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wild_wild_wes
08-31-10, 21:31
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/08/army-seeks-better-carbine-082810w/

Army wants soldiers to have improved carbine

By Lance M. Bacon - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Aug 30, 2010 5:23:04 EDT

Soldiers, get ready for a better carbine. The Army has launched a dual strategy designed to give you a more accurate, durable and lethal weapon that will be the mainstay for the next 40 years.

The first part of that strategy is to radically overhaul the M4 starting now and give grunts an improved version of the special operations M4A1. Simultaneously, the second part challenges industry to come up with a new carbine that can outperform the M4. The competition opened in early August.

“This is an historic event. We have not done a carbine competition in our lifetimes,” Col. Douglas Tamilio, project manager for soldier weapons, told Army Times. His office is spearheading the M4 Carbine Improvement Program. “We don’t switch rifles and carbines too quickly, and it is not an easy thing.”

The M4 has faced some criticism from soldiers and others who have cited problems with its lethality and reliability, including a 2007 “dust” test in which the M4 performed the worst among four weapons tested, with the greatest number of stoppages.

Tamilio, a career infantry officer, said the weapon has “served the Army extremely well” and touted the 62 improvements made to the M4 in the past 19 years. But, he said, “We can’t sit on our laurels and say M4 is good enough.”

Deadlier weapon
The improvements have begun on thousands of M4s being built now, and thousands more will get conversion kits.

The upgrades will be done in phases. The improvement plan’s first phase essentially distributes an improved M4A1, which is notable for its heavier barrel and automatic fire. The heavier barrel reduces warping and erosion, resulting in better performance and longer life. It also allows for a higher sustained rate of fire.

The Army also is adding ambidextrous controls.

The Army has 12,000 M4s on the production line, and has told manufacturer Colt to turn them into A1s, said Brig. Gen. Peter Fuller, Program Executive Office Soldier.

In addition, 25,000 M4A1s would be purchased beyond existing contracts, as well as roughly 65,000 conversion kits, Tamilio said.

“The Army would like to convert about 150,000 in the near term for infantry brigade combat teams,” he said. The optimal plan would be to convert all the M4s, he added, but funding will be a large factor in that decision.

More changes external to the weapon are also improving its reliability and lethality, Fuller said.

Soldiers will experience fewer jams, thanks to a new magazine that doesn’t allow rounds to move, he said.

And the new M855 A1 ammo provides more stopping power at shorter distances. The older round had to get into a yaw dependency for maximum effect. If it hit the enemy straight, it would punch right through them. The new ammo is not yaw dependent. If it hits the enemy, he is going down.

Many combat vets surveyed in 2006 described how enemy soldiers were shot multiple times but were still able to continue fighting. The survey included 2,600 soldiers who served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

One in five U.S. soldiers polled recommended a more lethal round. The new round is designed to address that.

“It’s not enhanced performance, it’s consistent performance,” Fuller said. “It really performs the way you want a round to perform, and it’s optimized to the M4.”

Better accuracy
The second phase of the M4 improvement program begins this fall and will focus on increasing the M4’s effectiveness and accuracy, with emphasis on the bolt, bolt carrier assembly and the forward rail assembly.

Over time, reliability will degrade with the bolt, as that component provides the weapon’s action. Officials will host an open competition for a new bolt assembly to determine whether different materials and coatings can enhance the bolt. The Army also is interested in “unique design changes” that have arisen within the industry, Tamilio said.

The service also looks to strengthen the forward rail assembly on top of the receiver. This lends stability to the weapon and serves as the mount for weapon attachments, but restricts the barrel movement that is required for accuracy when re-engaging the target. The Army wants to determine whether a free-floating rail is the answer.

Officials also will look to provide a more consistent trigger pull for better control, according to a June Congressional Research Service report.

New operating system
The third phase, focusing on the operating system, will begin in about 18 months, Tamilio said. The goal is to improve the gas system by allowing less gas and dirt in, or replacing it with a conversion kit similar to the HNK16 that would put a piston in the M4.

