View Full Version : M&P owners- How important is a tactile trigger reset to you?
Hi all,
So Scott and I were at the range testing our reset assist mechanism for the M&P 9/.40/.357 pistols today. We developed the device in response to a few comments about the lack of tactile trigger reset in the M&P platform. We were also doing a video narrative on the project for documentation purposes (I think Scott is going to upload a copy to youtube).
At the end of the day it got me thinking, is there really a market for such a part? How important is the sensation or “click” of trigger reset to the individual shooter?
I wanted to pose the question to you- the owners en-masse to find out if the lack of tactile reset is really an issue of concern, or if it is only in my imagination. I would hate to allocate our resources into an inventory of parts that will not sell.
Please let me know what you think!
-Randy.
i prefer the glock trigger over the M&P because of the stout tactile reset. given the glocks half cock position ie-when the striker is fully cocked it is actually applying pressure to your finger through the trigger, vs the M&P's single action setup, i'm not really sure you could get the same effect in the M&P...
anyway, if you could, i think it would bring some glock shooters over to the M&P camp.
Humans respond quicker to auditory stimulus. I would say that it is very important.
I just wanted to add or rather clarify my position. For the sake of argument, I want the tactile sensation and audible click to be present. I think for a mechanical fire control system such as the M&P/ Glock/ 1911 there is some impact between parts that is generating the audible recognition. The impacting parts also generate some vibration or resonance through the frame which can be detected.
A rather long way of saying that I want both to be markedly detectable.
To the other end, I also believe that if you are running the trigger at speed, you probably won't be able to detect the reset point because your trigger finger is already slightly forward of the reset point as the slide goes to battery. That said, if I am doing precision shooting and am trying to slow down between shots, the sensation or sound of reset gives me a good reference point of when to take up any slack.
Humans respond quicker to auditory stimulus. I would say that it is very important.
i doubt you'd hear it in a firefight. or even just at the range with earpro on. but the tactile click is definitely important.
If you get into a shootout with your firearm, auditory exclusion from your fight/flight response won't allow you to hear an audible reset.
audible, not really, tactile, yes.
We were talking about this at class over the weekend. I really prefer the tactile feedback of most other guns. As much as I love the M&P I feel they really did wrong with this.
The amusing thing is that Mr. Hackathorn told us that Smith did this intentionally after consulting with some police officers. :confused:
I have seriously considered purchasing an M&P 9/45 to carry on duty.
One of the reasons that have prevented me from switching is the sloppy trigger pull/ reset and the auditory/tactile click. Having a deparment issued Glock 17, I have grown accustomed to the click you are referring to. As skyugo mentioned, if the auditory/tactile is detectable I would transfer over to the M&P.
It is noticeable that is for sure. Although I didn't realize what was wrong originally I knew something was off. I just wasn't experienced enough to identify it myself. LOL.
I could care less about it clicking. I would like to have it reset just a hair more forceful than it does with the DCAEK installed.
I was in desire of more of a tactile reset so I tweeked my trigger bar and that helped a bit. I def understand that 'in the heat' you won't really hear the reset but you will hear it when you train and the idea is that 'in the heat' you will resort to your training. If you were to offer a product that offered a respectable increase in reset, I would be interested.
I went back to Glock's even after getting pretty darn good at doing trigger jobs on the M&P's mostly do to the weak reset (that and striker breakages and extractor headaches), their triggers can be made to rival 1911's fairly easily with the right sear reshape (no disrespect meant, but even better than what most guys get with your drop-in stuff), thing is, even with bending the trigger-bar inward towards the sear I was only able to get the reset the smallest amount better... like has been said I'm of the opinion that the M&P's are more of a single-action than a safe-action/DAO like a Glock (on a side note I have no idea how they are allowed in and considered fair up against Glock's and DAO's in SSP in IDPA, especially when XD's are stuck in ESP but that's another story for another day), so I don't see how it could be done without adding a gizmo of some sort.
IMO, it's a short-stroke/trigger-freeze thing... On a Glock the trigger resets itself for you, you feel it without any doubt, and as long as you leave your finger there you're prepped for your next shot. On M&P's I end up short-stroking them often, and other times keeping the trigger prepped on them without letting off and giving them a jerk or weird pull on tough shots can be tricky... their triggers can be made to break beautifully but the reset is just another story, for guys like myself it's annoying...
It's feel-thing, I could care less about hearing a click or not, if you can feel it you don't need to hear it.
IMO, if you can fix it, they will come.
The amusing thing is that Mr. Hackathorn told us that Smith did this intentionally after consulting with some police officers. :confused:
That IS AMUSING!!!! But he is one of our oracles.
I put 2400 rds through a M&P Pro 9 - coming from many years of near exclusive Glock shooting. I thought the reset might be a big deal but after a couple boxes of ammo, for the next 2K plus - vast majority fired in various speed oriented drills, I never had a problem with it.
I'd prefer a strong reset a la Glock (Gen 4 is extremely strong IMO) but if the reset is short, whether I feel it or not is probably not that big a deal t me. When I'm on a timer or in a match, I'm focused on targets and sights and I'm not aware of catching my Glock reset even as strong as it is.
So sometimes what I want and what I really need are not the exactly the same. I think short is functionally an advantage. Feeling it in the heat of competition (speaking for myself) a luxury.
It's nice to have, but not really a necessity for me. Having come from a Glock, where the reset sounds like someone clicking their fingers, the reset on the M&P is a lot less audible (even with the DCAEK installed), but still tactile.
TwoSqueeze
09-02-10, 07:52
The reset on the M&P, although much weaker than the Glock, has not been a problem for me. I have no interest in hearing a click to define reset because, as stated earlier, I don't believe that you would be able to hear it when it mattered. I wouldn't mind a tad more tactile input though.
