A training question about instructors

[Von Rheydt]

I am somewhat confused as to all these instructor courses being touted by various training organisations and would like some clarification if possible.

Firstly my own, official uniformed experience, is British Army. The training there runs along the lines of:

Level 1: Basic military training. This takes a civvy from zilch to basic trained soldier level. Infantry and/or paratrooper training is built onto this.

A level 1 squaddie is taught the safe use and application of firearms that he/she will directly come into contact with. This includes:
a. Normal safety precautions,
b. Load, unload & make safe,
c. The marksmanship princples,
d. Firing of the weapon[s].
All of these are actively tested and continuously observed requiring certain pass, skill or marksman levels.

Level 2: The initial military skills supervisory course which allows an individual to be responsible for and train a squad of men or recruits. This includes weapons training:

a. Level 1 is revised............so that you know it with yours eyes closed, in your sleep and backwards.
b. After the revision: Each weapon has a manual laid out in a functional chapter style. Each chapter is considered a lesson. The candidate must be able to deliver any lesson chosen by the directing staff at 40 minutes notice. The candidate must deliver one practice and two graded weapons lessons.

Level 3: The final military skills supervisory course. This theoretically allows the individual NCO promotion all the way to Sgt Maj and the associated responsibility. This level allows the supervision of personnel training recruits and soldiers and the management of a live range.

a. Level 1/Level 2 is revised...........painful.
b. After revision of the lessons and manuals you must again deliver practice lessons and two graded lessons. The marking is harder and more is expected.

The guys that assess and grade you on the above courses have attended the Army's Skill at Arms Course. This is effectively the weapon instructors, instructors course.

None of the levels/courses mentioned are 'course attended' courses they are courses that are graded pass/fail...........and people do fail.

Now we are not talking tactics or drills or combat application - that is something else. We are talking teaching people the make up of a weapon, safe handling, safe use and effective accurate shooting.

So, my question finally is, I was a level 3. Where does this fall with all these carbine instructor courses.

[C4IGrant]

I am somewhat confused as to all these instructor courses being touted by various training organisations and would like some clarification if possible.

Firstly my own, official uniformed experience, is British Army. The training there runs along the lines of:

Level 1: Basic military training. This takes a civvy from zilch to basic trained soldier level. Infantry and/or paratrooper training is built onto this.

A level 1 squaddie is taught the safe use and application of firearms that he/she will directly come into contact with. This includes:
a. Normal safety precautions,
b. Load, unload & make safe,
c. The marksmanship princples,
d. Firing of the weapon[s].
All of these are actively tested and continuously observed requiring certain pass, skill or marksman levels.

Level 2: The initial military skills supervisory course which allows an individual to be responsible for and train a squad of men or recruits. This includes weapons training:

a. Level 1 is revised............so that you know it with yours eyes closed, in your sleep and backwards.
b. After the revision: Each weapon has a manual laid out in a functional chapter style. Each chapter is considered a lesson. The candidate must be able to deliver any lesson chosen by the directing staff at 40 minutes notice. The candidate must deliver one practice and two graded weapons lessons.

Level 3: The final military skills supervisory course. This theoretically allows the individual NCO promotion all the way to Sgt Maj and the associated responsibility. This level allows the supervision of personnel training recruits and soldiers and the management of a live range.

a. Level 1/Level 2 is revised...........painful.
b. After revision of the lessons and manuals you must again deliver practice lessons and two graded lessons. The marking is harder and more is expected.

The guys that assess and grade you on the above courses have attended the Army's Skill at Arms Course. This is effectively the weapon instructors, instructors course.

None of the levels/courses mentioned are 'course attended' courses they are courses that are graded pass/fail...........and people do fail.

Now we are not talking tactics or drills or combat application - that is something else. We are talking teaching people the make up of a weapon, safe handling, safe use and effective accurate shooting.

So, my question finally is, I was a level 3. Where does this fall with all these carbine instructor courses.


I would say that you should pick an instructor with ex-mil experience (specifically in SF) and take their basic 3 day carbine package.

While you maybe bored, you might also learn somethings different or a new/better way to do something.


C4

[Hmac]

I highly recommend Jeff Gonzales (ex-Navy SEAL), Trident Concepts courses. 3-day, thousands of rounds, and you may have to do pushups if you miss a head shot.

[vaspence]

All good advice given. I 'd recommend EAG Tactical (Pat Rogers) as a first carbine course. Pat gives a thorough class on the carbine. You'll get a good foundation on the AR platform. If all of your training has been from the military (I am a former 11B, US Army Infantry), you may be surprised at what you just don't know. I was. Pat was the first carbine instructor I trained with and it was a good experience for a first timer. And a second timer, etc. Pat isn't ex SF (he's worse :D) but more than a few of us on here train with him repeatedly.

[Von Rheydt]

Cheers Gents.

The M4 is new to me so big, big, learning curve anyway. I want to start at the begining as the IA drills for M4 will differ from my previous learning...........then I've got to figure out holosights and acogs.

[wedgehead30]

You can't go wrong with one of the big names, Hackathorn, Vickers, Rogers, Gonzales, Smith etc. All excellent trainers with outstanding programs. You will get your moneys worth and then some.

Don't look past some of the lesser known schools or instructors in your area. In Ohio we have some great instruction at TDI.

As they say "A profit is never recognized in his own land". Sometimes that applies to the local talent who have a lot to offer but get overlooked.

Scott

[Hmac]

As they say "A profit is never recognized in his own land". Sometimes that applies to the local talent who have a lot to offer but get overlooked.

Scott

I think you meant "prophet". The way you wrote it would be more suggestive of the current administration's fiscal policy.

[wedgehead30]

I think you meant "prophet". The way you wrote it would be more suggestive of the current administration's fiscal policy.

Ha, ha correct you are my friend. On both accounts no less. :D

That's what I get for being ADD, working on next years budget, surfing and.............hey look at that squirrel...............


Scott
:D

[rushca01]

I have trained with Pat and Co (EAG) and it was a blast. I would look him up. Reasonable cost, lots of rounds down range and he can be humorous at times. Why does he no longer post here? (Sorry if this brings up bad blood, just curious).

[RogerinTPA]

Sounds like you want to get into the instructor training game or are you interested in taking a more advanced carbine/pistol course here in the US?

Are you currently residing in the US or UK?

If in the US and being trained in the British Army, were you trained thoroughly on the M16/M4 platform?

Most US Soldiers E-6 and higher, regardless of there job, are taught to do the same thing, to run a rifle qualification course/range on a static KD (Known Distance) range, to include weapons familiarization and safety class. Even junior officers. I ran a aerial door gunnery range as a 1LT for my Company.

Most adult American Hetero males, are familiar with shooting (hunting, basic pistol/rifle) unless their liberal hippie types, and they are inclined to abolish firearms all together, so teaching a basic course for money may not be a lucrative endeavor.

Most Infantry units world wide, just train on the known distance range unless they are a SOF type unit. They don't practice or teach "practical" weapons manipulations, shoot on the move, weak/support side shooting like the instructors mentioned in this thread. I wouldn't recommend Pat Roger's for a first course unless you have your shit wired tight. A second class yes. He teaches a fighting carbine course and the student is supposed to have a "clue" so they don't become a hazard to the rest of the class. There's a lot of turn and shoot, shoot on the move, run 50 yards and shoot multiple targets, etc...in Pat's class. As a former 11B, I thought I was pretty good with handling an M16/M-4 platform until I took a basic pistol/carbine course from Larry Vickers. His class was well beyond the basics so you still had to had a "clue" to attend. He and all the other instructors from his former tier 1 unit (tiger swan, vtac, smith, et al.) are extremely thorough and their "basic" is well advanced of any military training that the basic US Army Infantryman receives.

[Looey]

I would also recommend Jason Falla from RED BACK ONE, he is probably one of the most knowledgeable instructor in the Industry right now. he is a great shooter, Instructor and has current tactics and manipulations.
I would try to get as much training as you can from as many good instructors as you can. it is the only way to stay current and keep your edge.

