, and some other high wear parts recently and feel confident that it is good to go. but this last weekend i decided i need another, so i called a few friends around who have different "high quality" AR's. a DD, RRA, LWRC, and a BCM upper on a Bushy lower. we were shooting and my gun wasnt missing a beat but the others were jamming machines (except the LWRC)...i know the owners take great care of their equipment, so i guess my question is are the "high quality" AR's worth the extra cash or is it all a lot of brand loyalty and logo purchasing?
Sample sizes of one are insufficient to answer the question you've posed at the end of your post. The short answer is there are quantifiable and objective differences in certain weapons that make them preferable for hard/duty use. Some of these differences include material selection (i.e. barrel steel, receiver extension aluminum, etc), assembly procedures (staking, loctite or lack thereof, proper torque, proper alignment, etc), and design (barrel twist, gas port size, chamber dimensions, feed ramps, receiver extension geometry (goes along with material), correct FSB etc), among others...the things I mentioned were not an exhaustive list. There is a reason these things are done, and that is because they are proven to work.
RRA and Bushmaster generally do not fall on that list. If yours works fine, rock on.
If you legitimately want to discover the answer to your question, the information is here. Start digging through the tech forums.
Have you replaced the barrel?
5904
5905
5906hey guys, i have a Bushmaster right now, that has at a minimum 25k rounds through it, and still works great...i did replace springs, and some other high wear parts recently and feel confident that it is good to go. but this last weekend i decided i need another, so i called a few friends around who have different "high quality" AR's. a DD, RRA, LWRC, and a BCM upper on a Bushy lower. we were shooting and my gun wasnt missing a beat but the others were jamming machines (except the LWRC)...i know the owners take great care of their equipment, so i guess my question is are the "high quality" AR's worth the extra cash or is it all a lot of brand loyalty and logo purchasing?
hitman1012
08-23-10, 21:14
OH NO! A Bushmaster with 25k rds! BLASPHEMY I tell you! Not that I do not believe you, there are some on here that will not though. I can already tell you that what you will hear is, one good gun does not make Bushmaster a good firearm. When I told of a close friend who is a very good and known 3-gunner that shoots DPMS and has over 30k rds through his with only a barrel replaced, that is exactly the response I got.
My point is the same as yours. I am not saying that Bushmaster or DPMS are better than other brands but I am saying they are obviously not as bad as everyone likes to believe. Otherwise this type thing would never occur. I do not even own a DPMS .308 anymore or a Bushmaster or RRA, just saying there are other fish in the sea that do work just fine.
The other argument, which I actually partially agree with is: other brands are really not that much more expensive, so why roll the dice. A Colt or BCM will not run much more than those brands mentioned above. I only go custom, so I can build them like I want vs. off the shelf guns.
The problem is not that you or the OP couldn't have had a good rifle. It's that they cannot CONSISTENTLY produce a weapon that will run.
Many shortcomings can be fixed, correct extractor spring/insert, staking the castle nut, bolt carrier key screws, etc...
Things you cannot fix w/o replacing parts, overgassed guns, bolts that are not HP/MPI tested, barrels made from 4140, etc...
I personally would rather wait a couple of months to save the additional funding to get one that is up to spec.
OH NO! A Bushmaster with 25k rds! BLASPHEMY I tell you! Not that I do not believe you, there are some on here that will not though. I can already tell you that what you will hear is, one good gun does not make Bushmaster a good firearm. When I told of a close friend who is a very good and known 3-gunner that shoots DPMS and has over 30k rds through his with only a barrel replaced, that is exactly the response I got.
My point is the same as yours. I am not saying that Bushmaster or DPMS are better than other brands but I am saying they are obviously not as bad as everyone likes to believe. Otherwise this type thing would never occur. I do not even own a DPMS .308 anymore or a Bushmaster or RRA, just saying there are other fish in the sea that do work just fine.
The other argument, which I actually partially agree with is: other brands are really not that much more expensive, so why roll the dice. A Colt or BCM will not run much more than those brands mentioned above. I only go custom, so I can build them like I want vs. off the shelf guns.
Crow Hunter
08-24-10, 09:39
As someone who has owned both Bushmaster and Colt.
As someone who has taken both apart and compared parts side by side.
As someone who has experience as both a manufacturing engineer and a design engineer.
There IS a difference between them. I am not just talking about the stuff on Rob's Chart. If you know what you are looking at/for, it will become apparent there is a difference.