Both have their benefits and detractors, the colonel said. The piston reduces the number of moving parts and provides better stability, but there is “a little more metal on metal,” which can diminish durability and accelerate fatigue.

A gas-impingement system is far smoother in operation, and supporters say its reduced heat and carbon deposits will decrease malfunctions. But the gas system requires a lot more elbow grease to get it clean.

The 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta, or “Delta Force,” replaced its M4s with the HK416 in 2004, according to the congressional report. That weapon combines the operating characteristics of the M4 with the piston system.

“There’s a lot of dynamics involved,” Fuller said. “When you go to a piston charger, you’re actually driving that bolt down at an angle versus back, so you have to make sure you understand it might not be the same weapon.”

The next carbine
The competition for the Army’s next-generation carbine opened in early August, and the service is looking for the “future Army weapon for any environment,” Fuller said.

The Army’s open, industrywide Individual Carbine Competition was approved Aug. 4 by the Joint Requirements Oversight Council.

No caliber restriction has been placed on a new design. The requirements, instead, are for the most reliable, accurate, durable, easy-to-use and easy-to-maintain weapon out there, Tamilio said.

It will be at least a 500-meter weapon and have a higher incapacitation percentage, meaning if a shot doesn’t kill the enemy, it will put a serious dent in his medical record.

This weapon will be modular and able to carry all the existing attachments soldiers use.

It can have a gas or piston system.

Interchangeable barrel sizes, such as those seen in the SCAR, are not a “must have,” but “certainly won’t be a negative thing,” Tamilio said.

But above all, Fuller wants a weapon that has the soldiers’ approval.

“We really need to figure out lethality from a ‘soldier in the loop’ perspective,” he said. “If you can’t shoot the weapon accurately, it doesn’t matter how lethal it is.”

To meet that goal, Tamilio will release a draft request for proposal late this year. It is a warning order of sorts that will give industry a preliminary idea of what is expected. An industry day will follow in which officials will answer questions and provide clarity.

The official RfP will go out early next year, in the second quarter of fiscal 2011, which begins in January. Manufacturers will have a set time, typically a few months, to respond with their proposed weapons.

Next comes the “extreme, extensive testing” and selection of the weapons, Tamilio said.

During testing, hundreds of thousand of rounds will be fired over 12 to 18 months as weapons are tested to their destruction point. The primary goal is to determine if they meet Army specifications. But evaluators also will know whether a weapon can live up to its manufacturer’s claims.

“If they say it has a barrel life up to 20,000 rounds, we’ll test to that,” Tamilio said.

Weapons will also be tested to see if they maintain accuracy throughout their life cycle — something the military has not tested before, Tamilio said. A weapon typically loses accuracy as it ages.

“This is a huge importance for us,” he said.

Soldiers will be involved in virtually all aspects of this testing, Tamilio said. From the individual to unit, he said the tests will focus on what soldiers really care about: “When he pulls the trigger, it fires in a reliable fashion, and what he aims at, he hits.”

Mixed reviews
Investing in an improved M4 has met some opposition.

Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in April 2007 asked Army leadership why the service planned to spend $375 million on the carbine through fiscal 2009 “without considering newer and possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.” The senator’s letter questioned the M4’s reliability and lethality and called for a “free and open competition” to evaluate alternatives.

Nevertheless, improvements have been recommended from within the service. The Army Infantry Center in a Small Arms Capabilities-Based Assessment in 2008 identified 42 separate ideas for material solutions to address capability gaps. Thirteen solutions called for new or improved munitions, and 10 involved aiming devices, optics or laser designators. Only seven suggested modifying or developing new small arms.

After-action reports from soldiers both praise and criticize the M4’s reliability and lethality. The mixed reviews are reflected in the congressional report:

• A February 2001 U.S. Special Operations Command study said the M4A1 was “fundamentally flawed” and suffered “alarming failures … in operations under the harsh conditions and heavy firing schedules common in [special operations forces] training and operations.”

• An Army report from July 2003 on small arms performance during Operation Iraqi Freedom found the M4 was “by far the preferred individual weapon across the theater of operations.”

