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C4IGrant
07-04-07, 16:26
The good folks at BFG have released another version of their stellar Vickers sling. It utilizes a Cobra buckle that is generally used in life support applications and will NOT open under load!



C4


http://www.blueforcegear.com/prodImg/VCAS%20COBRA%20-%2003%20-%20800.jpg

http://www.blueforcegear.com/prodImg/VCAS%20COBRA%20-%2001%20-%20800.jpg

Lumpy196
07-04-07, 18:30
Suuuuure...After I get done buying VS's for all my long guns.

Razorhunter
07-04-07, 19:05
Grant,
What material is this buckle made of???
Thanks.

Hawkeye
07-04-07, 22:14
Suuuuure...After I get done buying VS's for all my long guns.

No doubt.

C4IGrant
07-05-07, 08:36
Grant,
What material is this buckle made of???
Thanks.

Believe it is steel. This is the most heavy duty buckle on the planet I believe.



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militarymoron
07-05-07, 09:31
the cobra buckles are made by austrialpin for paragliding. they're aluminum alloy with a brass release mechanism, and an advertised load capacity of 2000lbs.
i've had a 1" version on a low profile SOTECH rigger's belt for about 5 years, and john willis uses them for his cobra riggers belts. they're great buckles.
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/firstline.html#realsoe

Cold Zero
07-05-07, 09:51
Looks good. Price?:confused:

C4IGrant
07-05-07, 11:10
the cobra buckles are made by austrialpin for paragliding. they're aluminum alloy with a brass release mechanism, and an advertised load capacity of 2000lbs.
i've had a 1" version on a low profile SOTECH rigger's belt for about 5 years, and john willis uses them for his cobra riggers belts. they're great buckles.
http://www.militarymorons.com/equipment/firstline.html#realsoe


Boy if that is Alum. I am the Pope! :D It feels like no Alum. I have ever felt.


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C4IGrant
07-05-07, 11:10
Looks good. Price?:confused:

$89

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militarymoron
07-05-07, 11:22
Boy if that is Alum. I am the Pope! :D It feels like no Alum. I have ever felt.
C4

they advertise a steel version but i've never seen them available - all i've seen are the alum ones. do a magnet test on the male end to see if it's steel or alum - i'm curious.

C4IGrant
07-05-07, 11:25
they advertise a steel version but i've never seen them available - all i've seen are the alum ones. do a magnet test on the male end to see if it's steel or alum - i'm curious.


Did the magnet test and no go so it is not steel. It must have a lot of other components in it to make it NOT feel like Alum.


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militarymoron
07-05-07, 11:27
all hail the pope! :p

C4IGrant
07-05-07, 11:28
These are not up on the web site if anyone wants one: http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=BFGE


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C4IGrant
07-05-07, 11:28
all hail the pope! :p


Will they let a none Catholic be the Pope??? :D



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militarymoron
07-05-07, 15:07
you could always convert :D

DIYTactical
07-06-07, 09:51
Is it just me or does anyone think this is a bit overkill for a weapons sling?

Yeah the Cobra buckle is a cool looking/functioning buckle and there is always the trend towards overbuilt equipment. Maybe I am missing the application and Larry Vickers certainly has more experience than I will ever have in two lifetimes. Are we looking at a marketing "cool factor" here or actual utility?

Also as an aside, this buckle WILL release under load but you must press both ears of the release mechanism. It will not release if you press just one.

I stand corrected, I just read that it will not release. So this puzzles me even more, now i think it becomes a safety hazard.

DIYTactical
07-06-07, 10:09
Oh hell, the specs seem to contradict themselves:


Load Bearing Quick Release Buckles
Patented Engineering / Design
18kN / 3200lb / 63grams
High Strength Aluminum alloy
Brass Release Mechanism

CE Certified / ISO9001
Safe, Secure, Unparalled quality
Unlike the competition's (Ace Metal, Stubai, SF) quick releases, Austi Alpin Cobras will not release when under load or by accidental human error.

Description:
The unmatched quality and performance of our Patented "Cobra" buckle system. Compact, light, high load capacity, handy, versatile and safe.