[FoxBravo]

Paul Howe of CSAT (Nacogdoches,TX) is a good place to start, too.

[mikeross506]

I am somewhat confused as to all these instructor courses being touted by various training organisations and would like some clarification if possible.

Firstly my own, official uniformed experience, is British Army. The training there runs along the lines of:

Level 1: Basic military training. This takes a civvy from zilch to basic trained soldier level. Infantry and/or paratrooper training is built onto this.

A level 1 squaddie is taught the safe use and application of firearms that he/she will directly come into contact with. This includes:
a. Normal safety precautions,
b. Load, unload & make safe,
c. The marksmanship princples,
d. Firing of the weapon[s].
All of these are actively tested and continuously observed requiring certain pass, skill or marksman levels.

Level 2: The initial military skills supervisory course which allows an individual to be responsible for and train a squad of men or recruits. This includes weapons training:

a. Level 1 is revised............so that you know it with yours eyes closed, in your sleep and backwards.
b. After the revision: Each weapon has a manual laid out in a functional chapter style. Each chapter is considered a lesson. The candidate must be able to deliver any lesson chosen by the directing staff at 40 minutes notice. The candidate must deliver one practice and two graded weapons lessons.

Level 3: The final military skills supervisory course. This theoretically allows the individual NCO promotion all the way to Sgt Maj and the associated responsibility. This level allows the supervision of personnel training recruits and soldiers and the management of a live range.

a. Level 1/Level 2 is revised...........painful.
b. After revision of the lessons and manuals you must again deliver practice lessons and two graded lessons. The marking is harder and more is expected.

The guys that assess and grade you on the above courses have attended the Army's Skill at Arms Course. This is effectively the weapon instructors, instructors course.

None of the levels/courses mentioned are 'course attended' courses they are courses that are graded pass/fail...........and people do fail.

Now we are not talking tactics or drills or combat application - that is something else. We are talking teaching people the make up of a weapon, safe handling, safe use and effective accurate shooting.

So, my question finally is, I was a level 3. Where does this fall with all these carbine instructor courses.


In my opinion, regardless of your level of rank it is all dependent on

A. How experienced you are with both the weapons and the tactics...

B. How long removed are you from that training.

In my military days, I put hundreds of thousands of rounds down range running drills and live combat. Yet, SOPs and tactics vary not only by unit but they change very quickly with time! This is one of the reasons cross training is so important between units. If I was to get serious about the training circuit I would need to go back and run thru the basics again to pick up any mod's made to the TTPs

The point I'm attempting to make is that next to your very basic weapons familiarization classes, it's best to start at the beginning with the beginner levels and work up. Even different instructors will favor different techniques so make certain your base knowledge is strong before working on master level drills. CRAWL, WALK, RUN!\https://www.m4carbine.net/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[6933]

Take a couse from one of the known quality companies, see where you stand, and go from there. If you want ex-SF, then look at TigerSwan, Larry Vickers, Viking Tactics, or Trident Concepts. Can't go wrong with any of these guys.

[sinister]

Von Rheydt, as a Level 3 I would imagine your training would firmly credential you in the states as a mechanical training "Platform Instructor," to present instruction to groups.

Most non-Special Forces instructors in the states present training well on the technical use of the weapon at ranges from 7 to 50 meters.

Advanced instructors can teach and instruct on both the elementary use of the weapon as well as the tactical application of force -- there is a difference between shooting and fighting.

Many American schools have shooting instructors on staff without fighting or combat background.

The late Jeff Cooper of Gunsite was one of the first to write and codify the triad of weapons handling, shooting, and marksmanship skills; tactics and appplication; and fighting mindset. While many can flawlessly teach shooting to a very, very high standard, regurgitate and present initial tactical training well, and present instruction to develop mindset, none can develop and forge warriors over a week or weekend (or several iterations of short courses) as specialized military units where Soldier skills are taught, developed, and honed literally over years of development, repetition, and application.

Even Pat Rogers' excellent courses are derived from initial training and qualification courses for Marines and Sailors preparing for deployment iterations.