• A December 2006 survey requested by Army’s Project Manager for Soldier Weapons and conducted by the Center for Naval Analyses polled 2,600 soldiers who had engaged in combat action in Iraq or Afghanistan. More than half said they never experienced a stoppage in the M4 or M16.

The study found that the frequency of disassembled cleaning did not affect the number of stoppages. The type and amount of lubrication used had little effect on stoppages, though dry lubricant decreased reports for M4 stoppages. Nearly nine in 10 soldiers said they were satisfied with the M4.

• A December 2007 test — resulting from Coburn’s letter — evaluated the M4 against the HK416, the HK XM8 and the FNH SCAR. Each system had 10 weapons on the line, and each fired 6,000 rounds under sandstorm conditions. The XM8 had 127 stoppages, the SCAR had 226 stoppages, the HK416 had 233 stoppages and the M4 had 882 stoppages. The Army later modified that number to 296 stoppages, attributing the difference to discrepancies in the test and scoring.

When you’ll get it
A new weapon could be selected by the end of 2011. How long it would take to field a new weapon would depend on funding. Fielding could start fairly quickly, but will take up to 10 years, Tamilio said.

No cost estimate of producing a new weapon is available from the Army, as the dozens of potential manufacturers have yet to receive specifications and generate the subsequent design.

By Aug. 19, the Army had 41 respondents to its market survey, Tamilio said.

“Industry is waiting for this,” he said. “They are excited about this … and that’s exactly what we want.” :D

How the dual-path strategy unfolds remains to be seen, but it means every soldier should be getting a better carbine.

That’s because there are 1.1 million soldiers, but only 500,000 M4s in the system. If the Army selects a new carbine, it may purchase 1.1 million. But a more likely scenario would see 500,000 purchased for infantry brigade combat teams, and the existing and improved M4s given to support troops to replace their M16s.

If the M4 turns out to be the weapon of choice, then the ICBTs will likely be fitted with the improved M4s, and the existing M4s would again be given to support troops to replace their M16s.

For soldiers “consistently using that M4 and satisfied with that M4, to know the Army is going out there to get you something better … that’s pretty damn exciting,” Tamilio said. “And that’s only going to make you more effective on the battlefield.”

variablebinary
08-31-10, 22:17
Hmm...

If the army gave me an M4 tomorrow, I'd be fine with that.

However, if they said, here's your HK416/SCAR, have fun teaching Muhj, I wouldn't complain about that either.

Personally, I don't think the 2 phases make sense. Just invest in the next platform and save the money. The 2 phase system sounds about as inefficient as the camo trials

pilotguyo540
08-31-10, 22:18
There are some cringing comments made by professionals. Are they letting mall ninja's into army procurement now? This is sad.

120mm
08-31-10, 22:59
Well, with any luck it will be bigger, bulkier, heavier, more complex and less flexible than the M4. With the exact same round.

Eric
08-31-10, 23:12
And the new M855 A1 ammo provides more stopping power at shorter distances. The older round had to get into a yaw dependency for maximum effect. If it hit the enemy straight, it would punch right through them. The new ammo is not yaw dependent. If it hits the enemy, he is going down. :rolleyes:

Belmont31R
09-01-10, 00:28
Well, with any luck it will be bigger, bulkier, heavier, more complex and less flexible than the M4. With the exact same round.



And cost 2-3X as much.


Look at all the new "combat guns".....SCAR, 416, ACR, ect. All in the 2k range. Even the "LEO" price on these guns is significant. Even ordered in the bulk the mil would order them at I could still see the price being around $1200 a pop.

variablebinary
09-01-10, 00:51
And cost 2-3X as much.


Look at all the new "combat guns".....SCAR, 416, ACR, ect. All in the 2k range. Even the "LEO" price on these guns is significant. Even ordered in the bulk the mil would order them at I could still see the price being around $1200 a pop.

Didn't Senator Coburn state the M4 is around $1500 a pop?

I don't see any contractor having a problem making a new weapon for comparable price when the order is for a million units.

kal
09-01-10, 01:03
With the exact same round

Normally I'd say that's fine, but we're not going to be fighting the soviets across the fields of Europe anytime soon. So why stick with the 5.56mm?

