Grouping to the left.

[AZ-Renegade]

I am a right handed shooter and I find that when firing polymer framed pistols my shots have a tendency to group slightly to the left. From what I have been taught, for me this is due to gripping the weapon too tightly with my right hand and not tight enough with my left. If I use a 70-30/60-40 grip my rounds stay closer to point of aim. I find this to be true with my service P2000 and my personal G17 and M&P40.

When attempting to simulate firing under stress, rather than use a 70-30 or 60-40 I will grip 100% with both hands. Hits are combat effective at 25 yards, but a few inches left.

I finally got sick of dealing with this and just drifted the rear and front sights on my P2000 so now my rounds are consistently point of aim.
(I ran it through a qualification after the sight adjustment to verify)

I do not recall having a problem with my grip on my old service issue sidearm (Beretta 96D) but ever since switching to the P2000 I have been fighting with it. I even tried using more trigger finger to see if I was pushing left while pressing the trigger.

I notice several (not all) right handed shooters at my station also have this problem. When I instruct them to grip more with their left than their right it appears to help them as well.

Why is this true for some right handed shooters and not for all? Is it ergonomics or poor technique?

Should one use and/or teach a 70-30 or 60-40 grip to these shooters when there is a high probability most shooters will grip the heck out of their pistol in a high stress situation?

Is it appropriate to adjust the sights for the shooter?

Thanks for your input.

[Gutshot John]

It's poor technique...trigger torque (i.e. sympathetic movement of your hand). Left handers will shoot right.

Proper dry fire is your best option. Also try and brace your off-hand thumb along the side of the pistol frame this should counteract the sympathetic movement.

[AZ-Renegade]

I assumed it was poor technique myself. Where I second guess myself is the fact that my groups are pretty tight and consistent throughout our course of fire.

I forgot to mention I shoot thumbs forward and with the P2000 my left thumb has to ride against the slide since the frame/dustcover forward of the slide catch is very narrow (that slide gets hot too!)

Is trigger torque more apparent with polymer pistols? I do not have this issue with my 1911 or P220ST.

[Gutshot John]

I assumed it was poor technique myself. Where I second guess myself is the fact that my groups are pretty tight and consistent throughout our course of fire.

That's an even bigger indicator. You're obviously consistent.


I forgot to mention I shoot thumbs forward and with the P2000 my left thumb has to ride against the slide since the frame/dustcover forward of the slide catch is very narrow (that slide gets hot too!)

Thumbs forward, are you sure? You shouldn't be able to see your thumbnail.

It shouldn't press against the slide, the frame is where you want to place that thumb. Roll your wrist farther forward...your thumb should be pointing at the target.


Is trigger torque more apparent with polymer pistols? I do not have this issue with my 1911 or P220ST.

It's more a function of DA/DAO. With a SA pull like the 1911 (or after the first shot on a DA/SA) the problem will be significantly less pronounced.

[AZ-Renegade]

The thumb is forward, but as I said on the slide, I can see a small portion of the surface area of my thumbnail so it is probably not a perfect thumbs forward.

As to consistency, I always thought poor technique would breed poor consistency.

Please understand I am not trying to argue your point, only to further my own knowledge and understanding as a firearms instructor.

[the_fallguy]

I've seen some shooters get great groups (albeit low and left) because they were very consistent in the way they anticipated recoil.

A "dummy and ball" drill would probably make it very apparent whether it is your trigger control or not (my guess is that it is).

[Gutshot John]

The thumb is forward, but as I said on the slide, I can see a small portion of the surface area of my thumbnail so it is probably not a perfect thumbs forward.

It's really not going to do you any good on the slide.


As to consistency, I always thought poor technique would breed poor consistency.

Not really, shooters can be consistently bad. They've ingrained a technique that doesn't work. Just like manufacturing standards...you can make a widget consistently and still have it be of poor quality.

[AZ-Renegade]

Looks like its ball and dummy at the range tomorrow!


What advantage does riding the frame over the slide give a shooter? Will the cycling of the slide "bump" the support hand?

With my Glock and M&P I stay on the frame but as I stated, there is minimal surface area on the frame on my H&K. I did try placing my thumb on the frame for a time, but then my trigger finger ends up contacting the base of my left thumb (at the palm). Perhaps I am using too much trigger finger. I will retry this again tomorrow.

[orionz06]

I have found my thumb riding the slide more and throwing them with uncanny consistency to the left. Dropping the thumb down took care of it.

[SWATcop556]

If you shoot with the first pad of your index finger (as you should) some people can have too little finger on the trigger which leads to a right to left trigger pull vs a straight back trigger press. This can also throws shots left. I have a bad habit of doing this when I get tired. It also seems to be more pronounced when shooting my Glocks. I find myself shooting with just enough finger on the trigger to activate the trigger safety.

Do a slow dry trigger press and watch your front sight. If you are pushing the gun to the left with your trigger finger then focus on a straight back trigger press. And dry fire, dry fire, dry fire.

And forget the 60/40 or 70/30 pistol grip bullshit. Trust me when shit gets real it will be 100/100.

[AZ-Renegade]

Went to the range today and tried out everyone's suggestions.

After drifting my sights back to center, I fired about 150 rounds slow fire, ball and dummy. Worked on placing the support thumb along the frame and pressing the trigger with slow, consistent pressure. Fired mostly from the 15 yard line and some at the 25 and 7.

All in all, I discovered that my grip seemed to be the issue. Groups were more centered and a bit tighter as well.

The majority of my dummy hammer falls were steady up till the end when fatigue began to set in due to pressing that horrible H&K LEM trigger! Those hammer falls where I did have anticipation were slight dips rather than movement to the left.

I'm going to continue working on ball and dummy for the next week or so as well as some dry firing in my spare time.

Thanks for the advice everyone!:cool:

[desertdisciple]

REALLY glad I found this thread!

can get pretty consistent center groupings w/ my 1911...
But my G23 always seems to "drift left".
Can't wait to try some of these suggestions!
:thank_you2: