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BattleDrill3
08-30-10, 22:43
The skinny: this IS NOT a Vibram Five Finger thread. This is not a Chi Running/mid-foot running vs "traditional" running thread. This is about being tired of sore knees, tired of looking for VFF Bikila's in my size, remembering being inspired as a young private by a member of RRD at Benning, and eventually, eight years later, just saying, "**** it."

No VFF's, no Nike Free's, just barefoot. Some internet/anecdotal research later, and here we are. Anyone else who's taken this admittedly odd path, feel free to add your observations/horror stories. Feel free to ask questions, but realize this: while I have been training people in physical fitness for years, I AM NOT AN EXPERT in barefoot running. Today, August 30th, 2010, is my first day trying it. THERE WILL BE NO DISCUSSION of opinions about the merits of one method vs. the other, just observations of what I experience.

That said, I felt this warranted a new thread, but moderators, if you disagree, feel free to throw this in somewhere else. I already rashly started a new thread about something before checking around, and I learned my lesson. And thus, the experiment begins.

BattleDrill3
08-30-10, 23:43
I'm a fairly fit 27 year old man, 5'10," 170 lbs. Spending the better part of a decade of jumping out of planes, wearing a ruck, climbing large vertical pieces of earth, and running missions in the predictable places, my knees (specifically my MCL and quadriceps tendons) have begun hurting all the time.

Worth mentioning: I have extremely flat arches. I got away with it in my early twenties, but that has begun to take its toll. For the past six months or so, I've been wearing custom orthotics. MCL pain has decreased, no difference in quadriceps tendons. I began stretching and doing yoga twice a day, which has helped some, but knees still hurt. (Don't knock yoga. As long as you don't wear capris, which some of the fellas do, you'll be fine. Besides, women with the most ridiculously amazing bodies in very little clothing can be found in a yoga studio. If the idea of being spotted in public doing yoga is too much, I'd suggest looking at David Swenson videos.)

After a lot of warming up, I can run, but there's a fair amount of pain after I finish. I've been running with a mid-foot strike while still wearing shoes for about two months now, which has significantly reduced the post-run pain as compared to running with a heel strike. (This could also be my lower legs responding to the orthotics as well.) I'd say I average a fifteen mile-week, running four or five days a week, slowing to a 7:30 per mile pace while getting used to mid-foot running.

Initially, there was a quite lot of what Kyle Defoor talks about (knee/shin/Achilles tendon/calf pain). To counter this, I began stretching my calves in sets of three, thirty seconds at a time, three times a day. It worked quite well. In addition to the usual calf stretches, I stretched with the same frequency the soleus (lower calf). This is one of the most important things to do to prevent Achilles tendonitis and shin splints, two of the more common problems associated with mid-foot running. More info about shin splints here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_splints

A great video by Everest Therapeutics illustrates stretching the soleus perfectly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i8QwoscojU

Shoes began feeling very cumbersome. It felt like they were preventing me from running the way my body wanted run, so as an experiment, I tried to slightly reduce the clumsiness of it all by running without socks. Despite a blister that covered almost the entire instep of my right foot, it felt a much better. The blister ripped off completely during the run, so I let it heal for a day or two, poured a shitload of superglue on it, and decided to start running again. This time, no shoes, no socks.

tampam4
08-30-10, 23:48
I had huge problems with shin splints when I first started getting ready for the Navy. It wouldn't hurt so bad when I was actually running, but as soon as I stopped, I could hardly walk, and I'd be down for a week afterwards, and couldn't run more than a few steps without my shins feeling like they were in a vice.

In fact, it was Mr. Defoor himself here on M4C that suggested my issues were from heel striking. I tried running fairly short distances barefoot to help me figure out what it felt like to strike midfoot, because if you heel strike barefoot on asphalt, you'll die in about 7 steps:p I ran barefoot for about two weeks, and then switched back to shoes. As of now, no problems with any shin splints, but I do have to consciously think about where my foot is landing most of the time.

BattleDrill3
08-31-10, 00:44
I decided to start off slow, so two miles at an 8:00 minute pace. After some serious stretching and a walk to the road, I stashed the shoes and socks behind a guard rail, and off I went.

My initial impressions: amazing. Un-****ing-believable. This is exactly what I've been looking for. There is no question if your form is good or not...if your heels smash into the ground, you're wrong. You can feel the jarring all the way into your teeth. If not, you're doing something right. It just felt fast, light, and quiet.

Quite quickly, I noticed some tightness at the very bottom of my Achilles tendons. It subsided after a 1/2 mile or so.

For a few minutes, it was absolutely perfect. Running was fun again. Zero pain. Having nothing between my feet and the ground was completely liberating. If you've ever ridden a motorcycle before, recall your first time riding a bike down a road you thought you were familiar with...you just notice more, and you're just more aware of everything around you. Same sensation here. It was dark out, so I ran with a Surefire to really illuminate the road and see what lay ahead.

