View Full Version : Rock River Evaluation
I picked up a Rock River that is a standard M4 configuration with free float barrel. I took it to the range to sight in with my Colt 6940. I noticed the RR had a tight gritty trigger pull and did not shoot nearly as smooth as the Colt. I really do not care for the RR 2 stage trigger group. It even appears cheap looking compared to the Colt or even my Bushmaster.
The one thing I will say about the RR is the upper and lower assemblies are tight! The lower receiver is heavy duty, not doubt. Really the RR is probably no better or worse quality than any other M4 or the Colt, except for that trigger group. The gun functioned flawlessly. No jams, and persistent groupings.
Anyone with their own expereince or thoughts on this rifle?
just out of curiosity.
dont take this the wrong way, but...
what are your qualifications ?
I ask because most people dont compare RRA with Colts and you havent mentioned any of the staking issues to start with...
I picked up a Rock River that is a standard M4 configuration with free float barrel. I took it to the range to sight in with my Colt 6940. I noticed the RR had a tight gritty trigger pull and did not shoot nearly as smooth as the Colt. I really do not care for the RR 2 stage trigger group. It even appears cheap looking compared to the Colt or even my Bushmaster.
The one thing I will say about the RR is the upper and lower assemblies are tight! The lower receiver is heavy duty, not doubt. Really the RR is probably no better or worse quality than any other M4 or the Colt, except for that trigger group. The gun functioned flawlessly. No jams, and persistent groupings.
Anyone with their own expereince or thoughts on this rifle?
RRA, and BM are worse quality than colt. PERIOD. Look around the site, there are answers, photos and facts abound to show you exactly why.
Just the QC of Colt alone blows RRa and BM out of the water; and then we get into parts, materials, and proper adherence to the TDP. RRa and BM are bottm tier. Colt is top tier. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Hyundai.
just out of curiosity.
dont take this the wrong way, but...
what are your qualifications ?
I ask because most people dont compare RRA with Colts and you havent mentioned any of the staking issues to start with...
My thoughts upon reading the thread title.
Eurodriver
09-02-10, 11:46
Why do so many people care about the fit between the upper and lower receiver when it has absolutely no influence on accuracy or reliability?
Well, I really don't care what other 'PEOPLE' do. I started this posting to express the differences I noticed between two rifles. I am not a sheep and don't follow cliques or trends of the masses. I just call things as I see them.
If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles nationwide?
My Colt 6940 is my duty rifle that I carry all the time. Myh qualifications have nothing to do with the comparison of two rifles on the range! If I had two hours and time to write a book, I would tell you my 'QUALIFICATIONS'. But that is mute. I'm not a bragger!
I don't know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is, I was just comparing the two rifles and the differences I noticed and seeking feedback. Maybe some feedback on WHY the RR and Bushmaster are inferior with some factual information attached. How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles???? :suicide2:
I picked up a Rock River that is a standard M4 configuration with free float barrel. I took it to the range to sight in with my Colt 6940. I noticed the RR had a tight gritty trigger pull and did not shoot nearly as smooth as the Colt. I really do not care for the RR 2 stage trigger group. It even appears cheap looking compared to the Colt or even my Bushmaster.
The one thing I will say about the RR is the upper and lower assemblies are tight! The lower receiver is heavy duty, not doubt. Really the RR is probably no better or worse quality than any other M4 or the Colt, except for that trigger group. The gun functioned flawlessly. No jams, and persistent groupings.
Anyone with their own expereince or thoughts on this rifle?
RR AR's and Colt shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence. No part of the RRA AR meets the Govt Spec for a fighting weapon.
So no, your RRA is NOT equal to your Colt.
C4
use the search function.:dance3:
seriously, it will save you lots of grief around here...
I think mostly it is a regurgitation of bad gun store advice/salesmanship. And most people not knowing any better.
Your usual generic Gunstore owner/salesman:
"See how tight this upper and lower fit, that is nice, you don't get that with a colt; only with these top of the line RRA's and BM's that the government issues there special ops forces accross the pond..."
I would venture to guess that gunstores make more off of a $1,000.00 RRA (Price mark-up) than they do off of a $1,200.00 Colt. Just a guess.
I've heard quite a few salesman use the "Look how tight..." this or that fits line versus this manufacturer to sell something, not just guns by any means.
:shout: you haven't been on M4C for very long, have you?
Read "The Chart" and the description of each part of the rifle Rob_S was so nice to compile, and you will see why
Well, I really don't care what other 'PEOPLE' do. I started this posting to express the differences I noticed between two rifles. I am not a sheep and don't follow cliques or trends of the masses. I just call things as I see them.
If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles nationwide?
My Colt 6940 is my duty rifle that I carry all the time. Myh qualifications have nothing to do with the comparison of two rifles on the range! If I had two hours and time to write a book, I would tell you my 'QUALIFICATIONS'. But that is mute. I'm not a bragger!
I don't know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is, I was just comparing the two rifles and the differences I noticed and seeking feedback. Maybe some feedback on WHY the RR and Bushmaster are inferior with some factual information attached. How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles???? :suicide2:
Ignorance is never an excuse...
If you take about ten seeconds searching this site you will have a plethora of threads to sho wyou exactly why they are inferior and exactly how to make them better.
THey sell so many rifles nation wide for the same reason you mentioned above; being ignorance of consumers.
You might get a few RRa's and BM's that shoot well, but that doesn't change the fact they are not built to TDP spec; which is the Lowest acceptable standards for a fighting rifle.
Lot' sof people buy Hyundais, they drive okay, get ffrom point A to point B; but I wouldn't be compring them to a Ferrari or a bugatti any time soon...
Be proactive and go find out why that RRA is inferior...
Here's a first link for you to start with:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
William B.
09-02-10, 11:59
How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles???? :suicide2:
You could start by ensuring that your castle nut and carrier key are properly staked and then maybe saving up for a quality replacement BCG from a company like BCM, LMT, Colt, etc.
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-Bolt-Carrier-Group-MPI-Auto-M16-p/bcm%20bolt%20carrier%20group%20auto%20mp.htm
http://www.specializedarmament.com/catalog/Colt_AR_15_Parts-4-0.html
http://www.lewismachine.net/product.php?p=24&cid=7&session=73955021450c9f1f9d8538fbb943fec3
Well, I really don't care what other 'PEOPLE' do. I started this posting to express the differences I noticed between two rifles. I am not a sheep and don't follow cliques or trends of the masses. I just call things as I see them.
Great, but do you know what you don't know? Meaning, do you have the skill and knowledge to understand the differences between AR's, know what the Govt spec calls out (TDP) and how it applies to AR's?
If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles nationwide?
"Flawlessly." My favorite word. Just as an FYI, they do not. Yes, you might have one or two that runs well, but that isn't the norm (especially if you start to take those guns to carbine schools where they will be shot a lot more and pushed hard).
The reason why they sell so many is that BM and RRA spend TRUCK LOADS of money on advertising. They also tend to have no competition in the gun shops across this country. When is the last time you saw a DD, LMT, Colt BCM, Noveske in your local shops?
My Colt 6940 is my duty rifle that I carry all the time. Myh qualifications have nothing to do with the comparison of two rifles on the range! If I had two hours and time to write a book, I would tell you my 'QUALIFICATIONS'. But that is mute. I'm not a bragger!
There are two groups of people when talking about firearms. Trigger pullers and armorer's. Trigger pullers generally know NOTHING about the mechanics of the weapon, the technical specs and what is a quality part (and what is not).
So when people are asking you for your background, it is to see if you are qualified to say one is better than the other.
I don't know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is, I was just comparing the two rifles and the differences I noticed and seeking feedback. Maybe some feedback on WHY the RR and Bushmaster are inferior with some factual information attached. How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles???? :suicide2:
Then you do not know what you don't know and I would stop posting on the net that one AR is better than another because it shoots a type group or is "flawless."
For starters: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532&highlight=bushmaster
Then read all the tacked technical based threads stickied at the top of these forums.
C4
Ok, so we established that i am an uneducated trigger puller!
Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?
My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.
When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!
If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles worldwide? :suicide2:
A given Bushmaster may shoot as well and be as reliable as a given Colt, but the odds are against it. Bushmaster cuts more corners in the construction and materials and doesn't emphasize quality control to the extent that Colt does. Thus, they can sell them cheaper.
William B.
09-02-10, 12:20
When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!
Not if yours is the turd that won't fire because it slipped through the poor QC measures.
Ok, so we established that i am an uneducated trigger puller!
We knew this with your first post (FYI).
Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?
Common question. Always give guns purchased by a federal agency the stink eye (before deciding to buy them). Especially long guns.
RRA basically GAVE the DEA the guns (not a cheap deal, but gave them to them). This is a hard carrot for them to pass up. On RRA's part, this was a VERY smart marketing move.
My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.
I think you would be suprised that it has not passed any test (or any test of any value). Commonly, guns that are intersting, cool looking, "flawless" or cheap end up on these authorized lists.
Since LE generally ONLY SHOOT THEIR AR's ONCE A YEAR (about 60 + rounds for quals), any AR will pass this test. This is a poor way to decide if an AR is quality or not.
When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!
I can kill you with a rock, a slingshot, an arrow, my car, etc.
The question you have to ask yourself is this one; how much is your life worth? Is it worth the price of one of the lessor quality AR's or a properly built AR?
For me, the answer is easy. YMMV.
C4
Ok, so we established that i am an uneducated trigger puller!
Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?
My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.
When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!
You can definitely kill just as easily with those. The issue is not with their ability to kill when they shoot a projectile. The issue is reliability when you life can/will be on the line. The gas key staking is a big issue. If you are in a fight and your gas key comes off of the BCG, you have a useless weapon.
RRA and BM are fine out of the box for a range gun. If you spend the time and money to upgrade them to the level of a Colt, you would save money by just buying a Colt. It really depends on what your intended use is. If my life is going to be on the line, then why cut some corners? The attention to details is often the thing that saves your life. RRA and BM have a history of not doing that. I think they can be fine weapons, but they are overpriced for what they are and I would just spend the extra $ to get a BCM, DD, LMT or Colt and be done with it. Just below them, I would go S&W and Spike's. Below them (by a good distance) I would go RRA and BM.
Ok, so we established that i am an uneducated trigger puller!
Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?
My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.
When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!
Read around some more and you will see that those agencies adopted them for lowest cost purposes and some of them have not functioned up to snuff and they are slowly getting rid of them, or improving them to be up to snuff with new parts.
So by your assesment only people in the armed forces (operators) on the battle field (Your front lawn could turn into a battle field in certain instances) have a need for a top tier gun that has the smallest percentage chance at a stoppage or malfunction; when you are in a life or death situation?
I whole heartedly disagree; every citizen should own a top tier rifle and/or pistol that they can defend their life and liberty with. Putting faith in a rifle to potentially save your life is a big deal; and I would never, repaet, never trust my life, or the lives of my family with any thing that had been proven to be inferior to other opfferings in the same price range or just a bit more expensive.
You know the DEA replaced those RRA rifles because of poor performance, correct? You are also aware that contract also included many more Colts and Sig rifles, and the RRA part was very small in comparison?
You knew that, correct?
