View Full Version : P30 .40, Sig 229 .40, or M&P .40 on duty?
So it looks like my department is expanding our list of authorized firearms from just Sig .40s, to P30 and M&P .40s. I have about a decade of experience with the P229, but very limited experience with the P30 and the M&P. All of them feel different from the pointability, the grips, the trigger, to the recoil. I have confidence that I can master any of the three, but I often wonder from a long term servicabilty question.....which would be a better choice.
The logical solution for many would be to stick with the Sig. However, over the years I have observed Sig's quality degenerate with time and I am beginning to lack confidence in their equipment.
So, if I stuck with the Sig, I would continue to use my P229 .40 and would likely buy a second one as a backup. If I went with the M&P, it would be the standard sized model with no manual safety. If I went with the P30, I have the option of the LEM or standard DA/SA trigger. I work in Florida with lots of sweat, sea spray, and sand.
John_Wayne777
08-24-10, 15:38
While Sig's overall quality is indeed diminished from their peak and they're producing lines of weapons these days that suck (P250), the P229 is still, in my opinion, a fairly good bet as far as handguns go. Especially if they are being purchased on an LE contract of decent size. (Although I'm familiar with a number of departments that have ordered guns and received weapons that either didn't work out of the box or broke at inappropriately low round counts) Often those contracts specify higher levels of QC which means that the armed professional has a better shot at avoiding a problematic firearm than the average visitor to the gunstore. Not a guarantee, mind you...but a better shot at least.
Speaking personally, in your position I would stick with the Sig. It's your issue gun and it apparently is working well enough to keep being issued.
P30.
Why? Because H&K's "Hostile Environment" finish is second only to Glock's Tennifer, because M&P's are soul-less, and because I've yet to see a modern Sig do this (http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668).
gtmtnbiker98
08-24-10, 18:03
P30, pick your variant.
M&P40 w/Apex Duty Kit, although if you are used to the P229, the P30 might also be a good option.
Lucky Strike
08-24-10, 19:31
My vote is the P30 but that's just because I went through the same dilemma (P30 or M&P) and chose the H&K
varoadking
08-24-10, 19:52
finish is second only to Glock's Tennifer
Tenifer...one "n"...
Sorry - "Tennifer" is a pet peave of mine...not sure why...
I own a 229R (2007 production with SRT), used to own a rail-less 229 and am issued a S&W M&P 40. My only experience with the P30 is in 9mm.
My recommendation would be to grab a S&W M&P 40.
I do not trust the current crop that Sig is producing...not one bit. I used to be a huge fan of the Sig platform and will never sell my old 226 9mm, but I refuse to purchase anything from the company until they fix their small parts and QC issues.
A neighboring PD where my buddy works just replaced their 140 older stamped slide 220's with new 220R's. In the last month or so during the transition they've already had a slidestop break as well as some other small parts. Not acceptable.
My department has fielded about 200 M&P's for the last three years. We have had no major issues with them. I find them to be ideal for the 40 S&W round with none of the light issues and wear problems seen in other platforms when using that round.
The P30 is has a shorter OAL (by about .6"), OAL (by less than .1"), and lighter (by about an ounce and a half) than the M&P. It's wider, though (about .2"), with a significantly shorter barrel (about .7"), and holds fewer rounds than the M&P (though it beats the P229). The P30's triggers, IMHO, are marginal at best. The DA on HKs is still heavy and creepy feeling on traditional DA/SA guns; and the reset on the LEM will probably not thrill you compared to the P229's. The P30's grip is, possibly, the best "feeling" pistol grip I've ever held; and is widely adjustable to fit YOUR hand. The P30's paddle magazine release is possibly the fastest and surest you'll ever find, once you train yourself to use it properly - but it's "unique," so you'll have to train yourself to get the best out of it. Lastly, the P30 is spendy, and, despite its hefty price tag, doesn't come with NS. Spare magazines are sometimes hard to find, and also expensive...
