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K.L. Davis
07-29-06, 12:40
This word is getting thrown around a lot lately... let's take a look at what it implies and means.

First off, the term billet is most often improperly used... but like many things, it has been used for so long that the original meaning has become somewhat lost with the consumer market.

The term "billet" really refers to an rectagonal shape that is two squares in proportion -- it is commonly used to refer to the place where a military member sleeps and has been extended to include the general assignment that comes with the space.

However, the term is used in the world of making and machining metals -- first off, the term "billet construction" is more accurate as "machined from billet" or perhaps easier understood as "stock removal"... buts let's see how we arrive at that point.

Dealing primarily with aluminum, as that is mostly what we are talking about with the ARs -- nearly all refined metals start life as a casting... I know, we are all told that castings are evil and bad, but the fact is that nearly evey part of your rifle is made from a casting in one way or another.

The molten metals are poured into ingots, these are the first shapes and are generally very large -- even the aluminum ingots can weigh as much as 10 tons.

These ingots are rolled into plates... these are large, thick plates that can be further cut into more managible stock or billets. These billets are often then forged or extruded into more precise shapes for finish machining.

I am not going to get into the line between forging and extruding... but forging is primarily where a piece of metal is worked into a shape through hammering, upsetting, rolling or pressing -- in the most common (and simplest) terms, a piece of metal is placed in a shaped die and then hammered or forced to fill that shape through mechanical pressure. A good example of forging is the traditional hammer and anvil shaping of a knife blade.

During forging, the metal can be solid or heated to be softer... Casting is where the metal is fully molten and then "poured" into the shaped die, where it freely flows into the all the areas of the shape (hopefully).

Extrusions are where metals are forced under great pressure through a hole... and in turn take on the shape and dimensions of that hole -- a lot of you probably had a childhood toy that forced a type of dough into little star shaped ropes, via a sort of "toothpaste" squeezing.

Both extrusions and forgings require that a mold or die be made for the part... this can be an investment of a few thousand to several hundered thousand dollars -- for this reason, these techniques are traditionally associated with more "mass production" parts.

Machined from billet is simply where the raw billet is not preshaped, it is thrown on a table and machined into the final part... somewhat like the old joke that to make a life size statue of an elephant, you just get 200 tons of granite and chip away everything that does not look like an elephant.

Machined from billet parts are often associated with a high level of quality, as in the past the part would have had a machine operator oversee each part of the manufacture and actually turn the hand wheels on a knee-mill for each dimension -- today, CNC machines reduce that amount of time and labort involved greatly, but the technique is still the most labor intensive.

Which is better? It is impossible to make one statment as to which is better, it depends too much on what the purpose of the part is, the particulars of how it was actually made and finished and what the most sought after end trait is. Each technique has distinct advantages, or they would not still be around.

Forgings - These tend to offer good grain struture, but can require additional stress relieving and treating -- keep in mind that the part was literally beaten into submission. Forgings can be as strong or stronger than machined from billet parts, but may be subject to problems with dimensional stability.

Machined From Billet - These parts are often very precise in dimension and usually very strong and stable, the grain structure is uniform but does not "flow" with the shape of the design. Billet parts can see problems with fatigue cracking and are only as good as the person, machine and tooling that made them -- one common problem with billet parts is that the raw stock may not have had its grain structure aligned so as to compliment the finished part.

Extrusion - Extruded parts offer great finish shape and are often very stable. The amount of finish machine work can very greatly, based on the shape of the orignal extrusion... some are nearly finished on extrusion and others are little more than a "billet" that more closely matches the shape of the finished product -- extruded parts generally have proper grain direction and form.

That is a real quick and simple look at things... we could get all off in the weeds with the different aspects of cogging, blooms, scalping, sheeting, blah, blah, blah... I just wanted to try to clear up things a little.

Some terms get lost in the frey at times... I am sure that some of you remember buying "Mag" wheel for your van in the 70s (the love machine?), but they were actaully aluminum, not magnesium and we all knew that -- just a case of term having been used incorrectly for so long that we all just accepted it for what it was -- marketing hype.