You are correct and I agree. I am convinced that I am going to upgrade the RRA and Bushmaster with better bolt carrier and trigger groups! I will get them up to snuff since I already own them. Any advice on what I should specifically do to improve these rifles would be greatly appreciated.
You are correct and I agree. I am convinced that I am going to upgrade the RRA and Bushmaster with better bolt carrier and trigger groups! I will get them up to snuff since I already own them. Any advice on what I should specifically do to improve these rifles would be greatly appreciated.
Start here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?p=729902
Don't be afraid of the search button; it is your firend...
You are correct and I agree. I am convinced that I am going to upgrade the RRA and Bushmaster with better bolt carrier and trigger groups! I will get them up to snuff since I already own them. Any advice on what I should specifically do to improve these rifles would be greatly appreciated.
Make sure to read the BM LE dealer thread I posted.
C4
I believe he means changing out his RRA & BM BCG and his "trigger Groups" to better ones; not that he will see "Tighter Groups" if he changes the BCG. I may be wrong though...
I believe he means changing out his RRA & BM BCG and his "trigger Groups" to better ones; not that he will see "Tighter Groups" if he changes the BCG. I may be wrong though...
I think you are right. Went back and re-read it.
C4
Make sure to read the BM LE dealer thread I posted.
C4
So you don't have to search:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=13532
My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.
I am not trying to join the dogpile here, but if you could find out the criteria for being on that list and the testing that must be passed to meet that criteria I would very much be interested in hearing it.
a. I don't think he was posting as an authority, and asked for observations. I guess he got some.
b. There is some good advice here, and MUCH as a knowledge base. I do think folks should go easier on novices. (Like me).
c. Most people are teachable - especially if they show interest in the subject as posters do.
d. "Betting your life". This is quoted much. I know people here know this, but some things on the chart rate more than others in this area. A staked key is one for sure. Not so sure a milspec barrel is - it MAY last longer and shoot better, but it won't end your life like a gas key loosening. 1:9 will do fine with most 'consumer ammo' likely available to the average guy defeinding his home. RRA offers 1 MOA accuracy with BH ammo - OK. This is a nice feature if true. But, they should just go ahead and stake the gas key! My buddy has an RRA and the trigger is fantastic for what it is.
some things on the chart rate more than others in this area.
You are absolutely right. At one time the Chart assigned points to each feature so that it could be "scored". During the various iterations of that scoring different parts were weighted differently. Once the Explanation of Features was added the need for scoring, and certainly for weighted scoring, was removed as people could now educate themselves and make their own judgments.
There is an article in the magazine Combat Tactics which I believe may still be on news stands that addresses how to "fix" a substandard carbine, and it begins with the most critical and lowest cost and builds from there. Extractor, spring, and staking the key are the most important first steps because they are both the most critical components and also the most likely to fail.
Dean Caputo says that most M4-pattern carbines fail due to MEAL
Magazines
Extractors
Ammunition
Lube
a. I don't think he was posting as an authority, and asked for observations. I guess he got some.
b. There is some good advice here, and MUCH as a knowledge base. I do think folks should go easier on novices. (Like me).
c. Most people are teachable - especially if they show interest in the subject as posters do.
d. "Betting your life". This is quoted much. I know people here know this, but some things on the chart rate more than others in this area. A staked key is one for sure. Not so sure a milspec barrel is - it MAY last longer and shoot better, but it won't end your life like a gas key loosening. 1:9 will do fine with most 'consumer ammo' likely available to the average guy defeinding his home. RRA offers 1 MOA accuracy with BH ammo - OK. This is a nice feature if true. But, they should just go ahead and stake the gas key! My buddy has an RRA and the trigger is fantastic for what it is.
A. When you make a statement that brand X is equal to brand Y, you had better be able to tell us why.
B. The truth is a painful thing to hear. The errornet is a brutal place and not for the timid.
C. Yes.
D. A mil-spec barrel generally means a mil-spec chamber (556 NATO). This equates to reliability. 1/9 twist barrels typically have a chamber that MIGHT BE 556 NATO. They might also have a chamber that is closer to .223.
C4
a. I don't think he was posting as an authority, and asked for observations. I guess he got some.
b. There is some good advice here, and MUCH as a knowledge base. I do think folks should go easier on novices. (Like me).
c. Most people are teachable - especially if they show interest in the subject as posters do.
d. "Betting your life". This is quoted much. I know people here know this, but some things on the chart rate more than others in this area. A staked key is one for sure. Not so sure a milspec barrel is - it MAY last longer and shoot better, but it won't end your life like a gas key loosening. 1:9 will do fine with most 'consumer ammo' likely available to the average guy defeinding his home. RRA offers 1 MOA accuracy with BH ammo - OK. This is a nice feature if true. But, they should just go ahead and stake the gas key! My buddy has an RRA and the trigger is fantastic for what it is.
I don't see anyone "being hard" on this guy; just being forthright & honest. Facts are facts and they can be presented in many ways, no one was rude or pushy here, just stating facts and pointing the OP in the direction to find them for himself.
I think novices need to be less sensitive; no one is attacking you, just discussing rifles and the known facts abou them is all. I consider myself a novice, and when someone gives me data/facts that are counter to what I perceive to know as good evidence, or just something I have yet to hear about/research on my own; I can research that data. I do so and come to my own conclusion, what I do not do is take it personally that they have had more experience and have a broader knowledge base than I; I get very happy that I have such a great resource(s) to help me in my personal life with my decisions.
If you are going to get offended when someone tells you something that is:
a. True
b. Info that could help you save your life or someone elses if one finds them self in the wrong circumstance
and
c. failry easy to research and realize on your own if one is willing to put in the man hours
Than I think you need to take it easier on yourself. No one here is trying to offend, just educate and have an open dialogue.
Sláinte
My experiences with Rock River Arms complete AR platform rifles are the following....