Fortunately, despite the euphoria, I had the discipline to turn around at one mile as planned. Right about then, the feet started getting a bit tender. I ran over some small rocks (ouchtown, population me), but scraped them off by dragging my feet slightly on the lines on the road. They were significantly smoother than the asphalt, so I decided to run in the middle of the road on the double lines, one for each foot. At the end of the run, to be honest, the foot were hurting a bit, but quite simply, that was the best run I have ever had. Thankfully, I've built up some decent callouses, so I'm not too worried.

If you're living with a significant other, have a pair of sandals or something by the door before you walk in the house; your feet will be dirty as all ****. There will be bitching.

As soon as I stopped running, I stretched my calves, emphasizing the soleus. Over the next twenty minutes or so, the feets began to hurt progressively more, but nothing too bad. Gone in forty five minutes. Zero post-run pain I usually encounter. Calves felt slightly tight for about 1/2 hour.

Conclusions: I will never wear another pair of shoes to run again. That simple. (Well, unless someone of significantly higher rank tells me to.) I actually look forward to running again. If I could do it over, I'd suggest starting out with 1 1/2 miles. If you haven't been running with a mid-foot strike at all, I'd really slow it down...my calves were significantly tighter than they've been in awhile. Like the first time I ran with a mid-foot strike, but stronger.

Other than that, it was absolutely perfect. Like I said, running is fun again. Just can't put it into words.

I'll skip a day, and go with 1 1/2 miles next time, pick up the speed to 7:30.

For more on form, here are three videos. In the first, a woman describes finer points of body position during mid-foot running. (She calls it "Chi running." Don't worry, it's just mid-foot running - some people need trendy-sounding names to call shit.) The second is a man running barefoot on a treadmill. The third is a woman running with shoes on a treadmill. (You've seen this one before if you follow Kyle Defoor's blog.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UYkAB18wgs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbgSEG_Yx2k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrOgDCZ4GUo

Be safe.

Von Rheydt
08-31-10, 09:28
There was a South African at Castelnaudry (Foreign Legion) in '85 he used to run barefoot. Every time they got lined up for a run and the pre-run inspection was over the squad would set off, he would sit down, take off his boots and follow on usually coming in ahead of everyone else.

I read about a tribe in South America that effectively runs in bare feet. They ace the long distance utra running events with a style that looks very ploddy. The legs pump up and down more than stretching forward and landing on the heel.

The article I read was written by a Norte Americano guy who went down to learn their style. He said these guys think nothing of running 100 miles in a day and they will run along with a couple of friends and chat as they are going. The thing they have though is that although they do not wear trainers they wear very simple leather sandals. Basically a flat piece of leather for the foot and a couple of straps. Like you see women wearing. This protects the sole from abrasions and punctures but is effectively still bare footed.

Sorry, but I don't think I have the article anymore.

As you were airborne you probably did something similar to what we call the para-shuffle in the UK. Thats when you do a speed march with kit. You do not actually march as the shin pressure would be too much and you don't run for a variety of health reasons. Its sort of between a walk and run like a trot, you tend to land either on the balls of your feet or flatter footed. Once you get the rhythm sorted even with kit on you can go at a steady 5 - 6 mph.*



*UK APFT required 8 miles in 1hr20min with kit and weapon + drinking water. Royal Marines, 9 miles in 1hr30mins.

Naxet1959
08-31-10, 10:09
I was on a 4 mile run in South Dakota and got to thinking it was time to get new shoes. With a little over a mile left, I thought "lets just try this barefoot thing". Off go the shoes but I left the socks on. NICE, except for the small gravel bits here and there. So later when I'm back home, I want to try it again. Off for a 5 miler and its raining lightly. The first 3-4 miles it was good, the 5th was a bit tougher on the concrete. Blacktop just feels awesome and smooth. Back home, my feet are just solid black. It stains the feet big time. Fast forward to June, I have a half marathon and its hot and humid. At mile 10, I can't stand it anymore and take off the shoes and socks, tie them together and hang over my back. Instant relief! Cooler by tons, lighter legs and an awesome foot massage via the blacktop. Everything's good until the last half mile. Its mostly downhill and my heels have made blisters the size of a half dollar. Ouch.. one is filled with blood, the other is clear. For a couple of days it was tough to wear shoes but finally in August, they finally popped.

I will try Vibrams in the spring because I would like some protection but really love the barefoot. I'm the same size as the OP, also with very flat feet. Unfortunately, I'm waaaayy slower runner (9:30-10 minute miler) which means more plodding than running!

BattleDrill3
08-31-10, 10:34
Good to see some people giving this a try.

Tampam: I've also noticed, despite having (I hope) decent mid-foot running form, when I wore shoes I had to consciously think about where my foot would strike. No question about that when barefoot, for sure.

Von Rheydt: I during timed rucks, I used to shuffle/jog. It's absolute MURDER on your knees, however, so I just practiced taking faster walking strides. It seems more tiring, particularly on your hip flexors, but it got easier with time. French Foreign Legion? In '85? Back when it was hard. I was three years old then. My hat goes off to you.

Naxet: Yeah, there has been some damage to the bottoms of my feet as well. (More on that later.) After feeling my feet this morning, I was tempted to go with VFF's. I'll stick it out, however. Don't worry, callouses come surprisingly quickly. In the interim, superglue is your friend! If it feels like "plodding", check out those vids I posted...even when I coasted at the end for a few hundred meters, I stayed on form, and it was still pretty fluid. Good luck!