The M&P is the largest of the three, but for open carry duty use, I don't see that as an issue. It has the longest barrel, longest sight radius, and, arguably, the "best" trigger in that each pull is consistent and the reset is pretty darn short. On the down side, the trigger needs help out of the box, as the reset is very "soft" and hard to "catch" at speed - but those flaws are easily remedied with the Apex replacement parts. The M&P just never "felt" right in my hand, no matter what back strap I installed, but that's almost certainly the fault of my hand, not the pistol as many users find it perfectly fine. S&W has THE BEST, bar none, warranty and CS in the business - if anything goes wrong with your M&P, they'll make it right, at no cost to you, and FAST! The M&P is also SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than either option, leaving money for training and accessories.
Lastly the Sigs. I really LOVE Sigs, especially SHOOTING a Sig like my P226R (pre-2005) in 9mm. They're VERY accurate, due to their tight tolerances and precise machining. However, Sigs are pigs when it comes to size and especially WEIGHT efficiency. Seriously, either of the other options, LOADED will probably be the same weight as your P229 EMPTY. Ergonomics are very good, but the high bore axis over your hand likely makes the Sig "snappier" than either of the other options (though, if you haven't shot them side by side, you probably don't realize that yet). Nitron isn't very robust, and the un-treated controls on my Sigs would rust while I watched them, practically. Sigs are prone to losing things like grip screws - I've lost count of the number of grip screws I've had to replace in the last decade of my guns and the guns of other team mates.
My agency used to be "Sig only" for authorized personal weapons. So, for about three years, I carried that P226R in the heat and humidity of coastal SE TX. Every night I had to wipe down all the controls and screws with lubricant to prevent rust. Off duty, I carried an authorized S&W airweight, because the Sig was simply too much of a boat anchor to slip into the waistband of my shorts. As soon as the authorized list opened up, I got Glocks, and never looked back.
If I were in your shoes, I would probably get the M&P, and an M&P compact for off duty, and two sets of the APEX "enhancement" trigger components. I really don't think you'll be disappointed. If the M&P doesn't "feel" right in your hand, though, I'd go for the P30 - probably in the DA/SA, and think about sending it off to Gray Guns or some other competent smith to clean up the trigger a little.
Regards,
Kevin
The 229 was one of the best of the .40's in it's time but there are better options now. Plus as others have said Sigs QC is in the toilet. I like the HK a lot in 9 but would go with the M&P in .40 for sure. The M&P tames that snappy .40 recoil better than anything else I know of and has many other positive attributes.
The only thing I can REALLY speak to is how these concealed for me.
I found the M&P to be the least concealable, and the P30 the best (and most comfortable by far) for me.
As a general principle, I would maintain consistency between my duty and concealed weapons. One of those "under stress" things.
This is, of course, just what works for me. YMMV
GermanSynergy
08-25-10, 12:38
M&P 40 with DCAEK and sights of your choice. No brainer:cool:
hippieslayer
08-25-10, 15:25
I can't speak for the P30 in .40 but I can for it in 9mm. After shooting an M&P 9 and P30, I settled on the P30. The P30 pointed better for me, felt better in the hand, was more accurate (for me) and I really love the paddle mag release. After shooting a P30, I dont think Ill ever own another 9mm except maybe a P30 L. I would strongly consider a Sig 226 E2 if they got their quality control out of the shitter.
Thanks all. I think I'm going to go with the P30. Since I'm used to traditional DA/SA triggers, I think my overall training transition will be smoother and I just plain like the feel of the gun.
gtmtnbiker98
08-26-10, 14:14
Thanks all. I think I'm going to go with the P30. Since I'm used to traditional DA/SA triggers, I think my overall training transition will be smoother and I just plain like the feel of the gun.Good for you. Be sure to let us know how it works out.
