View Full Version : Why 14.5 ?
What advantage is a 14.5" barrel if you have to put/weld a 1.5" flash hider /compensator just to make it legal? My noob brain says that if I have to have 16" anyway, I would rather have an extra 1.5" of rifled barrel to make it legal. I can then pick and choose which muzzle device I want through trial and error. Am I missing some other aspect / advantage to the 14.5 that is obvious to others?
Thanks in advance for any light you can shine on the subject for me.
Vince
Weight off the very end of the gun. Also if you're not picking and choosing a muzzle device and know already exactly what you want then you just shaved 1.5" (give or take) off the overall length without having to deal with a stamp.
ETA: I should have prefaced this statement with the fact that I currently do not own a 14.5 with a pinned FH. However, I do intend for it to be my next purchase and these were a couple of my reasons. I'm experimenting now with my 16" gun and several FHs so that when I do order it can be pinned with the device of my choice and then no need for the "trial and error" as you say
some guys have a need/use for the 1.3"ish off the overall length. if you don't, then you should get a 16.
a 14.5 with extended flash hider comes to 16.1. a 16.1 barrel with a regular flash hider comes to about 17.5.
by contrast, my SBRd 14.5 with non-extended flash hider comes to like 15.9... so you're only adding about 1/8" to your 14.5" barrel by putting an "extended" flash hider on it.
It is at least 1.6 inches shorter and makes it a little more maneuverable it closed places. Every little bit helps and it is legal without more paperwork.
I have wondered this for a while now. I think Icculus has the right idea of pick the muzzle device you want with a 16" barrel and then, when and if you want the 14.5" barrel, you already know which way you want to go. IMHO, I'd rather swing a full 16" barrel so I can swap/replace/remove parts without having to worry about the permanantly attached muzzle device. But that's just me.
Eurodriver
08-26-10, 17:41
16" barrels with carbine length gas systems generous alot of pressure that is detrimental to the life of the gas system/buffer/bolt carrier. Thats one reason, and the reason I chopped my 16" to 14.5.
14.5" Mid length barrels are a soft shooting setup, and some want the shortest barrel possible without going NFA (I.E. Hawaii. It doesn't allow NFA)
arizonaranchman
08-26-10, 17:42
I like the A2 flash hider and have no intention of changing it. I want it as short as possible and yet not have to mess with NFA stuff. A 16" gun with FH is over 17" long - i want that trimmed down and don't want that length.
14.5" also allows you to use a standard bayonet if that is your flavor.
my next AR will be a LWRCi M6A3 14.5" with the FH of my choosing. I don't know what the weight difference will be, but I feel as a home defense/CQB carbine, it might be handy for it to be a little bit shorter.
Okay...so
As far as the benefit of the shorter barrel for CQB. Is the 1" difference really that significant?
Vince
Okay...so
As far as the benefit of the shorter barrel for CQB. Is the 1" difference really that significant?
Vince
the difference between a 17.5" (16) and a 16.1 (14.5) is the difference between being able to turn around in a standard residential hallway with the weapon at high-ready and not, for me. it's also the difference between being able to pull the weapon out of my vehicle muzzle up, and having to cant it. it's also the difference between being able to fit in my range box and not.
might very well be none of this applies to you- if not, again, buy a 16 incher.
why does it seem like you're wanting us to convince you of something? assess YOUR needs, not ours.
Isn't the really answer...because the "real" M4 issued by the US military has a 14.5" barrel. I'm an AR newb, but I'm pretty sure its the cool factor.
Isn't the really answer...because the "real" M4 issued by the US military has a 14.5" barrel. I'm an AR newb, but I'm pretty sure its the cool factor.
:rolleyes:
i think most of us are long past that, dude. if we wanted our crap to be "issue," we wouldn't have different/upgraded stocks, different/better handguards, different/better mounts, different/better lights, different/better rail guards, different/improved pistol grips, etc, etc, etc.... but still keep the barrel length? doesn't quite add up.
I found that indoors, there is a difference between 14.5" and 16".
Accordingly, my go-to AR at work is a 14.5".
Would rather have a 10.5", but that's not a possibility for me.
I thought that a 14.5" with a pinned FH was stupid until one of my friends got one. At the time all I had was a 16.5" AR and when I got to handle the 14" gun, said wow that really doe make a difference. Very slight, but noticeable. Now I have a 10.5" AR... That is very noticeable.
Isn't the really answer...because the "real" M4 issued by the US military has a 14.5" barrel. I'm an AR newb, but I'm pretty sure its the cool factor.
I bet it is for quite a few...:rolleyes:
Jeremy
Isn't the really answer...because the "real" M4 issued by the US military has a 14.5" barrel. I'm an AR newb, but I'm pretty sure its the cool factor.
For some that may be the case, but not here.
It is the shortest length non-NFA carbine alot of folks can legally own. As was said above "Every little bit helps". And it is noticeable when navigating tight doorways and when moving in & around a vehicle, etc.
I'm going to a 14.5" pencil barrel for my "house gun".I prefer the 16" for my "all purpose AR".Mostly for the extra 30-35 yards of fragmentation with the 75gr TAP.
Magic_Salad0892
08-27-10, 04:40
I'm looking for every excuse to go 14.5''.
Right now I'm digging 11.5''.
Certainly there are some collector-types that buy 14.5" barrels simply to have replica guns. You're not going to find many of those types here.
If you're new to the AR world, the 14.5" with pinned muzzle device is not the right gun for you. Buy a 16" with mid-length gas system and go shoot the shit out of it to assess your own needs and wants. Then if you find something lacking in the 16" you can investigate adding a 14.5"/pinned to your arsenal. I wouldn't do 14.5"/pinned as my first AR, and I wouldn't do it as my only AR (nor would I do an SBR for my first/only). 16" mid-length, lightweight barrel with flattop upper is the way to go for first/only.
I will say that I was totally against the 16" mid-length guns until I bought one, and totally against the 14.5" mid-length & pinned guns until Bravo sent me one. I was wrong on both counts.
Certainly there are some collector-types that buy 14.5" barrels simply to have replica guns. You're not going to find many of those types here.
If you're new to the AR world, the 14.5" with pinned muzzle device is not the right gun for you. Buy a 16" with mid-length gas system and go shoot the shit out of it to assess your own needs and wants. Then if you find something lacking in the 16" you can investigate adding a 14.5"/pinned to your arsenal. I wouldn't do 14.5"/pinned as my first AR, and I wouldn't do it as my only AR (nor would I do an SBR for my first/only). 16" mid-length, lightweight barrel with flattop upper is the way to go for first/only.
I will say that I was totally against the 16" mid-length guns until I bought one, and totally against the 14.5" mid-length & pinned guns until Bravo sent me one. I was wrong on both counts.
Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning for thinking someone who's new to the AR world should go with a 16" middie as opposed to a 14.5" middie?
What advantage is a 14.5" barrel if you have to put/weld a 1.5" flash hider /compensator just to make it legal? My noob brain says that if I have to have 16" anyway, I would rather have an extra 1.5" of rifled barrel to make it legal. I can then pick and choose which muzzle device I want through trial and error. Am I missing some other aspect / advantage to the 14.5 that is obvious to others?
Thanks in advance for any light you can shine on the subject for me.
Vince
My favorite rig is my 11.5" as it does everything I need a carbine to do best. If it were not for NFA, all my rigs would be 7.5"-12.5" as they do everything I need. However, I only have one NFA lower, so a pinned 14.5" gets me closer to ideal without the stamp for my non-NFA configurations. It's solely mission/individual specific... we all have our own priorities/needs/preferences. As a matter of fact, I'm headed to my favorite black rifle shop today to pick up a 14.5" upper that I want to run in a Nov carbine course in a more rural setting. Which is unusual for my purposes.
It's my opinion that the advantages of the pinned 14.5 over a 16 is reduced weight out on the end of the barrel, and more importantly for ME, reduced over all length.
I agree that one SHOULD go 16 first to figure out for themselves what gear THEY prefer to run without being "locked in" to a particular device that may not be optimal for their needs.
The 16" barrel does not have the word permanent attached to it (no pun intended ) and the 14.5" does. If you are new to the AR then you don't want anything permanently attached until you decide through alot of trigger time what you want. I am kinda in the same boat. I have a 16" barrel with a PWS brake on it and I would love to get it cut and pinned down to 14.5". But not until I buy a battle comp. Then I'll pick and choose b/t the two. Long story short the longer barrel gives you more options (and lord knows the AR has options) and until you decide what fits you best then I also say 16" for now. Unless you get your stamp.
Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning for thinking someone who's new to the AR world should go with a 16" middie as opposed to a 14.5" middie?
Out of curiosity, what's your reasoning for thinking someone who's new to the AR world should go with a 16" middie as opposed to a 14.5" middie?
The pinning aspect of the 14.5" mid-length is limiting. Can it be remove? Of course. Is it easy or a home job? No. and it needs to be re-pinned once you get it off.
I am a HUGE advocate of people buying a gun and going and shooting it first to establish what they want/need to change, but I also believe that they should make it as easy as possible to change when they want to, and the 14.5" pinned guns don't allow that.
Canonshooter
08-27-10, 09:28
In my case, I want as compact as possible without the stamp. I don't do any shooting beyond 200 yards at the IDPA club I belong to and in any conceiveable SHTF scenario, I'll be in 100% defensive mode. So, the extra barrel length/bullet velocity isn't as important to me to keeping the rifle as light/compact as possible.
I decided on pinning on the PWS FSC556 as I want the rifle to be as controllable in rapid fire stages as possible.
http://www.canonshooter.com/photos2/ar-1.jpg
In my case, I want as compact as possible without the stamp. I don't do any shooting beyond 200 yards at the IDPA club I belong to and in any conceiveable SHTF scenario, I'll be in 100% defensive mode. So, the extra barrel length/bullet velocity isn't as important to me to keeping the rifle as light/compact as possible.
I decided on pinning on the PWS FSC556 as I want the rifle to be as controllable in rapid fire stages as possible.
I think this post best illustrates what bkb0000 and rob_s was getting at and the main point the OP should latch on to. You need to asses your personal needs (not anybody else's) and then go from there. :) If that means getting a 16" gun first so you can experiment with different flash hiders then go that route. Once you've got it and been able to put some rounds down range you'll have a better idea of where you want to go
the difference between a 17.5" (16) and a 16.1 (14.5) is the difference between being able to turn around in a standard residential hallway with the weapon at high-ready and not, for me. it's also the difference between being able to pull the weapon out of my vehicle muzzle up, and having to cant it. it's also the difference between being able to fit in my range box and not.
might very well be none of this applies to you- if not, again, buy a 16 incher.
why does it seem like you're wanting us to convince you of something? assess YOUR needs, not ours.
I'm not asking to be convinced of anything. I asses my needs and make informed decisions. But I need to be informed, to make an informed decision. So I ask questions and I then question the answers so I can get to the information I think I need. Please don't take it personally... I'm a skeptic when it comes to information I get on the internet. On internet forums, on matters of opinion, I tend to look for a consensus of opinion. Call me crazy, but it works for me.
I now have a better understanding of the reasoning behind the choice for some and the need for others. I had not thought about the "duty weapon" aspect. I would think that having to tilt a weapon and "sweeping" your own head just to get it out of the car would not be pleasant for a LEO
I also had not considered turning around in a hallway. I just tried it with my AR. And with the butt stock fully collapsed I was barely able to turn around with the weapon shouldered and ready. If there was door jam molding across from me I smacked it with the muzzle.
Thanks to ALL who have responded. I appreciate your input. I feel I now have a better understanding into why some choose the shorter barrel. More info for my next build. My son might get my 16" gun for graduation. Maybe not......
Thanks again.
Vince
Try typing "14.5 worth it" into the orange M4C search function. Oodles of goodness there.
I am having my 16.1 inch barrel actually cut to 14.3 And having my fh permanently attached. after about 1500 rounds I've decided that a bit short and lighter will be better. the gunsmith and I were discussing how a 14.5 with a midlength gas system is one of the smoothest running systems ever designed. when it get back to me I'll take it out and write a review.
I see some people saying they are going to get a barrel cut and then pin a flash hider. What does that cost? Isn't that pretty close to what a stamp cost? I understand the guys who can't do the SBR, but why don't some of you not want to do the NFA stuff?
Jeremy
Canonshooter
08-27-10, 11:33
I see some people saying they are going to get a barrel cut and then pin a flash hider. What does that cost? Isn't that pretty close to what a stamp cost? I understand the guys who can't do the SBR, but why don't some of you not want to do the NFA stuff?
Jeremy
It's just something about registering firearms with the government that does not sit well with me. Went through that in NY with my pistol permit. IMO, as a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen it's none of their business...
I see some people saying they are going to get a barrel cut and then pin a flash hider. What does that cost? Isn't that pretty close to what a stamp cost? I understand the guys who can't do the SBR, but why don't some of you not want to do the NFA stuff?
Jeremy
ADCO charges $30 to pin/weld. Far cry from $200 stamp, 4 months wait, and $50 engraving.
YMMV
the state that I live in doesn't allow sbrs or I would do that. to have my barrel cut, threaded, and the fh pinned was just about $100 through rainier arms.
Personally, I am hard of hearing, and the 14.5" makes it easier to hear the gun go off. :dance3::dance3::dance3:
Just kidding.
Unless you need more maneuverability than a 16 + FH, just get the 16.
ADCO charges $30 to pin/weld. Far cry from $200 stamp, 4 months wait, and $50 engraving.
YMMV
I really did not know the price. So about $120 with shipping. BTW, my engraving cost $10.00.
Jeremy
How did we go from $30 to $120 shipped?
Where did you have an AR lower engraved & refinished for $10?
Certainly there are some collector-types that buy 14.5" barrels simply to have replica guns. You're not going to find many of those types here.
I will say that I was totally against the 16" mid-length guns until I bought one, and totally against the 14.5" mid-length & pinned guns until Bravo sent me one. I was wrong on both counts.
you was wrong !? :haha:
gotta admit, on that one. the middy gas 16'' is my favorite now,
but still wont give up my service rifle,
peabody
Canonshooter
08-27-10, 12:37
Just a long-winded follow up to my previous post on my experiences in registering firearms with the government as a citizen…
Up until a few years ago I lived on Long Island in NY. When I became interested in pistols over 30 years ago, we were required to get a Suffolk County pistol permit. In NY, the licensing schemes are set by the county, not by the state. As I would learn over the years, Suffolk County was one of the worst to deal with (though not as bad as NYC).
