HK Product line?

[An Undocumented Worker]

I hear good things about HK pistols but for the life of me cannot figure out thier product lineup. Such as why certain models seem to overlap others in the niche they fill.


I guess I'm looking for an explanation as to why they have the product lineup they have, and what purposes or design characteristics each basic model line up fills.

I am not concerned about caliber differences. More or less keep the discusion centered on 9mm if possible.

[TOrrock]

You mean why they have the USP Compact, P2000, and P30 in production at the same time?

[Complication]

I know nothing about HK pistols but a brief look at their website reveals a product line which isn't overly crowded (except the dozen different variations of the USP). It doesn't look too far off from other manufacturers I've seen.

From some of the descriptions, some models might have been specially designed upon request from a particular LE agency or gov't. Further, some contracts may mandate they produce one design for 10, 15, 20 years--meanwhile their engineers can produce something which fills the same niche but is superior so they go ahead and make both.

I'm not well versed in the pistol industry, but Glock is the only manufacturer I'm familiar with where you can thumb down a matrix, pick caliber and size, and they've got a single model for you.

[An Undocumented Worker]

You mean why they have the USP Compact, P2000, and P30 in production at the same time?

Yeah thats where most of my confusion comes from.

[TOrrock]

Well, the USP Compacts offer a Condition 1 cocked and locked single action carry option, the P2000 is a slimmed down DA model, and the P30 is the new hotness, but with a different trigger/decocking mechanism.

I can't answer for HK, but each of the three models above offers a different mode of carry.

[CyberM4]

Look at it this way. P2000 upgrade over the USP. P30 upgrade from the P2000. P30 are the new kids on the block for HK. Plus the HK45 and HK45C. Go too your LGS and pick one up and go from there. You can't go wrong with any. My last HK I bought is my USPc SS 40. Which has over 4400+ rounds since I bought it.

[chriskc04]

There are a few more details if you REALLY care. Was there something in particular you were looking for?

BTW, http://hkpro.com/forum/ has some decent discussions if you'd like to taste the kool-aid.

[An Undocumented Worker]

There are a few more details if you REALLY care. Was there something in particular you were looking for?

BTW, http://hkpro.com/forum/ has some decent discussions if you'd like to taste the kool-aid.

Not really anything in particular that I'm looking for, just trying to understand thier lineup. HK lists all the details about thier guns but with no real description of why what does what.

S&W has well differentiated lineups, with different purposes readily apparent

Glock variations of the same gun, just diff sizes and calibers.

CZ, compacts, full size, and then railed versions of each

Sig, no Idea, don't really care.

And not really interested in buying an HK at this time, They just seem interesting and am trying to understand why they make what they make.

[skyugo]

you think that's bad try to figure out which sig to buy :o

[montrala]

In HK you have two lines now:

First goes from Mark 23 Mod 0 to all versions of full size USP. USP Compact belongs to this line, but have different recoil system (this system is carried on on second line). Those are going live as long as some militaries will buy them, no a second longer.

Second line is more modern, usually purpose build handguns:
P2000 - ergonomy upgrade over USP Compact with simplified trigger system, made to won German Police tender against P99. Designated for open and concealed carry
P2000SK - sub-compact version of P2000 made for plainclothes police officers, same internals as P2000 excep dual recoil spring system (like now in Gen4 Glocks). Designated for concealed carry.
P30 - strongly upgraded P2000 made for German Border Guard tender - internals same as P2000, but lot's of ergonomy improovements and bigger mag capacity. Designated for open carry.
P30L - longer slide/barrel version of P30 made for Norwegian Police tender
P30S/P30LS - added manual safety, avaiable with all triggers versions , but makes most sense with V3 (SA/DA) trigger.
HK45 - egronomy wise based on P30 (or co-developed with), modern .45 made for JSP programme - trigger mechanism similar but not interchangeable with P2000/P30 series (some parts common to USP and HK45c). Designated for open carry.
HK45c - ergonomy wise based on P2000 (lacks some improovements from P30/HK45 like relocated magazine lever) compact .45 made for JSP programme - trigger system similar to HK45 (with some parts common to USP and HK45). Designated for open and concealed carry.