Von Rheydt
08-31-10, 11:12
Von Rheydt: I during timed rucks, I used to shuffle/jog. It's absolute MURDER on your knees, however, so I just practiced taking faster walking strides. It seems more tiring, particularly on your hip flexors, but it got easier with time. French Foreign Legion? In '85? Back when it was hard. I was three years old then. My hat goes off to you.

I was'nt in La Legion, I was liaising with them - theres always more than a few of you yanks there though.


I will try Vibrams in the spring because I would like some protection but really love the barefoot. I'm the same size as the OP, also with very flat feet. Unfortunately, I'm waaaayy slower runner (9:30-10 minute miler) which means more plodding than running!

Look for some sandle type things like I mentioned. I'll do some googling myself and see what I can find on the south american indian runners.

militarymoron
08-31-10, 11:14
disclaimer: i'm more of a jogger, not a runner. usually 7:30 - 8:30 mile pace for 2-3 miles 3x a week.
i've been a asics gel kayano user for years, but i was interested in barefoot running and first tried the 'minimalist shoe' running with my old nike aqua socks, and it felt good enough to continue. first week or so my calves got sore after the runs, but eventually got used to it. it also took a while to settle into my current mid-foot style. when i started, i was running too much on the forefoot.
i then tried barefoot on asphalt/concrete, but being a tenderfoot, was more focused on the small rocks/pebbles and also blisters than my running style.
so, i bought some VFF bikilas right when they came out and have been using them ever since. i like them. i get a close-to-barefoot experience (as far as running style) without worrying about FOD on my feet. i'm sticking with the bikilas as they're working well for my needs right now.

Von Rheydt
08-31-10, 11:26
Ha, found them - the Indians and their sandals.

The Indians are called TARUHUMARA there is lots on google for them the guy I mentioned wrote a book about them called BORN TO RUN:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarahumara

Their minimalist sandal which you can easily DIY is called a HUARACHE also lots on google about them.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd0sf3_minimalist-running-shoes-huarache-t_sport

BattleDrill3
08-31-10, 12:46
I noticed I got pretty long-winded last night...just excited, I guess. I'll be a bit more terse from now on.

Woke up with hamstrings tighter than normal (due to the pronounced heel backswing), and sore calves. I stood up, and it was much worse. Kinda wanted to cry. I've been running mid-foot for awhile, and still, this was worse than the first time I tried changing my form. If you're just starting out, I'd start off with one mile or less, not too much pace. But all in all, nothing stretching and Ranger candy (Motrin) can't cure.

My feet must have been numb last night...there is definite sole pain, and blisters on all my toes. One directly on the ball of my right foot. Nothing a needle, a lighter, and some superglue can't cure. I'll have to try the ancient art of sucking it up. (I'm serious about the glue.) Thank God it's a rest day. Time to get my stretch on.

BattleDrill3
08-31-10, 13:00
Thanks for the info! I'll stick with barefoot for now...the roads are pretty clean. Besides, it's good to have some decent callouses. The winter, certainly, will change my mind; I'll probably have to go the VFF Bikila route. MM, where did you get yours? Couldn't find my size at REI, and I was too lazy to do much interweb digging. Excellent site, by the way; I've used it for a lot of reference.

VR: Have you tried making the sandals? I've hear of the book 'Born to Run' before, but I've never bothered to check it out. Will make the time. And I haven't been called a 'Yank' in awhile. Then again, haven't been around Brits, Aussies, or Kiwis in about a year.

Be safe.

militarymoron
08-31-10, 14:24
i got the bikilas at sports chalet.
http://www.sportchalet.com/p2p/endecaSearch.do?pageName=Home+Page&keyword=bikila&byStateSubmit.x=0&byStateSubmit.y=0

thanks - glad you like the site.

BattleDrill3
08-31-10, 14:28
Log a couple thousand miles with a ruck on your back, and this process becomes less gross. Sterilize the needle (I use the ol’ lighter trick), wipe it off with something sanitary, and thread it. Lance each blister long-ways, tie a knot in the thread at each end, clip it, and go about your day. As white blood cells continue to develop, they will steadily drain out via the thread. (The needle was left in for demonstration purposes only. Don’t be a moron. Take it out before you put socks on.) Holla.

Buckaroo
08-31-10, 14:47
Log a couple thousand miles with a ruck on your back, and this process becomes less gross. Sterilize the needle (I use the ol’ lighter trick), wipe it off with something sanitary, and thread it. Lance each blister long-ways, tie a knot in the thread at each end, clip it, and go about your day. As white blood cells continue to develop, they will steadily drain out via the thread. (The needle was left in for demonstration purposes only. Don’t be a moron. Take it out before you put socks on.) Holla.

Now that is a nifty trick!

Thanks for being a test mule for us :D

Buckaroo

variablebinary
09-01-10, 00:54
There is an indoor track near where I live.

I might try a barefoot run and see how it feels. I'm too much of a tender foot to try it outdoors.

