View Full Version : Limp Wrist Testing
Conducted half assed informal limp wrist tests yesterday with a Gen 3 G34, a Gen 3 G19, and two Gen 4 G17s. All ammo was WWB 115 grain fmj - 100 round value packs.
Grip used was a single handed light grasp, with the web of the hand approximately an inch below the very top of the backstrap.
One of the Gen 4 G17s would half eject the spent round. It wasn't quite a stove pipe more more like the "phase 3" was described back in the NYPD G19 troubles. However this one was easy to clear with a tap rack.
The other Gen 4 G17 fired but never ejected and stayed/returned to battery with the spent casing still chambered.
Gen 3 G34 - ditto. Spent case remained in the chamber, stayed/returned to battery.
Gen 3 G19 - ditto again. Spent case remained in the chamber, stayed/returned to battery.
All four guns, two Gen 3's and two Gen 4's failed to fully cycle. No surprise to me; I have understood since about '89 I guess that Glocks were sensitive to such things.
Useless without pictures but too late this time around. It was a spur of the moment thing as we discussed the 800 rds fired that morning across all guns with uniform 100% reliability from all of them - when shooting them with normal two handed, strong hand only or weak hand only grips.
Oh, during the time this Spring that I had a M&P Pro 9, it did fully cycle using this same grip. Didn't surprise me as it seemed very lightly sprung.
Was talking to Hackathorn the other day about the malfunctions he witnessed at a recent class.
He was of the opinion that combat HG's need to be able to run with just two fingers on the gun (middle finger and trigger finger).
To date, my 1911's, HK P7M8's and M&P's will all do this.
C4
Whoa! That's an extreme test. I think he's probably quite wrong about that just based on the Glock client base - including some of his best students. ;)
I never tried that with a P7 while I had one but my recollection is that this would be a tricky matter to get and keep it cocked that way.
We've heard of a fellow who got his hands/arms all shot up and struggled to fire his 1911. Most seemed to attribute this to the grip safety however I think it's just impossible say what was going on his nervous system vis a vis control of his hands immediately after getting shot and all.
But it's an interesting notion. We don't hear much about this across all products. I've never heard much about how HKs, or Sigs handle this. I'll have to try with the Beretta 92 next week. My hunch is it will cycle. We'll see.
All of my gen 3 Glock 9mms run with the described grip, no issues. My gen 4 G17 will do so with +P 124gr Gold Dot and other full power or +P service ammo, but not lower impulse stuff like WWB.
The newer style gen 3 framed Glock 9mms are very reliable in this regard. In my experience the frame change that occurred at the H serial number series made the G22 and G23 less reliable, but the G17 and G19 became more reliable.
My newer style G17 will cycle ammo as light as CCI snake loads, my older guns won't.
The whole "limp wrist" BS I often hear from folks trying to explain away malfunctions is very often something else entirely.
Maybe some designs more vulnerable then others, but I believe what I witnessed last week showed at least to me that 'limp wrist' is a factor.
2 guys next to me last saturday, with sometype of fullsize XD in 9mm, and one of them had malfunction after each shot. Since the guy was breaking 180 almost everytime he had to clear the jam, I sort of volunteered to take a look. Guy was using both hands, grip looked similar to what you've described, bunch of space between top of the backstrap and recoil looked like he was shooting 44 mag. Anyways, they let me shoot 2 mags about 20 rounds with ammo from same box of 50, no issues.
All of my gen 3 Glock 9mms run with the described grip, no issues. My gen 4 G17 will do so with +P 124gr Gold Dot and other full power or +P service ammo, but not lower impulse stuff like WWB.
The newer style gen 3 framed Glock 9mms are very reliable in this regard. In my experience the frame change that occurred at the H serial number series made the G22 and G23 less reliable, but the G17 and G19 became more reliable.
My newer style G17 will cycle ammo as light as CCI snake loads, my older guns won't.
The whole "limp wrist" BS I often hear from folks trying to explain away malfunctions is very often something else entirely.
Damn tpd, I must edit my OP to note that all of this was with 115 gr WWB 100 round value packs. We did not try this with +P. Man, I said it was "half assed".
I will repeat all with +P carry ammo this weekend.
Maybe some designs more vulnerable then others, but I believe what I witnessed last week showed at least to me that 'limp wrist' is a factor.