-TS
John_Wayne777
09-02-10, 07:54
My 2 cents:
I think a lot of the complaints about reset exist because of Glock shooters. There are a lot of people out there who have cut their pistol shooting teeth on the Glock trigger and they've come to define that trigger as the trigger and every other gun they pick up gets compared to it. Thus they pick up a gun and try the trigger and immediately get that baby-eating-strained-peas yuk face because Lois, this is NOT my batman glass....erm...Glock.
Because of that, I think complaints about reset are somewhat overblown. Few other pistols on the market have the sproingy, ultra-clicky reset of a Glock, but that doesn't seem to get brought up much either because a lot of people have limited experience with other handguns or because they just don't think about those pistols in comparison to a Glock like they do with the M&P. I also think that the reset complaints get to be a bit groupthinky at times...as in somebody mentions it and it gets parroted around and around and around until I'm hearing in the gunstore trying to buy an M&P and I'm hearing word for word comments I read in a thread on ARFCOM a couple of days before.
...now that's not to say that people are wrong for having trigger preferences. If they have done most of their learning on a Glock trigger and want to keep that Glock feel because that's what they are used to, it's fine by me. I just don't think it should be morphed into a requirement that every trigger on the planet must feel like a Glock trigger or the gun isn't suitable for use.
Now all of that being said:
How important is the sensation or audible “click” of trigger reset to the individual shooter?
If the person learned to shoot on a Glock...and by "learned to shoot" I mean someone who has done most of their formal training on a Glock...then that sproingy, super-clicky reset is probably going to be very important to them.
If they have been shooting other guns, it probably won't be as important to them, although they may still welcome it.
Personally speaking, I learned to reset the M&P trigger the same way I learned to reset the Glock trigger...with dryfire practice at home. With a stock M&P and the trademark anemic reset of a stock TRS I can still manipulate the trigger FAR faster than I can actually intelligently direct the bullets into a target. The M&P's reset, even on a stock gun, isn't an obstacle for me. As long as the reset is reasonably fast, I can find the reset point and run with it. I've got 6 M&P's right now and 5 different trigger configurations on those M&P's currently that range from bone stock to a full custom trigger job to Apex'd guns. Some have a more tactile reset than others. All save two have Massachussetts TRS in them because I like a little more resistance in the takeup and because it makes the trigger reset faster, making a short-stroke very unlikely even if I'm moving my trigger finger at barely-on-the-berm speed.
Having owned and shot M&P's for years, I see no compelling need for such an item.
But:
is there really a market for such a part?
Probably. While there is no compelling need for such a device, many M&P owners may prefer the feel of a sproingy, ultra-clicky reset. Assuming the device is priced reasonably and that it's relatively easy to install, you might find a market among them. You may also find a market among those who pine for the feel of a Glock trigger when they shoot an M&P. I've talked with several individuals who love everything about the M&P better than their Glock except the trigger reset. If they could spend 30-50 bucks and 15 minutes fixing that, they'd probably be very happy individuals. If it costs much more than that or has installation that would test the patience of Job, it's unlikely you'll sell many.
If you stick to more or less the model you've established with your other parts, you'll probably sell a fair number of them...at least until S&W figures out what you're doing and rips off the idea. :D
willowofwisp
09-02-10, 08:13
I would love to see an audible tactile reset..i have a sear that a local machinist produces in my m&p and it makes a nice click noise but still not that of a glock
Jay Cunningham
09-02-10, 08:16
My 2 cents:
More like 5 by the looks of it...
I'd be very interested..I have DCAEK's in both of my M&P's and would welcome a stronger reset..I think it would be a huge improvement...
P.S. I'd be willing to test them for you...:D
My finger just seems to "know" where the reset is, click or no click.
Shoot more, think less.
I agree with John Wayne.
This is not a Glock. If you want a Glock IMHO, go buy one.
For taking my time and just plinking, more of a tactile reset would be nice, but not a must have. As for an audible one... Useless, for me anyway. Once I get dialed in to a weapon, I just know where the reset is. If anything, the feel of a reset is enough. If you are shooting on the move and/or in a fight, you won't hear it anyway.
The DCAEK is perfect, AS IS. Thank you for making it.
MarshallDodge
09-02-10, 09:15
Being a 1911 shooter, I would like the reset to be shorter on the M&P and the Apex kits seem to help with this. I have not had the opportunity to try the DCAEK kit yet.
Feeling the reset is importantant to some but after many years of just getting to know the gun I carry has proved more beneficial to me.
I've talked with several individuals who love everything about the M&P better than their Glock except the trigger reset. If they could spend 30-50 bucks and 15 minutes fixing that, they'd probably be very happy individuals. If it costs much more than that or has installation that would test the patience of Job, it's unlikely you'll sell many.
If you stick to more or less the model you've established with your other parts, you'll probably sell a fair number of them...at least until S&W figures out what you're doing and rips off the idea. :D
If we go ahead with the project, it should be around the $20.00 mark and while the prototype took a few hours to make, it took roughly 3 minutes to install. I wanted to make sure the kit is as easy to install as our sear.
All I can say about Smith is that at least we have their attention... :p
audible, not really, tactile, yes.
Bingo, and for any handgun. And it doesn't have to be hard, so much as it is distinct from the rest of the trigger movement.
Every M4/analogue and other rifle I've ever shot has a distinct reset, and it helps. You can feel it and it's unmistakable, like that final thud you can feel that tells you your magazine just went dry. I personally like having my rifle and pistol triggers feel more or less the same, with the difference being simply weight of pull.
Hearing a click on reset....there's a serious logic disconnect, there. That's a result or a by-product, not a practical goal.