We have to look at the largest future threat and develope an infantry cartridge that will be ideal for that environment.

Given the trend in urban combat, it may be time to go back to the STG44.

RyanB
09-01-10, 02:36
Didn't Senator Coburn state the M4 is around $1500 a pop?

I don't see any contractor having a problem making a new weapon for comparable price when the order is for a million units.

When they are $1500 ea. they come in MWS configuration with optic.

ForTehNguyen
09-01-10, 08:50
need to get better mags and more updated training

MarkG
09-01-10, 09:34
Say what...

Both have their benefits and detractors, the colonel said. The piston reduces the number of moving parts and provides better stability, but there is “a little more metal on metal,” which can diminish durability and accelerate fatigue.

A gas-impingement system is far smoother in operation, and supporters say its reduced heat and carbon deposits will decrease malfunctions. But the gas system requires a lot more elbow grease to get it clean.

Garbage ass journalism or an Army Colonel who doesn't have a functional understanding of the M4! :sarcastic:

DMR
09-01-10, 11:07
Say what...

Both have their benefits and detractors, the colonel said. The piston reduces the number of moving parts and provides better stability, but there is “a little more metal on metal,” which can diminish durability and accelerate fatigue.

A gas-impingement system is far smoother in operation, and supporters say its reduced heat and carbon deposits will decrease malfunctions. But the gas system requires a lot more elbow grease to get it clean.

Garbage ass journalism or an Army Colonel who doesn't have a functional understanding of the M4! :sarcastic:

I read that as either being miss quoted or simply miss speaking.

kal
09-01-10, 11:19
How about replacing the m4 upper receiver assemblies with mid length gas system uppers?

kal saves the day.:D

THCDDM4
09-01-10, 11:47
Yet another attempt by an unrealistic govt. to fix a problem that doesn't really exist...

ANd how to fix it; lets spend a lot of money and time...

And more than likely stick with the M4 after they waste millions.

:bad:

SteyrAUG
09-01-10, 13:35
God I hate the government.

You only replace an existing system when an improvement dictates it.

We went from the Garand to the M14 because a detachable magazine rifle with similar capacity and weight became reasonably possible.

We went from the M14 to the M16 because a lighter weight rifle with a select fire option that was controllable became reasonably possible.

We went from the M16 to the M4 because it was a refinement of the existing system.

Putting a M4 in a plastic shell with a piston isn't really the same thing.

Unless there is a design revolution in firearms you don't change things simply because you are bored with it. All the new plastic rifles are just M-16s, AR-18s or FNCs in a new poly shell with a folding stock.

kal
09-01-10, 14:15
All the new aluminum rifles are just M-16s, AR-18s or FNCs in a new monolithic aluminum receiver with a folding stock.

fixed;)

Caeser25
09-01-10, 18:44
An Army report from July 2003 on small arms performance during Operation Iraqi Freedom found the M4 was “by far the preferred individual weapon across the theater of operations.”

I'll bet if you ask the same ? in Afghanistan you'll get the M16A3 or A4.

Why doesn't somebody design an interchangeable upper around a new round like KAC did with thier PDW or for ****s sake, pay KAC to do it.

dookie1481
09-01-10, 18:49
How about replacing the m4 upper receiver assemblies with mid length gas system uppers?

kal saves the day.:D

And what would that do besides cost the taxpayers another $100M or whatever it would cost?

dookie1481
09-01-10, 18:49
God I hate the government.

You only replace an existing system when an improvement dictates it.

We went from the Garand to the M14 because a detachable magazine rifle with similar capacity and weight became reasonably possible.

We went from the M14 to the M16 because a lighter weight rifle with a select fire option that was controllable became reasonably possible.

We went from the M16 to the M4 because it was a refinement of the existing system.

Putting a M4 in a plastic shell with a piston isn't really the same thing.

Unless there is a design revolution in firearms you don't change things simply because you are bored with it. All the new plastic rifles are just M-16s, AR-18s or FNCs in a new poly shell with a folding stock.