How that stacks up with durability, mean rounds between failures, etc. I don't know. I don't have any experience with that.
Out of the 4 Bushmasters that I have owned, one couldn't get through a full magazine without a failure to feed/nasty double feed and another had to go back due to a horribly machined upper that looked like a cutter broke during finishing the ejection port but was sent on through production.
Of the 5 Colts that I now own, I have never had a single problem that wasn't operator related. Don't get grease on the firing pin in sub zero weather.:blink:
So in "MY" experience, Bushmaster has a 50% failure rate and Colt has a 100%. Looking at the parts, I can see why.
To the OP, next time you are out with your friends. Get them to take out their bolts and pull off the extractor. Take a real close comparitive look at the extractor. I think you will be suprised and what you see...
And that is just the tip of the iceberg.
ETA: I forgot the one Bushmaster AR that I was going to buy and I asked to take out the BCG so that I could look it over, neither myself, nor the gun shop guy could push in the rear takedown pin, he finally resorted to using a brass punch and whacked it several times very forcefully, not tapping mind you, WHACKING IT. Then, of course, it wouldn't go back in... I thought it was funny, when he asked me, do you still want it? Ummm...... no......
I don't have a clue how they got it together at the factory.
I'm one of those people who got a good Bushmaster several years ago.
It has given me excellent service for years. But... I'm also a tinkerer.
This rifle has been apart and upgraded a number of time over the years, to the extent that the only factory Bushmaster parts left, are the upper housing and the lower receiver.
Does that still make it a Bushmaster? :)
The version that you see in these photos is still wearing its 16" barrel, but once my Form 1 returns with its tax stamp, she will once again be modified, this time with a 12.5" barrel.
Are they ever really "done"? ;)
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/4/4/4/1/cqbr-005.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/4/4/4/1/cqbr-017.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/4/4/4/1/cqbr-008.jpg
http://www.mdshooters.com/gallery/files/4/4/4/1/cqbr-007.jpg
Have you replaced the barrel?
no need, still shoots great...
very nice, i have had nothing but great experiences with mine so im not sure what people are talking about when they say they arent quality, i think its a lot of brand myopism
Are they ever really "done"? ;)
Wow, I am shocked. Considering many barrels will not last that long. I would love to get my hands on your BM and check the headspace and as well as throat erosion and the gas port.
When I was doing some work at a particular companies training facility we had numerous BM barrels that had eroded gas ports that would eventually lead to failures.
no need, still shoots great...
yea, i see where you are coming from, i just work at a gun shop and bushmaster is so much better to deal with.
Mine comes from first hand experience. A bolt that broke during a firefight and many other that started to fail due to eroded gas ports, non 5.56 chambers and issues of bolt bounce.
Of course my sample size was based on 500 carbines.
very nice, i have had nothing but great experiences with mine so im not sure what people are talking about when they say they arent quality, i think its a lot of brand myopism
Are they ever really "done"? ;)
JR TACTICAL
08-24-10, 23:30
from my experience the price comes down to the quality of parts used or what makes the rifle the most "milspec". the more milspec the rifle is the higher the cost. The fact that those "quality rifles" jamed could come down to alot of things including ammo used or proper cleaning/lubrication. DD, LWRC and BCM are very good quality and from the research I have done DD, and BCM are the 2 most milspec rifles on the market today besides colt.
no need, still shoots great...
What is the definition of "shoots great?" Let's see some 10rd targets at 100yds please.
I know of a Yugo with 200,000 miles on it (still runs "great"). Does that mean that the Yugo car (as a whole is a smart purchase)? NO.
Some questions for you:
1. At what round count did your bolt break?
2. When did you purchase the weapon?
3. How much money did you spend on Ammo?
C4
I just work at a gun shop and bushmaster is so much better to deal with.
How so? What is so good about them?
C4
yea, i see where you are coming from, i just work at a gun shop and bushmaster is so much better to deal with.
This statement leaves a lot to be desired...
As compared to who specifically are they better to deal with?
In specifically what way are they "better" to deal with?
Who all have you dealt with; and how many times have you dealt with each?
i think its a lot of brand myopism
Oh nevermind....
Wow, I am shocked. Considering many barrels will not last that long. I would love to get my hands on your BM and check the headspace and as well as throat erosion and the gas port.
When I was doing some work at a particular companies training facility we had numerous BM barrels that had eroded gas ports that would eventually lead to failures.
Mine comes from first hand experience. A bolt that broke during a firefight and many other that started to fail due to eroded gas ports, non 5.56 chambers and issues of bolt bounce.