I prefer the tactile reset on the Glock. With the Gen. 4 upgrades, I'm moving away from the M&P.
If we go ahead with the project, it should be around the $20.00 mark and while the prototype took a few hours to make, it took roughly 3 minutes to install. I wanted to make sure the kit is as easy to install as our sear.
All I can say about Smith is that at least we have their attention... :p
At a $20 price point, That really has my attention, the beauty of it is, If I don't like it, I can always remove it.. I see it as just another option..
As a long time glock shooter (1991), the lack of an audible and tactile reset has keep me from embracing the M&P platform. I really wanted to buy a .45 this year for my 45th birthday. The longer reset and lack of a glock like trigger made me pass on the M&P and go with the G21SF.
For my money, if the platform had a "glock" trigger with the existing frame mounted safety/superior ergos, I would by a .40 cal tomorrow. If it worked like I think it would, I would probably convert to the platform lock, stock and barrel. ( i.e. buy another .40, a couple of 9s and a .45).
As others have said, if you are new to the platform, you do not know what you do not know such that it is likely fine right out of the box even without the great APEX stuff.
YMMV greatly.
SWATcop556
09-02-10, 10:53
I've carried Glocks for most of my professional career and only recently began carrying the M&P. My complaints with the stock trigger had less to do with the reset and more with the crunchy take up and shitty break. The Apex DCAEK fixed those issues for me. I would mind a more tactile forceful reset but it's nit a deal breaker for me. The clicky noise couldn't matter less for me.
From the replies it seems that many would not mind a more positive reset. If it is there, it's a plus, but not necessary.
I need to rephrase my original post. The audible aspect of the reset is a secondary artifact of the more positive/tactile reset. It is also only noticeable during dry fire.
-Randy
I am also hoping someone will point the engineers at Smith to this thread.
The M&P is the only gun I have in the safe (I think) that doesn't have a definitive tactile reset. All of my Glocks, 1911's, and H&K's do and I miss it terribly on the M&P.
GermanSynergy
09-02-10, 11:17
Mr. Lee,
Thank you and the other folks at Apex for making the products that you do.
ALL of my M&P handguns feature the DCAEK, and for me, given the nature of the M&P's trigger reset out of the box, it's almost a must for me.
As a die hard Glock shooter for the better part of a decade, I like having a strong reset, and prefer a tactile feel.
A slight audible "click" is value added, but not mandatory, IMHO.
I fully concur with what John_Wayne777, JSantoro, and SWATcop1911 have written above. Even though I have only been shooting M&P's a relatively short amount of time, I am already shooting them nearly as well as the 1911's I've used for 25 years and better than the Glocks I've shot for 20 years. The recent stock M&P triggers work OK; the APEX duty kits make them superb. I could care less about hearing reset, however a short, fast, positive tactile reset is definitely a nice feature.
It's not just that I learned to shoot handgun with a Glock that I like the reset. I shoot an AR quite a bit as well and it also has a very distinct reset.
I also don't like two stage triggers on my carbines (precision rifle yes, carbine no) because the reset is "off" and kicks my trigger finger forward.
I can learn to shoot a different trigger but prefer a very distinct reset.
John_Wayne777
09-02-10, 12:21
More like 5 by the looks of it...
http://www.thenile.com.au/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/haterade-logo.jpg
If we go ahead with the project, it should be around the $20.00 mark and while the prototype took a few hours to make, it took roughly 3 minutes to install. I wanted to make sure the kit is as easy to install as our sear.
...then I'll take 4.
I had the chance to try a gun with just the sear and usb and it felt great as is. An audible click isn't a big deal to me as long as you can feel the reset.
My 2 cents:
I think a lot of the complaints about reset exist because of Glock shooters. There are a lot of people out there who have cut their pistol shooting teeth on the Glock trigger and they've come to define that trigger as the trigger and every other gun they pick up gets compared to it. Thus they pick up a gun and try the trigger and immediately get that baby-eating-strained-peas yuk face because Lois, this is NOT my batman glass....erm...Glock.
Because of that, I think complaints about reset are somewhat overblown. Few other pistols on the market have the sproingy, ultra-clicky reset of a Glock, but that doesn't seem to get brought up much either because a lot of people have limited experience with other handguns or because they just don't think about those pistols in comparison to a Glock like they do with the M&P. I also think that the reset complaints get to be a bit groupthinky at times...as in somebody mentions it and it gets parroted around and around and around until I'm hearing in the gunstore trying to buy an M&P and I'm hearing word for word comments I read in a thread on ARFCOM a couple of days before.
For me it's not so much that I want that ultra sproingy reset, it's that I can and have short stroked the trigger in very fast shooting scenarios. For example, one of the stages of fire in my qualification was 2 shots in 1 second from the low ready position. I short stroked it then while trying to maintain good trigger discipline. I also was able to short stroke it while shooting 3 shots in 4 seconds at 7 yards from the holster. Thankfully when that happened I always had enough time to reset and fire again.
My problem is when the stock trigger rebound spring is compressed back to the normal closed position and there is virtually ZERO resistence, the trigger is not quite reset. Maybe I'm just retarded, but when I'm getting yelled at by instructors, and I have but 1 second to fire two rounds, I don't have time to find the reset...I want it to just be there when the trigger return spring tension goes from noticeable to not noticeable.
If we go ahead with the project, it should be around the $20.00 mark and while the prototype took a few hours to make, it took roughly 3 minutes to install. I wanted to make sure the kit is as easy to install as our sear.
All I can say about Smith is that at least we have their attention... :p
hahaha, good for you...
now, first of all, the question was about tactile reset. then it morphed into audible. I'm responding to tactile reset, I can't even hear a Glock's reset with earpro on.
is it absolutely essential? some people think so.
would most people want it? I'd bet so. I do.
is there a market? definitely...