Agreed.

dookie1481
09-01-10, 18:53
fixed;)

I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, kal, but again I ask what problem does that solve? If it solves the problem, do a cost/benefit analysis. Could this problem be solved in a cheaper or simpler manner?

I don't think that a mono upper is worth all the money that it would cost to switch them out. Some platforms may necessitate a change like that, but not military-wide.

kal
09-01-10, 20:02
I don't want to seem like I'm picking on you, kal, but again I ask what problem does that solve? If it solves the problem, do a cost/benefit analysis. Could this problem be solved in a cheaper or simpler manner?

I don't think that a mono upper is worth all the money that it would cost to switch them out. Some platforms may necessitate a change like that, but not military-wide.

No you misunderstood. I was just trying to correct SteyrAUG.

He stated that these new rifles designed to replace the M16 were plastic. I disagree based on the fact that major systems that have been advertised as a replacement all use an aluminum upper receiver such as the XCR, ACR, SCAR, etc.


And what would that do besides cost the taxpayers another $100M or whatever it would cost?

Probably nothing. If I can be serious this one time, I'd say the US Army should absolutely hold off until telescopic cased or caseless ammo and systems make it past the prooving grounds.

dookie1481
09-01-10, 20:22
No you misunderstood. I was just trying to correct SteyrAUG.

He stated that these new rifles designed to replace the M16 were plastic. I disagree based on the fact that major systems that have been advertised as a replacement all use an aluminum upper receiver such as the XCR, ACR, SCAR, etc.



Probably nothing. If I can be serious this one time, I'd say the US Army should absolutely hold off until telescopic cased or caseless ammo and systems make it past the prooving grounds.

Oh I gotcha. And I agree with your last statement.

Jay

DMR
09-01-10, 20:26
I'll bet if you ask the same ? in Afghanistan you'll get the M16A3 or A4.
.

From what I've seen the M-4 remains the main choice with having a few other systems like the M-14 EBR availible. We went down the M-16A4 route a few years ago and it didn't realy work out. Hence they went back and had me ask for M-14's which resulted in the EBR.

Afghanistan or Iraq the requests preety much came back the same. Shorter, lighter, EASIER, will trump lots of things when you are humping WAY to much gear weight wise.

wild_wild_wes
09-01-10, 21:29
(sigh) I guess the Army has already forgotten LSAT

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=41217

jaxman7
09-01-10, 21:29
I normally don't like the one liner 'agreed' posts but I completely agree & would love to see PMAGs issued and more up to date training Vickers, Magpul, etc style. I keep thinking of Retreat Hell's own story.


need to get better mags and more updated training

variablebinary
09-01-10, 22:04
FWIW, I don't care what I am issued, as long as it works well in the conditions I am most likely going to encounter while doing the job the army pays me to do (harsh, extended time in the field, prospect of violence 24/7).

I just hope the Army doesnt waste everyone's time. It isn't cheap for companies to design and build prototypes for testing. Look at the SCAR debacle. All that time and energy wasted...

As for the M4, I don't subscribe to the idea that it is the end all, be all; above improvement or reproach. Nothing is perfect and everything can be improved.

pilotguyo540
09-01-10, 23:04
As for the M4, I don't subscribe to the idea that it is the end all, be all; above improvement or reproach. Nothing is perfect and everything can be improved.
I think it would be fool hardy for anyone to say that. The men interviewed strike me s easily dazzled by any 2 bit salesmen that come along. It is quite sad. If there is a better lead slinger out there bring it, but these salesmen get a few talking points and a company credit card to schmooze the brass. It is just sad that it is effective.

500grains
09-01-10, 23:36
We have to look at the largest future threat

CHINA. We need anti-ship, anti-aircraft, and jumbo conventional missiles for land assets (like the 3 gorges dam which, if ruptured, would displace 10 million people and cause massive internal chaos in China, requiring military personnel to deal with, or the people could revolt).

SteyrAUG
09-02-10, 00:26
No you misunderstood. I was just trying to correct SteyrAUG.