To get a “concealed carry” permit required all of the usual character references, background checks, finger printing, interviews with the neighbors, etc. After the interview process (which could take up to 60 days), it took 9 months for the SCPD to “process” the application.
So nine months later I get my carry permit. In Suffolk County, you are only allowed to carry for reasons endorsed by SCPD and listed on the permit. In my case, it was for “target shooting” and “hunting.” This meant that the only time I was legally allowed to carry was when (1) I was on my way directly to or from a range or (2) when in the field during recognized hunting seasons. To carry at any other time for any other reason was a misdemeanor.
To actually purchase a handgun was quite an involved process as well. First, you would have to go to a gun store and buy the pistol, but you were not allowed to take possession of it yet. You would then take the receipt back to SCPD and they would issue a purchase permit that was good for 10 days. This permit would include the make, model and serial number of the firearm being purchased. Then you would return to the gun shop and take possession of the firearm and have 10 days to get back to the SCPD to finish the process and have the pistol listed on your permit.
A few years later, my wife decided to get a permit as well. During this time I had become friends with one of the officers who worked in the pistol permit department. Joe was a really good guy and being in the plumbing biz at the time, I had done some work at his house. So when we processed the application for my wife, the whole thing was done in 3 weeks. It turns out that what SCPD does is process everything (takes about 3 weeks) and then jerks you around for another 8 months to see if you lose interest.
With my wife and I buying pistols, we made many trips back and forth to the SCPD pistol permit. At the time there was one officer working there who was a total prick. It was not unusual to be waiting on line listening to this guy lecturing people on how gun ownership is a privilege, not a right. Whenever I had to deal with him, I just kept my mouth shut and nodded in agreement.
What was also a pleasure at the time was their bulletin board they had by the counter. The New York Newsday newspaper is perhaps one of the most anti-gun publications in the U.S. and always ran political cartoons in their op-ed section denigrating gun owners and the 2A. Of course, the bulletin board had a collection of their favorite Newsday anti-gun cartoons pinned to it.
In the first 15 years or so of having the SCPD permit, if I wanted to leave a pistol on consignment at a gun shop, I would simply leave the gun there and they would log it into their books. I would be given a receipt stating that they have the pistol. This worked fine and I sold handguns I no longer wanted this way, as it was a nice and clean method of leaving a 100% legal paper trail. But of course, Suffolk County wanting to make gun ownership as much of a hassle as possible changed the rule after all those years. The new rule was that if a pistol was to be left at a gun shop, it had to be taken off the license. So, the pistol would be logged in at a FFL, I would take the receipt back to SCPD and have it removed from my license. If I decided I didn’t want to sell the pistol or couldn’t get what I wanted for it, I now had to go through the entire purchase permit process again just to get my gun back! As it turned out, this would bite me in the ass big time…
Some time after their new rule took effect, I decided to sell a High Standard target pistol that I had owned for over 12 years. I was very active in a Bullseye league, but was slowly moving on to other shooting sports so I decided to leave the pistol on consignment at a local gun shop. When I left it, they kindly reminded me to take it off my pistol permit, which I promptly did. A few months went by and they had not yet sold my pistol. The bullseye league I was a member of was having a big event so decided I would participate in it. I went back to get my pistol, only to be reminded that I needed a purchase permit to get it back. So I got the permit, went back to pick up the pistol and went home. This was late in the day on a Saturday and the event took place on Sunday.
As always, the pistol was kept locked in my safe - the same pistol I had owned for over 12 years and I had become very accustomed to seeing it in my safe every time I opened it. A few weeks went by and I get a call from the SCPD that I have “an open purchase permit.” At first I’m trying to figure out WTF they were talking about and then it hit me…I had forgotten the last step of the “pistol purchase process” and never took the gun back to SCPD to get it put back on my permit!
Luckily, my detective friend Joe was still working the pistol permit bureau (he would retire a few months later) and he (and he alone) saved my butt. If I had gotten the prick to handle it, I would have had my license suspended and been charged with a misdemeanor for unlawful possession of a firearm.
It’s nice to now reside in the Live Free or Die state where such draconian gun laws do not exist (at least not yet). I have often though how great it would be own a SBR, but after my experience in NY I have lost all interest in any gun licensing/registration scheme. A pinned comp/flash hider on a 14.5 inch barrel to keep it NFA-compliant/registration-free is just fine with me.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4135/4932710166_dc08959962_b.jpg
How did we go from $30 to $120 shipped?
Where did you have an AR lower engraved & refinished for $10?
I was using the $100 quote from the guy who had his cut and pinned. I was asking about both, not just pinning. A local guy here engraved my lower for $10 and I had Aluma Black on hand.
Jeremy
arizonaranchman
08-27-10, 13:03
Just a long-winded follow up to my previous post on my experiences in registering firearms with the government as a citizen…
Up until a few years ago I lived on Long Island in NY. When I became interested in pistols over 30 years ago, we were required to get a Suffolk County pistol permit. In NY, the licensing schemes are set by the county, not by the state. As I would learn over the years, Suffolk County was one of the worst to deal with (though not as bad as NYC).
To get a “concealed carry” permit required all of the usual character references, background checks, finger printing, interviews with the neighbors, etc. After the interview process (which could take up to 60 days), it took 9 months for the SCPD to “process” the application.
So nine months later I get my carry permit. In Suffolk County, you are only allowed to carry for reasons endorsed by SCPD and listed on the permit. In my case, it was for “target shooting” and “hunting.” This meant that the only time I was legally allowed to carry was when (1) I was on my way directly to or from a range or (2) when in the field during recognized hunting seasons. To carry at any other time for any other reason was a misdemeanor.
To actually purchase a handgun was quite an involved process as well. First, you would have to go to a gun store and buy the pistol, but you were not allowed to take possession of it yet. You would then take the receipt back to SCPD and they would issue a purchase permit that was good for 10 days. This permit would include the make, model and serial number of the firearm being purchased. Then you would return to the gun shop and take possession of the firearm and have 10 days to get back to the SCPD to finish the process and have the pistol listed on your permit.
A few years later, my wife decided to get a permit as well. During this time I had become friends with one of the officers who worked in the pistol permit department. Joe was a really good guy and being in the plumbing biz at the time, I had done some work at his house. So when we processed the application for my wife, the whole thing was done in 3 weeks. It turns out that what SCPD does is process everything (takes about 3 weeks) and then jerks you around for another 8 months to see if you lose interest.
With my wife and I buying pistols, we made many trips back and forth to the SCPD pistol permit. At the time there was one officer working there who was a total prick. It was not unusual to be waiting on line listening to this guy lecturing people on how gun ownership is a privilege, not a right. Whenever I had to deal with him, I just kept my mouth shut and nodded in agreement.
What was also a pleasure at the time was their bulletin board they had by the counter. The New York Newsday newspaper is perhaps one of the most anti-gun publications in the U.S. and always ran political cartoons in their op-ed section denigrating gun owners and the 2A. Of course, the bulletin board had a collection of their favorite Newsday anti-gun cartoons pinned to it.
In the first 15 years or so of having the SCPD permit, if I wanted to leave a pistol on consignment at a gun shop, I would simply leave the gun there and they would log it into their books. I would be given a receipt stating that they have the pistol. This worked fine and I sold handguns I no longer wanted this way, as it was a nice and clean method of leaving a 100% legal paper trail. But of course, Suffolk County wanting to make gun ownership as much of a hassle as possible changed the rule after all those years. The new rule was that if a pistol was to be left at a gun shop, it had to be taken off the license. So, the pistol would be logged in at a FFL, I would take the receipt back to SCPD and have it removed from my license. If I decided I didn’t want to sell the pistol or couldn’t get what I wanted for it, I now had to go through the entire purchase permit process again just to get my gun back! As it turned out, this would bite me in the ass big time…
Some time after their new rule took effect, I decided to sell a High Standard target pistol that I had owned for over 12 years. I was very active in a Bullseye league, but was slowly moving on to other shooting sports so I decided to leave the pistol on consignment at a local gun shop. When I left it, they kindly reminded me to take it off my pistol permit, which I promptly did. A few months went by and they had not yet sold my pistol. The bullseye league I was a member of was having a big event so decided I would participate in it. I went back to get my pistol, only to be reminded that I needed a purchase permit to get it back. So I got the permit, went back to pick up the pistol and went home. This was late in the day on a Saturday and the event took place on Sunday.
As always, the pistol was kept locked in my safe - the same pistol I had owned for over 12 years and I had become very accustomed to seeing it in my safe every time I opened it. A few weeks went by and I get a call from the SCPD that I have “an open purchase permit.” At first I’m trying to figure out WTF they were talking about and then it hit me…I had forgotten the last step of the “pistol purchase process” and never took the gun back to SCPD to get it put back on my permit!
Luckily, my detective friend Joe was still working the pistol permit bureau (he would retire a few months later) and he (and he alone) saved my butt. If I had gotten the prick to handle it, I would have had my license suspended and been charged with a misdemeanor for unlawful possession of a firearm.
It’s nice to now reside in the Live Free or Die state where such draconian gun laws do not exist (at least not yet). I have often though how great it would be own a SBR, but after my experience in NY I have lost all interest in any gun licensing/registration scheme. A pinned comp/flash hider on a 14.5 inch barrel to keep it NFA-compliant/registration-free is just fine with me.
And people make fun of California... Compared to this Calif is RIGHT WING.
I'd never in a million years live in a place that had these types of laws. Personally I can't understand who would or could allow themselves to be "subject" to such outrages.
Canonshooter
08-27-10, 13:13
And people make fun of California... Compared to this Calif is RIGHT WING.
I'd never in a million years live in a place that had these types of laws. Personally I can't understand who would or could allow themselves to be "subject" to such outrages.
And NY State has an AWB on top of it.
Interestingly, in other "upstate" NY counties getting a pistol permit is simply going to the local PD and filling out a single form, and they issue a full, no restrictions carry permit within a few days.
I was using the $100 quote from the guy who had his cut and pinned. I was asking about both, not just pinning. A local guy here engraved my lower for $10 and I had Aluma Black on hand.
Jeremy
you're not comparing apples:apples then.
If the barrel is cut then it's cut either to 145", or 10.5", or 7.5". If it's bought then it's bought.
the only apples:apples cost is exactly as I posted it. $30 for pin/weld or $250 for tax stamp and engrave/refinish. Even if you go the walmart route it's still $210 for tax stamp and engrave.
and nothing accounts for the time waiting for the NFA. Bird in the hand, and all that.
I was just asking a simple question. I have seen a few guys say that they want to get their 16" barrel cut to 14.5 and then have a FH pinned and welded. There is one in this thread. I thought that would be more expensive. That rout seems like alot of work for someone to do over getting a stamp. I know buying a 14.5" barrel and haveing it pinned is a different story. Just simple conversation. I was only wondering why someone would want to go that rout.
Jeremy
but then they still have to pay the tax on top of the cut, pin, weld. I don't see any eventuality where SBRing the gun is remotely close to less expensive, or even on par with, simply pinning the device. I don't understand how it's even in the realm of comparison.
If there's a way to get an SBR cheaper than pinning & welding I want to know about it. Even WITH the time constraint I'd consider going through the bother of the SBR if it was actually cheaper.
:shout:... I quit... I understand you, but I don't think you are following me. It is not that important. I wish we had a smiley that was banging his head against a wall...
JK
It might be cool to have a 15" barrel so a welded standard muzzle device makes it 16"....
DD, BCM how bout a 15" middly LW? :)
Magic_Salad0892
08-27-10, 19:41
Why 14.5''?
For me. (already having an SBR'd lower, and another pending)
It would be the velocity gain. I wouldn't have to weld or anything though. (HA!)
Might cut my other SR-15 upper to 14.5''.
It might be cool to have a 15" barrel so a welded standard muzzle device makes it 16"....
DD, BCM how bout a 15" middly LW? :)
14.7 allows you to use a standard A2 compensator.. a lot of guys have 16s cut to 14.7, and i'm pretty sure there are a couple barrel manfers who offer 14.7s.
14.7 allows you to use a standard A2 compensator.. a lot of guys have 16s cut to 14.7, and i'm pretty sure there are a couple barrel manfers who offer 14.7s.
LWRCi's M6A3 is a 14.7"
I had my Colt 6920 cut to 14.7 and the A2 permed. This was a while back don't think I'd do it again. Now that I am on the NFA boat I shoot 10.5" N4 MSTN build and a 12.5" Crusader MSTN. I almost never pick up my cut down Colt nor my Noveske N4 14.5. If I was not able or willing to go the NFA route I'd use 14.5 mid length guns.
I had my Colt 6920 cut to 14.7 and the A2 permed. This was a while back don't think I'd do it again. Now that I am on the NFA boat I shoot 10.5" N4 MSTN build and a 12.5" Crusader MSTN. I almost never pick up my cut down Colt nor my Noveske N4 14.5. If I was not able or willing to go the NFA route I'd use 14.5 mid length guns.
once you go SBR, it's hard to want to shoot anything else. however, the permed 14.5s are a LOT easier to go back to for travel into hostile territories than 16" guns.. which is why i'm aboot to perm another 14.5
once you go SBR, it's hard to want to shoot anything else. however, the permed 14.5s are a LOT easier to go back to for travel into hostile territories than 16" guns.. which is why i'm aboot to perm another 14.5
For clarification, the pinned 14.5 v. 16 is "easier" because of
manipulation within a vehicle from the shortened OAL ?
For clarification, the pinned 14.5 v. 16 is "easier" because of
manipulation within a vehicle from the shortened OAL ?
I think he means because of possible travel into non-NFA states, and the paperwork involved in traveling with NFA items.
Much like I wouldn't own a 14.5" pinned if it was my only AR, I wouldn't own an SBR as my only AR either.
I think he means because of possible travel into non-NFA states, and the paperwork involved in traveling with NFA items.
yep..
after reading all this about the 14.5s for the last few weeks, i got on the bandwagon. i had an extra unfired BCM 16'' upper, and sent it to Adco for full-length fluting, cutting to 14.5, and pinning a blackout f/h. got it back today, installed a D.D. omega, BCM troy sights, BCM bcg and model 3 gunfighter. i will take this and my 20'' BCM out this week sometime, and compare side-by-side. i put this upper on a BCM lower with a sopmod stock, so it certainly is a nice looking rig.
decodeddiesel
08-29-10, 13:42
For me I absolutely prefer a 14.5". I suppose this comes from my Army time.
Anyway I have trained extensively in the Army with a 14.5" M4 for years, and have fired thousands and thousands of rounds out of them in training and in combat. Having carried an M4 on patrols, operated and in and around vehicles, and fought with the weapon numerous times, I guess I am just used to the 14.5" barrel format. I have found that a 16" + FH just seems odd, and feels too "long" to me. I guess if I had "grown up" with something like an SR-15 or a 16" middy I guess the extra 1.5" or so wouldn't be a big deal to me. YMMV
I would much rather have a 16 inch mid-length than a 14.5 inch with a pinned on muzzle device. It is too hard to service.
If I wanted a 14.5, then I would SBR it. But if I had an SBR (well I do), I would pick something in the 10-12.5 inch range and skip 14.5 and go right to 16.
Why not a 14.5" mid length with a perm. attached muzzle device?
BCM offers 14.5" middy with 3 muzzle devices to choose from.
decodeddiesel
08-29-10, 17:40
Why not a 14.5" mid length with a perm. attached muzzle device?
BCM offers 14.5" middy with 3 muzzle devices to choose from.
No offense, but I think u maybe be missing the point of the thread. Many people think that the 1.5" or so saved of barrel length is not worth having a perm attached muzzle device.
You are right though, the BCM 14.5" Middys are all the rage right now. I am hoping to pick one up in the next month or so myself.
I think he means because of possible travel into non-NFA states, and the paperwork involved in traveling with NFA items.
yep..
I follow in regards to the NFA states v. non-NFA states.
Just a thought regarding legalities, having owned a pinned 14.5 carbine and having taken on a couple trips. I took some documentation along, specifically the pin & weld job receipt & paperwork regarding the ATF stance on perm FH's.
I was concerned regarding incountering local law enforcement who were unaware of the application on NFA laws. I never had an issue, nor am I aware of anyone else that had. I guess my general thought was what is common knowledge on internet forums may not be to local officials. It may not be neccessary, I saw it as cheap insurance.
Nope, not missing the point.
If one wants the flexibility of removing the muzzle device but cannot do NFA, then 16.1" is the way to go.
I prefer the shorter OAL of a 14.5", and don't mind a perm attached muzzle device.
YMMV
Eurodriver
08-29-10, 20:32
I have been messing with ARs for years, and have 4 of them. I have absolutely no need to change out muzzle devices or handguards so perming them is fine with me.
Maybe because instead of getting a new comp or upgrading the handguards, I'd just buy a new upper :)
got my upper back from being cut and pinned. the difference is quite noticeable. I'll put it together tonight and try and get photos to post. needless to say I am pleased.
here it is all put together 14.5 barrel with 13.8 Troy rail.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/4950667318_16e0bd0d27.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4950667318/)
ar rig (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4950667318/)
here it is all put together 14.5 barrel with 13.8 Troy rail.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/4950667318_16e0bd0d27.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4950667318/)
ar rig (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4950667318/)
That looks good.
Nice rig vader, got any more pics? Clearer closer?
Okay...so
As far as the benefit of the shorter barrel for CQB. Is the 1" difference really that significant?
Vince
one of the benefits not really given much discussion is weight. an inch and a half of 3/4" steel with a .22 caliber hole through it has some weight. even though it may not be a lot, it matters a whole lot more where that weight is located.
people spend hours discussing the merits of rail systems that save just an ounce or two over the length of the entire fore end. an inch and a half of barrel steel is located at exactly the end of your barrel and affects balance and handling more than the same or greater weight in any other location.
I'll get closer shots today. my camera is Mia so I am work with the iPhone camera.
here are close up photos of the end of the rail, barrel and pinned fh.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4076/4951847125_5cf86b4ac5.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4951847125/)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4105/4952437280_5a97c69c8f.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4952437280/)
just in the 1/2 hour of dryfire and mag change drills I did at the house last night when I finished putting to together I can tell a huge difference. single hand manipulation is significantly easier now along with just general wear on my ms2 sling. I feel now the rifle is much more balanced. I am very glad I went this route and would recommend doing it if you are thinking about it.
don't care for the extra overall length the 16" barrel adds, and don't plan on removing parts so 14.5 for me. :D
14.5 is simply the optimal trade off of barrel length, velocity, and handling.
If there were NO brainless NFA restrictions, I'd pick 14.5.
So my 16" Bushmaster has a carbine length gas system right?
ghostman1960
09-04-10, 07:36
I will never free float this one nor will I ever change out the FSB for a gas block or something. I like my BCM middy 14.5. I think its the most perfect upper I have ever owned.
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz159/ghostman1961/DSCF0456.jpg
So my 16" Bushmaster has a carbine length gas system right?
Correct.
So is it also correct to say only a 14.5 inch barrel makes it an M4? Now that I think about it mine is an M4 'style' AR.
Thanks
So is it also correct to say only a 14.5 inch barrel makes it an M4? Now that I think about it mine is an M4 'style' AR.