Thomas M-4
09-02-10, 13:45
You can get a M&P to reset very Glock like. The sear has to be just right to do it though just a hair to much and the very glock like reset is gone by by buy new sear. Corresponded to Dan Burwell on the subject seems that every M&P have a slightly different sweet spot on the sear do to production variances.
I haven't tried to apex I wonder how close it would come to custom gunsmithed one?
Randy - If you make it, I'm buying it. :D
I have the DCAEK on my M&P compact and I was taught to shoot on the Glock platform, and as others have stated, I wouldn't mind a good tactile reset, but it's not a must. I've run enough rounds through my gun to know where the reset is and I don't think I'd actually ever hear the audible reset. Whether I bought the part would depend on the price point, but since it's one of your pieces...I'd probably buy one ha. :p
I busted out my 10 year old G22 after months of trying to master the M&P. WOW! I can shoot really well again. There's no way I shoot M&P better than Glock. I don't shoot the M&P BAD.... I just have to work harder to shoot it good.
As others have said. I couldn't care less about a reset, the crappy take up and break are the bummer.
Not a big deal for me, but I wouldn't mind a clickity-reset and I'd pay $20 for it from a company like Apex.
I just got my first M&P this past Monday. I've dry fired it a good bit and the reset isn't bad but I would like it to be more distinct. Grant installed the DCAEK and polished it. The one thing I don't like at all is the take up on the first shot. It feels like I'm having to squeeze it about a foot before the first round goes off. Personally I would love for that take up to dissappear.
No big deal here...If you shoot enough there should be no thought or feel for the reset, it should be second nature to know how far to let out to reset the trigger for the next trigger pull. For me, I would rather buy a product that reduces the pre-travel which would make the APEX an almost perfect drop-in trigger job...but that's me...
RogerinTPA
09-02-10, 17:59
Randy, to the average gun owner, probably not much. Quite frankly, I doubt they would know the difference or why it was important.
To the folks on this forum who run their M&Ps and other weapons hard, YES, it will make a difference. Although I have out fitted all of my M&Ps with the very outstanding Apex Sear, I would gladly refit every one with your new tactile reset kit.
Thanks for your input guys, and please keep it coming...
As a sidenote, I am working on a forward set sear and trigger pad for you guys who want to limit take up. But that's another story and future post...
-Randy
Randy,
I can echo what some others have already said. Fifteen of my 23 years (to date; I'm not done yet!) as a professional gun-toter were spent with Glocks. My complaint with the M&P, and what kept me away from them for a few years, was that I couldn't get them to "run" like I could a Glock. What prevented me from getting them to run was the trigger. Specifically, the length and lack of a reset that was distinctive enough for me to reference and know I was able to pull the trigger again. My finger was constantly outrunning the trigger.
I installed an Apex sear in my M&P 9 and, although it cleaned up the trigger nicely, it still didn't provide a forceful enough reset. I recently installed the DCAEK in my M&P .45 and, to use a technical term, it's the cat's ass! DCAEK's will be going into the rest of my M&P's.
Contrary to your earlier post, I hope that the engineers at S&W don't pick up on this (unless they license it from you for an obscene amount of money). I think you deserve to make a fortune by doing what they apparently couldn't do to begin with: make a good trigger for the M&P.
Randy,...
Contrary to your earlier post, I hope that the engineers at S&W don't pick up on this (unless they license it from you for an obscene amount of money). I think you deserve to make a fortune by doing what they apparently couldn't do to begin with: make a good trigger for the M&P.
I concur, I think they should be ashamed that the trigger was so poor and that you folks have done such a fine job of re-engineering.
I posted my desire for a firmer reset at MP-Pistol.com.
Buckaroo
Gutshot John
09-02-10, 20:50
Not at all important. Trying to "feel" the a short-trigger reset often causes me to short-stroke the trigger whether Glock or M&P.
I prefer to let it come all the way off.
My bigger complaint was the take-up. The Apex kit fixed that.
Firmer reset? Sign me up.
NCSt8man1999
09-02-10, 20:58
I agree whole heartedly with the posts on here. I love the new trigger that I put in my compact. If there was a negative, a stronger reset would be a benefit. I do not know if it would actually improve the shooting or be a mental pacifier. Still shot two hundreds to qualify out of the box with the M&P .357c w/the DCAEK in it.
With that said, with several thousand rounds through the full size duty gun, it is shooting much better now on its own accord without any modifications. Not distinct, but it has definitely smoothed out over time.
I would definitely pay $20 for a better reset.
Thanks guys,
I will proceed with the project. If the parts make the gun more enjoyable, more familiar, or in some way adds to the shootability, I will be happy.
I did notice today that at the point of trigger reset the parts tend to propel the trigger and your finger to about .010" forward of the reset point. It makes for a very distinct reset.
-Randy
It looks like you'll be getting more money from me. How soon do you expect it to be ready?
It looks like you'll be getting more money from me. How soon do you expect it to be ready?
It looks like the 9/.40/.357 version should be ready around Oct.1 maybe sooner.
The .45 and thumb safety variants will take longer to design due to the differences in sear housing blocks.
SWATcop556
09-03-10, 03:57
It looks like the 9/.40/.357 version should be ready around Oct.1 maybe sooner.
The .45 and thumb safety variants will take longer to design due to the differences in sear housing blocks.
My new duty guns just smiled. :dance3:
For what you guys at Apex brought to the table for the M&P platform, S&W owes you guys some $$$. It was your parts that finally made the M&P a viable option for me for a duty pistol. Thank you for all of your hard work.