Trigger systems line for P30/P30L/P30S/P30LS are detailed here:

http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailPara/1925/137/4/21/263

CDA acronym is used for trigger system called LEM in US.

Can't say much on HK45 HK45c trigger line, as those are not avaible here.

Basically HK45/HK45c models overlap with HK USP / HK USP Compact (and Mark 23) line. While P2000 line and P30 lines overaps but P2000 series are more slim line / low profile - better suited for CCW use. P30/P30L is good for CCW as well (I can carry my P30L in AIWB holster easily) but are bigger than P2000 and very grippy grip (sic!) can be hard on bare skin or those damm expensice UnderArmour shirts ;) For range use or open carry P30 line beats P2000 line in all arreas.

All mess comes from HKs approach to business. They do not make new model and hope someone will buy it. They look for fat tenders, read user requirements and prepare new model to suit this tender. That is how P2000/P2000SK/P30/P30L were made. HK45 and HK45c were made to submit in JSP, but due to JSP cancellation HK decided to go with them to market anyway - but this is exception that just confirm rule.

My personal choice is P2000SK for CCW (will probably ad P30S V3 or V0 for winter to replace P2000 that I sold) and P30L V0 for range/IDPA/multigun use.

[TheSmiter1]

Here's what I gather, from information read here:

The USP and USPc are the old models. Full size and compact.

The P2000sk is HK's modern subcompact, like Glock's model 26, ect.

The P2000 and HK45c are HK's modern compacts, like Glock's model 19, ect.

The HK P30 and HK45 are HK's modern full sizes.

So basically, the P series and HK45 series are the current models, and include subcompact (no .45 available), compact (.45 available), and full size (.45 available), while the USP is the old model (though still good to go, by most accounts).

It seems like they actually have a pretty Glock-esque method to their madness. That's what it seems like to me, anyway.

[Alpha Sierra]

In HK you have two lines now:

First goes from Mark 23 Mod 0 to all versions of full size USP. USP Compact belongs to this line, but have different recoil system (this system is carried on on second line). Those are going live as long as some militaries will buy them, no a second longer.

Second line is more modern, usually purpose build handguns:
P2000 - ergonomy upgrade over USP Compact with simplified trigger system, made to won German Police tender against P99. Designated for open and concealed carry
P2000SK - sub-compact version of P2000 made for plainclothes police officers, same internals as P2000 excep dual recoil spring system (like now in Gen4 Glocks). Designated for concealed carry.
P30 - strongly upgraded P2000 made for German Border Guard tender - internals same as P2000, but lot's of ergonomy improovements and bigger mag capacity. Designated for open carry.
P30L - longer slide/barrel version of P30 made for Norwegian Police tender
P30S/P30LS - added manual safety, avaiable with all triggers versions , but makes most sense with V3 (SA/DA) trigger.
HK45 - egronomy wise based on P30 (or co-developed with), modern .45 made for JSP programme - trigger mechanism similar but not interchangeable with P2000/P30 series (some parts common to USP and HK45c). Designated for open carry.
HK45c - ergonomy wise based on P2000 (lacks some improovements from P30/HK45 like relocated magazine lever) compact .45 made for JSP programme - trigger system similar to HK45 (with some parts common to USP and HK45). Designated for open and concealed carry.

Trigger systems line for P30/P30L/P30S/P30LS are detailed here:

http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailPara/1925/137/4/21/263

CDA acronym is used for trigger system called LEM in US.

Can't say much on HK45 HK45c trigger line, as those are not avaible here.

Basically HK45/HK45c models overlap with HK USP / HK USP Compact (and Mark 23) line. While P2000 line and P30 lines overaps but P2000 series are more slim line / low profile - better suited for CCW use. P30/P30L is good for CCW as well (I can carry my P30L in AIWB holster easily) but are bigger than P2000 and very grippy grip (sic!) can be hard on bare skin or those damm expensice UnderArmour shirts ;) For range use or open carry P30 line beats P2000 line in all arreas.