2 guys next to me last saturday, with sometype of fullsize XD in 9mm, and one of them had malfunction after each shot. Since the guy was breaking 180 almost everytime he had to clear the jam, I sort of volunteered to take a look. Guy was using both hands, grip looked similar to what you've described, bunch of space between top of the backstrap and recoil looked like he was shooting 44 mag. Anyways, they let me shoot 2 mags about 20 rounds with ammo from same box of 50, no issues.
Moskal, this is sort of what kicked off the ad hoc experiment. A shooting buddy related a story about a pal of his who is retired LEO who now basically shoots for a living and was at his range recently where someone couldn't keep a Gen 4 Glock running at all and asked for his help. He ran a few magazine through it fine and declared the gun good to go . . . depending. So we commenced to limping.
Interested to hear the results with more potent ammo. The limp-wristing issue is the only thing that keeps me from being a total Glock lover.
Maybe some designs more vulnerable then others, but I believe what I witnessed last week showed at least to me that 'limp wrist' is a factor.
2 guys next to me last saturday, with sometype of fullsize XD in 9mm, and one of them had malfunction after each shot. Since the guy was breaking 180 almost everytime he had to clear the jam, I sort of volunteered to take a look. Guy was using both hands, grip looked similar to what you've described, bunch of space between top of the backstrap and recoil looked like he was shooting 44 mag. Anyways, they let me shoot 2 mags about 20 rounds with ammo from same box of 50, no issues.
I had a similar issue when I took my gen4 19 to the range for the first time last weekend. My buddy, new to pistols couldn't seem to keep it running. Each shot the slide wouldn't cycle completely, remaining partially open with the next round only partially in the chamber. At first I was a little worried, as I'd never had any of my Glocks malfunction, but after I watched him fire a few rounds with as you describe a '44 mag recoil', I gave a few pointers on how he could improve his grip and malfunctions ceased. Gun ran great through another 400 rounds that day, and 200 this weekend, no cleaning and a little bit of lube.
The whole "limp wrist" BS I often hear from folks trying to explain away malfunctions is very often something else entirely.
Yeah!! Lack of LUBE!! :p Just kidding.... that's the other excuse I hear people use when they've bought a junk pistol.
I agree though. The limp wrist thing is overblown nonsense.
I will add that I agree it is sort of a non-issue IMO, anyone who has any real range time and training will likely never experience this. I've seen 95 pound girls shoot more confidently than my friend did his first time out, I couldn't believe the muzzle flip when he shot. Just interested to hear somebody do this intentionally.
Yeah!! Lack of LUBE!! :p Just kidding.... that's the other excuse I hear people use when they've bought a junk pistol.
I agree though. The limp wrist thing is overblown nonsense.
I would probably agree with you that its not a factor, BUT shooting factory ammo from same box, same mags. Went from malfunction literally after each shot, to 20 rounds no issues, back to malfunction on each shot.
QuickStrike
08-31-10, 00:19
Very interesting. Next time I shoot my glocks, specifically my g26 I will test for this.
I'll try to hold the gun both ways:
Limp and holding at the bottom of the grip. Maybe the trigger will be pressed with just the index finger from the other hand.
And holding it with only my index and thumb while pressing the trigger with the other hand's index finger.
About 50 rounds per method?
I will add that I agree it is sort of a non-issue IMO, anyone who has any real range time and training will likely never experience this. I've seen 95 pound girls shoot more confidently than my friend did his first time out, I couldn't believe the muzzle flip when he shot. Just interested to hear somebody do this intentionally.
My worry is in a high stress situation where you don't get that grip just right, or trying to draw from concealment and coming up a little short. The time when you need the reliability the most might be the time that it chokes on you. Not to mention needing to fire while injured.
It just worries me, and it's the one thing I just can't get past when it comes to the Glock. I want to love it...I even like the grip angle. But my experience with "limp-wristing" leaves me kinda cold.
Whoa! That's an extreme test. I think he's probably quite wrong about that just based on the Glock client base - including some of his best students. ;)
I never tried that with a P7 while I had one but my recollection is that this would be a tricky matter to get and keep it cocked that way.
We've heard of a fellow who got his hands/arms all shot up and struggled to fire his 1911. Most seemed to attribute this to the grip safety however I think it's just impossible say what was going on his nervous system vis a vis control of his hands immediately after getting shot and all.