It's also very nice to be able to get information and receive feedback from the source. Thank you for making yourself available on the forums.
Thanks SWATcop,
Being on the forum has been invaluable. The feedback and input you and the others provide helps us to design new products, improve existing ones and hopefully help the M&P along in its evolution.
Oh, and helps Smith sell another gun or two.
-Randy
My 2 cents:
I think a lot of the complaints about reset exist because of Glock shooters. There are a lot of people out there who have cut their pistol shooting teeth on the Glock trigger and they've come to define that trigger as the trigger and every other gun they pick up gets compared to it. Thus they pick up a gun and try the trigger and immediately get that baby-eating-strained-peas yuk face because Lois, this is NOT my batman glass....erm...Glock.
Because of that, I think complaints about reset are somewhat overblown. Few other pistols on the market have the sproingy, ultra-clicky reset of a Glock, but that doesn't seem to get brought up much either because a lot of people have limited experience with other handguns or because they just don't think about those pistols in comparison to a Glock like they do with the M&P. I also think that the reset complaints get to be a bit groupthinky at times...as in somebody mentions it and it gets parroted around and around and around until I'm hearing in the gunstore trying to buy an M&P and I'm hearing word for word comments I read in a thread on ARFCOM a couple of days before.
...now that's not to say that people are wrong for having trigger preferences. If they have done most of their learning on a Glock trigger and want to keep that Glock feel because that's what they are used to, it's fine by me. I just don't think it should be morphed into a requirement that every trigger on the planet must feel like a Glock trigger or the gun isn't suitable for use.
Now all of that being said:
If the person learned to shoot on a Glock...and by "learned to shoot" I mean someone who has done most of their formal training on a Glock...then that sproingy, super-clicky reset is probably going to be very important to them.
If they have been shooting other guns, it probably won't be as important to them, although they may still welcome it.
Personally speaking, I learned to reset the M&P trigger the same way I learned to reset the Glock trigger...with dryfire practice at home. With a stock M&P and the trademark anemic reset of a stock TRS I can still manipulate the trigger FAR faster than I can actually intelligently direct the bullets into a target. The M&P's reset, even on a stock gun, isn't an obstacle for me. As long as the reset is reasonably fast, I can find the reset point and run with it. I've got 6 M&P's right now and 5 different trigger configurations on those M&P's currently that range from bone stock to a full custom trigger job to Apex'd guns. Some have a more tactile reset than others. All save two have Massachussetts TRS in them because I like a little more resistance in the takeup and because it makes the trigger reset faster, making a short-stroke very unlikely even if I'm moving my trigger finger at barely-on-the-berm speed.
Having owned and shot M&P's for years, I see no compelling need for such an item.
But:
Probably. While there is no compelling need for such a device, many M&P owners may prefer the feel of a sproingy, ultra-clicky reset. Assuming the device is priced reasonably and that it's relatively easy to install, you might find a market among them. You may also find a market among those who pine for the feel of a Glock trigger when they shoot an M&P. I've talked with several individuals who love everything about the M&P better than their Glock except the trigger reset. If they could spend 30-50 bucks and 15 minutes fixing that, they'd probably be very happy individuals. If it costs much more than that or has installation that would test the patience of Job, it's unlikely you'll sell many.
If you stick to more or less the model you've established with your other parts, you'll probably sell a fair number of them...at least until S&W figures out what you're doing and rips off the idea. :D
Really good post. I fully agree. I find it doesn't take much shooting with any pistol to learn where the reset is, no matter how vague the tactile indication might be (I shoot a Hi-Power really well, in spite of its phantom reset). That said, I think it's pretty obvious there's a market for this product. The M&P already has the ergonomic MANY Glockophiles long for, and allowing them to have the zOMG!!! reset they're used to will remove their last line of objection.
As long as the reliablility of the pistol is not compromised by the reset mechanism, then i could see myself adding an M&P9 to my stable.
30 cal slut
09-03-10, 12:28
My new duty guns just smiled. :dance3:
My pocket book just :fie:
Randy, just adding another data point for you.
Tactile - yes.
Auditory - I'm gonna guess (based on my own experience) it probably won't be noticeable when you have a full-on adrenaline dump and auditory exclusion kicks in.
I had a M&P that I purchased shortly after they were released. I thought it was a nice gun, but having shot Glocks for years, I could not warm up to it. I sold it.
My single biggest complaint about it was the trigger, and the primary issue I had was the indistinct reset.
If you make something that makes the reset more Glock-like (in feel, the audible click is not necessary for me) there will be a newly purchased M&P in my future!
As long as the reliablility of the pistol is not compromised by the reset mechanism, then i could see myself adding an M&P9 to my stable.
I think you will be surprised at how the system performs. The function is simple, but the actual design of the part and how it interacts is decidedly unique.
If the mechanism compromised the integrity of the pistol, accelerated wear of the factory parts or potentially cause the gun to catastrophically fail, I could not in good conscience put the Apex name on it.
I think you will be surprised at how the system performs. The function is simple, but the actual design of the part and how it interacts is decidedly unique.
If the mechanism compromised the integrity of the pistol, accelerated wear of the factory parts or potentially cause the gun to catastrophically fail, I could not in good conscience put the Apex name on it.
Good to know.
[QUOTE=John_Wayne777;747934]
I can't wait to hear someone say "sproingy, ultra-clicky" at the gun store.
John_Wayne777
09-03-10, 16:06
They will be household words within a year.
You heard it here first, folks.
Sorry if this has been answered and I missed it...
When released will the new reset mechanism be offered as part of the DCAEK?
willowofwisp
09-03-10, 21:06
Sorry if this has been answered and I missed it...