Thanks all. I think I'm going to go with the P30. Since I'm used to traditional DA/SA triggers, I think my overall training transition will be smoother and I just plain like the feel of the gun.
Good deal. Maybe grace us with your appraisal of it?
John_Wayne777
08-26-10, 15:44
Just as a note of interest: From what I understand Bruce Gray of GrayGuns is some sort of wizzard with H&K double-action triggers and his work is reported by reliable sources to yield almost unbelievable results on H&K triggers. Not to say that your P30 will require a trigger job, but if you find the trigger is less than desirable there are remedies available.
Just as a note of interest: From what I understand Bruce Gray of GrayGuns is some sort of wizzard with H&K double-action triggers and his work is reported by reliable sources to yield almost unbelievable results on H&K triggers. Not to say that your P30 will require a trigger job, but if you find the trigger is less than desirable there are remedies available.
Thanks, I may have to consider that. I'm waiting till the middle of next month to buy the P30, so I'll be sure to give a report on it then. :)
Just as a note of interest: From what I understand Bruce Gray of GrayGuns is some sort of wizzard with H&K double-action triggers and his work is reported by reliable sources to yield almost unbelievable results on H&K triggers. Not to say that your P30 will require a trigger job, but if you find the trigger is less than desirable there are remedies available.
Mr. Gray is nothing short of a wizard! In the few talks I had with him over on Sigforum, he astounded me at his overall knowledge and professionalism.
When I first started 2 1/2 years ago, I went and bought a p30 9mm in v3 for duty carry. I trained on a glock 17 in the academy. I am authorized to carry whatever I can qualify on. Here are my observations on the p30
-Trigger- Not for me, the long and creepy double action was really hard for me to get a grasp on. I could not shoot it as well as a striker fired pistol.
-Grip- Super comfy of coarse.
-Holster- Pain in the ass to get myself a holster. Granted they were fairly new, but I couldn't find anything to fit with a light and safariland cs told me I'd have to special order (approx one month wait). I settled on a blackhawk level 3 without light. I've come to like the blackhawk holsters.
After putting several rounds through the pistol I had numerous problems with the gun stovepiping. The problem REALLY came out when my buddies girlfriend started to shoot it. It was stovepiping every round. I concluded that she was limp-wristing which the gun really did not like. I never could get rid of the stovepipes. Finally I called H&k customer service. They explained that the pistol really doesn't like 115gr. rounds due to the recoil spring. My duty rounds were 115gr. Winchester Silvertips. I explained to the service rep that I was law enforcement and the weapon was my duty gun. I did not have 100% trust in the gun and wanted to send it back. I asked the rep if I could send the gun in and have it inspected just in case. He advised they wouldn't cover it under warranty and I would have to pay. He told me to switch ammo and forget about. I'm sorry but no. Since that conversation, the gun has never been back in my rig. I still feel it's a good shooter, but I can't bring myself to put it back into service.
After putting several rounds through the pistol I had numerous problems with the gun stovepiping. The problem REALLY came out when my buddies girlfriend started to shoot it. It was stovepiping every round. I concluded that she was limp-wristing which the gun really did not like. I never could get rid of the stovepipes. Finally I called H&k customer service. They explained that the pistol really doesn't like 115gr. rounds due to the recoil spring. My duty rounds were 115gr. Winchester Silvertips. I explained to the service rep that I was law enforcement and the weapon was my duty gun. I did not have 100% trust in the gun and wanted to send it back. I asked the rep if I could send the gun in and have it inspected just in case. He advised they wouldn't cover it under warranty and I would have to pay. He told me to switch ammo and forget about. I'm sorry but no. Since that conversation, the gun has never been back in my rig. I still feel it's a good shooter, but I can't bring myself to put it back into service.
I've heard of the problems with the P30 and weak recoiling 115gr ammo. I guess this can be understandable from H&K's design intention for the P30 in Europe who use a lot of higher powered 9mm loadings. However, I'm gambling that the harder recoiling .40S&W will not have this problem in the P30.
I've heard of the problems with the P30 and weak recoiling 115gr ammo. I guess this can be understandable from H&K's design intention for the P30 in Europe who use a lot of higher powered 9mm loadings. However, I'm gambling that the harder recoiling .40S&W will not have this problem in the P30.
I would agree with you on that, but have no first hand experience. In my own opinion I was let down more by the attitude of the customer rep I spoke with than the actual pistol. In this line of work our equipment is a pretty big deal. I'd like a manufacturer or an employee of said manufacture to make me feel like they have my back.
My P30 runs perfectly on wally world WW 115gr target.
MarshallDodge
08-27-10, 18:18
My P30 runs perfectly on wally world WW 115gr target.
That is great but it still does not account for why HK did not take his gun back and check it out.
My only beef with HK is customer service.
Agreed....
Call Travis in their customer service dept.
They shipped Todd Green's with a too heavy hammer (main) spring that required replacement.
My point was that it should be an anomoly if it is not fully reliable with the 115 gr ammo.
hippieslayer
08-27-10, 21:05
My P30 runs perfectly on wally world WW 115gr target.
As does mine.
When I first started 2 1/2 years ago, I went and bought a p30 9mm in v3 for duty carry. I trained on a glock 17 in the academy. I am authorized to carry whatever I can qualify on. Here are my observations on the p30
-Trigger- Not for me, the long and creepy double action was really hard for me to get a grasp on. I could not shoot it as well as a striker fired pistol.
-Grip- Super comfy of coarse.
-Holster- Pain in the ass to get myself a holster. Granted they were fairly new, but I couldn't find anything to fit with a light and safariland cs told me I'd have to special order (approx one month wait). I settled on a blackhawk level 3 without light. I've come to like the blackhawk holsters.
After putting several rounds through the pistol I had numerous problems with the gun stovepiping. The problem REALLY came out when my buddies girlfriend started to shoot it. It was stovepiping every round. I concluded that she was limp-wristing which the gun really did not like. I never could get rid of the stovepipes. Finally I called H&k customer service. They explained that the pistol really doesn't like 115gr. rounds due to the recoil spring. My duty rounds were 115gr. Winchester Silvertips. I explained to the service rep that I was law enforcement and the weapon was my duty gun. I did not have 100% trust in the gun and wanted to send it back. I asked the rep if I could send the gun in and have it inspected just in case. He advised they wouldn't cover it under warranty and I would have to pay. He told me to switch ammo and forget about. I'm sorry but no. Since that conversation, the gun has never been back in my rig. I still feel it's a good shooter, but I can't bring myself to put it back into service.
From what I got from HK. The P30 was designed around 124. That's all I use in mine. I didn't have the problem you had. try some AE 124s.
Wow. That's really not cool, especially considering your duty ammo (and you're LE in the first place).
I've also worked with Travis. I'd be surprised if he didn't take care of you. Maybe give it another shot.
From what I got from HK. The P30 was designed around 124. That's all I use in mine. I didn't have the problem you had. try some AE 124s.
I could try every type of ammo I can get my hands on and shoot it at the range. It may function the gun fine, but It's always going to be in the back of my head, If I fire this gun in a dynamic situation, will it perform? In my mind the pistol is already confined to static range use.
In my mind my weapons and my training is a very personal thing. It's not that I don't like the p30's. The gun is definately the nicest feeling and softest shooting pistol I have ever shot. The p30 to me is like taking the hottest girl in school to the high school prom, and then figuring out she's not very compatible with you. As much as I wanted this gun to be my go-to, It's just not going to work for me.
To bring things back on topic, I don't know if you prefer a weapon-mounted light ( I do ) but I still can't find anything for the P series.
Both the x300 and TLR-1 work for mine.
Jay Cunningham
08-28-10, 09:00
ATTN: "best", "which", and "vs." Threads in the Handgun Forum (https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60651)
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