Of course my sample size was based on 500 carbines.
Hey Iraqgunz, how do I check my ARs for eroding gas ports? Do I just take off the sight base or gas block and look at the port, what am I looking for? Also not to get off topic but what exactly causes the erosion of gas ports, and can it be prevented?
Lastly... What did you do when the bolt broke in the firefight?
How the hell do you change a bolt with a 300 degrees bolt carrier? :suicide:
.
See below.
Hey Iraqgunz, how do I check my ARs for eroding gas ports? Do I just take off the sight base or gas block and look at the port, what am I looking for? Also not to get off topic but what exactly causes the erosion of gas ports, and can it be prevented?
Gas port erosion is essentiall caused by heat (hot gas) and small particles being forced through the port. All AR's will essentially suffer from it and it is accelerated when firing full auto. The only way to check it is by using a bore scope.
Lastly... What did you do when the bolt broke in the firefight?
How the hell do you change a bolt with a 300 degrees bolt carrier? :suicide:
The bolt in question broke during an engagement back in early 2007. The weapon in question belonged to the security team leader. He was essentially screwed and just grabbed his pistol.
5918
.
MarshallDodge
08-25-10, 19:14
Good for you BFI, you should consider yourself one of the lucky few to not only got a Bushmaster to run for 25,000 rounds but any AR for that matter.
The amazing part about your gun is how new the outside of your gun looks. Is that a refinish or do you mind telling me how you keep it so pretty?
GermanSynergy
08-25-10, 20:38
25,000 rds w/o parts failure or throat erosion is simply amazing....
I've got 18k through a Bushmaster barrel and bolt assembly. Anything is possible. Ive had to replace 4 cam pins, 2 spring loaded ejector assemblies,4 claw extractor assemblies(1 BROKE @ a VTAC class),3 sets of rings( One piece now) and 1 firing pin in the process. And to think most of the ammo was Wolf. Im scared to check it for throat errosion. But damn if the action isn't smooth.
5925
What is the definition of "shoots great?" Let's see some 10rd targets at 100yds please.
I know of a Yugo with 200,000 miles on it (still runs "great"). Does that mean that the Yugo car (as a whole is a smart purchase)? NO.
Some questions for you:
1. At what round count did your bolt break?
2. When did you purchase the weapon?
3. How much money did you spend on Ammo?
C4
1. the bolt didn't break, i replaced it at approx 19,000 with a fail zero bcg (love it).
2. i purchased the weapon the beginning of last year from a shop in grand rapids Michigan who had it for a while and wanted to make a deal on it, i paid 1190 otd.
3. i can usually get 400 at a time of the american eagle xm193 5.56 fmj for about 125-135 because of my discount where i work. i shoot just about every weekend (and quite a bit in between) with my friends; and to address some of the comments above we all use that solvent/lube super quick clean guns and usually the same ammo or similar (umc, pmc, wolf, and a few high rollers use hornady).
i dont have any 10 round targets, but a few targets close to that i saved, i will post a pic.
i am not saying the other guns out there are cheap, or in any way saying they are worse quality than Bushmaster, i was simply putting my experience out there for people who would be interested, and asking for some advice. i decided my next one will probably be a DD just because i like the overall quality control standards and the feel of the gun.
the above target was shot with a C-more 8moa at 100 yards prone unsupported
Good for you BFI, you should consider yourself one of the lucky few to not only got a Bushmaster to run for 25,000 rounds but any AR for that matter.
The amazing part about your gun is how new the outside of your gun looks. Is that a refinish or do you mind telling me how you keep it so pretty?
I clean it religiously, and use Super Quick Clean Guns, its the best i have found. i also use it on a lot of my old collectible guns (Winchester Model 94 in .32 spec and others) and it is a great lube/protectant, and i dont drop it ;)
the camera hides a lot of scratches and dings plus who posts a pic of their pride and joy showing her bad side:D?
How so? What is so good about them?
C4
Customer service/Dealer service is top notch, if you have any question at all call them and they will help, plus they want you to be satisfied, in my experience with LWRC, and DD they could care less whether you bought their product or not. i have dealt with Bushmaster, DPMS, LWRC, DD, RRA, Armalite, and a couple small other companies numerous times and Bushmaster's people are the best to talk to and to work with.
Let me tell you how great there customer service is. I sent them an email from Iraq with a picture of the bolt. I asked them some questions about it, and whether or not they HP/MPI test their stuff.