I really need to work on my form because as of right now I am coming down on my heel.

BattleDrill3
09-01-10, 01:10
Binary: Just go for it, bro. Watch the three videos I posted earlier in the thread, particularly the one with the woman running on the treadmill. The form just works itself out. Don't sweat the super-small shit the woman in the first video mentions just yet. You'll just start running, and without realizing it, a smile will come over your face. It's amazing. Just stretch those calves, particularly in the way I mentioned earlier.

And about the blister post: don't leave the threads in all day. Ideally, stay off your feet if you can. The blister on the ball of my foot had to be drained, but the rest were small enough to just pierce with a needle, squeeze, and forget about. It was mostly for illustrative purposes...when you get blisters almost the size of your palm (happened to me in SFAS), you'll know when to use that trick.

Von Rheydt
09-01-10, 09:24
VR: Have you tried making the sandals? I've hear of the book 'Born to Run' before, but I've never bothered to check it out. Will make the time. And I haven't been called a 'Yank' in awhile. Then again, haven't been around Brits, Aussies, or Kiwis in about a year.

I suppose you've been called a "Spam" also? Its not derogatory, Brit Squaddies call Americans Spams like you call us Limeys.

After I read about the guy I used some old thinsoled sandals I had knocking around for a couple of runs. The problem was British weather. It is not ideal for barefoot anything so I went back to trainers but worked on changing my foot strike placement style a tad.

SFAS and blisters, that'd be a bit like pre-selection and blisters. Not that I got all the way but you do learn that you can never have enough pairs of well worn in, almost ready to fall apart, carpet slipper like boots and well washed socks.

One trick that you barefooters with tender feet may consider. We used to soak our feet in a mild and shallow Pottasium Permanganate solution for around 20 mins every night to harden the soles. Its no substitute for building up hard skin from actual activity but it can put off small, early blisters.

Psst: Its useful to always have some Pottasium Permanganate around anyway. Its good for water purification, sterilising and fire starting.

BattleDrill3
09-03-10, 09:26
Went on the second run yesterday; waited another day to really prevent the possibility of shin splints. Stretched well, and took off. 1 mile, 7:00 pace. As a little protection, I smeared a nice layer of superglue over the balls of my feet and toes, concentrating on the areas that had the blisters before. I noticed almost immediately that there was still a bit of tenderness to the feets. The glue helped...until it started raining. Lesson learned here: if you're just starting out with barefoot running, and precipitation begins, turn your ass around, and walk the **** home. Ouch. Quite painful. Last 3/4 mile was quite uncomfortable, to say the least. Despite that, I had no blisters, and it wasn't the glue; it had largely been scraped off by that point. On another note, I found an outdoor track on post that I was unaware of. Sorry, asphalt. I think it's best you and I start seeing other people for awhile.

BWT
09-03-10, 11:19
Cruising through and just thought I'd say something, I don't run, haven't for quite some time, I do cardio in the gym and what not, but thought I could offer a suggestion.

I might try looking around your areas for maybe a park or recreational area, some parks have only have paths with pinestraw laid (which sounds uncomfortable at first, but honestly, I think that's only when it's fresh, it would probably be mostly broken up/flattened from people walking over those areas regularly).

That might be a venture worth pursuing.

I read the thread, thought it was interesting and thought I'd give a suggestion.

rdbse
09-03-10, 12:53
I too suggest finding some soft surfaces such as grass recreational fields (soccer, football, golf courses, etc.)

Not a minimalist or barefoot guy... I run mostly in light-weight neutral trainers, races and faster running in racing flats, and occasionally do barefoot strides on grass.

theblackknight
09-04-10, 17:36
I was just coming here to start this tread, but its already here.


I have princess feet, and every hump I'd ever done, I'd get epic blisters and hate life.I can patrol all day long, but humping just tears them up. Well I started running on the beach and it seem to toughen them up. Had a hump last thrusday and no blisters. I just got back from a 20 min run on rough asphault. Im soar and have skin peeling, but it only started to hurt after I was done. Living by the beach, I find im wearing shoes less even to places that arnt right on the beach and its good for keeping them tough.

Im getting some 5 fingers soon tho.

BattleDrill3
09-04-10, 23:55
Glad to see I'm not the only idiot interested in trying something somewhat questionable. Thanks for all the suggestions, but I'm going to ride this train as far as it'll take me.

Went on run number three tonight; 1/2 mile repeats on the aforementioned outdoor rubber track. For the first two iterations the feet, even on the track, were extremely sensitive. Took the fun out of it really. During the next two, I simply though of something else (or my feet became numb), and it was the running nirvana I experienced on my first run. A little stiffness in the soleus and upper gastonemius, but stretching between sets cured that well. Blisters don't appear to be an issue anymore.

Conclusions: I imagine I've entered the period in which many call it quits when trying barefoot running. Despite having some good calluses (I imagine this pain might be much worse for non-military types or through-hikers), I just have to fight through this. Like first learning to play the guitar, waiting for those calluses to come in.

Von Rheydt: Never been called a 'spam.' I always thought 'limey' was a derogatory term, but now that I have the green light, I'll try it out.