When released will the new reset mechanism be offered as part of the DCAEK?
Randy said about a month so sometime in October I assume
Good question. We haven't thought that far ahead. My first thought is it should be sold independently of the action enhancement kits.
From some of the posts, it sounds like it should not be. Some do not feel it is necessary, at least that is the impression I get from reading through the threads.
Good question. We haven't thought that far ahead. My first thought is it should be sold independently of the action enhancement kits.
From some of the posts, it sounds like it should not be. Some do not feel it is necessary, at least that is the impression I get from reading through the threads.
I suppose it doesn't matter either way now that I think about it...
I need two DCAEKs I was thinking about ordering this week... But I'll probably wait on the reset item anyway. One order and install everything at the same time.
Maybe have it as an option?
Do these sorts of innovations get performance tested over high volume cycles to simulate extended use? That may not be the norm for items such as this.
Sounds like you've sold a few already. A couple good reviews and it'll go viral. :D
Randy when will you release the one for the M&P with thumb safety? It will work in harmony with the DCAEK kit, right?
You also mentioned that you are working on a part for shorter take-up right? Any inside information on that?
Do these sorts of innovations get performance tested over high volume cycles to simulate extended use? That may not be the norm for items such as this.
Sounds like you've sold a few already. A couple good reviews and it'll go viral. :D
In this case, I had to ask myself "can the part fail, and if so will it result in catastrophic failure that could result in loss of life?" Because we are introducing parts that were not designed by the manufacturer, the question has to be asked. The parts are being installed into a firearm that by design has no mechanism to accomplish what these parts are intended to achieve.
I had to assume that the reset assist WOULD fail. From there I designed the part in such a way that IF it did fail the breakage would not interfere with the normal function of the gun. That was the first goal.
From there, service life and wear effects are taken into account. Materials and hardness of other interacting parts are considered. I made the prototype out of mild steel because it is softer than the production part. It accelerates wear patterns on the part itself and allows me to monitor the areas of high stress. We have been dry firing, live firing and tearing the gun apart for the past two days. For as much dry fire cycling we have done, the part shows virtually no wear. This means that the parts are interacting with the rest of the trigger group as I had intended. Now it is a matter of cycling the pre-production version at least 100,000 times in each of 3 guns....
It will be thoroughly tested before it is available.
-Randy
In this case, I had to ask myself "can the part fail, and if so will it result in catastrophic failure that could result in loss of life?" Because we are introducing parts that were not designed by the manufacturer, the question has to be asked. The parts are being installed into a firearm that by design has no mechanism to accomplish what these parts are intended to achieve.
I had to assume that the reset assist WOULD fail. From there I designed the part in such a way that IF it did fail the breakage would not interfere with the normal function of the gun. That was the first goal.
From there, service life and wear effects are taken into account. Materials and hardness of other interacting parts are considered. I made the prototype out of mild steel because it is softer than the production part. It accelerates wear patterns on the part itself and allows me to monitor the areas of high stress. We have been dry firing, live firing and tearing the gun apart for the past two days. For as much dry fire cycling we have done, the part shows virtually no wear. This means that the parts are interacting with the rest of the trigger group as I had intended. Now it is a matter of cycling the pre-production version at least 100,000 times in each of 3 guns....
It will be thoroughly tested before it is available.
-Randy
It looks like the 9/.40/.357 version should be ready around Oct.1 maybe sooner.
The .45 and thumb safety variants will take longer to design due to the differences in sear housing blocks.
Fantastic. Been dawdling on moving to M&P's but you seem to be killing any concern I had.
SWATcop556
09-04-10, 07:22
Sounds like you have another great part coming out Randy. I know I'll be picking one up.
I think it should be offered seperate from the DCAEK do to the fact that most of the shooters who use the DCAEK feel that it was enough of an upgrade that the more forceful reset became a moot point (I know I'm one of those shooters). However if it improves the M&P even more for me then I will add one to all of my pistols.
I'm a big believer that what works for one will not work for others so I test one rather than by six for all of my pistols "sight unseen."
If it follows in the tradition of the Apex line then I think you will have another winner on you hand. Keep up the good work.
I'm also very interested in what you have in the works to remove some of the take up in the trigger. If I still had only one gripe with the M&P line it would be that. Growing up shooting and carrying 1911's for so long, I prefer that shorter take up. Keep us in the loop.
In this case, I had to ask myself "can the part fail, and if so will it result in catastrophic failure that could result in loss of life?" Because we are introducing parts that were not designed by the manufacturer, the question has to be asked. The parts are being installed into a firearm that by design has no mechanism to accomplish what these parts are intended to achieve.
I had to assume that the reset assist WOULD fail. From there I designed the part in such a way that IF it did fail the breakage would not interfere with the normal function of the gun. That was the first goal.
From there, service life and wear effects are taken into account. Materials and hardness of other interacting parts are considered. I made the prototype out of mild steel because it is softer than the production part. It accelerates wear patterns on the part itself and allows me to monitor the areas of high stress. We have been dry firing, live firing and tearing the gun apart for the past two days. For as much dry fire cycling we have done, the part shows virtually no wear. This means that the parts are interacting with the rest of the trigger group as I had intended. Now it is a matter of cycling the pre-production version at least 100,000 times in each of 3 guns....
It will be thoroughly tested before it is available.
-Randy
I'm consistently impressed with the persistent, thorough, and meticulous approach taken by community and industry members like you, in the effort to prove, and IMprove, the M&P pistol. I'm not a super-avid adherent of Clickitivism, but I'll certainly be in for at least two of these, if for no other reason than that I will KNOW the difference it makes. I have high confidence that your product will be of high quality, and that it will sell well. Bring it on, and keep it up!