I never received a reply. I subsequently emailed them again 2 more times and never would they take the time to answer.
Fast foward in mid 2008. My company had 500 BM carbines that were outfited with YHM rails, some POS front sight mounted over the shaved gas block and a rear YHM sight. All of the sights were made from aluminum.
Many of the sights were damaged and I needed to get replacement ones to fix our stuff. YHM couldn't sell them to us because of some "exclusive agreement" they had with BM. So we contacted BM directly. Initially they refused to sell them to us. So I called in a favor with a friend who has a lot of pull in the industry and he made a few calls and was able to make a deal for us.
Great news! Except Bushmaster bent us over and broke it off in us. They charged us 200.00 per set for crappy ass sights. Unfortunately we had to do it because we needed all of the carbines to be identical.
Later I got that changed and we were able to substitute. So much for customer service and taking care of those in harms way!
Customer service/Dealer service is top notch, if you have any question at all call them and they will help, plus they want you to be satisfied, in my experience with LWRC, and DD they could care less whether you bought their product or not. i have dealt with Bushmaster, DPMS, LWRC, DD, RRA, Armalite, and a couple small other companies numerous times and Bushmaster's people are the best to talk to and to work with.
I used to work Firearms wholesale. We dealt with Colt, LMT, BM, and DPMS. Bushmaster was nowhere near the top of the list on Customer service. Ironically I would actually put DPMS at the top. Of course I am sure they have a lot of practice dealing with costumer problems so that could have something to do with it....
Anyway, count me among the people shocked at an 18 month old carbine with 25K rounds on it and still using the original barrel. Not to mention how nice and shiny it is on the outside. I am not saying a BM could not go 25K rounds, but.....
Crow Hunter
08-27-10, 07:17
Anyway, count me among the people shocked at an 18 month old carbine with 25K rounds on it and still using the original barrel. Not to mention how nice and shiny it is on the outside. I am not saying a BM could not go 25K rounds, but.....
Wow. I didn't catch that earlier.
25,000 rds in 18 months is 1,388 rounds/month or 347 rds/week.
At $125/400 rds that is $434/month in ammo.
Wow.
That is almost 1/2 my house payment a month in just ammo.
I wish I could get away with that, my wife would KILL me.
In any case, good on you for spending so much time training and congratulations with having such great luck with your rifle.
ETA:
To the OP, I was trying to be sarcastic, it didn't come through well. Are you sure you didn't "accidentally" add in an extra 0?
Failure2Stop
08-27-10, 07:36
Just in case any other readers out there have not figured it out, this thread is full of serious deviations from known standard and track record of many companies.
I am detecting a heavy scent of BS.
Unfortunately, all we have are words on a monitor to verify anything, as opposed to decades of experience from professionals in the field. Draw your own conclusions people.
25k in 18 months! Its taken me since the mid 90's to put 18k through mine and my rifle shows the signs of its age. Starting to smell like Mall Ninja revisited.
Failure2stop my friend, I agree with you. When I first started reading this post I was courious how many posts it would take before someone called BS on this. I started doing a little math in my head while reading the replies and thought "why is no one else catching this? Ignore this drive-by flamer. Just wants justification for his purchase. I too have a BM that is 100% reliable after 3.5 years and pushing about 4800 rounds, but I don't need to tell you all about it!
Ignore the BS here guys - don't feed the beast.:nono:
1. the bolt didn't break, i replaced it at approx 19,000 with a fail zero bcg (love it).
Did it have any cracks in it?
2. i purchased the weapon the beginning of last year from a shop in grand rapids Michigan who had it for a while and wanted to make a deal on it, i paid 1190 otd.
Ok, it is math time. So let's assume you bought the gun in Jan. 2009. From that date to today, that is 20 months. So that means that you are shooting around 1,250rds a month. You also live in one of the coldest states in the union. So unless you have an indoor range that allows .223, you (at best) only had between 14-16 months to shoot. So that means that you were pulling the trigger 1,562 times a month.
3. i can usually get 400 at a time of the american eagle xm193 5.56 fmj for about 125-135 because of my discount where i work. i shoot just about every weekend (and quite a bit in between) with my friends; and to address some of the comments above we all use that solvent/lube super quick clean guns and usually the same ammo or similar (umc, pmc, wolf, and a few high rollers use hornady).
More math. If we pick a middle ground between $125 and $135, you paid about .32 cents per round. That comes out to $128 per 400rds. That means that that you paid $8,000 dolalrs for 25,000rds.