Throughout the numerous Armorer, Instructor, and AR fighting courses I have attended over the past 10 years, I have seen more issues arise with Rock River Arms rifles than from any other manufacturer.
A few examples....
At a 40hr Patrol Rifle Instructor course I attended, a attendee brought a brand-new, never fired RRA M4 style carbine to the class that he had purchased the week prior in anticipation of the class. During the nomenclature/weapon maintenance portion of the class the instructor was going over weak points in the bolt carrier group of the platform, and was specifically discussing carrier key staking. While inspecting each of our rifles bolt carriers, it was discovered that the new RRA carbine's carrier key was not only un-staked, but it was soo loose that it was rattling around on-top of the carrier, loosely attached by the carrier key screws.
My PD purchased 25 brand-new Rock River Arms 16" mid-length carbines for our gang unit directly from RRA here in IL. Shortly after delivery it was discovered that 10 of the brand-new carbines were non-functional due to a bad batch of trigger groups. Again, these were department ordered rifles purchased directly from the RRA factory. They quickly corrected the issue with each rifle, but still this is unacceptable not only for a commercial market AR, but I think especially so for a batch of Department purchased AR's directly from the factory.
Over the past several years I have built-up complete rifles from parts, repaired and/or modified & accessorized dozens of AR platform rifles for friends & co-workers. The first time I worked on a complete factory new RRA carbine was when a friend purchased a new RRA M4 style carbine along with a bunch of new parts for me to install: LaRue free-float handguard, optics, sling attachments, etc. The first thing that grabbed my attention was the interface between the barrel extension and the upper receiver. It appeared as if they used a Dremel tool to cut extended feedramps into the receiver and barrel extension. Not only that, but they were so sloppy that they appeared to by cut by an 8 year old kid. After some research I came to find out that this was a standard "feature":rolleyes: on RRA's AR's.
Then I recently took in one of my bosses personal RRA 16" middies to do some work on. The factory installed Vortex flash hider would not come off after soaking it in Kroil (deep penetrating oil), heating it up with a torch, and applying 80ft/lbs of torque to it. And NO, it was not pinned in place. I gave up on it and returned it to him. I believe S.E. recommends applying less than 10ft/lbs of torque when installing a Vortex on your barrel. After giving it back to him to zero, I found that, yes, it shot nice tight groups, but it felt like it was so badly over-gassed due to the very sharp recoil impulse that was present with each round fired.
Prior to his, I had similar experiences with RRA AR's when attempting to install new sling plates on the receiver, and installing free-float handguards. They "Loc-Tite" the SHIT out of everything on the rifle that should be properly staked and/or torqued and NOT have thread lock applied to it. Some RRA's AR's come apart easier that others, some wont come apart at all, and some are literally falling apart straight out of the box. That is the main problem with RRA's quality control & assembly process.... There is NO standard that they follow.
In summary, my opinion is that if you are shopping for a basic carbine to do nothing more with than shoot paper with, then a RRA would work just fine for most. However, from my personal experience I would NEVER arm myself with a complete, factory built RRA AR platform rifle due to their absolute lack of any solid manufacturing standard, or quality control process.
Are they capable of producing a quality AR? Im sure, but far too often they do not.
If I were him, I'd get RRA to replace the trigger group - its their stuff. I might also ask them to properly stake the gas key and see what they say.
Then... get a good BCG anyway.
So the chart says 5.56 chamber on some to the right - its NOT? Thanks.
You are correct and I agree. I am convinced that I am going to upgrade the RRA and Bushmaster with better bolt carrier and trigger groups! I will get them up to snuff since I already own them. Any advice on what I should specifically do to improve these rifles would be greatly appreciated.
Actually, I was mistaken. The Bushmaster has a complete factory Colt upper reciever assembly, So this rifle is good to go!
The RRA Rifle will get the BCM bolt carrier group you all have talked about and then I will see how it goes from there. IT does have a free float barrel with a YHM rail forend. I think it will be ok once I make the corrections you all talk about.
I appreciate the feedback! I am learning much from you guys. Yeah some fellers seem a bit harsh, but that does not bug me. I want to know the facts and take corrective action. I can't sell the rifle because it is a Lae Enforcment model and I live in California!!! Plus I would not want to sell it without making it right anyway!
You know the DEA replaced those RRA rifles because of poor performance, correct? You are also aware that contract also included many more Colts and Sig rifles, and the RRA part was very small in comparison?
You knew that, correct?
Ooooh. Don't mention that. Some guy got all butt-hurt over on XDTalk when I mentioned that after he posted about how much better than Colt his RRA rifle was.
Heavy Metal
09-02-10, 17:21
But that is mute. I'm not a bragger!
You also can't correctly spell the word 'moot'.
Interesting thread and I commend you LRChops for being open minded and accepting the information and advice given here. These people know what they're talking about! Hopefully you can pass on this information to your fellow officers and you'll all benefit from intelligent upgrades to your carbines. No one likes to find out their equipment is lacking and that it will come out of their pocket to make it right but the good news is - you made it right before it got you hurt.
Many people leave here with their feelings hurt and you see them on other forums ridiculing "The Chart" and people here, and bragging their AR is "as good as..." They are the real losers, they did not listen to reason and sadly they may be the ones to get hurt.
BTW, I also upgraded my BCG recently. A DD from C4IGrant. Glad I did, even I can tell there is a difference!
Because some guy (competition shooter) wrote a book and said so. Apparently he was able to show about 1/4 MOA difference. :rolleyes:
Why do so many people care about the fit between the upper and lower receiver when it has absolutely no influence on accuracy or reliability?