Nitrox
07-29-06, 13:05
KLD,

Would you care to speak to the different types of casting? There seams to be a great deal of confusion regarding that subject as well.

Another great post by the way.

CapnCrunch
07-29-06, 13:18
Great post, and hopefully it will help end-users discern myth from fact.

Funny thing, while testing receiver extensions there was one in particular that stood out above the others. The humorous part? It was extruded, and the others were forged.

The only downside I can associate with extrusions would be that you seem pretty much limited to 60xx series aluminum, and not the 70xx series that is spec'ed on certain parts.

VLTOR
07-29-06, 16:19
The only downside I can associate with extrusions would be that you seem pretty much limited to 60xx series aluminum, and not the 70xx series that is spec'ed on certain parts.

K.L.-

Great write-up! You answered a lot of questions for those needing guidance.

Capt.-

One can extrude 7000-series aluminum; it's harder to work with. For example, 6000-series lends itself to detailed contours with the ability to form various bore sizes. To extrude bores with 7000-series aluminum, the bores must be large, very large. We came across this issue when we wanted to extrude the M32/MGL-140 cylinder. A 40-plus millimeter bore wasn't larger enough. So we had to extrude 10-inch round stock and bore all six chambers.

The main problem with extruding bores is the 7000-series material is so abrasive that it rapidly wears the extrusion die. Extruding companies prefer a simple and smooth die surface, which will extend the die’s cycle life.

Another down side to 7000-series alloy is the inability to weld. Yes, one could weld 7075-T6, but the material around the weld will be too brittle. Most 6000-series alloys are weldable and can be re-hardened back to a T6 tensile strength.

Eric

LOKNLOD
07-29-06, 19:48
For a brief second, this thread makes me miss my Mechanical Metallurgy and Manufacturing Processes classes. Thankfully, that feeling passes quickly ;)

It also makes me wonder if the firearms industry needs more Mech. E's and where to send my resumé...

Yojimbo
07-29-06, 19:50
Another highly informative post! Tack this one already....;)

Nathan_Bell
08-13-06, 10:45
One step that was always critical when I worked at a fab shop was the stress relieve / heat treat.

We would fab the initial weldment.
Send accross to HT for stress relief of the welds.
Then would do the machining work.
Send to HT for Stress Relief
and finally check dimensions and do finaly maching work if anything had shifted around.

Of cource this was all for making 6 and 7 figures expensive tube mills and tube straighteners. I would like to know how much , if any of this goes on in the manufacture of an AR?

Hardgear, LLC
08-16-06, 19:44
Do forgings and extrusions suffer from secondary shear forces which could lead to surface cracks and stress risers?

Bomber

K.L. Davis
08-16-06, 20:07
Do forgings and extrusions suffer from secondary shear forces which could lead to surface cracks and stress risers?

Bomber

I don't see why they wouldn't... but then there is a lot I don't know.

AFAIK, secondary and tertiary shear zones are more a matter of the geometry of the cut? Perhaps someone else can jump in one this...

K.L. Davis
08-16-06, 20:11
One step that was always critical when I worked at a fab shop was the stress relieve / heat treat.

We would fab the initial weldment.
Send accross to HT for stress relief of the welds.
Then would do the machining work.
Send to HT for Stress Relief
and finally check dimensions and do finaly maching work if anything had shifted around.

Of cource this was all for making 6 and 7 figures expensive tube mills and tube straighteners. I would like to know how much , if any of this goes on in the manufacture of an AR?

sorry, I did not see your post earlier.

The answer you are looking for is probably within the operations of individual shops... some of what you mention does go on, depending of course on what the part is and who is doing the work.

I know that is a cop out answer, but not a lot of shops seek the level of precision that a few do, nor do they make the parts that require that much work...

Hardgear, LLC
08-16-06, 20:45
I don't see why they wouldn't... but then there is a lot I don't know.

AFAIK, secondary and tertiary shear zones are more a matter of the geometry of the cut? Perhaps someone else can jump in one this...


There are some studies out there which address secondary shear zones during machining.

My question was with respect to the secondary shear forces that arise during the plastic deformation that is the objective of extrusion and forging. I thought these shear forces can manifest themselves as surface stress/cracks.

I was wondering how they are mitigated during these forming processes.

Great post btw.

Bomber

K.L. Davis
08-16-06, 20:51
There are some studies out there which address secondary shear zones during machining.

My question was with respect to the secondary shear forces that arise during the plastic deformation that is the objective of extrusion and forging. I thought these shear forces can manifest themselves as surface stress/cracks.

I was wondering how they are mitigated during these forming processes.

Great post btw.

Bomber

Okay, I smell what you are stepping in now :D

Secondary shear as a result of the actual forming process... it certainly seems this would be a concern, but I honestly do not know, hell I am just a grunt :(

I do know someone that will know though, and if he is not along in a moment, I will call him later...

]thanks

Bill Alexander
08-16-06, 21:34
Any metal part that is formed by plastic deformation will hold residual stress, unless it is either correctly treated or left for a very substantial time period. In analysing the residual stress in a part, or the stress from a force input it is usual to resolve the stress or strain in principle directions, these are then accompanied by three principle shear stress's or strains. This is basically the foundation for finite element analysis.

Stress risers in the normal sense are actual geometric features in a part that concentrate the stress in the material at a particular point. A very simple example would be a steel bar in tension with a thin section machined at the centre, this is a stress raiser. A more extreme example would be the same bar with crack half way through it.

Cracking in extrusions or forgings can be related to a huge number of reasons but working a material at a temperature that is inconsistent with it's ductile transition is possible the one that you are refering to. Ductile transition temperatures are very strange and although defined do actually have "grey" ranges.

Billet upper recievers are primarily created to produce a stiffer platform base for target/long range guns where the flex in the normal reciever is detremental. As the modulus of the part is practically identical in 6xxx alloy or 7xxx alloy the selection of the alloy becomes driven by the load input and output surfaces, in effect those stress concentrations and stress risers. A typical 7xxx alloy of the type used in recievers will have a yield 30% or more greater than the 6xxx alloy, hence a well made billet machining has the potential to outperform the extrusion part.

Negative side is that the primary axis should lie along the part, the secondary should lie top to bottom and the trans axis is from side to side, and unless someone is paying attention this is not always the case. Parts must be bead blasted prior to anodize.

Bill Alexander

Hardgear, LLC
08-16-06, 21:49
Bill,

Very informative answer. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I agree that when talking of stress risers one is most likely talking about cracks or particular geometric features like sharp angles that concentrate stress.

In my question I was wondering if anything was done to eliminate/mitigate crack formation during the actual metal forming process. My understanding of treating is it is to relieve stress and prevent cracks from occuring in the future.

Would occlusions (sp) or other material anomalies (eg Al oxide) be considered stress risers?


Bomber

Bill Alexander
08-16-06, 22:27
Inclusion defects especially if they lie near or at the surface will act as stress risers, and Al oxide driven into the part surface is an inclusion. One should also consider tooling marks and the dings from bad handling.

Typically the forging temperature is controlled to help prevent cracking in the part. Run too cold, you get cracking and cold working issues. run too hot and the grain structure will not form correctly for the optimum part strength.

I think however in the instance of the aluminium used for upper and lower parts that the ductility of the item, its proof stress and the loads imposed on it do not raise such issues as a common problem. I would be more concerned about the dimensions the part is cut to and the sharp edges/corners left by the machining. If the metalurgy is going to cause a problem you really do have a very bad part or it needs a total redesign.

Bill Alexander

olds442tyguy
08-22-06, 16:09
Excellent topic. :cool:

So when do we see the metal injection molded vs. gravity casted debate? :D