-Click buckle for various width in harness straps
-Identical locking mechanism, therefore all parts are compatible.
-Two finger safety release, no one sided opening of lock when under load
-Guaranteed strength 18kN in ring
-For fixed and adjustable straps
-Fixed or Adjustable ends (Male or Female)
-Cobras are available in sizes 1" and 1 3/4" and in the following variations:
-Camouflage Foliage Green Finish
-Camouflage Desert Sand Finish
-All Black Matte Night Finish
-Hard Coat (TM) finishing for Salt Water / Corrosion Proof / High friction applications
-XL release clips option (for all sizes and variations)
-INOX steel (ie ANSI Z359) Cobra - available Summer '06 .

I'm eventually going to stock these so I should find out for sure.

militarymoron
07-06-07, 11:25
if grant doesn't check first, i'll take a look when i get home this evening with the cobra buckles i have to see if they can be released under load with two fingers. they're very cool buckles, but probably overkill for anything other than harness/rigger belt use. the standard ITW 1" SR buckle should be sufficient with it's 300 lb tensile strength. but if you like overbuilt and no chance of a plastic buckle breaking if you slam it between a car door or something, then the cobra's for you.

Dport
07-06-07, 12:33
Yeah the Cobra buckle is a cool looking/functioning buckle and there is always the trend towards overbuilt equipment. Maybe I am missing the application and Larry Vickers certainly has more experience than I will ever have in two lifetimes.

It is overkill for my needs. However, it seems that most marketing in gun accessories is playing on overkill. For instance, someone here wanted to mount a flashlight to his plastic handguards, but wasn't sure if the pieces of rail you buy and mount to the handguard via screws would be sturdy enough. I have some of them and beat the everloving crap out of them and haven't seen a durability issue. I guess, if I made a habit out of fast roping from a helo, I would be more concerned...

Anyway, if someone would like to finance a new sling by selling an old one, in oh say FDE, I would be more than happy to oblige.

C4IGrant
07-06-07, 12:43
Fastex type buckles do break so I don't think it is really all that much overkill.

In order for the buckle to release, you have to depress both tabs. You have to hit both tabs on a fastex buckle as well so there is no difference.

Being able to open the buckle by hitting just one side would be a big no no to me.



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Dport
07-06-07, 12:51
Fastex type buckles do break
No one is arguing that. But how often and under what type of use?

I think it is a matter of defining your personal requirements and then buying the gear that suits your needs best.

ETA: If you want the best and can afford to buy the best when it comes out all the time, more power to you! And if you can, let me know what you do for a living, so I can plan my second career!

Stephen_H
07-06-07, 12:55
If I spent a lot of time on little bird skids or fast roping I think this would be a VERY worth while investment. There have been recorded instances of weapons getting lost over training areas because a plastic side release buckle wasn't properly secured or gave way under load.

I very specific application to be sure, but if it wasn't the best it wouldn't be a Blue Force Gear product.

Stephen

Dport
07-06-07, 13:36
If I spent a lot of time on little bird skids or fast roping I think this would be a VERY worth while investment.
Stephen, I agree with you 100%.

C4IGrant
07-06-07, 13:37
No one is arguing that. But how often and under what type of use?

I think it is a matter of defining your personal requirements and then buying the gear that suits your needs best.

ETA: If you want the best and can afford to buy the best when it comes out all the time, more power to you! And if you can, let me know what you do for a living, so I can plan my second career!

I have seen them crack and break in a simple vanilla carbine class. I also see it on forums from time to time. I imagine that most are broken without having to jump out of an airplane.

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militarymoron
07-06-07, 15:27
i'm not surprised if you've seen SR buckles fail - there's a lot variety in manufacturers and materials, so who knows which ones failed. i've seen some plastic hardware used on slings that i didn't feel were the best quality available and wouldn't personally choose for sling hardware.
anyways, i agree - it all depend on a person's needs and what's at stake. nothing wrong with offering a sling that has the most fail-safe hardware for those who need or want it.

M4Guru
07-06-07, 16:31
I just take the fastex off completely. I have a QD rear loop if I really need to detatch the sling. If it's about to kill me or something I also have my Strider universal sling wrench on my vest...

Kisara
07-06-07, 17:02
I've seen various plastic buckles break, mostly by trunk lids, car doors and being stepped on when dismounted from the weapon. Jeff Gonzales told us in a class that he wasn't fond of plastic buckles on slings, and he's definitely been there and done that.