Variablebinary: Did you try it out? Give it a go; you never have to buy new shoes, if nothing else.

Blackknight: The next time you go on a road march, look at the way you walk. The tendency is to take super long strides during rucks. If that's the case, the angle between your foot and the ground is quite high. When your heel hits the ground at such an angle, usually with some degree of force (particularly after you're tired), your feet slides to the back of the boot and causes friction and thus, blisters. Just a thought. A good orthotic insole that really cups the heel and offers metatarsal support will also prevent this. When patrolling, your steps are much more deliberate and less forceful, and would explain the disparity. What kind of socks are you wearing? Blisters are caused by the blisters rubbing against the socks; give Smartwools, Bridgedales, or Fox River socks a look. I'd suggest Smartwools. Powder your shit, but not with too much, and for ****'s sake, don't make the mistake of using spray-on anti-perspirant on your feet. Once or twice is okay, but more than that, and the skin on your feet will dry and crack, and you will be ****ed. For realsies. Lastly, let me know where you get the blisters. I'm pretty high on the TUR (Time Under Ruck) scale, as I'm sure you are; we can put our heads together and make things a bit better for you. Don't give up on the barefoot! When you finally get those good calluses, you'll be happy you did.

theblackknight
09-05-10, 13:27
My feet are just soft and moist. Each march has got me blisters in a different place. I wear these http://www.covertthreads.com/ in the sands version and green throlos I got on a Army base.

My personal worst was a tie between each heel have a blister cover the complete bottom of my feet, and once just straight bleeding open wound. In boot camp, I had a blister on the bottom of my foot creep up the side as i walked on it all day.

All my runs before yesterday were on the beach running on shells on purpose to speed up the effect. Yesterday was 1st time on concrete. It was smooth grey to black rough thru the run.

heres the "damage"
NOTE. THat red sore was preexsisting.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/mxer1/IMG_20100905_124116.jpg

BattleDrill3
09-05-10, 20:59
Darkknight: Judging by the placement of the blisters (predominantly between the ball of the foot and the big toe, and the side of the big toe), it looks to me a sock problem. First, drop the Thorlo's like 3rd period French. While they've made improvements made over the years, the simply lack some of the technical features in some other socks. Also, I have never heard of Covert Threads. (Not saying that the fact that I've never heard of them automatically makes them terrible, but I do think I follow the tactical/mountaineering clothing industry quite closely for things I'm missing out on.)

My first suggestion would be Smartwool light or medium hiking crew socks. I've worn these throughout Afghanistan, Alaska, Iraq, and Nepal with great results. According to a Military Times Gear Scout survey, they are the favorite of troops in the 'Stan, and with good reason. Stupid comfortable, stay tight to the arch of the foot without strangling it, and can go close to a week without washing before they get matted down. At around 16 bones apiece, they ain't cheap, but they will last forever. I still have pairs from 2002 that lasted through many expeditions and multiple deployments.

I think a common problem for soldiers is to wear socks with a super-thick sole, like Thorlos. You don't need that shit, man. The more padding, the more your feet move in the socks, the more blisters. After a few miles, you're not going to notice the padding anyway, and they usually just make your feet sweat more. From rucksack shoulder pads, to running shoes, to socks, there is a common misconception that there has to be a ton of padding.

They are only crew length, however. Let me know if you need a longer length. Try one of each weight for now (light and medium), and let me know how it works out.

Be safe.

Just noticed your quote...not sure if you were being serious or not, but I can assure you the plates do stop 7.62 AP. A couple friends took some rounds to the chest and sides, and lived to tell the tale. (They became heavy smokers, yes, but heavy smokers that were still alive.)

theblackknight
09-07-10, 11:10
Just noticed your quote...not sure if you were being serious or not, but I can assure you the plates do stop 7.62 AP. A couple friends took some rounds to the chest and sides, and lived to tell the tale. (They became heavy smokers, yes, but heavy smokers that were still alive.)

That quote was from some retard in CMC 0933 course.

thanks for the info.

BattleDrill3
09-07-10, 11:46
Blacknight: Did you try any of those socks? And about the plates - a couple of idiot friends of mine took their rear plates out their first time in the 'Stan. High up on the hills, behind some cover and with good fields of fire, yeah, take the whole vest off. Kicking down doors, another story. Anyway, try the socks.

Be safe.

Kyle Defoor
09-07-10, 12:10
Good to see more people running the right way.

Just got done this weekend with the Iron Mountain 50 (51 actually), I came in 17th overall. Out of the finishers, a lot of us were minimal runners, and it was a rough course.

I had no injuries, no blisters, no missing nails, etc. None of the minimal guys did that I know of. That should say something to the proper footstrike, equipment, etc.

I did however run it in Salomon Xa's because my last set of New Balance 100's were worn out and NB isn't coming out with the new 101 until October(they stopped production of the 100 in my size a couple months back). Sometimes you have to go with what you have, and with a short stride, mid-foot strike, and minimal bullshit to get in the way, I was easily able to transfer to the Salomon's and have no issues-another benefit of running correctly.