He stated that these new rifles designed to replace the M16 were plastic. I disagree based on the fact that major systems that have been advertised as a replacement all use an aluminum upper receiver such as the XCR, ACR, SCAR, etc.




Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of the HK XM8 and G36 rifles which have been promoted as replacements.

kal
09-02-10, 00:45
Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of the HK XM8 and G36 rifles which have been promoted as replacements.

I forgot about the xm8. Probably because I don't see them posted on gunbroker.:)

variablebinary
09-02-10, 15:51
The new weapon selection will also be a very highly political event.

The blue north east will not be happy about losing a fat government contract to a red state in the south. They will lobby hard to ensure the winner stays in their district

Business_Casual
09-02-10, 15:56
I seem to remember a .45 ACP pistol solicitation that didn't turn out so well for the companies that invested in it.

B_C

DMR
09-02-10, 15:57
There are going to be some surprise contenders too.

wild_wild_wes
09-02-10, 20:48
What about Phase 1, conversion to M4A1 configuration? The full-auto makes sense, but I'm not sure about the heavy barrel. The free-floating handguard would be a plus; I wonder if only the KAC URX and the DD M4 RAS II would be the designated contenders, or if this too would be open to industry....

variablebinary
09-02-10, 21:10
What about Phase 1, conversion to M4A1 configuration? The full-auto makes sense, but I'm not sure about the heavy barrel. The free-floating handguard would be a plus; I wonder if only the KAC URX and the DD M4 RAS II would be the designated contenders, or if this too would be open to industry....

Adding a heavy barrel would instantly negate the greatest perk of the M4...It's light.

A prime example being the Colt 6721, which is about a 1.4lbs heavier than the 6921 and about a pound heavier than the 6920

pilotguyo540
09-02-10, 21:15
Adding a heavy barrel would instantly negate the greatest perk of the M4...It's light.

A prime example being the Colt 6721, which is about a 1.4lbs heavier than the 6921 and about a pound heavier than the 6920

The M4A1 will weigh 5 ounces more than the current M4. If I remember right they are just adding meat under the handguard. This was covered in the thread about running the barrels 'till they blow. The idea is that with a little more metal a soldier can't blow his barrel.

Ejh28
09-03-10, 13:21
The new weapon selection will also be a very highly political event.

The blue north east will not be happy about losing a fat government contract to a red state in the south. They will lobby hard to ensure the winner stays in their district

Welcome to any government procurement process.

I agree with the other in this thread that they are trying to solve a problem by throwing money at it. The truth is that we haven't had a breakthrough in light weapons technology that would require a massive reissuing of all the weapons in the current system. The current generation of weapons are getting the job done. While I agree that there are currently better weapon systems out there, the cost of moving to those systems would be huge, and the benefit of them is minimal.

While I doubt that 9/10 liked or had no issues with their M4's is correct, there just isn't a product that would provide enough of an improvement to fully invest in(yet).

But at least they're trying to jumpstart the industry.

ForTehNguyen
09-03-10, 13:26
it would help if they were trained not to use the M4 like a SAW too

JSantoro
09-03-10, 15:03
Don't get me started!

:D

Magic_Salad0892
09-11-10, 03:25
It would be sweet for KAC to get involved.

A heavy barrelled SR-16, would be amazing. In ''intermediate'' configuration.

TehLlama
09-11-10, 16:10
I'd be really impressed to see some fusion designs.

Picture a lightened MRP that runs SR15 barrel extensions and bolts, with integral flip-up sights. Source existing lowers, add MIADs and EMOD/IMOD/SOPMOD Stocks.

Would still be cheaper than any replacement weapon system, could allow us to expend reserves of crappy M855A1 ammo in stateside ranges, and make quick caliber changes to other stuff down the road.

...but this makes too much sense.

kjdoski
09-11-10, 20:19
I have a limited dog in this fight - I carry what they hand me and do the best I can with it.

When I first got to my current assignment, I was handed a Mk18, one of about 20 in our modest armory. Over the course of the following 12 months, I saw three deadline to the point of having to go back to Crane for replacement. My first one would not shoot any more than 150 rounds without starting to choke - could not ONCE get it to fire a basic load in a hard training morning without multiple malfunctions requiring remedial action or greater to get back on line. Had one bolt blow - never did hear back from Crane on what they think caused that failure... After a hard days training, we could always look forward to spending several hours getting them clean again - a joyous occasion.

Now we have Mk16s. About the same weight, not as svelte, but the folding stock is a MAJOR bonus for guys like me who sometimes have to be ready to fight but can't carry any obvious weapon cases. Reliability is off the charts, I once went well over 3,500 in training through mine (most of that in the course of 2,600 in two days), with zero maintenance, zero lubrication, and zero failures. Just finished shooting another 1,800 or so under the same conditions at Mid-South, and this was IMMEDIATELY (two days) after a trip to "the box" with multiple rotary wing trips, no maintenance, and no lube - and no malfunctions. Accuracy, even with the CQB barrels, is SIGNIFICANTLY improved over the Mk18 or M4. Clean up is a dream, wipe the chamber/bolt, punch the bore, and relube. When I took my gas cylinder out to clean after the first 1,000 rounds I'd fired, it took less than 5 minutes to get it back to "factory new" looking.

Having said all that, it's still a 5.56mm carbine - better for what MY team does for a living than the M4/Mk18, but, still a 5.56mm. Thank God we have SOST and/or Mk262 readily available - it really is a confidence builder knowing that your ammunition is likely to be lethal at ranges past 100 meters.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this is the time to divorce ourselves from a marginal cartridge, and the limitations imposed thereby. The 6.8 is an improvement, but not enough of an improvement (IMHO) to be worth retooling the whole DOD. I think there are two possible solutions to this issue:

1. A multi-caliber platform that's easily user-configurable from long barrel 7.62 to CQB or PDW length 5.56 (and all options in-between).

2. A true intermediate cartridge - something accurate and powerful enough that it can reliably anchor a BG out to 500 meters with the average soldier behind it; but that still fires out of a platform that's light enough to hump all day, and handy enough (to include recoil-wise) to manage in CQB. If you can stuff 25 or so rounds into a reasonable magazine, I'd be perfectly happy.

If we're going to do anything besides adopt one of those options, I'm afraid we're just spinning our wheels and wasting our time and money.

Regards,

Kevin

120mm
09-11-10, 21:12
I've said it before, and I'll say it again - this is the time to divorce ourselves from a marginal cartridge, and the limitations imposed thereby. The 6.8 is an improvement, but not enough of an improvement (IMHO) to be worth retooling the whole DOD. I think there are two possible solutions to this issue:

1. A multi-caliber platform that's easily user-configurable from long barrel 7.62 to CQB or PDW length 5.56 (and all options in-between).

2. A true intermediate cartridge - something accurate and powerful enough that it can reliably anchor a BG out to 500 meters with the average soldier behind it; but that still fires out of a platform that's light enough to hump all day, and handy enough (to include recoil-wise) to manage in CQB. If you can stuff 25 or so rounds into a reasonable magazine, I'd be perfectly happy.

If we're going to do anything besides adopt one of those options, I'm afraid we're just spinning our wheels and wasting our time and money.

Regards,

Kevin

I'm not sure what you want is possible, but agree that the ONLY reason to go to another platform is if it does what you call for. Anything else is masturbatory in nature, imo.

Spooky130
09-12-10, 00:14
You guys do realize the Army Times is like the military version of the Enquirer - right? It is even sold at the same strategic location in the stores...

kjdoski
09-12-10, 11:13
I'm not sure what you want is possible, but agree that the ONLY reason to go to another platform is if it does what you call for. Anything else is masturbatory in nature, imo.Couldn't agree more on the masturbatory comment.

However, the first part of my recommendation is not only possible, it's in the final stages of refinement, at least in the Mk17 multi-caliber variant - a base 7.62 rifle that, in a matter of minutes, can be user converted to 5.56. This gives the unit commander the ability to tailor his team's load out based on mission parameters - vehicle movement through an urban area to a CQB target? Kit out most of the guys with short-barreled 5.56s; with a couple of 7.62 CQBs for anti-vehicle work as required. Patrolling out in the flats where the threat is normally at greater distances? Give the majority of the guys standard barrel 7.62s, with your DMs having the longer "DMR" variant barrel...