So far, under normal usage I've only broke a CQB Solutions one and the buckle on a "Maxpedition" gun case I won in a raffle. CQB (now aka Specter Gear) now uses a metal buckle in that application, and the Max I threw away. I would have probably thrown it away even if the buckle didn't break, but that's another story... Glad it was a freebie.


I also have my Strider universal sling wrench on my vest...
:D

Larry Vickers
07-06-07, 20:23
FYI the Cobra Vickers sling was developed for a specific group of US Military Spec Ops end users - they were already using some equipment that utllized the Cobra buckle and was familiar with it and wanted a version of my sling with said device

Ashley did a bang up job as usual and we decided to offer it as a version of the VCAS

For most applications the fastex is just fine but in any situation where the sling could be used for life support then the Cobra has merit

Cheers

Larry Vickers

www.vickerstactical.com

militarymoron
07-06-07, 20:37
just following up - i took a look at the cobra buckles i had, and both types (2" and 1") get harder to release the more load is put on them.
edited to add - by the way, have any of you had or seen a QD button swivel fail - pull out of the socket etc?

M4Guru
07-06-07, 22:07
just following up - i took a look at the cobra buckles i had, and both types (2" and 1") get harder to release the more load is put on them.
edited to add - by the way, have any of you had or seen a QD button swivel fail - pull out of the socket etc?

I had some QD buckles that were out of spec and were too long to lock into the socket. The ones I use now I have tried and they work fine. I recommend testing them thoroughly to make sure.

Kisara
07-06-07, 22:14
No- Not at the loop, nor at the button.

I've seen some of the smaller generic "HK style" hooks bind, bend, and sometimes pop open, but there seems to be a lot of variance between quality manufacturers and no-name Chinese junk. Never seen a snap-shackle break, but have seen their little release lanyards get pulled by accident at the most inopportune times.

I'm always trying out new items and seeing what works better for me. This Cobra buckle looks like an improvement, even if its a rarity that a plastic buckle would break. You have lots of options with the VCAS, unlike others where you get stuck with one way of manufacture.

Larry Vickers and Ashley Burnsed have really changed what a lot of people are using. Thanks sirs for your great design and work. I look back just a few years and can't imagine some of the slings I or others used.

militarymoron
07-06-07, 23:02
thanks for the replies fellas. other than cheap junk HK-style snap hooks, the problem with snap hooks (even the HK ones) opening accidentally lies with the size of the eyelet. the eyelets on HK weapons are very small, and don't allow the gate to fit into the eye, twist, and accidentally open and snap off the eyelet. most of the eyelets on M4 receiver end plates are too large - even twice the size of the HK eyelet, and allow the gate to pass through and snap open easily if twisted at the right angle. receiver end plate manufacturers should resize the size of the hole and make them smaller IMHO.

C4IGrant
07-07-07, 09:01
No- Not at the loop, nor at the button.

I've seen some of the smaller generic "HK style" hooks bind, bend, and sometimes pop open, but there seems to be a lot of variance between quality manufacturers and no-name Chinese junk. Never seen a snap-shackle break, but have seen their little release lanyards get pulled by accident at the most inopportune times.

I'm always trying out new items and seeing what works better for me. This Cobra buckle looks like an improvement, even if its a rarity that a plastic buckle would break. You have lots of options with the VCAS, unlike others where you get stuck with one way of manufacture.

Larry Vickers and Ashley Burnsed have really changed what a lot of people are using. Thanks sirs for your great design and work. I look back just a few years and can't imagine some of the slings I or others used.

Agree 100%. If it wasn't for the Vickers 2 point, I would still be running single points slings.



C4

DIYTactical
07-07-07, 11:29
I’m familiar with the buckle, I just used one in a prototype. In all honesty I didn’t test the release mechanism just simply added it at the request of the client. They knew what they wanted. I Just assumed that it would release under load when both ears were depressed. Not just one. This being a safety feature minimizing accidental release. Only after reading the specs online did I find the discrepancy. Still it’s an interesting piece of hardware.