NB will be launching the Minimus Series in early 2011. It will consist of a trail version, a street version and an in between shoe. This should be the best minimal shoe ever, and take the shortcomings of the VFF away and make it better. In fact, the sole of the Minimus shoes will be made by Vibram.

Also, I have an awesome program on my blog now that chonicles my daily for those interested. It gives a good idea of time and mileage. Hope it will help some people.

V/R,
Kyle

BattleDrill3
09-08-10, 03:37
Kyle Defoor! The man, the myth, the legend himself. An honor.

Like I mentioned in earlier posts, I started barefoot simply because I felt like shoes were stopping me from running naturally, and I just couldn't find VFF Bikila's in my size. I didn't even know that barefoot running was something real people (non-hippies not being chased by lions) did until fairly recently. Some googling revealed it's apparently popular. (Again, mostly hippies.)

Despite having read a little about mid-foot running, I didn't really understand it until I saw the video you posted on your site last year about proper running form. I'd cut back on the running at that point because of near-constant knee pain; I gave it a try some time after that (out of desperation), and the pain's all but gone.

Of course, I thought I had decent mid-foot running form since then, so I figured most of the growing pains would already be ironed out when I started barefoot. But when I took the shoes off, the form just happened. The high heel kick (which led to some sore hams the next day for never having done that before) was the most noticeable change. And ridiculously sore calves for about a week.

I almost bought a pair of Newton Running racers, another minimalist shoe, instead of going barefoot. Have you tried those? They are more comfortable even than (gasp!) the Salomon XA Pro 3d's - the standard against which I measure all shoes. I took them for a spin around the block, and they're certainly the 'fastest' feeling shoe I've ever worn. But I was determined to try barefoot at that point, so I didn't bother. If you're insistent on keeping shoes on, I cannot suggest those enough. Crazy comfortable.

http://barefootrunningshoes.org/newton-running-shoes/

Thanks again for the info - I don't know of another instructor out there who puts so much emphasis on fitness.

Be safe.

Militant83
09-08-10, 16:06
While i was in Iraq recently. One of my friends got me into the Vibram Five Fingers. I was kind of skeptical at first but I decided to give them a shot and ordered a pair of the KSOs. Even though I havent been able to run any long distances in them due to medical reasons. I have been wearing them to workout and they are very comfortable and light.

BattleDrill3
09-09-10, 01:11
Things couldn't have gone better this run. I waited until 10 at night, drove out to the track, and wouldn't you know it! A handful of Air Force OCS candidates in the middle of an informal PT test. I walked out of my car barefoot, walked to the track catching some dick-growing-out-of-my-forehead looks, and couldn't help but smile as I began stretching.

I calmly walked up to them and asked if they wouldn't mind timing me as well. A few dumb comments concerning my lack of shoes later, and they agreed. Things were simply perfect today. The track was lightly damp from some ealier rain, which softened it up significantly, a light breeze, and temps around 75. I just couldn't run fast enough.

Tightness in the Achilles tendon to begin, but gone in a quarter mile. No pain in the feet at all. Interestingly, Air Force types do a one and a half mile run, rather than the two that I'm used to. No matter. I managed to finish my two miles before any of them could finish their one and a half. I really put on the gas, as a statement and as an experiment, and it couldn't have gone better. 11:08, final time. The fastest I've run in awhile. The looks on their faces...priceless. Yeah, I'm kinda badass. Still a long ways to go back to my one-time PR - 9:59 - but I can't complain. No more shoes ever again if I can help it. To quote George Costanza, "This...is my religion."

bsf
09-09-10, 22:04
…….Tightness in the Achilles tendon to begin, but gone in a quarter mile. No pain in the feet at all. Interestingly, Air Force types do a one and a half mile run, rather than the two that I'm used to. No matter. I managed to finish my two miles before any of them could finish their one and a half. I really put on the gas, as a statement and as an experiment, and it couldn't have gone better. 11:08, final time. The fastest I've run in awhile. The looks on their faces...priceless. Yeah, I'm kinda badass. Still a long ways to go back to my one-time PR - 9:59 - but I can't complain. No more shoes ever again if I can help it. To quote George Costanza, "This...is my religion."

Nice. I would love to be capable of maintaining that pace for more than 100m. Since one of my long-time, recreational pursuits has me barefoot in the sand frequently, I started running barefoot in the sand this Spring. It is probably a combination of the soft surface and better form, but I never have any soreness from running in the sand. Still wear shoes on hard surfaces, but I am thinking of heading up to a track this weekend and trying to rip off a 5k barefoot.

rugbymike
09-10-10, 17:56
I'm a Vibram Fice Finger Runner, and I love them. They work great. I do use Zensha Calf Compression Leg Sleeves, worth the money.

theblackknight
09-11-10, 17:45
Good to see more people running the right way.

Just got done this weekend with the Iron Mountain 50 (51 actually), I came in 17th overall. Out of the finishers, a lot of us were minimal runners, and it was a rough course.

I had no injuries, no blisters, no missing nails, etc. None of the minimal guys did that I know of. That should say something to the proper footstrike, equipment, etc.