As far as the second option, there's probably too many variables to easily define it. I'm dreaming of a cartridge in the 7mm-ish range, say pushing a 120 grain tough JHP (for accuracy, of course, not for "dum dum" effect!) around 2800 fps - call it splitting the difference between 6.8 and 7mm-08. With careful case design, I'm betting this cartridge could be built into a magazine that's about 2.75" (again, splits the difference between 5.56 and 7.62), and if the magazine was the same basic length as the current M16 magazine, I can't help but imagine that you'd get at least 25 rounds in the mag.

Weight is very subjective, but, I can tell you that our Mk17s with CQB barrels installed are less than 8 pounds, and, firing full house M80 ammunition, it's controllable enough to put 10 rounds into the A-Zone of an IPSC target in 2.5 seconds at 5 yards if you know how to run the rifle, so I think a reduced load in a similarly weighted rifle would be just as capable of working well in a CQB environment... It's also not at all "too heavy" to carry on extended operations in the worst heat you'd ever want to imagine. I, personally, would gladly carry the extra 2 pounds of rifle for a dramatic improvement in terminal performance...

Anyway, I'm not a cartridge or rifle designer, just an end user with a dream...

Regards,

Kevin

kmrtnsn
09-12-10, 11:35
"a base 7.62 rifle that, in a matter of minutes, can be user converted to 5.56. This gives the unit commander the ability to tailor his team's load out based on mission parameters"

Pure fantasy. One, the logistical train in terms of two ammo calibers and multiple barrels just isn't going to happen. The deployment manta is reduce weight, not increase it. No battalion commander in his right mind is going allow this, he has other things to worry about and the luxury of a multi-caliber rifle is really low on the packing list. Two, swap barrels; swap zeros. that means with every caliber change there is a trip to the range to re-zero optics and irons, the equals lost time and additional ammo expenditures. It sure sounds good on TV or in an advertising brochure but in a practical world it just doesn't work that way.

wild_wild_wes
09-12-10, 12:56
Certainly multi-caliber is okay for SF units, but no way for leg units.

HK45
09-12-10, 16:22
There are some cringing comments made by professionals. Are they letting mall ninja's into army procurement now? This is sad.

Procurement doesn't just decide one day to change or buy a new weapons system. It takes much more for that to happen given the level of disruption change engender.
Any career officer who wants to actually have a career follows the party line on the M16/M4 series and they have since the beginning.
The M4 could stand improvement just like anything else. Or should we have stuck with the original?

pilotguyo540
09-12-10, 18:58
Procurement doesn't just decide one day to change or buy a new weapons system. It takes much more for that to happen given the level of disruption change engender.
Any career officer who wants to actually have a career follows the party line on the M16/M4 series and they have since the beginning.
The M4 could stand improvement just like anything else. Or should we have stuck with the original?

I was in fact referring to comments proposing gas piston systems and M855A1 being the answer. I understand that the platform will be around for a long time because the army moves slowly. By all means improve away. Just be damn sure it is better and not just different.

kmrtnsn
09-12-10, 19:44
I forsee the Marine Corps moving to a new weapon platform and in a corresponding "new" caliber before the army follows suit.

Heavy Metal
09-12-10, 19:51
As far as the second option, there's probably too many variables to easily define it. I'm dreaming of a cartridge in the 7mm-ish range, say pushing a 120 grain tough JHP (for accuracy, of course, not for "dum dum" effect!) around 2800 fps - call it splitting the difference between 6.8 and 7mm-08. With careful case design, I'm betting this cartridge could be built into a magazine that's about 2.75" (again, splits the difference between 5.56 and 7.62), and if the magazine was the same basic length as the current M16 magazine, I can't help but imagine that you'd get at least 25 rounds in the mag.

This in fact, exists. Ask DocGKR for details.