I own a gun shop and get a lot of my ammo for FREE. What isn't FREE is a 100% write off for me. I do not shoot as much as you do (train with profressional instructors several times a year, teach carbine classes once a month and train on my own). Couple that with what gun store employees typically make and I am finding it hard to believe that you shot that many rounds (sorry).
C4
Customer service/Dealer service is top notch, if you have any question at all call them and they will help, plus they want you to be satisfied, in my experience with LWRC, and DD they could care less whether you bought their product or not. i have dealt with Bushmaster, DPMS, LWRC, DD, RRA, Armalite, and a couple small other companies numerous times and Bushmaster's people are the best to talk to and to work with.
To be honest, you shouldn't really have to talk to their CS. In the last 6yrs, I have called LMT ONE TIME for a "fit and finish" issue on a gun.
Being friends with a companies CS dept, is not a good sign.
C4
BULLSHIT
There is no way that BM has 25K rds through, 800+ mag changes and not a scratch.
O yeah, then there is the $$ factor.
" i am not saying the other guns out there are cheap, or in any way saying they are worse quality than Bushmaster, i was simply putting my experience out there for people who would be interested, and asking for some advice. i decided my next one will probably be a DD just because i like the overall quality control standards and the feel of the gun.
the above target was shot with a C-more 8moa at 100 yards prone unsupported"
Yeah, thanks for your experience .... bringing alot to the table. Can see folks beating down your door for advice. What the hell is prone unsupported supposed to mean.
assclown meter pegged, ar15knob.com wants their posterchild back
a DD, RRA, LWRC, and a BCM upper on a Bushy lower. we were shooting and my gun wasnt missing a beat but the others were jamming machines
Did your friends send their DD and BCM back to the factory for repair? What was wrong with them?
Or is the op a work of fiction?
And what does "BFI" in your alias mean?
Considering that Bushmaster says that their chromed lined barrels are good for 10,000 rounds, I find it hard to believe that the OP got over twice that out of his.
I have not dealt with BM since 93 because of their customer service/ business practice.
BULLSHIT
assclown meter pegged, ar15knob.com wants their posterchild back
:suicide:
HAhahhahaha
Cam
ShortytheFirefighter
08-27-10, 15:27
After reading his previous posts, I'm finding it hard to believe his claims as well. Anyone who can drop 8k on ammo isn't going to seriously look at a Vortex Strikefire as an optic when they can spend a little bit more for an Aimpoint or EoTech. Needing to "let the wallet cool off" before buying a KX3 falls into the same category. If you can burn that much money in ammo, having enough for gear shouldn't be that hard.
After reading his previous posts, I'm finding it hard to believe his claims as well. Anyone who can drop 8k on ammo isn't going to seriously look at a Vortex Strikefire as an optic when they can spend a little bit more for an Aimpoint or EoTech. Needing to "let the wallet cool off" before buying a KX3 falls into the same category. If you can burn that much money in ammo, having enough for gear shouldn't be that hard.
Yep, and trying to belittle the best AR makers out there makes him worse than a Liar.
jstephens202
08-27-10, 15:45
For what it's worth, I've had a Bushmaster for awhile and it's always worked great for me. It was the best I could afford at the time, and since it's still working great (for me), since it ain't broke I ain't gonna fix it. That I am content with my Bushie for now doesn't preclude me from getting a more reputable brand(i.e. expensive) in the future. Of course getting another AR of any kind would mean my wife is in a coma!:haha:
He definitely had an agenda from the get go; especially bashing top tier brands to the people who know them the best. Why even buy a BM (Why even think about it at all!) when you can afford $8K in ammo in less than a year? There is just no reason a BM could be justified with those kind of liquid funds available!
Slangin bullshit for sure!
Funny he hasn't replied since he was called out...
If you search all his post, I suspect he bought this gun in May...
If you search all his post, I suspect he bought this gun in May...
+1 I bet you're right that he bought it between April and May of this year; going by his past posts it would make perfect sense...
Hmm So lets figure 4 months. That is about 6250 rounds per month which is 208 rounds per day on an average month. Figure that most people can only shoot a couple days a week at best (Lets call it 5 for the month) and we have him at 1250 rounds per day of shooting.
Now that is dedication.
I think that this thread has run it's course. Unless someone can convince me that we need to keep it open.
To the OP. Your experience basically contradicts that of many of us who have been dealing with the AR platform for many years. And the claim of 25K rounds in a questionable period of time is suspect at best.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.