When I see a quick release device in a system one of my assumptions is that is it a safety feature in the event you get hung up. If this buckle were not to release under load and for whatever reason you did not have access your ”webbing wrench” M4G mentioned you might have some problems. Although I can envision a scenario where if you were hung up you wouldn’t want it to release and plummet to a rather rough PLF. I can see both sides of the argument.

I’m just looking at a sling for a rifle that has a buckle rated at 2000 lbs, webbing that is probably at 4000 lbs and all metal hardware. Next question is the sling attachment points that are being used. If you are attaching this to a sling mount on a rail in the front and another that is on or between the buffer tube and lower receiver that can support some serious weight.

I like Stephen have also seen a SAW and a rifle or two burn in during FAST Rope training. This was before the trend to use Plastic hardware in sling construction and the failures were because of the webbing slipping through the sling slide and a metal snap hook failures, all things that could have been prevented through proper inspections in my opinion.

On the plastic hardware issue, like MM said not all plastic hardware is created equal. Material, age, temperature are going to play a big role. But even high quality buckles break. Here are a few we’ve broken doing informal unscientific testing. However even when crushed these buckles maintained some level of integrity. The two tan buckles are actually still pretty solid.

http://www.diytactical.com/images/srb1.JPG

http://www.diytactical.com/images/srb2.JPG

I’m not saying the folks and partners of BFG aren’t making outstanding products, but I’ve also never been one to give a company or person an automatic pass on every product they’ve ever produced based solely on past products they’ve sold or them being good people. I looked at this sling and while I think it is pretty cool and unique and undoubtedly well made, I thought to myself “other than novel selling point, what is this for?”

I also don’t want to take anything away from them, I hope they and their distributors sell thousands of them, I’m all for Capitalism.

DIYTactical
07-07-07, 11:30
thanks for the replies fellas. other than cheap junk HK-style snap hooks, the problem with snap hooks (even the HK ones) opening accidentally lies with the size of the eyelet. the eyelets on HK weapons are very small, and don't allow the gate to fit into the eye, twist, and accidentally open and snap off the eyelet. most of the eyelets on M4 receiver end plates are too large - even twice the size of the HK eyelet, and allow the gate to pass through and snap open easily if twisted at the right angle. receiver end plate manufacturers should resize the size of the hole and make them smaller IMHO.

MASH Hooks pretty much solve this problem, no mechanical gate to fail.

C4IGrant
07-07-07, 13:25
I’m familiar with the buckle, I just used one in a prototype. In all honesty I didn’t test the release mechanism just simply added it at the request of the client. They knew what they wanted. I Just assumed that it would release under load when both ears were depressed. Not just one. This being a safety feature minimizing accidental release. Only after reading the specs online did I find the discrepancy. Still it’s an interesting piece of hardware.

When I see a quick release device in a system one of my assumptions is that is it a safety feature in the event you get hung up. If this buckle were not to release under load and for whatever reason you did not have access your ”webbing wrench” M4G mentioned you might have some problems. Although I can envision a scenario where if you were hung up you wouldn’t want it to release and plummet to a rather rough PLF. I can see both sides of the argument.

I’m just looking at a sling for a rifle that has a buckle rated at 2000 lbs, webbing that is probably at 4000 lbs and all metal hardware. Next question is the sling attachment points that are being used. If you are attaching this to a sling mount on a rail in the front and another that is on or between the buffer tube and lower receiver that can support some serious weight.

I like Stephen have also seen a SAW and a rifle or two burn in during FAST Rope training. This was before the trend to use Plastic hardware in sling construction and the failures were because of the webbing slipping through the sling slide and a metal snap hook failures, all things that could have been prevented through proper inspections in my opinion.

On the plastic hardware issue, like MM said not all plastic hardware is created equal. Material, age, temperature are going to play a big role. But even high quality buckles break. Here are a few we’ve broken doing informal unscientific testing. However even when crushed these buckles maintained some level of integrity. The two tan buckles are actually still pretty solid.

I’m not saying the folks and partners of BFG aren’t making outstanding products, but I’ve also never been one to give a company or person an automatic pass on every product they’ve ever produced based solely on past products they’ve sold or them being good people. I looked at this sling and while I think it is pretty cool and unique and undoubtedly well made, I thought to myself “other than novel selling point, what is this for?”

I also don’t want to take anything away from them, I hope they and their distributors sell thousands of them, I’m all for Capitalism.