Well, I really don't care what other 'PEOPLE' do. I started this posting to express the differences I noticed between two rifles. I am not a sheep and don't follow cliques or trends of the masses. I just call things as I see them.
If RR and Bushmaster are such crappy quality, why is it they function flawlessly, shoot tight groups, and sell so many rifles nationwide?
We aren't going down this road again. It has been discussed numerous times. The reason they sell so many firearms is because they price them cheap and they get pushed by dealers that don't know any better.
My Colt 6940 is my duty rifle that I carry all the time. Myh qualifications have nothing to do with the comparison of two rifles on the range! If I had two hours and time to write a book, I would tell you my 'QUALIFICATIONS'. But that is mute. I'm not a bragger!
I don't know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is, I was just comparing the two rifles and the differences I noticed and seeking feedback. Maybe some feedback on WHY the RR and Bushmaster are inferior with some factual information attached. How bout some specific ways to improve these rifles???? :suicide2:
If you don't know what staking is or what the TDP is you should so some homework. It is very important and will tell you what you are getting or not getting.
You do know that many decisions about gear are made by "bean counters". What they look for is the COST. If I were to plop down a Colt 6920 and a BM carbine on a table most of them wouldn't know the difference. Once the price is displayed they would overwhemingly choose the cheapest.
Least expensive bidder that can MEET THE STANDARDS they set forth. If you have someone who knows nothing about a particular weapon setting the standard you could end up with anything.
Ok, so we established that i am an uneducated trigger puller!
Why is it that the FBI and DEA ( and a multitude of other federal/state/local law enforcement agencies) have contracts with RRA and the agents carry these rifles? I know, Government goes with the least expensive contract bidder. right?
My department has RRA on the list as an authorized duty weapon. So I would imagine it has passed some testing that has shown the rifle to be at least acceptable in quality and performance.
When it comes down to the battle field, I concur that only a proven battle rifle should be deployed. HK and Colt are the grade for Operators. But I can also guarantee that I can kill just as easily with a RRA or Bushmaster!
RogerinTPA
09-02-10, 17:46
Interesting thread and I commend you LRChops for being open minded and accepting the information and advice given here. These people know what they're talking about! Hopefully you can pass on this information to your fellow officers and you'll all benefit from intelligent upgrades to your carbines. No one likes to find out their equipment is lacking and that it will come out of their pocket to make it right but the good news is - you made it right before it got you hurt.
Many people leave here with their feelings hurt and you see them on other forums ridiculing "The Chart" and people here, and bragging their AR is "as good as..." They are the real losers, they did not listen to reason and sadly they may be the ones to get hurt.
BTW, I also upgraded my BCG recently. A DD from C4IGrant. Glad I did, even I can tell there is a difference!
Agreed. You see that on many many AR-15 type forums. You will never convince people who are emotionally attached to their poor choice.
To the OP: The term "flawless" makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up when it is used. Take your pet AR to a carbine course where you'll shoot 1200-1500 rounds in 3 days, then come back and tell us about it's "flawlessness".
Your fellow LEOs may also find solace in reading the "Oh NO! I bought a BM/RRA/STAG before I knew better!" thread.
I don't know what 'Staking" issues are or TDP is,
there's your answer
CaptainDooley
09-02-10, 18:26
Testing standards were mentioned and my buddy just called to tell me this and I have to share.
My friend was at a range in Indiana with some other guys (he lives in the Chicagoland area) and a guy showed up with a box of 20 round PMAGs. He began loading a random number of rounds into the mags, firing from the hip until the mag was empty and then he would throw the mag in the nearby trashcan.
After a while my buddy asked him what the hell he was doing. He is a with a Sherrif's office and was conducting a "reliability test" before they approved the PMAGs for use.
My buddy made $1500 at the gun show that weekend selling PMAGs...
Bubba testing ain't all it's cracked up to be.
LRChops- Hope you live and learn on this issue. Please realize that simply b/c you are LE doesn't give your opinion any weight. Especially when you don't even know what staking or the TDP is. Your dept. putting RRA on the list of authorized weapons speaks about the person that authorized it, not the weapon. Don't get butt hurt, it sounds like you're already ahead of the curve in that you are at least receptive to becoming better educated. BTW, I've seen several RRA's have issues in high round count classes. Have never seen a Colt do so. Doesn't mean a Colt won't, but most would agree a Colt has a much lower probability of doing so. Take some time to read and ask questions and you'll learn much.:cool:
If I were him, I'd get RRA to replace the trigger group - its their stuff. I might also ask them to properly stake the gas key and see what they say.
Then... get a good BCG anyway.
So the chart says 5.56 chamber on some to the right - its NOT? Thanks.
All barrels with with a 1/9 twist barrel are more susceptible to having an out of spec chamber.
C4
I would recommend the following if you plan on carrying this rifle into harms way....
Replace the stock Bolt Carrier Group with an auto BCG from Bravo Co. and keep the original as a spare after having the gas key properly staked and replace the extractor spring/insert with a extractor upgrade kit from Bravo Co.
Replace your entire trigger group with one from one of Grant's (G&R Tactical) lower parts kits. I would also replace the safety selector, detent & spring & the magazine catch with the parts from Grants kit.
Remove (Good luck!), and replace the entire buffer tube/stock assembly and replace it with a MilSpec tube, and new buffer spring and a H buffer.
I would highly recommend taking, or sending it to someone who is certified to work on AR's. And if they "Armorer" or shop you take it to say something like "You dont need all this stuff switched out, Rock River is just as good as any Colt", Thank them for their time and walk out with your rifle. Do not engage them in a debate about the usefulness of the parts/mods I have listed above. It will be a complete waste of time.
If it were me, I would instead sell it (if at all possible) and buy a complete BCM 16" Middy upper receiver group to install on your Colt lower.