But it's an interesting notion. We don't hear much about this across all products. I've never heard much about how HKs, or Sigs handle this. I'll have to try with the Beretta 92 next week. My hunch is it will cycle. We'll see.
Ken wrong? Doubtful. ;)
In a Super Dave class, he did this exact drill with his 1911. No issues.
I will see if I can get my video camera up and demo this drill with all my carry guns.
C4
Moskal, this is sort of what kicked off the ad hoc experiment. A shooting buddy related a story about a pal of his who is retired LEO who now basically shoots for a living and was at his range recently where someone couldn't keep a Gen 4 Glock running at all and asked for his help. He ran a few magazine through it fine and declared the gun good to go . . . depending. So we commenced to limping.
Part of my other discussion with Ken was about limp wristing and the GEN 4 Glocks. He does not believe that is the cause of the malfunctions (is a mechanical issue with the gun).
C4
My worry is in a high stress situation where you don't get that grip just right, or trying to draw from concealment and coming up a little short. The time when you need the reliability the most might be the time that it chokes on you. Not to mention needing to fire while injured.
It just worries me, and it's the one thing I just can't get past when it comes to the Glock. I want to love it...I even like the grip angle. But my experience with "limp-wristing" leaves me kinda cold.
Dude we have ran Glocks upside down holding it with three fingers just to show our students that sight alignment is sight alignment and had no issues.
I wouldn't trade my Glock for any gun in the market right now, but there is a lot of other guns out there that are as reliable as a Glock.
I would be more worried about the XD's beaver tail safety and forgetting or not being able to hit that before firing in a bad situation, i think the Glock with good ammo will run better or just as good as any other polymer frame out there.
Just my opinion. :D
Dude we have ran Glocks upside down holding it with three fingers just to show our students that sight alignment is sight alignment and had no issues.
I wouldn't trade my Glock for any gun in the market right now, but there is a lot of other guns out there that are as reliable as a Glock.
I would be more worried about the XD's beaver tail safety and forgetting or not being able to hit that before firing in a bad situation, i think the Glock with good ammo will run better or just as good as any other polymer frame out there.
Just my opinion. :D
When I owned a GEN 3 G19, I did the two finger test. No issues. Others do though (ones that are double my size and strength). So I think what it comes down to is wrist angle and the ability to lock ones wrist while shooting.
C4
I've never seen Glocks foul from limp wristing when it wasn't deliberately induced. This includes inexperienced shooters under my tutelage, including slightly built and non-athletic females. I never allowed them to creep their grip down the backstrap but always insured they were up high where their grip belonged. I know they didn't have much hand or wrist strength. And they ran the guns fine.
I've shot almost every Glock I've owned at one time or another with a light grasp of old school bullseye shooting with a K-22 and not had a problem.
My own theory is that moving down the backstrap is worse than unlocked wrists since I've shot a lot of rounds from odd positions where the wrist wasn't really lined up locked.
Next opportunity - Sat at the latest I'll repeat tests with +p ammo.
I never allowed them to creep their grip down the backstrap but always insured they were up high where their grip belonged.
My own theory is that moving down the backstrap is worse than unlocked wrists since I've shot a lot of rounds from odd positions where the wrist wasn't really lined up locked.
That actually makes a lot of sense, I wish I had known to look for that at the time. I'll keep that in mind for future reference. Also, do you think you'll be able to get pictures/video for your next test?
More "limp wrist" testing of Gen 3's and Gen 4's today. Tests this time were with Winchester 124 gr NATO loads which should provide a reasonable facsimile of +P ammo.
The attached pic displays the grip applied to each gun which is the grip which fouled all the guns in the OP with WWB 115gr.
Gen 3 G17 - cycled fine
Gen 3 G19 - cycled fine
Gen 4 G19 - cycled fine
Gen 4 G17 - (with over 4K rds) - cycled fine
Gen 4 G17 - (with 1200 rds) - did not cycle
Beretta 92FS - cycled fine
500 rds of Blazer 115gr followed through the junior Gen 4 G17 and the Gen 4 G19 with superior results.
Absolutely pointless thread...
OH, what I meant to post was, should I get a carbine or midlength gas system? :fie: I've heard a lot of 2nd hand bitching about Glocks and limpwristing around here for a few months. Now I know.
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