Thanks
Nah... that's getting into AR15.comish silly semantics. I'd still consider a Colt 6920 with a 16" barrel an M4, generically speaking.
m1a_scoutguy
09-04-10, 18:52
I love my 14.5 Upper,,,its my main go to rifle for sure now !!! its handles great,,is very accurate and just plain FUN,,FUN,,,FUN !!!! I used all good stuff and it just shoots & functions perfect !!! I live in NY so I have to deal with the Pin/Weld bull,,but hey,,thats the way it is,,I don't like it,,but I except it !!! :mad: If I only had 1 AR,,I mite not go for it,,but with 3 to pick from,,,its not a big deal to me !! I have a buddy that is a Class A Machinist and Welder,,so getting it Pinned & Welded is about a 2mile drive for me and 20 min wait !!!! :D I need to really figure out if the Battle Comp is a Legal NY MB and I will have it switched out if it is,,,,time will tell I guess !!!! I understand for you guys in the Free States,,ya have more options,,I guess that the price of doing business in the Empire State !!!
Anyways,,with all that said,,I will probably build another 14.5 rifle around Tax time,,they are a great feeling and handling rifle,,well worth the trouble for me !!! I have showed it off before,,but am always willing to show it off again and brag about it anytime I can,,,,,:D:D I can get some pics of the weld and stuff tomorrow if anyone wants to see how mine is done,,let me know !! Here she is,,these are Old pics,,from when I first put it together and my 1st range trip ! I have a 3X Magnifier to go along with the Eotech that is mounted,,sweet setup !!! There is a Vid of me shooting it in the Competitive Shooting Section,,under Fun Shoot !!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/m1ascoutguy/012.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/m1ascoutguy/013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/m1ascoutguy/003-1.jpg
I have changed the grip out and fixed the front site for you eagle eyes,,,it was on backwards,,,Duh,,,my buddy straightened me out on that,,,LOL !!! Anyways,,,hope ya like it !!! Stop by and I'll let ya shoot it !!!! :)
arizonaranchman
09-05-10, 10:26
here it is all put together 14.5 barrel with 13.8 Troy rail.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4132/4950667318_16e0bd0d27.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4950667318/)
ar rig (http://www.flickr.com/photos/93596144@N00/4950667318/)
A nice KISS carbine you got there! A RDS, BUIS and a light - that's it!
A nice KISS carbine you got there! A RDS, BUIS and a light - that's it!
Lol, that is anything but KISS in my opinion.
thank you. don't need more then that, unless you're runnin NV which I don't have yet.
Another reason is the ACOG RCO M4 is set up for a 14.5 barrel. ;)
mkmckinley
09-07-10, 19:10
That's a good point that's often overlooked. A 14.5" barrel allows you to use established zeroing procedures.
I have a 14.5" with permed FH that I use for drills. The reason is that I want to practice with something that approximates my work gun.
motorwerks
09-07-10, 21:30
14.7 allows you to use a standard A2 compensator.. a lot of guys have 16s cut to 14.7, and i'm pretty sure there are a couple barrel manfers who offer 14.7s.
My bushmaster was really about 14.7 didnt catch that till I already had the Vortex screwed on.
The pinning aspect of the 14.5" mid-length is limiting. Can it be remove? Of course. Is it easy or a home job? No. and it needs to be re-pinned once you get it off.
Pinned hiders can easily be ether taken off or pinned at home with a few simple tools. To get mine off I used a vise a dremel and a file. To replace it I used a 1/8 inch drill bit, a drill press (that I had to borrow) a mig welder and a file. Thats it pretty simple, took me a couple days because I had to get to my friends house with the drill press.
And people make fun of California... Compared to this Calif is RIGHT WING.
I'd never in a million years live in a place that had these types of laws. Personally I can't understand who would or could allow themselves to be "subject" to such outrages.
Well unfortunately I was born here. I moved away but then came back home to where my friends/Family are. Now I'm stuck here at least for a while. My wife and I both hold Licenses and Certificates that are a bitch to redo in a different state. So 14.5 (really a 14.7)with a pinned hider it is for me....
I went with it because when I run and gun our longest distance is about 100 yards, and I like how it handles. Its what I need, funny part is my other looks EXACTLY like it but with FDE instead of Foliage but its a full 16, and the other 2 are both 20's
A 14.5 feels quite a bit lighter and more handy in my hands. I have only one, but it feels great.
I have coached quite a bit of baseball with my sons. And I can tell you that a bat that is one oz heavier or lighter makes a big difference. Bats are made in .5 oz increments. You give a kid a bat that is 1 oz heavier and 1 inch longer, he might not be able to hit with it. Even a bat that is of the same weight, but one inch longer is more difficult to swing. I can certainly feel the difference in the bat, and I can see his swing go to shit. I know we are not swinging AR's like bats, but the concept applies.
It makes a significant difference IMHO.
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