LRChops- Hope you live and learn on this issue. Please realize that simply b/c you are LE doesn't give your opinion any weight. Especially when you don't even know what staking or the TDP is. Your dept. putting RRA on the list of authorized weapons speaks about the person that authorized it, not the weapon. Don't get butt hurt, it sounds like you're already ahead of the curve in that you are at least receptive to becoming better educated. BTW, I've seen several RRA's have issues in high round count classes. Have never seen a Colt do so. Doesn't mean a Colt won't, but most would agree a Colt has a much lower probability of doing so. Take some time to read and ask questions and you'll learn much.:cool:
I didn't write this as an opinion base, I wrote this as an inquiry for feedback. Your statement about being an LE and not having any weight is simply rediculous!!!! I have been on Special Operations teams for years which has afforded me much experience in the use of my entry shotgun, M4, and pistols. So I think I do have the RIGHT to have an opinion, even though I really have not expressed much of one here!
Pissing contests here between those who posted in here and the OP isn't important.
To the OP, if you learned some new, and non-erroneous information, that's important. If it helped change your thinking and you're willing to make corrective actions, that's what matters the most. With that, it doesn't matter what others say or do at this point.
Enough chest thumping already:rolleyes: The OP admitted that he learned something new here, its time to move on and continue the learning process.
Sorry, I appologize for the brief rant. Yes, I have been hyperinjected with some great information and I want to thank everyone for putting me on the right path. I have a good idea of how I am going to turn an inadequate rifle (RRA) into a good reliable tool!
You have all been very helpful!
DaBears_85
09-03-10, 03:21
Trial by fire my friend.
Good luck with your new weapon.
always love a happy ending.
I am not trying to join the dogpile here, but if you could find out the criteria for being on that list and the testing that must be passed to meet that criteria I would very much be interested in hearing it.
I've never found a "written criteria" for our rifles either. I do know they chose DPMS as issue Patrol Carbines.
They also said that any personally owned rifles would have to be "inspected and approved".
I think they mostly have to be black and fire a 5.56 round.
Yes, I have been hyperinjected with some great information and I want to thank everyone for putting me on the right path. I have a good idea of how I am going to turn an inadequate rifle (RRA) into a good reliable tool!
You have all been very helpful!
That's a good attitude. I too was shocked when I first joined the forum. I wound up with a Double Star on a trade and thought I'd carry it on duty. I mean it's gotta be OK, they advertise on and sponsor Tactical Impact. Well after reading up and swallowing my pride, I made all the modifications that everyone here has recommended (haven't replaced the FCG yet) and feel a lots better about my rifle....but I'm still gonna get a mid-length BCM upper.
I had the same feeling you did about your RRA. If it had that many issues, I wouldn't have been comfortable selling it to someone else without addressing all of the suggested improvements. I made all the improvements, got a ton of spare parts and now I know exactly what type of set up I want for a dead reliable patrol rifle.
Ok, so I am becoming an instant novist expert because of you chaps!!
So this is what I am doing to the RRA. I am ordering a BCM bolt carrier group, BCM Gunfighter Charging handle, MIL SPEC Vltor Imod stock kit, Magpul trigger guard, and an H buffer (mid grade). It already has a YHM free float rail forend.
Now that I am familiar with the term 'staking' and have examined the bolt carrier group, this is what I found. For the stock RRA bolt carrier the gas key IS properly staked and the extractor spring is not the blue one, it is black. So I don't think this bolt carrier group is not all that bad, but it will serve as a backup. I will replace the extractor with one of the BMC spring upgrades.
I will also stake the castle nuts on both the RRA and BM. Mind you, my BM is really only the lower receiver. The upper is 100% Colt M4.
Looks like these rifles are simple to work on with the right tools. I have a machine shop, so I am good to go!!!!
My rifles will be good to go because of what I learned here! I am excited. Other than the internals, I am using all top quality products on the exterior as well (Gear Sector, Vickers, GGG, Magpul, Surefire, YHM, Aimpoint, and so on). I just dropped some fat cash on all this stuff.
If any of you guys ride motorcycle and have any questions, look me up, that is my forte!!! www.lillianrosechoppers.com ( Lillian Rose Choppers) It is a sideline to my LE job!
I said simply b/c you were LE. Being an LE does not confer upon someone instant status as a gun guru. Dropping it. Hope you enjoy your rifle.
Just be aware that RRA typically uses thread locker on their installed buffer tube/castle nut assemblies and they can be a real bitch to get off. I would first apply some good penetrating oil on the threads and let it soak in for at-least 24 hours. Then heat the castle nut up with a torch (the yellow Map/Pro torch works well for this application), and then try to wrench it off. Good luck!
Just be aware that RRA typically uses thread locker on their installed buffer tube/castle nut assemblies and they can be a real bitch to get off. I would first apply some good penetrating oil on the threads and let it soak in for at-least 24 hours. Then heat the castle nut up with a torch (the yellow Map/Pro torch works well for this application), and then try to wrench it off. Good luck!
Thanks Bro. I will be sure to follow these instructions.