I did however run it in Salomon Xa's because my last set of New Balance 100's were worn out and NB isn't coming out with the new 101 until October(they stopped production of the 100 in my size a couple months back). Sometimes you have to go with what you have, and with a short stride, mid-foot strike, and minimal bullshit to get in the way, I was easily able to transfer to the Salomon's and have no issues-another benefit of running correctly.

NB will be launching the Minimus Series in early 2011. It will consist of a trail version, a street version and an in between shoe. This should be the best minimal shoe ever, and take the shortcomings of the VFF away and make it better. In fact, the sole of the Minimus shoes will be made by Vibram.

Also, I have an awesome program on my blog now that chonicles my daily for those interested. It gives a good idea of time and mileage. Hope it will help some people.

V/R,
Kyle

Ive bee reading your blog for about a month now. Keep it up, it's good to read about everything from gear to training from someone whos really been there in a informal fashion. I did my 1st barefoot run right after reading your blog and not being about to stay glued to the computer.

BattleDrill3
09-12-10, 17:58
Apparently, simply taking your shoes off and running is a tad complicated for some folks. After all the noise I was making about barefoot running, my father insisted I show him how. Mind you, this man has run a few marathons, and has been keen for some time to move to mid-foot running.

"Off with the shoes," I said. "Look just about the horizon, and run." Somehow, he still managed to stomp along with his heels hitting the ground. How is this possible? Mind you, he's never been the most graceful gazelle in the herd, but I kind of assumed this would be easy for him. Links to youtube videos were sent. Hours (minutes, really) of instruction. Nothing.

After two days straight of trying to run barefoot, despite my warnings, he now can barely walk because of the calf pain. I simply refuse to take his calls at this point. Lesson: if you're old (fifty), and have never tried barefoot running, go VERY slowly, very short, and rest at least three days between runs.

If you've never done any sort of mid-foot running at all, follow this advice as well before running barefoot. Even if you're not fifty. By the way, I went running through a golf course barefoot at two in the morning. Top five most enjoyable things I've ever done. Fairways are amazing! Greens, while small, are like running on sponges. Galloping up and down hills, leaping over bunkers...give it a go. Un-****ing-real.

rdbse
09-12-10, 18:19
By the way, I went running through a golf course barefoot at two in the morning. Top five most enjoyable things I've ever done. Fairways are amazing! Greens, while small, are like running on sponges. Galloping up and down hills, leaping over bunkers...give it a go. Un-****ing-real.


I know exactly what you mean. I love running on grass, which was probably ingrained in me from my days of high school and college cross-country. Most golfers don't appreciate runners on their turf so I understand running a night.

Several years ago, when I was in great shape, some buddies and I would hit the local high society country club as dusk. We had some killer workouts and often would put on a pair of spikes (my idea of minimalist) and just fly.

rugbymike
09-13-10, 00:35
Rest, Ice, Compression, and Elevation. I've over exerted my calfs a number of times running too far. Ice works great. Zensha Calf Compression Leg Sleeves help out a lot too.

BattleDrill3
09-23-10, 23:57
For the sake of experimentation, I decided to take some time off and see what would happen on my return. This is somewhere in the fourth week (I took close to two weeks off until I couldn't stand it). Not sure the day.

No stretching, besides a quick toe-touch to see how stiff I was. Not bad; off with the shoes, and off to the races. Four 1/2 mile repeats at three minutes each. By the second iteration, stiffness was gone. Form came instinctively; heel to butt motion came without effort, as did leveling the pelvis and leveling the head.

It was raining, and I should have stopped. Again, I couldn't stand not running, and after downing two Five Hour Energy drinks, I'd otherwise be roaming the streets like a deranged crack-head if I didn't. Unfortunately, my hard-won blisters were torn off. (Pics to follow.) The pain of running on raw skin was quite immense the last lap. Kinda wanted to cry. But it's hard to be hard, as they say.

Tightness in the soleus of both legs immediately after; the walk to the car was a sign of what's to come. The probable soreness tomorrow plus the freshly defiled feet will not be awesome. I'll report on that as well. Holla.

Be safe.

bsf
09-25-10, 08:18
I still have not graduated to “hard surface”, but I did run 5k barefoot on wet, packed sand last weekend. That was definitely different than running in the loose stuff. Lower legs, specifically ankles, were a little tender for a couple days.

BattleDrill3
09-29-10, 14:32
There's no such thing as a free lunch, as the saying goes. After a couple weeks on the track and and furtive runs on the golf course, I for some reason thought the soles of my feet would for some reason continue to harden. Quite the opposite. I ran two miles on asphalt the other night, and it was like the first time running on asphalt all over again.

Blisters, blisters, blisters. One of the main points of doing of starting this whole "running barefoot" business (rather than running with VFF's) was to build some super-serious calluses beyond what normally forms after years wandering the earth under a ruck.