Thanks again guys.
I try to shut up and listen once in a while. I get a lot of needed information from your observations and criticisms. It helps me make better parts.
-Randy
In this case, I had to ask myself "can the part fail, and if so will it result in catastrophic failure that could result in loss of life?" Because we are introducing parts that were not designed by the manufacturer, the question has to be asked. The parts are being installed into a firearm that by design has no mechanism to accomplish what these parts are intended to achieve.
I had to assume that the reset assist WOULD fail. From there I designed the part in such a way that IF it did fail the breakage would not interfere with the normal function of the gun. That was the first goal.
From there, service life and wear effects are taken into account. Materials and hardness of other interacting parts are considered. I made the prototype out of mild steel because it is softer than the production part. It accelerates wear patterns on the part itself and allows me to monitor the areas of high stress. We have been dry firing, live firing and tearing the gun apart for the past two days. For as much dry fire cycling we have done, the part shows virtually no wear. This means that the parts are interacting with the rest of the trigger group as I had intended. Now it is a matter of cycling the pre-production version at least 100,000 times in each of 3 guns....
It will be thoroughly tested before it is available.
-Randy
Nice. Very impressive Randy Lee!
Alpha Sierra
09-04-10, 11:45
In this case, I had to ask myself "can the part fail, and if so will it result in catastrophic failure that could result in loss of life?" Because we are introducing parts that were not designed by the manufacturer, the question has to be asked. The parts are being installed into a firearm that by design has no mechanism to accomplish what these parts are intended to achieve.
I had to assume that the reset assist WOULD fail. From there I designed the part in such a way that IF it did fail the breakage would not interfere with the normal function of the gun. That was the first goal.
From there, service life and wear effects are taken into account. Materials and hardness of other interacting parts are considered. I made the prototype out of mild steel because it is softer than the production part. It accelerates wear patterns on the part itself and allows me to monitor the areas of high stress. We have been dry firing, live firing and tearing the gun apart for the past two days. For as much dry fire cycling we have done, the part shows virtually no wear. This means that the parts are interacting with the rest of the trigger group as I had intended. Now it is a matter of cycling the pre-production version at least 100,000 times in each of 3 guns....
It will be thoroughly tested before it is available.
-Randy
The engineer in me approves. Nicely done. I wish all aftermarket suppliers followed your approach. We would end up with far less crap out there.
Robb Jensen
09-04-10, 12:27
Randy I like a very positive snappy reset.
Here's how my M&P Pro is set up for the trigger:
Apex sear and FP block.
Apex sear spring.
S&W FP block spring.
S&W Mass. compliant trigger return spring.
S&W standard trigger bar modified to accept the Mass. trigger spring.
Sear, FP block and trigger bar polished to a very high luster with Simichrome and a buffing wheel. The digital trigger scale says my trigger pull is 6lbs. It feels like a 3.5-4lb LTT (Langdon Tactical Technology) Beretta DA pull but with a shorter and more positive reset.
I hear people (99.9% of the time from worse shooters than me) say that you shouldn't shoot to reset.
I think trigger reset has a time and place. If I'm shooting tight shots say multiple mini poppers at 25yds+ I'm shooting to reset. If I'm shooting wide open IPSC metric targets at 5yds I'll be trigger slapping. Many of the USPSA GMs I talk to including Todd Jarrett say 'just shoot' since your mind can only really focus well on one thing at a time. If you're thinking about how you're using the trigger then other things like sight alignment, movement etc will be poor. "Just shoot" is the advise align the sights where you want the target hit and pull the trigger, it should be a subconscious with no thought other than shoot that.
John_Wayne777
09-04-10, 14:20
Good question. We haven't thought that far ahead. My first thought is it should be sold independently of the action enhancement kits.
From some of the posts, it sounds like it should not be. Some do not feel it is necessary, at least that is the impression I get from reading through the threads.
It would probably make sense to offer it as an add-on option to the kit, at least at first. I'm willing to bet that you'll see probably the majority of kits going out the door with the new reset doohickey.
John_Wayne777
09-04-10, 14:26
Thanks again guys.
I try to shut up and listen once in a while. I get a lot of needed information from your observations and criticisms. It helps me make better parts.
-Randy
It's refreshing to hear someone interested in selling something actually consulting with the intended buyers to figure out how to best meet the need/desires of the customers. That's been one of the goals behind M4C's existence all along...it's just a darn shame so few companies actually take advantage of the opportunity.
Sorry, something went wacky when I tried to post originally...
I hear people (99.9% of the time from worse shooters than me) say that you shouldn't shoot to reset.
I think trigger reset has a time and place. If I'm shooting tight shots say multiple mini poppers at 25yds+ I'm shooting to reset. If I'm shooting wide open IPSC metric targets at 5yds I'll be trigger slapping. Many of the USPSA GMs I talk to including Todd Jarrett say 'just shoot' since your mind can only really focus well on one thing at a time. If you're thinking about how you're using the trigger then other things like sight alignment, movement etc will be poor. "Just shoot" is the advise align the sights where you want the target hit and pull the trigger, it should be a subconscious with no thought other than shoot that.
I agree. The difficulty of the shot dictates trigger management for me.
All the GMs I know have worked on follow through to the point they can modulate trigger pressure without conscious thought. For me, I am still in the infant phase...
Bruce Gray is a phenomenal instructor/gunsmith/GM. His Practical Fundamentals course is perhaps one of the finest I have ever been to. He states that everyone has the ability to shoot tiny little groups and even hit the A zone of an IPSC target at speed on demand. Everyone can align the sights, focus on the front sight and break the shot. Where people tend to fall apart is in how they (me included) interact with the trigger. The best sight picture in the world doesn't help if you are pressing on a 4 lb trigger with 24 lbs of force...