6993,,,,????? I think I will just let you off easy and say, Thanks for your input! I'm sure everyone here found it helpful!;)
6993,,,,????? I think I will just let you off easy and say, Thanks for your input! I'm sure everyone here found it helpful!;)
Just for general info; are you insinuating that LEO (or mil) status infers upon one some kind of weapon expertise? If so, we have some other issues to work on, here.:rolleyes:
OneInchPunch
09-03-10, 21:55
i bought a bushmaster, and had the bcg staked after reading this. a gunsmith near me did it for almost nothing (good friend). i only have a just over 1500 rounds down range now and 900 of them were in about 5-7 hours in one day (bulk ammo from a distributor i use frequently). i havent had any problems with the rifle but did have problems with pos factory magazines now i only use p-mags and havent had any more trouble. im not sure why people get so pissed when someone buys something other than a "top tier" gun and has a good experience. stfu and say congratulations on being damn lucky. i understand that i have a good bushmaster and a exceptional rifle. for me and for many of the people i have come in contact with they have been absolutely reliable and i would any day put my rifle in a carbine school (i plan to next summer). i may change the bcg to a fail zero, because i have heard amazing things about those. like my dad always said "if it aint broke dont f*ck with it, and if it is broke then f*ck it and grab your pistol". im not the high trained expert like some of you may be but i am a shooter, and i am a guy who expects a lot from his guns. so far bushmaster firearms have not let me down. so for me great arms maker, great guns, and damn good shooters.
Just for general info; are you insinuating that LEO (or mil) status infers upon one some kind of weapon expertise? If so, we have some other issues to work on, here.:rolleyes:
If you read my original posting, You will surely see that I never claimed any WEAPONS Expertise, although I do have a great amount of knowledge in the operation of my duty weapons and the tactical use of those weapons in high stress real live fire situations!
There is no problem here, the only problem would be one that you choose to create!
i bought a bushmaster, and had the bcg staked after reading this. a gunsmith near me did it for almost nothing (good friend). i only have a just over 1500 rounds down range now and 900 of them were in about 5-7 hours in one day (bulk ammo from a distributor i use frequently). i havent had any problems with the rifle but did have problems with pos factory magazines now i only use p-mags and havent had any more trouble. im not sure why people get so pissed when someone buys something other than a "top tier" gun and has a good experience. stfu and say congratulations on being damn lucky. i understand that i have a good bushmaster and a exceptional rifle. for me and for many of the people i have come in contact with they have been absolutely reliable and i would any day put my rifle in a carbine school (i plan to next summer). i may change the bcg to a fail zero, because i have heard amazing things about those. like my dad always said "if it aint broke dont f*ck with it, and if it is broke then f*ck it and grab your pistol". im not the high trained expert like some of you may be but i am a shooter, and i am a guy who expects a lot from his guns. so far bushmaster firearms have not let me down. so for me great arms maker, great guns, and damn good shooters.
I tend to agree with you, although, I have had a couple U.S. Army Spec Ops Rangers staying at my house after returning home from the heat of battle and those guys said they would never deploy anything other than a Colt or H&K in the battlefield. They kinda cringed at my Bushmaster and RRA. I guess those guns are just decent civilian grade rifles. I like them just fine and look forward to doing some upgrades. I may have been brainwashed by some of the EXPERTS here who are scientific firearms engineers!!!!:D
OneInchPunch
09-03-10, 22:57
I tend to agree with you, although, I have had a couple U.S. Army Spec Ops Rangers staying at my house after returning home from the heat of battle and those guys said they would never deploy anything other than a Colt or H&K in the battlefield. They kinda cringed at my Bushmaster and RRA. I guess those guns are just decent civilian grade rifles. I like them just fine and look forward to doing some upgrades. I may have been brainwashed by some of the EXPERTS here who are scientific firearms engineers!!!!:D
yea, i ordered a bcm bcg, and a charging handle. also who cares if the castle nut is staked from the factory, most everybody i know uses a sling attachment point that replaces the end plate any way so wtf. i did stake mine though just so it wouldnt loosen up. as for the barrel, if i can shoot 3/4 inch at 100 yard (i do) then i am satisfied. i use m855 5.56x45 american eagle bulk ammo.
OneInchPunch
09-03-10, 23:00
oh and btw my good friend is us cavalry recon, and has seen some shit. he said "the colts we had were absolute shit, your rifle is so much nicer, and shoot much better. at least the round goes where you want it to."
i tend to believe the guys who shot the guns day in and day out. he did and he is in love with my bushmaster. cant wait for the new bcg!
Yeah, you see everyone has a different take on it. If I discussed my Army Ranger buds who would only use Colt or HK, I should have defined things better. They are actually Spec Ops soldiers who run highly classified missions in small detachments. They get to build their rifles and pistols exaclty how they want them, so they get all the highest quality everything!!! My bud Dirty did say that the H&K was the most reliable battle proven M4 available from the factory.
Spec Ops soldiers procure equipment that the average soldiers do not have an option with. I beleive all our soldiers who are engaged in battle should have the same option!
I have said it before and I will say it til the day I die, "God Bless our troops in battle". We surely owe them a strong debt of gratitude!
It doesn't matter if YOU switch the endplate. They don't build the guns for YOU, they build them for the masses. I know many who don't swap their out.
I could maybe understand if they would at least disclose to the public why they don't do it, but that it should be done. But that isn't the case.
yea, i ordered a bcm bcg, and a charging handle. also who cares if the castle nut is staked from the factory, most everybody i know uses a sling attachment point that replaces the end plate any way so wtf. i did stake mine though just so it wouldnt loosen up. as for the barrel, if i can shoot 3/4 inch at 100 yard (i do) then i am satisfied. i use m855 5.56x45 american eagle bulk ammo.
Sorry, I don't give any weight to that. I know many, many of persons who have been in the "shit" to include myself and I trust a Colt any day of the week.
Do you know that one of the number one issues with AR's are the magazines and most soldiers are still getting recycled crappy used aluminum mags?
I gave a class to some Army EOD types in Baghdad in 2009 and you should have seen the looks on their faces when I bombarded them. Most of them hadn't heard any of what I was telling them.
oh and btw my good friend is us cavalry recon, and has seen some shit. he said "the colts we had were absolute shit, your rifle is so much nicer, and shoot much better. at least the round goes where you want it to."
i tend to believe the guys who shot the guns day in and day out. he did and he is in love with my bushmaster. cant wait for the new bcg!