All mess comes from HKs approach to business. They do not make new model and hope someone will buy it. They look for fat tenders, read user requirements and prepare new model to suit this tender. That is how P2000/P2000SK/P30/P30L were made. HK45 and HK45c were made to submit in JSP, but due to JSP cancellation HK decided to go with them to market anyway - but this is exception that just confirm rule.

My personal choice is P2000SK for CCW (will probably ad P30S V3 or V0 for winter to replace P2000 that I sold) and P30L V0 for range/IDPA/multigun use.

Best explanation yet. Thanks

[montrala]

Best explanation yet. Thanks

No problem!

Even HKool-Aid drinkers like to be helpfull from time to time :sarcastic:

[Entropy]

Best explanation yet. Thanks

That is H&K in a nutshell. They produce guns for competative military and police contracts. Which means that their equipment is top of the line in design, quality control, and materials.

If you want something that is boringly reliable, durable, and performs well.....get an H&K.

[Skyyr]

I'll add in that the the USP line is the line that "offers everything" in a modular format, while the other pistol lines are purpose-built, as someone above said.

The USP can EASILY be converted to left-hand/right-hand, DAO (LEM), safety/no-safety, etc. It's basically a modular military pistol with boring reliability.

While the other lines offer more updated ergonomics and systems, they come up short in other areas. The P30 is a modernized USP, but with an aggressive stippling/texturing - I don't like it and many others don't either. I prefer standard grips that I can add to or modify later. If you want to carry cocked and locked or require a manual safety, the P2000 doesn't offer a safety. The H&K 45 fullsize is a great gun, but has the same stippling as the P30. The H&K 45 Compact does not have the stippling and is modeled more after the P2000.

Hopefully they'll make a revised USP or offer the P30 without the crappy stippling. Until then, I prefer my USP.

[chriskc04]

+1 to montrala's being the best yet.

FWIW, I CCW a P2000 in a Raven rig (thank you Templar), soon to be HK45c for winter. Replaced a P229 (also in a Raven rig) if for no other reason than it was thinner and lighter, and therefore hurt my big, hurt back (much) less.

I also conceal my P30 from time to time. I thought the texture would be more of a problem than it actually is. Then again, I had a set of Hogue aluminum grips on a P229 that I swear were adapted from a cheese grater design.

[Abraxas]

In HK you have two lines now:

First goes from Mark 23 Mod 0 to all versions of full size USP. USP Compact belongs to this line, but have different recoil system (this system is carried on on second line). Those are going live as long as some militaries will buy them, no a second longer.

Second line is more modern, usually purpose build handguns:
P2000 - ergonomy upgrade over USP Compact with simplified trigger system, made to won German Police tender against P99. Designated for open and concealed carry
P2000SK - sub-compact version of P2000 made for plainclothes police officers, same internals as P2000 excep dual recoil spring system (like now in Gen4 Glocks). Designated for concealed carry.
P30 - strongly upgraded P2000 made for German Border Guard tender - internals same as P2000, but lot's of ergonomy improovements and bigger mag capacity. Designated for open carry.
P30L - longer slide/barrel version of P30 made for Norwegian Police tender
P30S/P30LS - added manual safety, avaiable with all triggers versions , but makes most sense with V3 (SA/DA) trigger.
HK45 - egronomy wise based on P30 (or co-developed with), modern .45 made for JSP programme - trigger mechanism similar but not interchangeable with P2000/P30 series (some parts common to USP and HK45c). Designated for open carry.
HK45c - ergonomy wise based on P2000 (lacks some improovements from P30/HK45 like relocated magazine lever) compact .45 made for JSP programme - trigger system similar to HK45 (with some parts common to USP and HK45). Designated for open and concealed carry.

Trigger systems line for P30/P30L/P30S/P30LS are detailed here:

http://www.heckler-koch.de/HKWebText/detailPara/1925/137/4/21/263

CDA acronym is used for trigger system called LEM in US.

Can't say much on HK45 HK45c trigger line, as those are not avaible here.