Bottom line, stick to the roads, boys. Otherwise, just use Five Fingers. For those on the fence: in all honesty, it sucks at first, and I already have decent calluses to begin with. Get past it, and you'll have some tough feet, like Bruce Willis in Die Hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBVmhsGDha8

(I didn't make the video or put the music to it. Somewhat humorous, however.)

bsf
09-29-10, 21:20
There's no such thing as a free lunch, as the saying goes. After a couple weeks on the track and and furtive runs on the golf course, I for some reason thought the soles of my feet would for some reason continue to harden. Quite the opposite. I ran two miles on asphalt the other night, and it was like the first time running on asphalt all over again.

Blisters, blisters, blisters. One of the main points of doing of starting this whole "running barefoot" business (rather than running with VFF's) was to build some super-serious calluses beyond what normally forms after years wandering the earth under a ruck.

Bottom line, stick to the roads, boys. Otherwise, just use Five Fingers. For those on the fence: in all honesty, it sucks at first, and I already have decent calluses to begin with. Get past it, and you'll have some tough feet, like Bruce Willis in Die Hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBVmhsGDha8

(I didn't make the video or put the music to it. Somewhat humorous, however.)
Heck, I ran in shoes tonight on the track and still got a blister. It is getting colder here, so my barefoot running may be soon coming to an end till next spring.

theblackknight
10-03-10, 11:21
Still going. Still no shoes.

Naxet1959
10-03-10, 16:10
There is a gentleman in Kansas City that runs year round barefoot... I've seen him live and even if there's snow on the ground, no socks or shoes!

theblackknight
10-09-10, 18:55
Got my pair of VFF treks in yesterday soo I can do my barefoot thing during unit pt. These are pimp. Ive had them on all day. They are the grippiest anything Ive ever wore. Going running now.

KEEP GOING

GTF425
10-10-10, 17:46
I'm new to the forum, but I'm currently on AD and I started running barefoot after returning from my recent deployment.

First off, I broke my ankle in a motorcycle accident in July. I had surgery later that month and so far I'm about 3.5 months post-op. I don't run with the VFF's and I'm currently back to running anywhere from 2-4 miles every other day. I honestly do believe that running barefoot is what has helped in my recovery and I'm very satisfied with having made the transition. It took about a month to get used to the change, but it doesn't hurt and in my opinion was one of the best additions I could've made to my PT regime.

My last recorded 2-mile was on Sep 26th and it was a (very) slow 15:34. I'll run another timed 2-mile later and post the difference.

iJDub
10-12-10, 10:49
If you train barefoot (or even with VFF) but when it comes time for a PT test you have to wear shoes...does that pose any issues? Like you were training one set of muscles but then relying on a different set for a test?

littlejerry
02-20-11, 17:18
Time to resurrect this old thread...

I started running barefoot this past winter. I was fairly limited on where I could run since I live in downtown Atlanta(the roads are dirty and littered with glass). I had been running barefoot at my local gym on their indoor track but depending on who happened to be working I would be asked to wear some kind of shoe or refrain from using the equipment/track. I tried running outside and ended up tearing up my feet pretty bad- enough that I didn't want to bother with trying to build calluses. As it became colder I gave up on the barefoot endeavor.

Well this weekend I restarted my foray into barefoot running. I went to REI after seeing that Merrell had released some barefoot shoes:
http://www.merrell.com/US/en/Barefoot_Collection

I was lucky enough to find a pair in my size and I bought them on the spot. They run about a size smaller than I typically wear(I got a 9.5 when I'm usually a 10.5 for New Balance and Asics). I immediately went for a brief run when I got home despite having done a 3 mile run that morning- SUCCESS! I can now run safely and without hassle through the city using "barefoot" form.

The shoes are simply great. I have always struggled with finding both shoes and boots that fit my odd feet. I have flat and borderline wide feet. My toes have felt crushed in nearly all well-fitted shoes I've tried for my adult life so I have become accustomed to buying a half size or more higher than normal. The Merrell has a very generous toe box that doesn't require this.

Now I get to start over with transitioning to barefoot. I woke up today with some SORE calves.

I'm really looking forward to this though. Running just became a lot more fun!

Naxet1959
02-20-11, 21:24
When it really started getting cold, I almost got frostbite on my feet using my Vibram Five Fingers (I had chillbains). So I bought a pair of Nike Frees and was able to log some outdoor running with warmer socks. The Frees are super comfortable and are a great transition shoes to going barefoot.
Since we had some very unseasonably warm weather, I ran 8 this morning in my Five Fingers. It felt good but I have some soreness in my heels (like a blister down deep). This has been my longest run in them so far. Next weekend I hope to go 10 miles: I have a half marathon to run in April and I would like to run it in my Five Fingers...

5cary
03-10-11, 14:46
I have a half marathon to run in April and I would like to run it in my Five Fingers...
My goal as well (a half in KSOs). Right now I've had to take a break because of achilles tendon strain (another week or so). Going VFF has really helped my old worn out knees.

Naxet1959
03-10-11, 18:39
So I ran 7 miles on a treadmill 2 weeks ago with the intent of running 10 miles (it was icy outside) and now sport a 1 1/2 inch by 1 inch blister on the right heel. I had a liner sock on, should have had on the thick wool ones. I'm going now with my Nike Frees. Just using the KSO's for short runs once the blister is over with...