I beleive that the Colt is the Cue Degra! My duty weapon is a Colt 6940 and that gun is my best partner!
I had a bunch of the older IMI polymer magazines which functioned well, but they did not fit into my Bushmaster lower!?? That worried me! They worked fine in my two Colts (6940 and A2 Gov't Carbine).
justin_247
09-04-10, 04:38
oh and btw my good friend is us cavalry recon, and has seen some shit. he said "the colts we had were absolute shit, your rifle is so much nicer, and shoot much better. at least the round goes where you want it to."
i tend to believe the guys who shot the guns day in and day out. he did and he is in love with my bushmaster. cant wait for the new bcg!
This is a gigantic hock of crap. If he used his M-4 and it failed him, it most likely did because (a) he didn't lube it enough or (b) he used crappy mags. The idea that your Bushmaster is better than a Colt is absolutely ridiculous.
Given a choice, I'd always take the Colt to battle with me. Fortunately, last time I deployed we were issued several dozen Colts.
Suwannee Tim
09-04-10, 05:35
.....I have had a couple U.S. Army Spec Ops Rangers........ and those guys said they would never deploy anything other than a Colt or H&K in the battlefield.
So if RR and Bushmaster are such junk that no one in their right mind would take them onto a battlefield how do these guys know anything about them?
I may have been brainwashed by some of the EXPERTS here who are scientific firearms engineers!
I would like to see the CV of these "scientific firearms engineers". It is necessary to fire hundreds of thousands of shots in controlled tests to ascertain the reliability of a brand of firearm. No one here has the resources to do that. This stuff is all anecdotal.
I am new to ARs but I have been shooting for 40 years. I have heard this kind of talk for all of those years regarding every type, make and model of gun you can imagine. I have a very finely honed and precisely tuned skeptical meter and it never reads higher than when I am reading treads like this. I have an RR and a Bushmaster and so far they have worked flawlessly. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
Good for you. And it has been demonstrated over and over what the short comings are. All the facts are there. If you choose not believe then that's your prerogative. I honestly don't know why we continue to allow these posts. They all end up like train wrecks with someone screaming that their brand xxx has never failed and it's as good as......
On that note I am closing this because it's going nowhere. Unless someone can demonstrate a compelling need to keep it open.
So if RR and Bushmaster are such junk that no one in their right mind would take them onto a battlefield how do these guys know anything about them?
I would like to see the CV of these "scientific firearms engineers". It is necessary to fire hundreds of thousands of shots in controlled tests to ascertain the reliability of a brand of firearm. No one here has the resources to do that. This stuff is all anecdotal.
I am new to ARs but I have been shooting for 40 years. I have heard this kind of talk for all of those years regarding every type, make and model of gun you can imagine. I have a very finely honed and precisely tuned skeptical meter and it never reads higher than when I am reading treads like this. I have an RR and a Bushmaster and so far they have worked flawlessly. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
So if RR and Bushmaster are such junk that no one in their right mind would take them onto a battlefield how do these guys know anything about them?
I would like to see the CV of these "scientific firearms engineers". It is necessary to fire hundreds of thousands of shots in controlled tests to ascertain the reliability of a brand of firearm. No one here has the resources to do that. This stuff is all anecdotal.
No not really. We have instructors that see hundreds of thousands of rounds fired. Some of us talk to them and find out what is working and what is not.
Then you have gunsmiths (like us) that work on AR's and see the problem children that never make it to the errornet. We also test everything from gas port sizes to chambers to having bolts and barrels destructive tested to verify steel used. So no, we are not guessing as to which manufactures produce a quality AR and which ones don't.
I am new to ARs but I have been shooting for 40 years. I have heard this kind of talk for all of those years regarding every type, make and model of gun you can imagine. I have a very finely honed and precisely tuned skeptical meter and it never reads higher than when I am reading treads like this. I have an RR and a Bushmaster and so far they have worked flawlessly. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
My Grandfather was an Ohio State Trooper (retired) and then taught at the academy. He was a true shooter and outdoorsman. He shot his entire life (over 60yrs of gun knowledge). He wouldn't know what makes up a quality AR if his life depended on it.
Point being is that every dog has their day. Meaning that the worst made AR will run. Having spent the last 15+ years on errornet gun forums, I can tell you what I have learned about gun owners:
1. Most people lie about the number of rounds they actually fire.
2. Most people will go to the range, shoot 100-200rds a month (off a bench via slow fire) and proclaim to the world that their gun (or the manufacturer that makes their gun) is the best out there.
3. Most people are married to their purchases and believe that they are experts. So when they learn that they don't actually know anything about firearms (technically speaking) and have made a poor purchase, they become defensive and butthurt.
When trying to figure out if brand XYZ is a quality one, you first have to dive into the military reqs and spec (TDP). The TDP represents the LOWEST QUALITY STANDARD that is acceptable to the Military. So if the manufacturer does not meet this lowest of standards, then that should tell you all you need to know. RRA and BM do not meet the TDP standard (FYI).
Your AR's might run perfectly (in how you use them). I shoot at least 5K a year with 95% of those rounds fired in training classes. Would your AR's hold up for me year after year? Hard to say for certain, but based on the fact that every corner was cut in the manufacturing them, I bet they wouldn't.
The last thing I have learned (just recently) is that everyone’s needs are different. I require my AR's to be reliable, accurate and survive my early training schedule. Your reqs are most likely much different than mine and because of this, your BM and RRA will work just fine for you. Where the rub happens though is when you attempt to tell folks that either work in the firearms industry, build AR's for a living and or know all the .Gov SPEC's that your BM and RRA AR's are just as good as a Colt or BCM.
C4
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