I generally do not give any company a free pass either. BFG is one that gets it though. Reason? Ashley works closely with LAV and knowing Larry, he won't sign off on a sub par product.



C4

Stickman
07-07-07, 21:50
Here are a couple more quick pictures of the VCAS-Cobra. The rail should be familiar to a few people as well, but thats another thread. Two solid pieces of equipment here.

http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Daniel%20Defense%2C%20Inc./IMG_3640%20Stick.jpg


http://stickman.rainierarms.com/galleries/Daniel%20Defense%2C%20Inc./IMG_3639%20Stick.jpg

BlueForceGear
07-08-07, 13:26
First off, thanks for the compliments to Larry and me. Supplying better equipment is my passion and it is gratifying to know that BFG is meeting needs and satisfying end users.

As Larry stated, the Cobra buckle was added at the request of a specific user group. For their use, the fact that the Cobra is designed to NOT release under body weight apparently was not a concern. Another user group (same branch) specified snap shackles which will release under load on their VCAS. Some users want breakaway, some want release under load, some want no release under load and some don’t want any release at all. I am constantly evaluating release systems for use on the VCAS and our other modular slings but ultimately the end user decides what we ship.

Regarding plastic releases, polymer hardware is everywhere in modern individual combat equipment. A lot of substandard plastic hardware is used on COTS items and some of those break in combat conditions. Metal also breaks. Here are the facts on BFG polymer hardware: We use the highest quality ITW Fastex hardware available. It is more expensive but it is the best we have found to date. BFG has over 100,000 pcs of this hardware in use and we have had three (3) broken buckles reported but only one (1) SR has actually been returned to us for examination. In that case, only one of the two tabs broke and the buckle still held the load. I’m pleasantly surprised that we don’t see more warranty calls given the use these slings are subjected to.

If I thought there was a problem with plastic on slings, I wouldn’t offer slings with plastic hardware. Plastic is here to stay and polymers will only continue to improve and Blue Force Gear will spare no expense to stay at current state of the art. If you don’t want plastic on your weapon sling, at least you have a choice with us. :D For unit qtys, we can incorporate any available hardware into our slings.

Best regards,

Ashley

M4arc
07-08-07, 13:31
Larry's website has been updated to include the new Cobra and M240 slings.

Vickers Tactical Signature Series (http://www.vickerstactical.com/SignatureSeries.htm)

BlueForceGear
07-08-07, 13:31
I looked at this sling and while I think it is pretty cool and unique and undoubtedly well made, I thought to myself “other than novel selling point, what is this for?”



It is for a US spec ops customer who wanted it that way. It is novel that we put in on our website since most unit special-request slings don't make it there. :)

Best,

Ashley

Patrick Aherne
07-08-07, 17:45
My BFG single-point has unbuckled at inopportune moments: behind the line at SWAT training, watching my 6721 go muzzle first into the dirt. The quick release buckles are convenient, but they do come with the caveat that you can't count on your rifle staying attached to your body, in my experience.

DIYTactical
07-09-07, 09:48
It is for a US spec ops customer who wanted it that way. It is novel that we put in on our website since most unit special-request slings don't make it there. :)

Best,

Ashley

Makes sense to me. We've had some rather unusual requests for items that would appear strange or unpractical to the general military. Like you mentioned those don't usually make it into the public domain for lack of a market.

On the ITW issue I agree they are the way to go. We stock them for a couple of reasons one being quality the other is unlike Duraflex they are willing to deal with and support small business. I've not has a duraflex product break on me whit normal use only when intentionally trying to break it.

Like I tried to explain earlier (maybe unsuccessfully) it wasn't a dig on you and your gear, more a scratching of the head kind of question.

jackinfl
07-09-07, 11:04
Ashley or DIY Tactical,
What does ITW mean? Is it a company or an acronym for something? Thanks.

and By the way and I know he does not need it. But I recommend and endorse BFG and Ashley he is truly a gentleman and a professional. I had the pleasure of shooting with him in an EAG Carbine class.

Stay Safe
Jack

militarymoron
07-09-07, 11:39
ITW = Illinois Tool Works, or ITW-Fastex - they make plastic and metal hardware/buckles. probably one of the most trusted and high quality hardware in industry.