I also like a strong sense of reset when I need precision. It gives me an indication of where in the trigger stroke I should be finessing the trigger so as not to upset my sight alignment and picture. Otherwise I would still be slapping the trigger like Bobby slaps Whitney at 25 yd shots...
Chris Rhines
09-06-10, 11:36
I personally like having a very distinct trigger link. That said, I think that with a little practice, anyone can learn to manage the stock M&P trigger very well.
I really want to try the reset mechanism with the Competition AEK in my M&P9 Pro...
-C
G34Shooter
09-07-10, 15:33
Link to video of Apex Tactical's RAM (Reset Assist Mechanism)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT5bGGxlfRU
varoadking
09-07-10, 18:14
More like 5 by the looks of it...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v22/varoadking/anim_rofl2.gif
varoadking
09-07-10, 18:19
How important is a tactile trigger reset to you?
Don't own an M&P and likely never will, but being an old Model 39 fan, reset is everything to me. I always shoot to reset...
I'm new to this thread, but so far I only have 300 rounds of WWB through each of my M&Ps. Both of them have (most of) the Apex DCAEK kits installed. Trigger reset has never even crossed my mind while shooting, and I've never felt the trigger was lacking in any way.
G34Shooter
09-22-10, 23:00
RAM video 2 :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SLsA7lnUus
Serpico1985
09-22-10, 23:26
RAM video 2 :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SLsA7lnUus
Holy $hit balls...
If it gives a more "tactile" reset then I would buy one in a heart beat!
Don't own an M&P and likely never will, but being an old Model 39 fan, reset is everything to me. I always shoot to reset...
Sad to hear that. You're missing out on a fine handgun.
Feel it, yes. Hear it... meh. I guess you can't have one without the other. If you make this, I'll buy it.
Please let me know what you think!
-Randy.
Stock reset is fine with me.
Mr. Lee:
It is refreshing to see success for a true expert in his field of endeavor.
Your products are paradigm changing. Your results are speaking for themselves. Your work to date is THE reason I will puchase an M&P in the future.
David Barnes
www.vcdgrips.com
I received my M&P 9 from G&R yesterday. Ordered it setup with the Apex sear and striker block, installed and polished (nice job, G&R!). I also ordered the competition striker spring. I won't be able to get to the range until Saturday, but I can say that a little dry firing reveals a very nice trigger indeed. I never expected the like from a striker fired pistol, certainly, but this trigger is impressive in its own right. The reset is subtle, so I can see how people coming from the Glock platform will be looking for increased "clickitivity." While I think the reset is short enough that you'd almost have to be trying to short stroke the trigger to miss it, I'm impressed enough with the Apex fire control parts I have right now, that I'm definitely looking forward to trying out the RAM.
Mr. Lee:
It is refreshing to see success for a true expert in his field of endeavor.
Your products are paradigm changing. Your results are speaking for themselves. Your work to date is THE reason I will puchase an M&P in the future.
David Barnes
www.vcdgrips.com
Wow. Thank you David. Your comments are greatly appreciated.
The video link that G34Shooter provided shows the significance of the RAM should your trigger return spring break. In a stock M&P, if the trigger spring breaks there is no longer any force being applied to the trigger. This means that the trigger will not return forward nor can the trigger bar reliably re-engage the sear even if the trigger is manually pushed forward. In a self defense/le/military situation, the gun is essentially inoperable.
With the RAM installed, as long as you can advance the trigger forward, the pistol will reliably fire. We feel that this secondary benefit might be of importance to some.
-Randy
SWATcop556
09-23-10, 10:23
The ability to still fire the weapon even with a broken trigger spring is a nice benefit. I'll be putting one of these on my training M&P and if it's like everything else APEX has put out it will go on my duty and social guns as well. Looks great Randy. Any ETA on availability?
Very cool Randy and can't wait to get these in stock!
C4
The ability to still fire tge weapon even with a broken trigger spring is a nice benefit. I'll be putting one of these on my training M&P and if it's like everything else APEX has put out it will go on my duty and social guns as well. Looks great Randy. Any ETA on availability?
Our target release date is November 1st.
If anyone is at the IALEFI conference in Bend, OR this upcoming week, instructor Jerry Jones will have the prototype RAM in his teaching gun. I believe he is teaching the low light shooting module and practical fundamentals module along with my friend Bruce Gray at that conference.
-Randy
SWATcop556
09-23-10, 10:46
Our target release date is November 1st.
Just a few days before my Bday. Looks like I know where some of that $$$ from the in laws is going.
To the other end, I also believe that if you are running the trigger at speed, you probably won't be able to detect the reset point because your trigger finger is already slightly forward of the reset point as the slide goes to battery. That said, if I am doing precision shooting and am trying to slow down between shots, the sensation or sound of reset gives me a good reference point of when to take up any slack.
Agreed! When I'm shooting a run and gun stage in a 3 gun match, I never hear or feel the reset on my Glock, but when more trigger control is required due to a smaller site picture, I do feel the reset and it helps me (at least psychologically :D)!
Makes no difference to me whatsoever. We switched issued sidearm from the USP40 to the MP40 a few years ago, and was very disappointed at the time because the USP's had done very well. But I shoot the MP much better than the USP, and I was no slouch wiith it either.
That said, when gunning fast, notice no problem with the lack of tactile feel or auditory whateveryoucallit. I've come to think these only make a difference when you are at the gun counter, contemplating the buy, and you are anguishing over this nonsense you read on the internet.
$.02 spent!
PS, I carry a PRO or a HK45c off duty out of pure habit. I have no problem with the thought of carrying a MP of any caliber to protect my family.
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