Basically HK45/HK45c models overlap with HK USP / HK USP Compact (and Mark 23) line. While P2000 line and P30 lines overaps but P2000 series are more slim line / low profile - better suited for CCW use. P30/P30L is good for CCW as well (I can carry my P30L in AIWB holster easily) but are bigger than P2000 and very grippy grip (sic!) can be hard on bare skin or those damm expensice UnderArmour shirts ;) For range use or open carry P30 line beats P2000 line in all arreas.

All mess comes from HKs approach to business. They do not make new model and hope someone will buy it. They look for fat tenders, read user requirements and prepare new model to suit this tender. That is how P2000/P2000SK/P30/P30L were made. HK45 and HK45c were made to submit in JSP, but due to JSP cancellation HK decided to go with them to market anyway - but this is exception that just confirm rule.

My personal choice is P2000SK for CCW (will probably ad P30S V3 or V0 for winter to replace P2000 that I sold) and P30L V0 for range/IDPA/multigun use.

Exellent post,:cool:

[Entropy]

Montrala,

What trigger setup is most popular in Europe for the H&Ks?

[montrala]

What trigger setup is most popular in Europe for the H&Ks?

For civilan sales either classic SA/DA (USP, USP Compact) or V3 SA/DA with de-cocker (P2000/P30 series). Also V0 "LEM" (it's like LEM with spurred hammer and de-cocker - something like LEM/DA) in P2000 series and V1 LEM in P30. But most of people do not appreciate LEM here. P30S/P30LS are not avaliable here so far (neither in Germany)

For Police use V0 LEM in Germany and V3 SA/DA in Norway. German Border Guard use V3 SA/DA - at least that is what info I get - best if someone from Germany or Norway chime in with first hand knowledge. Militaries stick to classic SA/DA (USP, USPC) - those are conservative folks. I've shown LEM to some SF operatives here (they use USP in sandbox), they liked it, but decided to stay with SA/DA.

Personally I converted my P30 and P30L from V3 (SA/DA) to V0 (LEM/DA) and my P2000SK from V0 to V2 (7lb LEM). I've made several SA/DA to LEM conversions on USP for my friends, but conversion kits are only avaliable from US - HK is a strange company :suicide:

[HK45]

HK45 and HK45c were made to submit in JSP, but due to JSP cancellation HK decided to go with them to market anyway - but this is exception that just confirm rule.

No. This is a common misconception. The HK 45 was in development before the JSP. In fact I disagree with your entire premise that HK makes pistols to fit a specific contract.
I see no reason for the USP series to continue in production and that silly MK 23 should have gone away a long time ago. I suppose they are still selling it to people who think the spooky units actually want or use it.

[jwperry]

No. This is a common misconception. The HK 45 was in development before the JSP. In fact I disagree with your entire premise that HK makes pistols to fit a specific contract.
I see no reason for the USP series to continue in production and that silly MK 23 should have gone away a long time ago. I suppose they are still selling it to people who think the spooky units actually want or use it.
I agree with the MK23 and production has recently been stopped.
The USP line though is the official sidearm of what, 7 militaries in Europe? That is why that won't go away any time soon.

The USP and P-Series(Hk45/Hk45c included) Hk pistols, being in production at the same time, are no different than Glock producing Gen 3 and Gen 4 pistols at the same time. There is demand for both lines and there are military/law enforcement contractual obligations to meet requiring both stay in production.

But, I do suppose that Hk could probably cut production of the USP Expert and USP Elite lines...but I want to buy a Expert45 first. :D

[The Dumb Gun Collector]

Excellent post Montrala.

[Magic_Salad0892]

I wish they made a P2000 with an inch longer barrel.

Ergonomically the best H&K pistol they make. JMHO.

[jwperry]

I wish they made a P2000 with an inch longer barrel.

Ergonomically the best H&K pistol they make. JMHO.

P30L with the smallest side panels and your preferred size back strap should give you this, plus it has a more positively textured frame.

[ThirdWatcher]

BTW, http://hkpro.com/forum/ has some decent discussions if you'd like to taste the kool-aid.

Hey, I like the taste of H&K kool-aid! :D